TRANSCRIPT: 3 Tips for Setting & Tracking Goals with Students (feat. Sam Sicilia from Waverly Community Schools)
4:36PM Jan 20, +0000
Speakers:
Nikki
Sam
Keywords:
students
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grade
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struggle
early
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helping
grow
what's powerful about student setting goals and tracking their progress is that they do it right the workload should be on them not on you as the teacher. For you, it should be mostly set up, and then checking in on them guiding them along and that kind of thing. And, because if it's if if students are just doing this out of compliance, it's not going to be as effective for him, you know, like, it really needs to be, like, personalized.
I'm Nikki Herta. And this is bright stories of hope and innovation in Michigan classrooms, a podcast where we celebrate our state's educators and explore the future of learning. Bright is brought to you in part by Meemic insurance company, insuring the educational community for more than 70 years. teachers and school employees visit meemic.com/quote to see how much you can save. In today's episode of bright a chat with Sam Cecilia, an instructional coach and former classroom teacher for Waverly community schools, he shares his top three strategies for setting and tracking goals with students. Well, hi, Sam. Thanks for joining me today for the bright podcast. It's awesome to have you.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
We're trying a new thing this season. And I'm asking everybody, if they could tell me about the most interesting thing that they're doing in their position right now. And I was wondering what comes to mind for you,
right now, I'm an instructional coach. But I've been in the classroom for many years. And so I'm working with teachers and, you know, trying to, like help students take ownership of their learning. It's, it's something that I was a struggle before the pandemic, but like, through the pandemic, it became very, I feel like CDs became very passive, you know, it was just like schools or something that happens and, and so, you know, something that that worked well, for me in the past was doing great tracking, you know, and goal setting and, and getting students to do that not not just have the grade be something that just shows up on a screen, but like, looking at it, documenting it, and then and then graphing it. That's the most interesting thing I'm trying to help. I'm helping some teachers right now. Start that and in their classrooms with their students,
can you tell me about a moment that you vividly remember, just falling or re falling in love with education?
Well, when I wanted when I wanted to go into education, or once I was already in education,
I guess you could say, you know, when you were in education, they affirmed that choice, right?
Yeah. Cuz I think I mean, early on, you know, you just try to stay above water, you know, and so it was like, I never thought like, Man, I hate teaching. There were times where I was like, Man, I can't wait for summer to come, you know, like, I can't wait for to not have this group, you know, on a daily basis. But, you know, over time, and over time I, what I what I learned about myself was that so much of you so much is out of your control. But what happens in your classroom is in your control. And so like, I felt like that less and less as I got more experienced, which I guess probably makes sense. But, you know, a lot of teachers will say, like, oh, this group is a tough group. And I was like, I always started to get to these points where some teachers would say, man, we had a really, really rough group that year. And I was like, are they? They were? They seem okay. I don't know. Like, so like, suddenly the the groups that, like, people were other people were struggling with I was doing okay, no, it wasn't it. It wasn't like, I didn't have my struggles, but they didn't seem like, you know, more difficult than others. And it's, I think that was a personal growth there. Right around the same time, there was a lot of talk of our students really need some more guidance and some more support. Social emotionally. And so a couple of teachers, myself included, push to do like building why like a mentoring program. And this is actually really where that grade tracking that we're talking about really came from. It wasn't you know, we did in class grading, like gray tracking for specific skills and stuff. But like, the, the stuff that I really found success with was really tied to mentoring. So, alright, I'm going to meet with students like before we meet, why don't you reflect on where you're at? And then we'll, we'll talk about where you're at what your goals are. And like you said, What does it take to to reach that goal? Like what do you need to do and a lot of that was guiding the student through it, you know, like they especially, you know, I'd be talking to him about classes that weren't my own, like I would have these are students that I had for English, but then they had other teachers and they were like my homeroom group, right? But we were in team so like, it was all soon as I also have English, but we'd be talking about their other classes and I don't know what's going on in the class. So like, I'm just kind of helping them like, what does it take? Like? What did you know? What is? What what's really bringing your grade down? Just just having the conversations to help the student? Look at that grade and make it something more than just a random letter, you know, like are? Well, it's what is it actually reflecting. And if you want a different grade, what does it take to, to achieve that? Now, when we talked about my own class, I could obviously get more specific. But when I started mentoring students, it was just it kind of clicked for me a little bit how much we can teach the best lesson in the world. But if they're not in the right mindset, to receive it, then it's, it's a lot of like, wasted energy, wasted effort. And so I always saw that as the mentoring part is kind of an investment to like, if we could get students to buy in a little bit to the system, and to feel like they can have some success, then we're going to have more success and everything else that we do. And so I didn't mind putting the time and the effort into it. I know, for some people it was, it was a struggle, because it was, you know, it feels like extra work sometimes. But it's, like I said, it was kind of an investment. So I think when when I started doing that, and getting to know some of my students on a different level than I had before, you know, like scheduling time, alright, we're gonna, we're gonna sit down for 10 minutes, just just meet you, you know, in the in the, you know, corner of the room, while everybody else is, you know, working independently, we're gonna have a conversation, and we're going to do that, you know, originally, I want to do it once a week, and then turn it over once every two or three weeks. But, but still, it was better than I wasn't doing that at all before. So yeah, that really, I would say, reinvigorated me, I don't know if that matches that description of falling in love with teaching.
I hear what you're saying about how it's, it's different, you know, when you get a grade versus when you achieve a goal. That's kind of like a different experience for the student. Like, it motivates them differently. Is it? Am I getting that? Right? And could you say more about that?
Yeah, I think, you know, when I say like, they experience school with, you know, as a passive thing. It's just something that happens, like it's happening around them. And there's a, there's a underlying, you know, sense of powerlessness there that, like, it's not, it's not a great I, you know, that I earned, it's a grade my teacher gave me, and just changing that mindset a little bit to like, you know, the actions that you take, as a student, affect your grade. I mean, it sounds obvious, but but based on, you know, behaviors you see from students, clearly, they don't, many students do truly believe that they just something that happens, you know, and so, giving them some tools to, to visualize, like, their progress. I think that's really helpful. And there's a lot of research that backs that up, you know, if you look at, like Robert Marzano books, they talk a lot about, you know, student, tracking their own progress and things like that. And that's where that's where that a lot of that came from. For me, we started looking at, you know, standards based grading and things like that a few years ago, and we're, maybe you're never fully there, you know, but that was something that, whether you do a Sanders race or not, you can have students track their grades and it and you can get some of those benefits of students taking ownership of, of that grade, you know, and, and understanding that it's a reflection of their progress, and not just, you know, points, if you will, I've always done goals in my classroom, but it used to be just kind of like, what do you what do you feel like, you know, like, oh, what's your goal for this class? I want to get an A, okay. What does that actually mean? You know, and, and so, giving that a little more context and, and giving them more information to go by, like, alright, like, here's where you're at now. Where do you want to get to? Or where do you want to stay at?
Can you give me an example. Like, if you can't think of one from like, a real student off the top of your head, you could use a hypothetical, but just like, What is an example of a goal that you've seen, the kind of goal that motivates a student, that they can feel that progress,
a better future most of my career? And so yeah, every no matter what grade level your teacher, your teacher theme, like theme is always there, like, and they, and they never quite fully grasp it. Like, it's, you know, I taught high school, it still sort of struggled with it. But, you know, obviously, the younger guys saw the board, it's like, alright, well, you know, I can determine a theme like, Can Can you do that? Do you think your Do you think you can do that easily? Can you do that some of the time, you know, and I'm giving them some kind of baseline data, you know, like, like a pretest. And then, you know, setting a goal for the having them set a goal for like, alright, but like, how much growth we want to see here. You know, usually their goal is to, you know, show mastery, but there's some students that you know, they really struggle if they wanted to set a goal for, you know, getting part or most of the way to mastery, that would that would be fine, too. So, I mean, I think I had a lot of students that it just became the norm for us to, to kind of pretest each standard, or each learning target, and then set a goal based around that and track their progress. So I think it worked well, for for actually, a lot of students, I mean, some students would rather do less than more, you know, as far as work, you know, like, oh, it's it feel like it's extra work with, you know, trying to get through to them, that it's gonna benefit you. But, you know, by the end, most I didn't get too much of that pushback from students, it was it was usually pretty easy to get them to, to at least comply. And then over time, it just, you know, it was as part of the process, it was part of our routine.
What do you what would you tell a student, if they said, like, you know, why do I have to do this, and they perceived it as extra work, what were the kinds of things that you would tell them that
it's really about tracking your own learning and being and being aware of it, like, let's make your grade more specific, let's make your grade reflect the learning that's actually happening, if we can get more specific, you can be more aware of where your strengths are, where your weaknesses are, and where you need to improve, like what areas you need to improve on. And so that's where I would focus is, let's help like, they help me help you improve. And not just say, We're doing good. And usually that was a conversation with higher achieving students. Because some of the other students, I think, you know, if you're getting C's, like you, you know, you have room to improve. So like that as much pushback there even even if they're just going through the motions, but some of the higher achieving students who was like, Yeah, you're, you get an A right, you're probably will get an A, but like, that doesn't mean you know, everything there is to know it doesn't mean you've mastered everything. And so just being transparent about about where they're at, I think helps a lot. In giving them realistic expectations, number one, but also not sending them out, sending them out into the world with this idea of like, oh, you know, I got all A's, I must have everything. And then and then getting to the next level, whether it's high school or college and not being prepared, like finding out that like, oh, wait, I do have all these gaps in my learning that I didn't realize were there. And so like, it's, that's how I would sell it to him is to, let's find out where your gaps are. So you're not surprised later.
I can see, I'm curious if this is reflective of your experience with students, but I almost wonder if the students who are getting lower grades, if that could be a very empowering thing, because so the thing I'm thinking of is I saw I taught first year writing when I was in grad school for a couple of years. And I would ask students early on, like, what their relationship with writing is, right? And where that came from. And almost every time the ones that got that didn't like writing said, Oh, I had, you know, somebody I got D's in English, or I got, you know, the red pen, the red pen. red pen, my paper. Yes. And so I thought I sucked, right, or I think I suck, basically. And I wonder if this this goal setting and tracking can allow them to see like, Yes, I have a C but I am good at this one thing. You know, I'm really good at ATHLEAN X. Have you? Has that been your experience?
Yeah, I think so, like breaking it down into like, just four categories as opposed to like, you know, the whole 100 Point thing, like almost everybody is partially there, right? You know, on a four point scale of like one being you just don't get it to me and you partially get it three meaning you get it mastery and four being you're above and beyond like exceeding mastery, like any student that tries is is probably gonna be able to get a level two in, in almost any standard you know, with with some work and so for some of those students that really struggle to find success that like we're you know, be failing all their classes. Yeah, even even seeing that was like, kind of a positive kind of a, you know, like, I know, I can I can get to there and it felt more achievable. You know, even if they were really far behind and really low. And then usually, you know, they get Yeah, they get some, they would master some of the skills and you could have a conversation like hey, like, you're, you're good here. We just need to work on this and it just, it makes those conversations so much more productive with you know, if you talk to student one on one it's like, if you just tell him that Oh, you're you know, you're failing and you're you know, you're missing all these assignments like, okay, like, but what, what skills need to work on changing the conversation it's it changes it from student to relationship, you know, when it's like, it's not the teacher of the student, it's the student and the learning the student and the learning targets and, and, you know, as a teacher, you're just kind of like, helping them navigate it, you know, almost more like a, like a coach kind of thing. I mean, obviously, you're, you're, you're doing the instruction and stuff, but it just takes away. You know, that teacher as the as the scapegoat kind of thing, like all the teacher is like, that's not about me. And you, it's just about this, like, if we can, if we can focus on the learning, and it puts the focus where it should be, which is on the learning. So, you know, those high, the high achieving students, I think, are the ones that struggled the most, because, because it's a little more honest, you know, and it's like, if, if it's only about getting the A, then it's like, yeah, I just want to get the a, I don't care how, you know, and then nobody says that, usually, outright, but it's like, that's, that's kind of the feeling, that's the subconsciously, it's like, I just wanna get a if I got the aim good. And if you give him feedback, where it's like, well, you're not actually editing here. It's it actually what I've experienced, it causes anxiety for a lot of students, but even then, it leads to a good discussion of like, you can get there, like, this is just where you're at, like, you could, you know, you could still get that A but here's what you need to do to do it. Like, here's what you need to work on. And, and for even for those students, it's, it's a much more productive conversation,
right? And even if it's hard, which I'm sure it is, you know, I'm just, I'm kind of projecting, like I said, based on the type of student I was, like I said, but there is a little bit in that anxiety, it's, uh, I need to be good. I need to be told I'm smart, I need to succeed, you know. And so that's that itself is kind of rooted in anxiety. And so if you're, you, eventually you're going to have to that, you know, you're eventually going to fail at something. You can't that just, yeah, it's true as a human. And so if you can learn to have that sounds, really, I'm hearing a lot of that growth versus fixed mindset. Yeah, if you can learn that early on, you are saving yourself some pain down the road, and that school learning should be about too. So.
Yes. Yeah. And it's in that that's part of that mindset shift that, that I think needs to take place, regardless of what what systems people have in place. It's just, you know, a school somewhere where you go to, to learn and grow or is it just, you know, somewhere where you get judged, you know, and it's, you know, trying to separate self worth from, you know, or even like, worth that other people place on you from school. You know, it's something I learned pretty early on, like, I think growing up, I probably did place a lot of value there, like, oh, you know, get good grades. You're smart, you're good, and you're good kid. Yes, was obviously far more nuanced than that.
I'm Nikki Herta and you're listening to bright stories of hope and innovation in Michigan classrooms. Bright is brought to you in part by Mnemic insurance company, insuring the educational community for more than 70 years. teachers and school employees visit mnemic.com/quote to see how much you can save. today I'm chatting with Sam Cecilia, an instructional coach and former classroom teacher for Waverly community schools. Up next, we dive into Sam's top three strategies for setting and tracking goals with students. So today, we are wanting to dig in a little bit to three ways to set and track goals with your students to kick us off. Do you want to give us your first tip in this area? Sam?
Yeah, I think the the number one thing is to set aside time in your your class schedule to regularly set goals and track progress. So if you're just talking about grade tracking, you know if you could do it once a week, or even once every two weeks, but like regularly scheduling time, where students are reflecting on where they're at, and looking at their progress, you know, and having them document that in some way. It takes some time, you know, you obviously don't want to spend you know too much time on that because you're cutting into instructional time, but I think it it can help with the instructional stuff as well by getting getting more buy in from students. And so it's kind of a balancing thing there. But you got, if you don't set a time aside the time regularly, there's always going to be something that comes up that could be more pressing. And so that would be my number one tip, schedule it set a schedule and stick to it.
I'm curious, you mentioned the importance of scheduling time setting time aside, when you were in the classroom doing this just obviously might look different for every teacher but how did you do that? Like what part of the day or what part of your lessons did you set aside time to do this
in my English classroom, it would be part of like the the unit structure. So the you know, at the beginning of the unit we go over the the learning targets and and you know do Do some pre tests to figure out where people are at and then set goals. But a really good time to do this for all classes is during like a homeroom, or, you know, depending on what people have, you know, I've been in middle school and high school and you know, we've, we've always had some kind of time set aside for this, you know, is it is it just saying like, Well, go ahead, work on yourself. It's like, well, let's look at your grades. Let's, let's document it. Let's set some goals, both long term and short term. You know, like, it just kind of fits into that that homeroom time makes it more productive.
Awesome. Thank you. All right, what do you got for us for number two?
All right. So my second strategy would be to focus on growth and continual improvement. I mentioned earlier, pre and post tests, giving students something kind of tangible to look at, to compare where they were, you know, at one point to where they were after, you know, after learning, keeping the focus on, on growth, and less on just work completion, I find that, you know, students and at the high school in middle school level, it tends to just be why I did it, you know, he's like, Well, how well did we do it? You know? Or, oh, that's in the grade book? Well, now I'm gonna do it. So like, you know, like, it's worth points, you know, it's like, helping to shift from just getting it done, you know, like there punching a clock to, can we, like, grow, can we focus on the actual learning that's taking place,
you know, just how much goes into everything, it gives you so much respect for what our educators do. So let's get your let's get your third tip here.
It's time number three was utilize technology to streamline and lighten the load. Its teachers already have a lot on their plate, you don't need to add more to it. Or if you do, then you need to take something else away. And so it's not like you technology's gonna solve this for you, I suppose it depends on the systems you have. But what what I've never seen in the system that we use is like a way for students to look at like, Oh, here's my, here's my grade data over time. You don't I mean, it's just like, here's my grade right now. What was it before? I don't know. And so, you know, whatever, you know, utilize whatever you already have, right? That's gonna be the easiest way to get things rolling. Like, if you have a system that would show that data, then absolutely use it, like, so see what's available already. But if not, you know, you can, you know, you could find, you know, a spreadsheet goes a long way. And I think, I didn't use spreadsheets early on, in my teaching, and then the more I told, like, Hey, these are phenomenal, like, there's so much, there's so much you can do here. And students can get it, you know, they need some training, you know, teachers probably do too, I think they avoid it. Because it's, it can be a little daunting. But if you, you know, if you have like a template and setup and things like that, like, I use Google Sheets a lot, like whether it's Excel sheet, anything like that, like but if you're talking about tracking things, like a spreadsheet, is is a good way to do it. But it doesn't have to be you know what I mean? Like, but you can do it on paper, but then it becomes like, where does that paper go that I collect those papers do I have to like go in, like, you know, so that's one of the things I'm kind of pointing out, when I say use technology to streamline things and lighten the load is that like, you don't need to add a ton to your play. Because in the end, what's powerful about student setting goals and tracking their progress is that they do it right, the workload should be on them not on you as the teacher, for you, it should be mostly set up, and then checking in on them guiding them along and that kind of thing. And because if it's if students are just doing this, out of compliance, it's not going to be as effective for him, you know, like, it really needs to be, like, personalized in, you know, and so, yeah, I would, I would utilize technology to do that. You do even just a simple formative assessment, like a Kahoot or something like that, like, like, use that as a data point, you know, have students you know, if it's something, it's something you're already doing, you know, think about how you can incorporate those things. Into this, this process of setting the goals and tracking progress.
Top tools, just if you want to just rattle off a few that come to mind, you already mentioned Google Sheets, you mentioned Kahoot any others that you would recommend,
you know, I mentioned, utilize what you already have so like, see what your learning management system has that can that can help with this, you know, whatever reporting is available that you know, like that could help shed some light on on student progress I think would be helpful. I mean, We use Google Forms a lot. You know, it's easy to push out to the kids. But it's also easy to report back like you'd have that sent to their email, you can, you know, have it imported Google Classroom if that's what you're using. So, yeah, utilize whatever you're currently districts using, like, I think you can, you could work with it, but you want to see what what is it capable of? And then where do I need to like, supplement that. And so any kind of formative assessment tools is going to be super helpful. Kahoot quizzes is really good. Like I say, Google Forms, stuff that's going to give you output, you know, like that, that can be tracked. It doesn't have to be a number necessarily, but I, you know, it's easy to write, you got this score, like, here's where you're at. And I would usually, you know, have them track things on like a four point scale. When I say Google Sheets, it was like one Google Sheet that they filled out every week, like one row was a week, and to be all their classes on one. And so that that's what I'll share with you that you can share out, it's like, it's a pretty cool graph that you see over time, you know, each class has a different color, and you see all the lines and, and you can see, you're like, Oh, here's where they had a bad week, because every class went pink. And then here's where that you know, like, you can really like it paints a picture. It's pretty cool.
That's awesome. I'd love Yeah, if you can share anything like that. Yeah, I'll
share like a student sample one that's already filled out. I see it, but it's pretty straightforward.
All right. Can you tell me about a student who touched your heart and changed the way you teach?
Yeah, you know, I was just reminiscing with one of my co workers about a, a student who came into my class that obviously is in eighth grade history at the time, so like US history, and she was a special education student, and had a long list of accommodations. And you know, like, understandably so, and she was, you know, she had, she had a lot going on. And, but I remember there was all these accommodations, and it didn't match what I saw in class, I understood why, why they have some of these accommodations, but more like that, I'm like, I don't know if she just really likes history, but like, she really seems it or stuff like, so there were things in there, like, she had ever test read to where it was, like, I'm gonna have you, like, will read the test for you. Like, that's not a problem. But like, why don't you try it on your own, we'll see what happens. So see, aced the test, and I'm like, okay, so and eventually was like, she was like, one of my top students. And it wasn't anything I did, as I said earlier, but it was more she had just grown up she had outgrown those accommodations that have been written for probably years before just kept getting passed on AP at AP. And eventually, you know, we hadn't changed and she was, you know, and I mean, she was on a track to like, maybe get a diploma or something. And then she ended up going to college, and just all these other things. And, and we kept in touch a little bit through Facebook after she graduated, and it was like, it was it really, it really just changed my perspective on things like, number one, don't judge a book by its cover, you know, don't judge it by their by their past either. Because, you know, we're all growing and changing. And it was just, it was just such a positive heartwarming story, you know, to see her grow past the expectations that were set for her, you know, and that's not begrudging anybody that, that, that set those expectations was based on what they saw. And she just kind of defied the odds, I think, and it was, you know, and it was, I think, even physiologically, she overcame things like her brain developed more than they thought it would. It was, it was, it was just amazing to watch. And to see her continue to grow even after I had her in class. So
and that's what you want as a teacher, right? Like, yeah, that's so neat to see that because it sounds like even to her. It was a surprise, you know, like, she was like, yeah. Oh, wow. I don't need that. Oh, my gosh, I can't do it.
Yeah, it was it was cool.
All right. So very similar question, just a teacher that you had, who had an impact on you and changed the way you you teach.
Yeah, I had a teacher, Mrs. Sutherland in high school. And I had her for many classes, but she did. She didn't video production. And I mentioned earlier if it went off camera, but that I taught a video production class and I volunteered I actually made the class based on that experience. It was junior senior in high school and you know, we would we do like, like the school announcements broadcasts and things like that, but we do all sorts of fun stuff with it. It was just, I don't know, seeing what what teaching could be, you know, like, it was just like, I learned a lot from that but more than just like the content of the class, which was not necessarily relevant to anybody's life, you know, unless you become a videographer or something like that. It was the the teamwork, you know, like working with others collaboration, the problem solving, you know, just working with like VHS tapes, you know, like, like to add titles. He had to like, tape tape, and never record on another one. And it was it was bonkers. But yeah, so it looks I started Dance, Dance Ella and she's great. I think she's, she's still teaching last time I saw my 20 year reunion so she But it's got to be get close to retirement. But she was, she definitely inspired me to become a teacher.
I'd like to thank him for taking the time to share with us some of the wisdom has acquired over his years as a classroom teacher. And now as an instructional coach. I want to thank him for offering insight into strategies for empowering students to take ownership of their own growth and learning rather than experiencing school as something that passively happens to them. And of course, I want to thank him for sharing his top three strategies for setting and tracking goals with students. One, setting aside time in your class schedule to regularly set goals and track progress to focusing on continual growth and improvement, and three, utilizing technology to streamline and lighten the load. Without a doubt, it's challenging work to get students to take charge of their own learning. But with leaders like Sam forging our path forward, if there's one thing we're certain of, said the future is bright. Do you know someone who's an inspiring Michigan educator who should be featured on our show? Send us an email at Bright at Michigan virtual.org to let us know who they are and why we should interview them.
Thank you for joining us for this episode of bright stories of hope and innovation in Michigan classrooms. This podcast is produced by Herbie Gaylord It's hosted by me Nicky Herta is shaped by many of our passionate and talented colleagues. Big thanks to Ken Durkin, and Perez and Brandon Battista for their contributions to this episode. Bright is brought to you in part by Meemic insurance company, insuring the educational community for more than 70 years. teachers and school employees visit meemic.com/quote to see how much you can save. The great podcast is made possible by Michigan Virtual, a nonprofit organization that's leading and collaborating to build learning environments for tomorrow. Education is changing faster than ever. Discover new models and resources to move learning forward at your school at Michigan virtual.org.