Michael Goldberg, welcome to the show. I am looking forward to digging deep with about your career, your life, what you do, what you're going to be doing, and just having some fun. What do you say we got started?
That sounds good man. How are you, Adam?
Living the dream, my friend, living the dream. I like to say when people ask me I say I'm outstanding, but working on getting better.
I love motioning, at least when they can see me and kind of, you know, little little, it's like a shot glass like I'm this much better than tremendous.
I might throw that into my repertoire.
Yeah, I always get a shot glass. I always had people like, do it back and next time I see them, I say "how are you?" and they just kind of motion but you got a motion with a little shot glass thing. And that's it. And we both laugh. Tremendous.
Yeah, I agree. So tell me, Michael, for those who for some reason, just don't happen to know who you are. Give me the quick and dirty. What's the overview about kind of who you are and what you're doing with yourself?
Well, I definitely keep busy for sure. So I would say there's three main hats that I wear on the business front. First and foremost, I founded, lead a company called Knock Out Networking. And yes, I do box and I'm a fanatic about boxing. But I also do some amateur stuff and was even in the ring sparring just this past week. So Knock Out Networking is focused on delivering training, speech speeching. I are a professional speaker. Speaking coaching, consulting offering, I wrote a book focused on helping sales producers. I have a niche within the financial services community, grow their business through networking. So that's the one hat that I wear and kind of the main hat where it's all about networking, connecting, and probably a big part of what we're going to be talking about here. The second hat that I wear is that I need a networking group called The Networking Group, and we call it T-N-G for short. And that is now a national organization, a national networking organization that's focused on creating a platform of a vetted community, vetted community of networkers that are focused on having a blast, while growing their business, and the brand and the culture is a lot of the ideas that I share. And we've had conversations. So I know we share a lot of those ideas and doing some similar work, Adam. And then the third hat that I wear, which is more of a labor of love than anything else is that I made an adjunct professor at Rutgers University, and on a Monday night it's now all virtual. Now, given the whole COVID thing is now it's all remote. So I teach a class called public speaking, which is another form of connecting and building relationships and being able to do that. So three different, but kind of interrelated hats that I wear that I might throw in the ring on the business front, so it keeps me pretty busy, that's for sure.
Yeah, that's an understatement. I love how you tie everything to boxing, that is just an easy way to remember things. It's really creative. And it's obviously something that you're passionate about. How did that come to be?
It's funny. I wasn't clever enough to come up with a boxing thing early on. When I founded Knock Out Networking in June of 2000. It wasn't knockout networking, it was something else. In fact, it was called Building Blocks Consulting. Building Blocks Consulting the thought was getting back to fundamentals and basics and putting the building blocks together on building your leadership and ends your network and your business. And I was just getting into boxing at that time. And it always been a fan. And as I got more involved with boxing, when I would be speaking at different organizations, it was usually big events with financial advisors, you know, again, my niche, but then I would weigh in with another story about how to make a connection. Or I would talk about how you lead with the right, and how you're always start with your power punch. And little by little, the metaphors work its way in. And I talk about how networking like boxing or boxing, like networking, you know, it's about the connections, it was always about the connection. And I always made those parallels, I had so much fun with it. And then at one point, I was working with a large broker dealer, which is a platform in the financial services industry, where you have financial advisors there and I was speaking at a conference. So here I'm with all these advisors, and this happened to be down in Texas. And I remember sharing a story and I said, let me just weigh in with another connection. And after I finished that story, this big cowboy, I mean, like something out of a movie stood up he was a financial advisor with a cowboy hat and the whole thing he said, "You're a real knockout networker, boy," and he sat down, and I paused, smiled and looked at him and said, "Thank you" and Knock Out Networking was born and then it all became framed around where to go what the same with whom to make more and better connection. So now people come to me with boxing stories and who they know and it's really a blast.
That's great. I mean in your videos doing them in the ring. What gym did you do them in, by the way?
It's Gleason's Gym, but the Jersey Shore version of it. So it's Gleason's Gym in Long Branch and I know the owner there, which is actually a networking story. I actually met her watching the Pacquiao fight pack. I don't remember who Manny Pacquiao was fighting. But it was at a restaurant on the Jersey Shore and place was packed. And I remember being at the bar, all the standing and my friend that I was supposed to meet at the last minute wasn't going to show up. So he texted me, "I can't make it." So now I'm stuck in this place, watching this fight by myself, right. But that place is just jam packed. So I didn't feel like standing at the bar for the next few hours watching all the undercard and the fight. So I ended up seeing this woman seated with a guy. And there was an open chair. So I thought, let me wait around there too. And then see if there's nobody that's gonna sit in that chair. Maybe I'll see if I can ask if I can sit down. And that's kind of how it played out is a couple rounds went by looking back. Nobody came back from the restroom or anything. So I went over and introduced myself. And that happened to be the owner and operator of that Gleason's Gym. Yeah, Jackie, and then her friend who's a trainer, so I sat there and not only did they were they generous enough, of course, I bought them a round. But we were talking boxing the entire time. And we formulated a friendship. So I was able to do all that filming it anything I want to do in that Gleason's Gym anytime I want, she just throws me the keys, all because I was bold enough to go up there and introduce myself and ask if I can have the chair. So I know something that you talk about is you don't ask the question. The answer is always No, we'll look whether that lead, I've got this friendship, I've got a trainer. And all these things came out of just asking the question.
That's a beautiful thing. There is gentleman that was on the show. His name's Dr. Wayne Baker. And Dr. Wayne Baker was he's one of Adam Grant's mentors, and they also are owners in a company called Give a Toss. And we can get into that a little later. But he wrote a book, All You Have to Do is Ask and it's really interesting than in here's a perfect example. It's part of everything networking.
Yeah. And so I find I hadn't even thought of that story until he does ask me that question. But that was so long ago, when pay-per-view fights were brought into big time restaurants, you weren't paying a big cover or anything like that. But that place was packed. I don't think even after pandemics I'm not sure if that ever happens again.
Yeah, that's a totally different world. So tell me where do you see I mean, as a veteran in this space, a wildly successful business leader, author, teacher, professor, whatever, just all around great guy doing this all these years? Where do you see most people going off the rails? When it comes to networking and building relationships?
Yeah, so it's just in general, I think people go off the rails because we get so enamored with what it is that we're after. The end game. And there's really only six end games, when we're networking, from the lens that I look through. It's either you're looking for more business, you're looking to land a job, you're looking to learn something, learning about a product. Yeah. So I mean, you can network to learn something, you can network for social reasons, gaining friendships, you can network to basically just pay it forward, just help people out with nothing in return. Or you could be out to solve a very specific problem. Like that's it, there's only six real reasons why we network, but I share all that, because usually we get so caught up in what it is that we're after that we forget that networking is actually a "we" thing rather than a "me" thing. Like it's about collaboration. So if I focus on, like a really delve into how I can help Adam achieve some of the things that he's after, he might help me right back, right. So it's not that it's a tit for tat, but relationships should be given take and should be collaborative. That's what makes them good relationships. And I think we end up losing sight of that. Certainly in the financial services community where I spend most of my time, that's about the number one default that I find a financial advisor make when they're setting up a meeting, and they're saying something, and it doesn't play out the way they want. We like "doo doo doo doo doo..." kind of circle it back. And it's always because they went into sales mode when it really wasn't the appropriate time to do that. Yeah.
And did you have an epiphany yourself? Or did someone share the insights with you? Or was it just reading have a discount? You know, when did it go off for you? The importance of the giving?
I mean, it was it was, like 100 years ago? I mean, I think I was just wired that way, honestly, because I quit a really good job to start a career doing what nobody else was doing. like think about it like what we're doing. It's not there's no playbook to it. It's not like I'm going to go and be a CPA, there's lots of other CPAs. I'm going to become an attorney or a financial advisor with a script is already written. So it's like we're kind of writing our own scripts. So as my friends joke, they say you conjured up the business out of nothing. And that's so true. Like I created this marketplace, established the need or highlighted the need and then created a product or service, an approach and a philosophy that fit and a lot of that philosophy I was already doing like I just knew, yeah, there's a lot of other There's a lot of other mistakes I made. But I just knew early on that if you would help great people, and they have to be great people, like they have to be people that you like, trust, respect, and they have to be really good at what they do. If you help those people get what they want, they just help you right back. And I just knew that intrinsically. And it just felt right to me. And that's just fundamental. So it's like, a no brainer for me. But I always had this "we" approach I always had this collaboration, because I love getting to know people. And I was genuinely interested in understanding what it is that they did. So I could figure out a way because yeah, it would just be a thrill just to help them. And as they helped me right back, as I started meeting more and better people, they started helping me in more and better ways.
That's a great answer. And how did you find the niche? Like, whatwas it about the financial advisor space that really attracted you?
Yeah, you know, I, I didn't have it figured out in June of 2000, that I wanted to focus on helping people network, grow their business, generate referrals or recruits. That wasn't really my angle. You know, the original focus was really on leadership and communication. Because the last job that I had was with a training and consulting firm, that doesn't exist anymore. But that's really what my focus was leadership, communication, and anything connected to that. But when I went off on my own, I knew that, well, I don't have this big budget called marketing with millions of dollars that I could spend on all this stuff. It was before social media was a thing. So I just knew that I had to get out there. And again, if I helped other people, they probably helped me right back. And I got caught up with an organization called, which I think, is a great organization called BNI, which is Business Networking International. And I became a leader in that organization. And it really embraced a lot of the values that I already had, in many ways, although there was a lot to learn there. And I was, you know, I was asked to be a speaker, for a big conference for BNI, and it was in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, on July 2 2002. And I remember that because it was really the only sly that I had, I wasn't really a very sly guy. And I was in front of hundreds and hundreds of people. And I remember people just packed the room. And they even paid me a big thing. Like BNI paid me a big, but the largest thing I'd ever been paid to be in front of a group of people. So there was definitely a need. And something clicked for me, Adam, in front of that audience, because not only did I get paid in a manner that I wasn't used to, but everybody wanted to be there, like they were there because they wanted to be there. And they paid to show up. So when I was doing all this leadership communications stuff, people were being told they need to be in a room, or in a forum with me so they could learn something, whether they wanted to or not, they were there. So they weren't always happy campers, I had to win them over. When I was working with sales people, sales owners, which is what this whole audience was, they absolutely wanted to be there. And they were high energy, and they were interactive. At the end of my talk, which I have no, like memory of whatsoever. I just know it was on a different planet. And I also knew that I needed more like, I gotta get me more of this the energy, the interaction they paid to be here. And I didn't think that small business was niche-y enough, I didn't think that small businesses could really be in a position to have me do what I thought that I really wanted to do. But I also knew that this is in 2002, that the Federal Trade Commission in 2003, was going to roll out the Do Not Call list. And I knew as I was looking at industries and professions that would really embrace my message, who would be the ones or what vertical would be the ones to embrace value the message and have the resources to be able to bring me in where it could be rinse, repeat, and they were very much like me, and it just became financial services. But what else could I go with as resources people like me high energy and a need that will be forever? So when I rolled all of my marketing ad was all paralleling the Federal Trade Commission and the DNC the Do Not Call list so when October of 2003. When that rolled out, my whole business changed, and it became Prudential MetLife Mass Mutual AXA Guardian bah bah, bah, bah, bah. Then it exploded.
Wow, that's a great story. I love your foresight to just knowing that was gonna work that the Do Not Call this that.
I didn't know it was gonna work. I didn't know. But I but I knew that there was a need. Like, I knew that advisors already struggle with networking, and they were cold calling. So imagine what happens when the landscape and industry, you know, changes the game forever, like this pandemic right now. better or for worse. It's changed the game forever. And that's really what the DNC did in sales, rhythm industries, especially ones that are not salaried. Yeah, they're all commission based. So I mean, real estate and but Financial Services is really, I think the industry that took the biggest debt if you didn't see it, and so it's not that I knew I was just competent that there was a need there.
So what are the things that you're really imparting to some of these people, so you know, your audience is essentially people that are highly driven, right? And they're they've got a sales mentality, right? Want to succeed. So you've got that in your favor. But what are the challenges that they're running up against? Is it? Is it the follow through? Is it really understanding what networking is? What is it that you are having to really focus on when you're working with some of these individuals?
Yeah, initially, it's really just helping advisors understand the fundamentals really what networking is, because this is not something that most are taught in colleges or universities enter my Goldberg's public speaking class. I teach a lot of the networking ideas because these undergrads in some cases, graduate students need to know how to connect a land a job, or an internship and they're busy texting, tweeting, on tik tok, they don't know the first thing about where to go, what to say, and with whom, and developing relationships and the whole thing. But it's really even before any of the tech stuff is advisors are not trained to network and make connections. They're trained on long term care, on life insurance, on financial planning on mutual funds, but succession planning, like they're, they're trained on products and services, they earned your designations and then it's bye, bye, go bring business in. And if they don't bring business and they don't get paid, so they get more we get so caught up in our own product or service that we forget that networking is a wee thing. Well, these advisors and many of them don't know it and still don't know what they still think it's a knee as in them thing, that it's really just about getting meetings with people and pitching them on financial planning, or life insurance, or whatever it is. So that's the first is the the networking mindset of it's that shift. And you have to do that when did boxing do? Like I struggled what I learned, you know how to box and getting in the ring for the first time, because I was afraid to hurt people, like I'm a relationship, I teach relationship skills. And now I got to get in the ring. And I have to change that and now be focused on killing that other guy. And it took me a while to be able to make that shift, because I needed a fighters mindset that fighters mindset is that you are a warrior. And that's it, that other person is your enemy until it's over. And so a networking mindset, you have to have that mindset, it's the opposite. It's about how do I meet, connect, communicate, help other people. So over time, they might help me right back. And that's a big shift, especially for a financial advisor that's looking to get assets under management by Q3. So it's a whole, once you shift that, then it's about getting into the X's and O's in terms of where you need to go, what you need to say with whom you need to say it.
I gotta tell you, one of the things that I really liked in your course that I thought was some some good takeaways was when meeting people, and I can't remember if it was the first time or even if it was just someone that you'd normally speak with bringing a card and even just asking their permission to you know, write down some notes. I talked about this all the time. And I'll tell you, most people, they don't do it, they're afraid to do it. But it's been my experience that when...
They're afraid to do which part, Adam? They're afraid to exchange cards, or they're afraid to ask if they can take a note ?
Yeah, like to bring the paper and bring the note out, which I think is it's great. I actually don't like to do it right on the back of cards, or sometimes I'll just write in my phone. And I'm just very straightforward about it. Like you just said something that was really important to you. And if it's important to you, it's important to me. Yeah, so I wonder I want to remember that. So, and I just thought that was a great advice in the way that you...
Thanks. It's even just the notion of and I often will have index cards with me, because I don't like writing on the back of people's cards. In my mind. It's disrespectful. And in certain cultures, especially in Japan and some others in Asian cultures is just considered disrespectful to write on somebody's card. So I almost never write on a card. I usually have index cards with me. But I will still ask permission, if I can take a note. And people are really taken by that because I mentioned permission marketing, because you know what they're saying, and your feeling about what they're saying is so noteworthy that you want to take the time to capture it. And by asking permission, in response, I always get it and it's true even today with technology like I'd rather than type in my phone, you know, I'd rather just scratch on a on an index card. But other than people thanking me, the next response I always get is you have an extra one. That's a great idea. So that I started branding, you know index card Knock Out Networking, because now I want people walking around with that. And now they're capturing notes. And again, that's about the connection. Just a real simple way. For $4.99 you can get 1000 of them at Walgreens. I mean, what a great marketing tool.
Agreed, completely agreed. What are some questions you recommend that people ask when they're meeting somebody for the first time? The art of small talk we have I like to consider the big talk so important, so valuable in an area that so many people lack
Agreed, and I don't consider myself a great small talker and I think it's because I just don't Like it, like I don't like chitchat, if it's just idle chitchat unless I'm laughing unless there's, you know, something that's funny that's going on. Or it's interesting, in which case, it's not idle chitchat at all for me. But it's me, I just find that draining either not that every word or every sentence has to be substantive per se, there's got to be a connection there. Though I usually when I share that with groups and audiences, they feel relieved, because it's not that they see this outgoing, extroverted guy on stage or in front of people. And they just think I've got all the answers. And then I connect with everybody, but I don't. But I do have some ideas and practices that I like to share with folks. And these are all things that I do myself, is often when I'm meeting somebody, and this is even with Zoom. This is even with virtual meetings, when I'm meeting somebody for the first time, I if we don't just click right away, and most often we do, just because of the way things are set up. But if that's not the case, I'll often share a story. Like I'll say, you know, Adam, great to connect, I appreciate carving out some time, can I share a quick story? And what are you gonna say? No? You're gonna probably laugh and say, yeah, and so now I might share a quick story about something that I think you would find relevant based on my preparation for the meeting, or just simply a story that just happened, just you know, now, that's relevant to the fact that we're virtual or irrelevant, because something just happened with my kid and bah, bah, bah. And so I'm not talking about like a 10 minute story. I mean, like a minute or two, and then hopefully, you'll laugh or chuckle or marvel. And I'll say, isn't that interesting? Has that ever happened to you? And now, of course, you are going to share a story. So now you're just a couple that you're not, you're still in the first round. And now here you are connecting and exchanging stories. And I mean, does it get better than that?
No, I absolutely love that. And are there any recommendations. So if someone's listening right now, in terms of the types of stories, and I'm assuming you're suggesting that people go prepared with a story or two.
If you can be prepared, sometimes my stories just come off the top of my head, like before, I was just talking about Manny Pacquiao. And, and that whole situation of how I met Jackie, I didn't plan that I hadn't even thought about that. But that story became relevant, and you conjured that up. So sometimes that does happen. But I think that life is a series of three minute rounds, we just have to see it, we just have to be present for it, making sure kind of our guard is up so we, we don't get hit by it. But we learn from it. And think about all the stories that take place now that most of our meetings are virtual, I had the mute button on for 10 minutes before I even realized and just then the cat walked by the screen or my wireless connection went or like we have a million stories. And if that's something that you can just share with somebody, like who can identify with that stuff. But it could be a story about family, it could be a story about this pipe just burst in my in my basement, or whatever it is. But if you're prepared with something that's happening, like right now, it's current day, or it could even be show that you've just watched, like Kingdom, I'm still talking about that Kingdom on Netflix, three seasons, we were talking about the fight game earlier, Adam like this is about UFC and in the mixed martial arts community and the best show I've seen in a long time. So I might start a conversation and say listen, I'm not sure if you're interested in fighting, you probably know that I am based in my company. But I just share a quick story about a show that I just finished watching. So I'll just get into that. And it's just a minute or two. And my purpose is not gee, let me just come up with a story. So I can act like I genuinely want to share that because I think it would be fun. And we all have that, you know. So once I finish, I'll say Isn't that great? And then you might say, Well, where is that? Is that on Netflix? Is it this? So now we'll get into that. And then I'll say, is there a show that you just finished watching it if you're in the middle of that you're excited about? So all of a sudden now it goes from me to we and that's an action.
I love that I love the sparring in the spirit of your vocab sparring.
I don't even know I'm saying it anymore, Adam. Yeah,
That's a beautiful thing. By the way. I know. I mean, I think it's great. Having a store, being able to tell a story well is so important. I do not do a good job of that. And I see people that are good storytellers, and the magnetism that that draws when you're able to do something like that, who doesn't like a good story, who doesn't like to take a little moment.
I'm gonna share a model of how to tell a story quickly, which I actually learned from a mentor of mine. So yeah, so she she will talk about that you've got to really kind of start with your best stuff. And she talks about and her name is Glenna Salsbury. And she is a speaker. She might be somebody you want to speak to. She is 83 years old, still on the stage. And she is a master at storytelling. And I got to know her through the National Speakers Association. And we started co-presenting on like the orientation like on a national level and talk about two polar opposites. You have Glenna Salsbury in her 80s who is just the most polished, warmest, most genuine lady just wonderful lady telling and talking about storytelling and then a boxer who's just raw just in your face, but we struck a friendship And there we go back and forth a lot. But she shares this model that she calls PSA, which is point story application. And it's a great way to tell a story in a powerful, but yet succinct ways you don't go off on tangents. So point would be, let me share a story about how I overcame my fear of public speaking. And then the story when you tell the story, and then after that application is bringing it back to the audience, remember, we thing, I share that story, or why I share this story, or what this might mean to you is, the next time you bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, you'll think of the story you'll know to always start with your point first,
That's excellent.
I teach in my public speaking class, because it's you know, how to tell a signature story, only a story that you can tell, because it's your story, but then how to tell that story in a way where you're making a connection, it's always about the connection.
So what do you do, when you come across that person that's either the buzzkill or just they're not engaged, or just something that you know, is just someone that's just going to drain your energy?
Yeah, we don't connect with everybody, that's just the way it is. But we just don't even great networkers and those that are outgoing. And by the way, you don't have to be an extrovert or be outgoing, to be a great networker. It just makes the connect easier. But there's other ways of connecting, even those that are more, you know, introspective or shyer, or introverted can still make a connection, it just might be a bit more difficult initially to have them do that. But that said, we don't connect with everybody. And because not everybody is an introvert or an extrovert, or we have different interpretations of what networking means. Because again, we're not really taught this stuff, you know, I've got a clinical definition, but somebody else's definition might be different than mine. So I refer to that dynamic, like when we truly Connect, like Adam, I want to believe that you and I just truly connected when we met, I would refer to that as the one-thirder dynamic. Because in my mind, we connect with about and I mean, truly connect where it's just it's real, it's genuine, it's fun, with about a third of the people that we meet. And that's if we're good, if we're good about a third of the people. So that's a one-thirder dynamic. But most of the people that we meet, it's like fine, but nothing really comes from it. Because there's just no spark, there's no vibe, that's the two-thirder dynamic. And it's the same whether it's online or off. So when I'm coaching or training or teaching, I always suggest focus on developing more better connections and relationships with the one-thirders because it's just easy, and it's fun. And there's a reason why you're connecting.
What do you recommend for people that aren't good? at connecting? Like they really struggle? And I actually the introvert extrovert, that's an excuse. And you kind of touched on this, but yeah, scientifically, introverts are actually better quote, unquote, networkers, they're, they listen better, they're more thoughtful, they're more deliberate,
More process oriented with follow up and follow through. Absolutely.
exactly. So that's just a cop out and agree for my perspective. So what do you recommend that people do to either become more engaging, get engaged? Is it the stories are there other things that they can be doing, they're like the shy person, then I recommend, you know, maybe you wear a specific, you know, you wear a hat, or you do a different tie, or you do something to stand out, if you're in person to let people kind of gravitate towards you.
Yeah, if you're on the more introverted or shy side of the equation, I just think you need a higher level of preparation, which you're probably good at anyway. Because you're you tend to be more, you know, process oriented and thought provoking. And so it's probably just a higher degree of preparation, where on that other index card is you actually write out questions that you feel you should be asking people that are open ended, that you think are important, and that reflect not only that you're going to learn because networking is about learning and helping, potentially helping a question, is it going to help you learn about that other person, but also questions that you yourself would want that person to ask of you? I often suggest that you know, you're on the path of one-thirderville if you ask a question. And then once you get the answer to that question that person counter punches, see what I did there, Adam, How about yourself? So when you get a How about yourself, you're, I feel like you're on the path of one-thirderville, though, for the introvert. It might be writing out on an index card, maybe lead with a question, or lead with a story. And then have two or three stories in mind. And then write down some other questions. What brings you here? What type of work do you do? Do you like what you do? How did you learn of this event? and so on?
Let's do this. Let's pretend you and I, we meet at an event we've, I don't know how we did it. But we just connected so yeah, there's a decent I don't know if we're 1/3 yet, let's just not it's not you and I were just two random people.
I was just going to be like an improv thing where so I'm at the dentist having my teeth my tooth extracted when I was... and I gotta take it.
I'm not good enough on my feet.
And yeah, I wasn't fine. I had a banana. And
So we meet, I'd love to kind of take the the pig through the python for people to kind of
Pig through the python.
Yeah. To see whatit's like from the inception of the connection to all the way through the falls or so. So you and I meet, there's a you know, we're not at 1/3 yet, but but there's that potential maybe for 1/3 We exchanged cards, maybe there's a way that we can benefit each other. What do you do, then walk me through the steps that you're taking whether from the follow up to the LinkedIn to the next step,
Let me just let me just share this is that I often will not go through the card exchange or the contact information exchange, moving forward if there's no There, there. Okay, good. So when somebody asks me, when should we reconnect, virtually, it's a little different, like when you're virtual, you have one another's particulars, and you've done your homework, it's a whole different look and feel. So I won't even get into exchanging contact information or following up on that, if there's no reason to do so. And there's only a handful of reasons I can help you, you can help me we can help one another. Or it's fun, it's fairly social, like, that's pretty much it. So there's got to be that there's got to be something that's there that's substantive. And in my mind, I have to feel like there's we there, that it's truly collaborative. And again, not that you're keeping score, that it's that's even Steven, right. But there is a potential collaboration, that it's not one sided, unless it's understood, that it's one side and you're you're networking with that employer that has the job and you don't, or that's way more established in their career than you are, in which case, it's kind of almost a mentoring relationship. And that changes the whole dynamic. And if that's okay, and you're able to base a collaborative relationship on that, so be it. But I know that you're asking in terms of process. So let me suggest this is that in terms of a networking process, if it's X's and O's, I like to share that there's only four phases of networking like for, there's your preparation, when you're preparing for an event, or preparing for a meeting, there's your presentation. That's your, when you're having the meeting, when you're asking questions, you're listening to answers, you're responding to questions, and you're connecting, you're sharing information about your respective businesses, or where you want to go and that sort of thing. That's presentation, then there's your follow up or follow through, if need be, or if you're on one-thirderville, right, when there's a reason to do so. But then there's the staying in touch component, you know, how do we stay in touch? What does that look like? Does it make sense? Why does it make sense?
And what do you do to stay in touch with people?
You can't stay in touch with everybody? Yeah, we have 1000s of people following us these days on social media and everything else. So it's really hard to keep in touch with everybody. But if you can pick the top 50 centers of influence, or potential referral partners that you would stay in touch with, you know, that are most relevant to your business, and you might be most relevant to their business, those that you have the 1/3 good to great relationship with, I think those are the people that you want to stay in closest touch with. And then of course, there's others. There's other categories, you're staying in touch with your top 10 prospects, your top 20 clients and so on. But the way I do it is so low tech, even though I there's like so many ways of doing it with sales, management systems, and CRM isn't the whole thing. But to me every month, I just reassess the folks that I think I need to stay connected with and that I need to focus on and develop more and better relationships with so I take a monthly strategy, but it's also aligned at what my quarterly or annual goals might be. And then of course, there's social, there's just people that I'm just in touch with socially, but I am just very systemic in terms of having lists that I update every month, and just making sure that this month, these are some of the people I'm going to reconnect with or follow up with.
That's great. It's just good that you have just some kind of system and something that I recommend to people they do at least annually is an audit or relationship audit. I typically do two a year myself, but I love the fact that you're doing this monthly
Every month. Yeah, because you know, relationships change. And also people emerge on our radar that maybe we didn't know, a month ago or two months ago and which could be a game changer.
Yeah. What do you do about the people that are poisoned in the network?
Define poison.
Yeah, it's true.
Takers can't be choosers. It kind of depends. I mean, I'm very protective of my calendar for sure. I have just certain I create a model week which is big in financial services, why I model that model week myself, whereas I break every one of my Monday through Fridays and halves for each half as to devoted to something that again, it's very Pre determined, given what my goal might be any different any given quarter. So I only have so many halves that I'm willing to utilize for meetings, and they have to be meetings that really have a purpose. So there's got to be that one-thirder thing, if it's somebody that's just as you're defining it, you know, a taker, it's really looking at do I like them, like, if I like them, I might be able to spend some time with them. But it's also on seeing if I could create a we dynamic, I might say something like, you know, Adam, you know, whenever we meet, you're very focused on your business, I want to just share an idea. Perhaps when we get together, if we spend more of our time collaborating and exchanging ideas about one another as business, we might be in a position to help one another and might formulate an even stronger relationship.
That's a great approach.
But the foundation is I have to like them. Yeah. Like, I have to think they're nice. I have to think that they've got a good heart, I have to think that they run a good business, that they're smart, or they've got the potential to do all those different things. Again, if there's no there there, then there's probably no point in spending time. It sounds bad, but we're just certainly not going to spend as much time with people that are going to really be takers. And they know they're takers.
Correct. I mean, listen, time is our most important commodity on this planet. So you got to make sure that you're spending it with the right people and giving as much as you possibly can.
Yeah, I mean, those people had the best relationships right with right now, some of whom became clients. They were takers simply because they didn't know what networking was, like they thought just talking to people in pitching their services was network and they just didn't know and most people don't know. But if I liked them, if there was something that was there that I thought was fun, interesting, smart, successful, then that's, you know, something that I'd be willing to cultivate, because it just might be a learning moment.
Yeah, that's great. What's the best advice someone ever gave you?
The best advice somebody gave me was to quit my job. That was the last job I ever had. And that came from Willow Shire. Who changed my life. Willow Shire was and this is back in it was 1999. I think it was I played hooky from my consulting job that I hated. Like, I love the job that I hated the people I was working with. And I played hooky. And I ended up in my gym, in some small town in Massachusetts. And I was living in at the time at like, 10:30 in the morning on like a Thursday. I'm not on the treadmill. And I ended up striking up a conversation with this woman Willow, who was on the treadmill next to me. And she probably has 10-12 years on me. But as we just started talking, I probably started off with what are you doing here at like, 10:30 in the morning on a Thursday, and we just hit it off. And I realized she was brilliant. Harvard and Cornell grad and the whole thing. She shared that she has a very successful consulting and speaking practice. And then I started letting her know that I was really not happy in my work right now, which is why I'm playing hooky. And she said you need to quit. You need to quit and start your own business. You're young, and this is the time to do it. And I said, Yeah, but what if I fail? She said, Well, this is the time to fail, like this is the time to do it. And if you make a mistake, or if you fail, you can always go back to doing something else or doing what you were doing. But and then she shared one of one of her biggest regrets is that she did not start her consulting business earlier, because she thinks that she would have learned so much more and been far more successful. And right there on that treadmill. She convinced me and I went back and I did I quit. And she mentored me a bit and coached me. And if it wasn't for playing hooky on that Thursday, 10:30 on a treadmill running five miles next to Willow. Who knows maybe we're not talking right now.
It was all because you weren't shy and you were able to talk and have a conversation with her.
Yea, without a doubt.
I love that. Well, yeah. Well, a big shout out to Willow.
Yeah, without a doubt.
So as we wind down, I'd love to kind of run a couple of quotes by you and get your The first thing that kind of pops into your mind. So success on LinkedIn is taking conversations and meetings off of LinkedIn.
Yeah, so you just want my response to that?
Yeah. What's the first thing that comes to your mind? You agree, disagree?
Totally agree. I totally agree. I think there's a difference between having, I've got 15,000 connections on LinkedIn versus I've got 2000 really good ones that I know that I can pick up the phone and I can speak with these folks. I mean, how many people follow us or that we follow that we don't really know. So I think that there's an importance in that as well. As we're posting, we're communicating. But again, the real connections in the real relationships come up. When we take the online stuff offline, get to know one another, have a conversation, connect and figure out how we can be resources for one another for sure.
Couldn't agree more. If you don't ask the answer is no. When you do ask you just increased your odds exponentially.
Without a doubt. You don't ask the question. The answers always no, if you ask the right question, you get the right answer.
That's it. I love Tony Robbins says something. The better the question, the better the answer. And the better the answer, the better the outcome. And he's got the right. Oh, yeah, it's completely great. Man only learns in two ways, one by reading and the other by associating with smarter people.
Without a doubt. Yeah, I don't know if it was Will Rogers. I know it's a Will Rogers quote. But I don't know if it was Will Rogers that said that you can measure a person by the books that they read, the people that they hang out with, and the stories that they tell.
I like that. And again, getting back to stories.
Yeah, yeah, well, you know, think about it this way. Let me just matriculate that back to the model week, like, Who are we spending our time with? Right? So in light of something like that, and the people that we're meeting with, that we're spending time with doesn't replicate who we are or who we want to be?
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you know, the Jim Rohn quote about your the health, the wealth, the attitude of the, you know, the average of the five people that you spend your time with, and 100% just look around. I'm a big fan of that. So I've been telling my friends, they need to upgrade.
I might borrow that.
And then my last question, my last quote, and then I'll let you go and do your thing for the day is the best research is a conversation.
I'm gonna say it depends.
Oh, all right.
I like the my two favorite two words strung together. And it depends. It was often the research that we do, provides a much better conversation. So think about the richness of the conversation, when you meet with somebody, and they've prepared to speak with you. They've been on your LinkedIn, they've watched some of your videos, they've been on a podcast, they read up on you. They're familiar. I mean, how flattering that is, isn't like on your way to one-thirderville. So I would say both important, but I'd say, you know, the conversation should be to build on the research you've already done and shouldn't replace the research that you perhaps you should have done.
Yeah, I would agree with that thought that logic given where how you're thinking about it, I guess maybe it should have been prefaced, like how I think about that.
It's a trick question. Yeah.
Well, I didn't realize it till you made it a little more complicated. But yeah, no, I was just thinking about more in terms of, you'd need information on something. There's as opposed to googling something or get a lot more behind what it is that you're looking for, by being able to have a conversation. It's all
there's no question about it. No question. Back in the day where you had a crack open. The Encyclopedia Britannica is a little different than I'm having a meeting with Bill. You know, let me spend 10 minutes click, you know, reading, you know, about Bill and cultivating that research, because it's just gonna provide more and better connection. You know, I mean, think about how flattering it is. When somebody said, they watched your video, they read your book, they did some sort of homework. I mean, it just it makes you feel good.
Yeah, I agree. Michael, this has been a great conversation we covered a lot. I mean, whether it's your boxing metaphors, the importance of storytelling, the PSA point, learning about the one-thirders.
So Adam, wait, when do we get started? This is the warm up, right. This is the intro. This is the lead in into?
That's it, man. That's it. Again, I think the four phases of networking, were really important too the preparation presentation, follow up. Yes. In staying in touch. I mean, these are in so many other things that we talked about. Just great takeaways, great insights, love your story. love what you done. love the fact that you know the importance of asking the question, following through with people making those connections and look at all the and look at how it all kind of comes together. You and I for example, we met through Joe Applebaum, another great connector and just through the course of our conversations, how many other people that we know I just while we're talking? I just looked you up on LinkedIn, we've 117 mutual connections, how many of them we know really well, I don't know, probably a good handful of them. I think that that's by being able to connect on these kinds of levels, we are only going to better each other. And as you were saying, as a result, we're going to better ourselves. Thank you for letting me have an opportunity to get to know you better and to share our conversation with my audience. They just got better.
Well, thanks. And I appreciate the opportunity to be able to spar a few rounds with you, Adam, so thank you.