There's a lot to be hopeful for. And I think about the global church and the way that the evangelical church is growing. I mean, it's it's we're seeing that in Brazil and some other countries, nationalism and nationalist rhetoric is certainly on the rise. But in other countries in Africa, parts of Asia and the global South, there really is like a wonderful, exciting kind of emergence of evangelicalism. That I think is a really beautiful global expression of our faith. And I really try to take comfort in that context. When I think about where I am in Seattle, Washington and where we are as American Christians.
Welcome to the show, where we talk about topics in modern Christianity that are so challenging, they require us to be grounded in something much bigger than ourselves. If you're here you have likely found yourself hungry for something deeper. You want to find answers for how to hold on to your faith after seeing religion be twisted, in a way that has somehow become bad news instead of good. I'm here for all of that too. I'm here for the spiritual wrestle and I'm here to learn more ways that people are finding hope. In a God that interrupts our norms and expectations.
You might be asking, Can business really have a kingdom effect? Why combined business admissions, you're wondering is valid. Statistically, businesses had a very harmful effect on vulnerable communities. More than 1/3 of all global profits are made in forced labor exploitation, including nearly $8 billion generated in domestic work by employers who use threats and coercion and pay little or no wages. Business can and has been used for so much evil, but it also has a power of use for so much good. It's through good business that financial burdens are lifted, safe working conditions are established and authentic. Relationships are formed. That is why we are on mission at Kindred exchange. To empower entrepreneurs around the world and to equip our community with the resources they need to begin to shift the way they approach mission work. Join us as we pave the way for a better form of impact. One that is rooted in humble partnerships and kindred exchanges. To learn more become a monthly donor today, go to kindred exchange.co/donate.
I am so excited to let you all in on Sara Billups thoughts and ideas around this concept of is Jesus even good news today? It's a it's been a joy to get to read Sarah's work on Instagram as of late and I've already pre ordered her new book. She is a Seattle based writer and cultural commentator whose work has appeared in The New York Times Christianity today and more. Sarah is completing her Doctor of Ministry in the sacred art of writing at the Peterson center for the Christian imagination at Western Theological Seminary. I'm gonna have questions for you about that, too. I'm very, very intrigued. She works to help wavering Christians remain steadfast through cultural storms and continues to help for the flourishing of the church amid deep political and cultural division in America and if you guys are here at all, you know that these are all topics that I love to discuss, and I'm thrilled to get to introduce you to Sarah Billups today if you are not familiar with her voices. Sarah, thanks for joining us.
Thanks, Lauren. I'm so happy to be here.
Outside of that introduction, is there anything else that you'd like to add personally to say hello to everyone and let them get to know you?
Yeah, sure. I've got a year old Australian Shepherd roaming the room in the living room right now with a stuffy of my kid I have to I have two kids and a dog and been married to do for 20 years this past fall, which is so great.
Oh, congratulations.
I don't even understand what time is these days. But we've lived in Seattle about 18 years but I was born and raised in Indiana, and Metru at Taylor University in Upland. So you're for I think we're officially Seattleites at this point, though.
I think after 18 years, I think you you deserve that title. So that's wonderful. So you know you you write a lot and today's the first time I'm getting to meet you and hear your voice and see your face in real time. But, you know, you're writing so many relevant topics to the people that we know who are struggling to hold on to an American religious faith today. So I'm wondering you know, this from your background and your life experience, when did you want to start to feel like maybe you were being othered by the way that you attach to Jesus, the gospel that you were holding on to wasn't aligning with one of partisan politics or nationalistic dialogue? When did you start to feel that business?
Yeah, thanks, Lauren. I mean, you know, thinking, thinking back, I always felt a little different. I'll start with the word felt or feel because I'm an Enneagram. Four, and so that seems to be perfect. That seems to be my frame, that the growing up I went to a nondenominational done nondenominational Evangelical Church in Indiana. And I always felt a little, a little different. I didn't totally feel comfortable with like praise and worship music or just kind of like that extra version of the service. I've always been kind of bookish. But in my family, we very much were interested in talking about culture words of the day that may have been like backtracking of records or you know, my parents were really worried about parental advisory warning stickers, or so of course, us kids would like go in the living room and play records backwards and try to hear
Some word or the other, but we all say no, by the time I turned 18, my dad on my 18th birthday drove me to the Republican, the local Republican headquarters in Allen County in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and registered me as a card carrying Republican and then we went and had Coney dogs for lunch. So from the so on my 18th birthday, we had that like core set. And so that was certainly because in our family, abortion was the only issue that mattered and that was the vote and the way for us to vote against abortion was to support Republican candidates. So it was very much foolishly voting. So growing up in my family, we always were certainly culturally Christian and attended an evangelical church but I never quite felt like I fit although I certainly believed I was told about politics and about cultural issues. And so it wasn't until I got into high school and started to read the literature, the beats instead of writing poetry and got into different bands and music that I began to find a different way forward. But I began to feel like my interest in being a creative person didn't, didn't I didn't see myself reflected in church and I wasn't sure how I could bring those two worlds together. It wasn't until I was a little bit older, in college that I began to find this sort of countercultural Christianity this expression of faith that felt a little bit more like me, and a little bit less like my family. So I kind of found my own my own way through if that, if that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you're, you're speaking to the the point that an American religiosity or American Christianity in particular, it has been such a strong brand that looks a certain way, especially when it's racialized. You know, so for we're the white Evangelical Church versus the black church in America versus a different a different type of identity in a church, you know, we have kind of really segregated the way that we approach our walk with with God, that is so racialized so I could see where, I mean, I come from a conservative white evangelical background myself. I know, I know the words to say I know how to sit there and look the like the most Christian, the best Christian that they can be. And there wasn't a lot of space or were creative to express themselves and how they attach to God.
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think that, you know, what I worked on, I worked on my first book, orphaned believers that comes out from Baker soon. And this is our listeners can't see Lauren. This is so funny. But I don't have the copies yet as an aside, so I have I've actually painted a cover. So here's the cover, but it's beautiful. It's my child's baby sitters club graphic novel. And the new girls so I'm sorry that listeners can't see it, but I don't love it because it was right next to me. But, yeah, I think I just wanted to explore how my experience growing up in the white evangelical church in the 80s and 90s really impacted the way that my faith was formed and how that how that plays into today and what's going on not just in my own experience, but I think in the experience of a lot of my peers. And so I wanted to look at culture, wars and consumerism and end times culture specifically and see how those pieces might have threads that we can pull towards Christian nationalism or towards smoke machines and stadium kind of concert venue church services. I mean, some of some of those things can be beautiful, but in a lot of cases, I think a lot of us are feeling a little bit wandering or confused or like we just don't quite fit so when I say worshipping believer, I mean either someone that looks around the church and doesn't know where Jesus is or doesn't find a sort of formative path to grow as a Christian or somebody in a space where there's not a lot of Christians and wonders how to be grounded. So I kind of look at that culturally and then also within the church.
You know, looking at that through a cultural lens is is such a smart way to do that because we are so much more impacted by our own culture than we realize especially when it comes to our faith constructs. So I love that you're looking at the 80s and the 90s. And when this podcast comes out, your book will be ready and available to purchase. I've already pre ordered my copy but you know we are we are so impacted by our culture there's there's a podcast and other podcasts from the BBC called things fell apart. I don't know if you've if you've come across it or not, but it kind of looks ominous. So it looks at culture wars and how different parts of American it's a British guy looking at American culture, which is always I find helpful when an outsider looks into your culture to give feedback but but he's looking you know, to say this concept of abortion there's the first episode is about abortion. And he said you know, what was formed in in the in the evangelical rights that moral majority season for the Republican Party. How, you know, Republicans weren't even looking at abortion Christian event, evangelical Christians weren't even looking at that issue to make it an issue until the feminist movement came. And and it became, you know, that became the issue that we were fighting and look at how that impacts us today. You know, we see we see people carrying around tiny fetuses given to them and church, plastic fetuses. Not not not, Peter says but you know how how plugging at the heartstrings of a certain issue has really narrowed our ability to look at a nuanced topic and parse through what God would have us out he would have a show up for our neighbors.
So yeah, that's so well said my goodness, yeah, you're right. The religious rate really only gained steam in the 80s. And I think that a lot of folks, I mean, I identify as Generation X, but I'm kind of zeneo like on the line, but I think a lot of folks that are the next are millennial or Gen Z have less context and how it really hasn't been that long, since a lot of these ideas really took took root. And so when Carter was in office, he was a southern Democrat, and an evangelical it really wasn't until Reagan and the Moral Majority really gained steam in the 80s. On that what has seemed like an inevitability like we have always as evangelicals believe a certain way about certain issues has really been true. So I think that's, that's fascinating and good to kind of zoom out and think about time a little bit thinking about the whole history of the American church in the whole history of the church for 1000s of years and this sort of little pocket we're in, but how so much of our gaze and focus is on a few issues, instead of really being formed by Jesus and Jesus's work.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, we're we are attaching ourselves to a gospel that is so informed by an American construct of, of capitalism and consumerism, of industrialization. And when we attach to a gospel like that, it can be easy to poke holes, right and and what we're believing, because we're kind of, we're not seeing how much the world around us in our immediate circle is impacting our pathway to Christ. So I'm curious what trends you're seeing now, and we're talking specifically again about American Christianity but What trends are you witnessing in the American Christian space that are trending up or trending down right now? Maybe something that is making you concerned or something that and something that's giving you hope?
Yeah, you know, starting with the, the thing that's concerning me, I mean, there are several things. And Laura, you're talking about consumerism is is a whole thread that I think is really, really important, especially when we think about Instagram, kind of the merging of wellness, culture and Christian influencers with the idea of self help and how that kind of is tinged with prosperity gospel messages. That's a really interesting and concerning thing for me to look at and for a lot of us to think through. But I think where my mind is really going is the concern about Christian nationalism, which a couple of years ago, was pretty widely considered a negative term or something that was was critical has now in recent months, even been embraced as something positive for us to aspire to. So the there was a Pew poll that came out that said, 45% of Americans think that the US should be a Christian nation, but only 6% of those want the US to be actually led by Christian government like the there's like a disconnect between the talking point where we think we're Christian and the fact that a lot of us don't actually want that. And why is that? Why is that important? Because pluralism is a good thing. Separation of Church and State is healthy. But that kind of fear based rhetoric of us needing to be a Christian nation to protect the status quo to protect, what I would say is white supremacy and white dominance. And to protect the idea of things always being how they were is very concerning to me, because I don't think how things always have been, have been very good at all. And when I think about I'm thinking about that in terms of opportunity in terms of racism, the roles of women, and of course, abuse. But when I think about something positive, there's a lot to be hopeful for. And I think about the global church and the way that the evangelical church is growing. I mean, it's it's we're seeing that in Brazil and some other countries, nationalism and nationalist rhetoric is certainly on the rise. But in other countries in Africa, parts of Asia and the global south. There really is like a wonderful, exciting kind of emergence of evangelicalism that I think is a really beautiful global expression of our faith. And I really try to take comfort in that context. When I think about where I am in Seattle, Washington and where we are as American
Christians. Yeah, I am so glad that you're nodding to that because it's something that I have said often if it were not my experience with the global church and walking alongside believers in in countries where we're Christians are persecuted or countries and extreme, an extreme development and the global south. I don't know that I would have been able to hold on to my faith, like I have been able to because I see the expression in countries that are much different than my own. So moving back to the United States three years ago, you know, I didn't know how to come back to the place that had had raised me and foreign to I was and I didn't know how to love her well, and I didn't know how to be here, but I did know that the American church was in crisis and that if I was willing to fly all across the world and be you know, be in community with a church there than I needed to learn how to do it here too. So So, oh, my goodness. Well, it doesn't always present itself in beauty and grace. Sometimes in rage and horror and sadness and grief, but
yeah, it just gives me hope to hear you persevering and pushing forward. I think there's a lot of reasons to take a break from church. I think there's a lot of good reasons why sometimes we can't go I mean, there have been Sundays for me when I've felt so much weight going into a service that I had to I had to literally just walk out and leave. You know, I think there are reasons why it's not a safe place for folks, but I also am so convicted that there are healthy congregations and expressions in America and then if we can find them if we can stay like if we have hearts burning within us to reform from within that is a hard and and really beautiful road. So it's just it's cool that your story coming back after being not, not in the US has turned MATLAB so that's encouraging to me.
And I hope that's affirming to people who are listening. I can think of a whole handful of church services that I've walked and walked out of myself. Because it was either too heavy or just didn't feel aligned with a God that I knew and I didn't want to sit there and be affirming what was being said from a stage and or from a pulpit. And so, you know, hear us say that those experiences have happened and this whole navigating who we believe God to be and what he wants his church to be. Is is messy, right because we are just so imperfect. Brands there is one company whose products and practices I regularly sing angelic praises. Abel is committed to the very best models of ethical supply chains and healing center employment from the cotton youth and their products to the way they run the boardroom. I feel confident choosing my April clothes to wear out of my house each day. I've been a loyal customer for a decade. I love their extended sizes, their leather goods. I am actually looking at three bags that there's on my coat rack right now. And I love their gold jewelry. I even in my last kit after them just getting to different spelling but I've seen the backside of April. I've walked through their design studio, their jewelry workshop their warehouses, I've even co led a business workshop with April's founder Barrett ward. So when I tell you I love this company, it is at the top of my list for ethical wearable guides. Shop online and use the code upward 15 for a discount on anything you like. That's up W AR D one five, wear it with pride and use your purchasing power to force exploitative businesses to change their company practices for good when it comes to sharing, you know this faith that you're holding on to with others, especially in light of the history of evangelical culture in the United States that really has tainted a hope in Christ. We're watching people and our country walk away because they don't want to be identified as someone who would be a Trump likin or someone who would attach a political party to a cross right. And they don't want to have anything to do with that. How how do you share your faith with others who feel like it's too far gone?
Yeah, I think when I when I talk about my faith with others, I have to start by talking about the church and how what the church really is, is just the gathered body of believers that Jesus left us with. And so I think that in culture right now, if I if I kind of zoom out, I think Jesus is doing okay, you know, like a brown skinned refugee that was displaced in the Middle East that spoke radical things that did radical things and acted out of love and resistance of power is compelling. The problem, of course, is the fine mess that we've made of Jesus's church. But I still believe it's the best hope that we have, because it's what Christ left us with. And so, either I believe in a virgin birth in a resurrection. Either I'm building my life around a myth and a lie. Or if it's true, there is something beautiful and good to preserve and to hold on to. And so I think that the only way that the Church will disappear if it's a myth, but I have to believe that, that the church is here to stay and the work that we need to do is to show people that are creative people, that are people that have various beliefs about politics and culture that there is there is a place and a way forward. And that is hard work. You know, I mean, the church, I've been to the same church for 18 years, we've just become Anglican, which is very popular, very popular. But you know, the talking point about grace for me has always been I love this church, because it's a place where folks on the left and right can come together, and we can meet across political and social difference. But I think at my church as well as a lot of congregations, there's been like what I call like a pressing where folks have left because maybe there's too it's feels too conservative, or it's too progressive. There feels like there's less room for nuance, or for really coming together. And so between that and the pandemic and all of the dynamics that have been brought out about masks and vaccines, it feels like it is very hard to hold a sort of middle ground where you can actually build your life around the fact that you believe in the Creed's you believe in historic Christianity, you have hope in this beautiful faith, but yet have hoped that there's a way forward that actually can be nuanced that just that almost sometimes learn feels impossible, but I still hope and Sunday's choose to hope that there's that there's a path forward. So I think that's what I would tell folks I probably would talk about the church and then personally I would say that, that for me just getting serious about formation, about listening prayer about being quiet, about making sure that I have good practices in place, then good community and folks around me has been has been a pretty big deal in the past few years.
That is so powerful. And I'm gonna hold that. I'm going to hold on to your words that you just shared if it was a myth, it would have disappeared by now. And you're right it's what we're experiencing now is not new, in historical context. And it's not something that is a surprise to God or to Christ. They know and knew that this was all going to happen because the fall of man is not is not new news either. You know, we this is this is we've seen this before. And so you're speaking to spiritual formation, you're speaking to really listening and focusing on on hearing what God has in you and in your heart. So your theological studies are very intriguing to me is is a new and new type of degree that I am not familiar with. So again, this is a degree in the sacred art of writing and the Peterson center. So tell me about that what you're learning and something that's just blowing you and blowing your mind from your studies. I want you to teach me something.
Yeah. Oh, thanks for the program has been awesome. I wasn't looking for a doctoral program. And it's a Doctorate of ministry or demon which my kids think is just howlingly Funny that mom's getting a demon they think that's the best thing ever. But mi n, and it's a program through Western Theological Seminary in Holland, started by when Collier who wrote Eugene Peterson's biography and spend a lot of time with him and really, you know, picked up on the fact that Peterson talks about a rekindling of the imagination as being a real way forward. So there's two cohorts, one's around pastoral care and the other is focused on writing. So I wasn't looking for a program but as a person that oftentimes it's very solitary to be a writer and to do that work, the idea of community and really exploring ideas and reading together just felt really compelling. So it's a low residency program out in Michigan so I just go two times a year and then we have you know, meetings in between on screen and and a lot of reading and so at the end of the two years of the program, you have half about half a book. So I had an idea for a second project and thought, how cool would it be to work on it with other people in this program?
Wow, that's fantastic. I hope that your your children give you all of the credit that is due when I got my doctorate my kids, they were like, No, Mom, you're a nurse. And I was like, Have I not taught my daughters anything about gender equality?
That's when you're in
2019. So my husband's an MD So that does complicate things a little bit. But also the fact that they thought that I was a nurse because I was a female. I was like, I don't feel like I failed my kids.
That's funny. Yeah. So I'll be done. It's about halfway, halfway through they'll be done in about a year and a half. And I'm I'm learning so much in the program. One thing that I've learned about through research, which actually has come up in the writing of the projects I'm doing and a little so it's something that we hadn't talked about in lecture was this idea of, of Shem in Hebrew, which just means name and so I've been thinking about how, you know, I'm teaching my kids to not take the Lord's name in vain like, to not swear, but how really that word like we often think, don't swear when we think about don't take the Lord's name in vain, but really, it's about like God's reputation in the world. And the Bible project, do you know that that podcast or that work is great, it's fantastic. So this is an idea that I was listening to you a little bit on their podcast, but the idea that God's covenant to Abraham held that Jewish people were to be a light to the nations another good example of God's reputation. And when God made a covenant to the Jewish people, what we kind of missed is that God put His reputation at stake. And so Israel acting unethically is like an arrow to other nations that God isn't the true God and like a real example of God's name being taken and then so that's kind of blew me away a little bit.
Wow, I love that. I was actually reading that concept on your sub stack. So this is a little plug for for you and your website and you've got a substack newsletter called bitter scroll. That people can subscribe to, right?
Yeah, I try to I try to put it up once a month if I can get my act together, but yeah, that's right. It's called bitter scroll. It runs on staff. I really love being there. Instagram has been a wonderful way to grow community but in terms of more having space for more depth, real ideas or concepts I've really appreciated that that space.
That's good. That's really good. Well, Sarah billups.com You guys can head over there and and subscribe to her newsletter. It's great and I agree with you I love I love subscribing to people's to people's newsletters there because I get I get that fuller picture you know of you don't have this limited amount of characters and you can just do a lot more with deeper ideas that deserve more nuance. Yeah. So I want to give you space to share why you're sticking around. And I know that we've talked I know that. We talked about this done today, but there are there are a number of people listening to this podcast. who are trying to figure out if they can hold on. Right they have they have been ousted by their families for radical ideas about Jesus or they have been made to be enemies of the church because they've brought critiques to her. And I think there are some really incredibly good hearted people who love the Lord with abandon, but are feeling really isolated. And that speaks to your title of your book right orphan believers. Why are you sticking around and what's holding you steadily tethered? To a walk with Christ?
Yeah, thanks, Lauren. Um, my mind's going in 12 different directions. That the truth is I think that sometimes an event will close I mean, I prayed the center's prayer when I was three, and a big overstuffed chair in my living room. I then asked Jesus into my heart just about every night for about 10 years after that, just to be sure I was saved. There's such a I think a lot of us that grew up in the evangelical tradition grew up with a big focus on a conversion moment and then a sort of salvation experience that you can point back to and say this was the moment. I think that that is like, feel logically consistent to make a choice for Jesus and like can be a beautiful and true thing. But somehow, that kind of focus shifts the whole gaze of our walk as Christians to kind of an individualized gaze, which is a really easy thing. For consumerism and individual choice and autonomy, to kind of latch on to, but the idea of like the community of faith of holding each other up of carrying each other is is such a beautiful thing that at first has felt some little uncomfortable to me and then began to feel quite liberating. There have been seasons of my life where I've been doubting and I feel like my husband, I mean, what a gift to have a spouse that's in a similar place, a partner that believes similar things, but I think that Drew has held me up for a little while. I think that we can carry each other, which is why I would also again, point to church if the thing about church is that there's no perfect church, and even if you find the best trips ever, you can still criticize it pretty quickly. I mean, church is a place where you don't get to decide who you're good at church. It's not like brunch where you can curate a list you end up being with folks that maybe you like, maybe you don't, but you end up loving and knowing in this way, there's just such a lack of control that like in health, I think that church or even just a person in our lives, and kind of help carry us in and keep us going. So that idea has been really beautiful. The other things I'm thinking about our how if, if life if we're given the gift of long life, there were about 10 years when I walked through what I would call a spiritual desert or a season of real spiritual dryness like if my light was under a bushel it was like almost stuffed snuffed out under the bowl. You know, it was it was a very interesting time where I was working in alternative media and had a column and an all weekly was writing about food and reporting on the restaurant industry. I was working for a publisher. I had a very cool kind of Seattle life and a professional life where I was would walk downtown every day and and then walk back to Capitol Hill where we lived and we would go to church on Sundays. And so I got to be where my professional life and my like six day a week life did not holistically reflect what I believed and it became very conflicting and so I guess I would just say if, if folks feel like it's hard to kind of square or reconcile the holistic life of talking about your faith when that's complicated with the rest of what you do that you know, there's an immense again, liberation and freedom that can come when you put your hands in the air and say it's like not about me because looking back, I was scared, I was protecting myself. I was kind of self aggrandizing my own identity needing to maintain who I was and was afraid that I'd be ghosted if people knew my identity. So I think the other thing I would say, besides the fact that we can carry each other is to try to sort of dare to move into a wholehearted and holistic faith that's really integrated. And the only way I've been able to do that is because God is good. It's not about us, and prayer can really change things spiritual direction. Contemplative Christian practices have been important for me like the examine and black do Divina those other pieces have really helped me connect with more of the historically as well.
Yeah, I love that. And those are tools that I didn't have in my toolbox growing up and and, you know, with as someone who has been through the deconstruction process, and as now really trying to reconstruct, those tools are so critical for us as we're hearing from the Lord and understanding specifically and us and how he is being missional and pursuing us and our hearts. Those that examine and Lectio Divina Divina practices I like to help the praises of Lexia 365 It's on my phones, like what centers me in the morning and at night and yeah, those contemplative practices allow us to stop and say, you know, Lord, what are you what are you doing to make me more like your son? I love that you pointed back to that. conversion experience and how we've idolized that moment that we became a Christian. But man, the sanctification process is where I think the church is in the state that it's in because we have idolized conversion over sanctification and and that upward trajectory towards God. And his person and as is maybe something that has not been as important to us in our ideological standing and maybe that's why we are where we are right now.
Yeah, that's so well said. Amen. My goodness. Yeah, I feel like there's so much more to say and I my mind still going in so many different directions. But yeah, I think, right. And I just asked this question, to focus on substance like how do you so you know, this recording the week that Trump has announced his third candidacy for president, I decided to make a lasagna and not listen to the announcement because I feel like it's gonna help and
I loved it, and it looks so good. I wanted to get on a plane and fly to Seattle.
And I think that looking back and reflecting I mean, I think a talking point, sometimes the focus is like, and I think this is true, but people say Oh, well, how can the church really combat nationalism when folks are listening to Fox News six days a week and then are in church for an hour on Sundays? Like I think that's a little I'm not sure if that's totally true, but I think that the the idea if there's other accountability in someone's life, but the idea that we are certainly consuming news all the time, and how that's proportioned in my own life to spiritual practice is certainly something that I've been taking a hard look at. And, you know, I'm I want to be honest, and admit that the last time around with the election, I mean, I was probably refreshing the New York Times or whatever I was reading, I don't know a dozen times a day, I would probably check I mean, to the point where, like, what what could possibly happen that I would miss there was just a real unhealthy balance. So I'm just encouraging folks starting with myself to be really intentional about waiting to check news or thinking about how that affects you at night. When you're winding down. Because I think that it kind of like kind of like wedges into our spirits. Sometimes we can kind of like take over tip the balance into anxiety we're defensiveness or judgment as opposed to to being you know, non anxious and having our hands open to a healthy indifference. And saying like, God is good, and God is in control. So that's something that I think we can try to do. At least folks like me a little bit earlier on this time. Well, I
think that's so great as we're leading into another election cycle, I mean, ironically on you know, the week after we just finished one but, um, you know, as we're entering and I know exactly what you're saying and feeling like I needed to check to see what was going on because it felt like the name of my lord was being defamed every single day and being being used in a way that was unhealthy, and I felt the need to be protective for some reason that it put me into this very negative, negative headspace from always needing to see what had happened that I didn't agree with or didn't align with. And, and I think that's a great, helpful reminder for us, since we're going into the next season. That's going to happen again, and how do we plant our feet and steadfastness and in in our own confidence that nothing new is going to happen that hasn't happened before but that the name of the Lord is going to remain and he will not be defamed like he will not you will not lose. We just may have to wait a little while for His glory. To be really revealed to His people.
Yeah, Amen.
That's right. Well, I feel like we need to do this again. Like we like this should have been a three part three part podcast with you. I'm so thrilled about your new book. I hope that the launch goes great, and I hope that I will get to see you somewhere in a conference speaking or sharing about it. I really feel like it's a perfect timing and a great gift to all of us who were trying to hold on.
Thank you so much, Lauren. It's been such a treat to talk with you and I feel like I could talk talk to you all day. So thank you very much. It's great. Thanks, Sara. Thank you.
Thank you so much for listening in and we are always eager to hear from you as you process these nuanced topics. Shoot me an email at lauren@kindredexchange.org or find me on Instagram at @upwardlydependant of course I always welcome your honest reviews on whatever platform you're listening to this podcast. Or you can engage with us on our Kindred Exchange Instagram at @kindred.exchange. Just do me one favor, as we process and grow together stay rooted in truth that you know is absolute and that is the fact that we are finite beings and therefore rely on something much bigger than ourselves. That's what the Upwardly Dependent life is all about.
