I want to help as many people as possible, you know, realize their dreams and get a good job. That's that's what I'm all about, about helping young people as much as I possibly can.
Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host Ryan Willard and today I'm joined by Ray Sherry, the esteemed CEO of Zen limited and innovative organization dedicated to empowering Gen Z, promoting youth initiatives and fostering an environment free from discrimination and empowering them to be able to develop their careers and find the jobs of their dreams. With an impressive career spanning for four decades across financial services, and consulting with a background and focus on technology, Ray has amassed a wealth of experience and insight he holds a Bachelor of Science in computing from the prestigious list Lesley University. And in 2022, arrays visionary leadership was recognized with the coveted Best digital StartUp Award, a testament to his exceptional contribution to the digital landscape. Remarkably, Ray's achievements are underscored by his resilience and dedication. In March 2021, he underwent a liver transplant, a life altering event, following a long standing condition profoundly moved by the knowledge that his organ donor was a young man, Ray has since committed himself to a noble cause helping young people discover and pursue careers that resonate with their unique talents and aspirations. In this episode, Ray and I discuss the genesis of Zen and we talk about the problems with modern day recruitment agencies, and the problems that young people face in the job market. And we also look behind the scenes of housing empowers young people with both training and recruitment possibilities, and we talk about the possible applications for this platform within the architectural space. So sit back, relax and enjoy. Ray sherry. This podcast is produced by Business of Architecture, a leading business consultancy for architects and design professionals. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it without the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner, or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support at business of architecture.com. Ray, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm great, Ryan, thank you very much. Thank you very much for inviting me along today.
My absolute pleasure, very excited to have you on the show. So a little bit of a different conversation or you're in a different field, if you'd like to perhaps once on my usual guests. You're the chief executive officer of Zend, which is a staffing and recruitment organization, quite an innovative one. And I'm always fascinated with the kind of world of recruitment and particularly how it interacts with an industry like architecture. I know architects, you know, in the UK, certainly in the US in the US, they've been having a real difficult time of recruiting in the UK, it's been not so bad, but it's certainly it's still been very, very challenging. And certainly in the world of architecture, bringing on people the using of recruitment agencies, there's there's quite a big mix of them. And you're it's not it's not difficult to find architects complaining about recruitment and, and staffing either working with agencies or the whole process itself. So welcome to the show. And perhaps you could we could start off by you giving us a little bit of background into how you came to be the CEO of Sindh Sure,
It'd be my pleasure, sort of my career if you like just started 40 years ago in technology, like many students came out of university got pretty lucky got into my first job quickly and joined a major bank here in the UK as a as a software engineer. And I had a very, very well developed career path for the first five to 10 years of my my career journey. And from then on, it was more up to me to decide and take control of my career and decide what I wanted to do and how I wanted to to develop myself over time and I moved around To get sort of more experience, try out different skills, work with different people grow my network, and so forth. And then eventually, I moved into senior positions, both in banking and consultancy, and, and then ended up in the startup and the growth business industry. As a chief technology officer, or, you know, I did my time in projects, I did my time and service, I did my time in leadership and management, and so forth, and eventually found the thing that I really, really, really enjoyed. But I was always harboring ideas about helping people giving back to society, you know, for decades in tech. And I always felt that I should be giving back and for a number of years, I've been sort of keeping this idea in my head about helping young people, but I wasn't really sure about what I would do and how I would do it. And then, to cut a long story short, in March 2021, at the height of the pandemic, here in the UK, I had a liver transplant. And again, long story short, I had been diagnosed 1516 years earlier with a with a rare condition, rare liver disease, and knew that I would need a transplant at some point. Well, we just weren't sure when that would be. And I don't I don't think anyone would pick the middle of a pandemic or at the height of a pandemic to have a major operation. But that's, that's the way very heartfelt and I took it Yeah, it was very scary, even to the extent that the hospital that had me on their waiting lists for an organ had to close for a period of time because of COVID. And I was shifted around the country, into other hospitals and then eventually brought back to the one in London, an organization called Royal fria. Hope you don't mind me mentioning them, they do a brilliant job.
So good luck. Gosh, I just just only imagine the the anxiety around that. I mean, it's, it's scary enough just having a liver transplant, let alone that that time in COVID, when it was so unknown.
Yeah, very much. The one thing that was really good about the Royal Free Hospital was the fact that the the units for transplants were isolated pretty much from everything else. So you could walk in one door, and never see another person other than the medical team, until it was time for you to go for your transplant. So we were well protected, I was well protected and didn't have any engagement with anybody else through that whole process until until that last moment. And I have to say, you know, thinking back, and I talked about it quite a lot to people, it was very much a spiritual moment. And I'll explain what I mean by that a little bit later on as well. So I had to transplant and it went very, very successfully. And literally, within a couple of days, I was awake, I was back in a ward and feeling great, you know, the color of my skin had turned from my regular orange color. And it looked like it'd been in a great part of Spain for a number of months to a normal pinkish color as you as you might see now, and that in itself was amazing. Just to have that sense of looking normal was incredible. And I have a really have a tangerine picture of me stored away in my mouth photo album, which I sometimes refer to to remind me where I came from.
Was it a type of jaundice from Yes, it
was jaundice. Yeah, bilirubin is the ability that is the actual protein in the body that causes you to turn yellow, orange. Basically, I my boiler room level was 10 times when it should have been 10 times it was to the point where if the transplant hadn't gone ahead, I was a goner, because the bilirubin then begins to muck with the brain. And cause of course, neural problems. As a consequence, I was hanging in there. And thankfully, luckily for me, I had, I had a had a donor at the 11th hour who saved Unfortunately, my donor died. But he went on to help seven other people with his organ donation, which, which is incredible, you know, the courage of the person to do that is just phenomenal and to be supported by the family, even more. So. Two days after the transplant, I found out that my daughter was a young man. I know his name, I'm not going to mention his name, just out of respect for his family, etc. But I knew that he was a young man. And it sort of it resonated with me that I'd been thinking about helping young people for some time. And here I am my life saved by a young person. So I thought from that day on, I thought to myself, I need to do something I need to put my foot forward, my best bring forward and I need to sort of get on and do something to help young people. So literally within I think within two days after that, that sort of Eureka moment. I decided that I would set up a new company, and I would start detailing. zint as far as I could go With the view then to getting a portal developed and getting a load of services for young people developed and launched online. And that's what I did. That's what I did. And I'm very pleased where we where we've got to, at this point in time, and I'm very pleased that I'm now helping us hundreds of young people in the memory of my donor.
Wow, amazing. Before you had set up, Xin did you need to continue to work.
I was working continually. Anyway, as an interim chief technology officer, I've sort of been fortunate to be able to pick and choose job opportunities for some time now, given the demands on my particular skill set. So I'd been working as showroom CTO for a while, two days, three days a week, etc. But I knew that to be able to deliver the end and really bring it to market, I needed to focus on it. So I packed everything that I was doing with technology and switch my attention to Zen and the technology that was involved in Zen.
Right, right, gotcha. Amazing. So what was the first things that you needed to do to set up the platform? And did you have to work in investors and raise finance? How did the How did the kind of the technological component develop? And then how did the business component develop?
Yeah, I'm gonna use I'm going to use a word that I'm sure you use commonly on your podcast shows is that I had to architect finding, finding investors. So effectively, I had to go to the right forums, the right network meetings, and approach the right people to be able to get investment. And I secured the investment after three months of looking, I happened to bump into two people, two very lovely people at a product event, a software product event in London, they had gone along, just out of interest out of curiosity, and we were just sat next to each other, I mean, next to each other, it was such a coincidence. And we formed, we formed a relationship. And literally within three months, the company was set up, the investment was was in the bank account, and we were up and running. Fantastic.
And so what was some of the innovations or the thinking behind what you wanted to do, but the thing that makes it different from your usual recruitment platforms,
I don't know what to what extent your your your followers and your listeners have, have themselves, experienced the job market, but most people will tell you, irrespective of where they are on that journey, whether they're new to the market, or whether they've been in the market for a number of years. The one thing that comes out consistently loud and clear, is the lack of feedback. And there's lots of reasons why employers or recruiters don't do the feedback, the primary one is it takes a lot of time. You know, you get 1000 people applying for a job. And you've only got two jobs, that's 999 people that you know, are hungry for feedback, that the market just doesn't accommodate that type of volume of feedback in a way that is efficient and productive to all parties. So that was really number one. I think the second the second challenge that we had was that we wanted to create something that was just beyond looking for a job, we wanted to be able to give young people in fact, anybody looking for a job the opportunity to upskill and train and learn and develop whilst they were looking for a job or whilst they were in a job. You know, I have huge respect for for employers and the challenges that they face running, running a business myself. You can't always keep your promises, you can't always deliver the upskilling training courses that that you may have said in one year and taken away the next year, you can't always do that things, things change. So to help employers, we wanted to provide the opportunity for their current employees to be able to joins in and take advantage of all the training courses that we have online, even if they're not looking for a job. And we've managed to do that we have access to 14,000 training courses online, many of which are accredited through our training partner. That was the second thing is this. Yeah, I think the third thing was the market is very resume or CV dependent heavily. I mean, this is a this is a process that's been running for decades. And it's still based on paper, primarily, and I know there have been innovations within the marketplace around AI and around workflow and automation. But we're fun Demand is still working off a paper format, a PDF or a Word document. So we wanted to challenge that we wanted to move away from paper, we wanted to be able to move to effectively a data driven solution. And because we because we use data, we can we can match people with the requirements of employers much more quickly, we can do it literally within a few seconds, a few milliseconds. And that allows us at the same time to provide instant feedback to the to the job seeker as well, that changes the dynamic, what that changes what what we can now do with that data.
And, you know, I think it's quite interesting. When I speak to a lot of men, primarily, I speak to a lot of employers about hiring, and how expensive it is how long it takes. Certainly now in the architecture industry, it's becoming ever increasingly more challenging. There's a distrust of recruiting agencies, or some of the old kind of classic recruitment agencies the amount of money that it costs to hire somebody, and then you have all these kinds of iffy practices where the recruiter is, you know, on the one hand, bringing you in employees, and then on the other hand, they're courting your staff, to entice them out, and, you know, Parliament off to another, another company, if you like, and we've heard so many stories of that, that there's there's been a lot of, certainly within architects, I don't know what it's like in other industries. But I would imagine there's a similar sort of complaint, there's a there's a distrust with the recruitment, recruitment world. And the I guess the other part of it is that the kind of level of transparency and how the mechanisms are working, and also the, you know, the, the making sure it's a right fit. So that can that would be another kind of complaint that I hear from architects telling me about recruitment agencies is that the Fit doesn't seem right, or, you know, we've been given somebody who's, after a few months, it doesn't work out, how does Zinn kind of navigate some of that complexity?
I mean, I alluded, I alluded to the fact that, that we use data driven profiles, so where, where we're driving the matching process, you know, the almost the faking type process in the backgrounds through data. And we're using criteria that's set by the employer. And the same skills taxonomy is used by our members, or by our RS indicts, as we call them. So because we're using the same language, we can match in a common way. So when an employer says I want three people with these skills, we've got people on the other side, who are showing on their profile, that they've got those skills, and we verified them, we actually verify the skills because we do insist on putting people through a certain amount of training, so that they can at least say that they've been through some sort of development to attain that skill, even though they may not have practiced it very well, widely. That's why they need to work. But at least we've given them some sort of foundation in problem solving. So you're in a world that's going like this is just completely mismatching all the time. So we needed to simplify that, first of all, and we needed to say, how much data do we need to be able to match a person with an employer. Now by matching by matching skills, we're increasing the likelihood that an employer will find the right person, and that the employer will be able to keep that person with better retention over time. It's not as simple as saying, I'll just match with that person. And they're going to be the perfect employee and never leave us that employees still going to want the upscaling the developments, the career path planning and so forth now, and that's why we we wanted to help the employers further by giving them the option. Yeah, recruit through zand. Find the right people, but also use and to be able to take advantage, the training that's available, it won't cost you anything. Because that's payable by the member effectively. Now.
Do employers still put out like a job application or a job notice if you like, and then people are browsing? Or is it more that, you know, once there are two active users on the platform, the system is kind of linking them up together. And it's kind of like look at this person. And it's more like a matchmaking type of tool. How does it work from the side employer?
Yeah, so So the employer has two options for finding the right people or the right person. They can create a job posting in in a sort of a more or traditional way. And they can submit that job post into a job board, which is internal to the gin platform, we help them with creating a job post because we provide them with the skills for the particular role that they're looking for. So if they put in their software engineer training, we'll provide them from our database, the skills that supports that role, okay, they don't really have to do an awful lot, they may want to add more in terms of roles and responsibilities to that description. But once they've done that, and they put the closing day in, like, like a normal job posts submitted, it appears to the to the Zend world to the zine club world. So everyone who's looking for that type of job will will actually see it, that's the first way they can do it. So they're familiar with that approach. And also, our members are familiar with that approach as well. The second feature that we give the employers is a direct talent pool search, or it and this is replicating what recruitment agencies have. So when a recruitment agency gets free from an employer, or a client, what they'll do is they'll they'll set that criteria up on their database. And they'll run that search. And that will find as many matching people as there is on their database, we're giving the employer that feature that facility so they can do the Talent Search themselves, the end result is the same for on the on the job posting, people apply. So it's, it's, it's what we call a pull on the Talent Search, it's actually a push type feature. And there are subtle differences between the two in the sense that when someone applies for a job, they're effectively giving their right for you to access their information, as long as you pay the fees. When it's an employer approaching someone through a talent search, we actually have to comply with the data privacy regulations. And ask your member, are they are they willing to give consent to talk with that employer? Okay, so we have the right side of the law. Yeah, we have to treat treat them as if we were marketing to them, and ask for consent every single time, basically. So yeah, the employees got to one feature that they're really familiar with in terms of job posts and job board markets. And the and the one that the will not be given by a recruitment agency, is the direct Talent Search, and all of that, all of that both on the employer side and on the member side, is is effectively summarized through a dashboard that the member has, they can see it.
Amazing. So when the employer is doing the Talent Search, are they looking through effectively anonymous profiles. So you they don't know the kind of personal details of the individual, but they're looking at the skill sets and the talents and the experience, and then they can kind of earmark, you know what this guy looks, or this lady looks amazing. And then they can send a message. And then if the if that person wants to get in contact or have further details released to them, that's what happens.
That's exactly yeah, we give, we give them, we give them members, all of our young people, anyone that signs up to zoom club, we give them a xinda nickname, it's a unique name to them, which keeps them anonymous, in terms of their private information. And it's only when the employer gets that consent, well, we actually and then pay the online fee that we levy with them, while they actually get the ability to connect. So we have to protect, we have to protect the young people from effectively being bombarded by employers. So that's why we asked for consent, but it is also a legal requirement to do that.
Gotcha. Gotcha. That That in itself, yeah, is very, is very innovative. How many users do you have at the moment? And in which kinds of industries are you finding are using the platform the most? Or do you think could benefit from the platform the most?
Well, so we launched so actually, both parties pay, so the member pays, and the employer pays typically, but because we launched in March, we're an offering membership for free to the to the to the young people, so they can join without any barriers whatsoever. And we will continue to do that for for as long as we can sustain that such a bit. Eventually, we expect to be able to levy a fee to the members because they'll see the value in what they're getting an infinite list of training, career path planning, access to jobs, viability, tracking industry information, there's a whole range of things. You know, just getting the feedback is invaluable to members because they don't get that from anywhere else today. Nowhere provides feedback other than zento. So the types of so we've got 100 and we so we started the mighty quiet March, April, boom, we then went spend some time with a university, we got 50 members, literally that day joined up, signed up. We've now trebled that, in in, in June. And the trend we've seen already, because we get people contacting us is that we will probably double that again in July as we go forward. The sorts of roles that are particularly interesting to people is mostly around technology. At the moment, we get some creative industry, which is around things like podcasting, and things like film production, gaming, that type of thing, we get some interest around that as well. But it's mostly technology, technology, it's the most active fields. And industry, when it comes to young people at the moment, they're all looking for technology related jobs. It's, it's incredible. Even if someone's done geography or history, they're looking for something to get them into technology. And we see that we see that very clearly we have, we have about 35, individual technology roles at three levels on the platform. And obviously we're looking at entry level for for for students and graduates. So so you'll see more entry level roles, but there are there are signs that we need to be moving into the green skill space. So we need to be creating opportunities within sustainability within environmental roles within water utilities, this type of thing as well. And that's where the trends are going. Electric vehicles is another one, where there's a growing demand.
It's very interesting, actually, we see a lot of architects migrating from the architectural profession into technology. And a lot of a lot of software companies are often interested in some of the skill sets of, of architects or architectural graduates just to kind of creative skill sets, I mean, architects these days are coming out, and they can code and they've got an understanding and electrical engineering, and they've been building things that have got integrated, you know, software into them. And the kind of architectural mindset, if you like, of being able to go from big picture to very small detailed can be quite useful. There's a lot of parallels there with in software with we're starting to see a lot of that kind of, you know, movement between the industry, which I think is very, very, it's very good, very encouraging. You mentioned as well, that this training component of Sindh, can you tell us a little bit more about that, and in your training partner, and what sorts of trainings are provided?
Yes, so all of the training, so one of the things that one of the things that we that we really wanted to do, as I mentioned before, we wanted to move away from the sole use of a CV or resume, okay, so we only use the CV for lifting existing information from it, as far as we can. But we also, we also use it for finding skills that that are written into that CV, and we use that those skills that we find to match with our taxonomy. Someone might put good at communication. But in our taxonomy, it might say communications. So we will substitute that word with communication so that we're matching a like, for like basis. So one of the things that we've identified from the research that that we carried out, as we were going through the process of setting Zend up was that what are employers looking for? What what are the what are the skills that they want, that young people are not getting as they come out of university, so we identified 12, soft skills that were coming up regularly from employers from market research that employers were looking for, but young people did not have. So we provide 12, essential soft skills training, and it's front and center on the homepage of every member's login, they get the what we call the Zen training courses. And they can just sort of page through scroll through each one and take each one in turn, whatever, whatever order they want. And it includes things like communications, problem solving, critical thinking, creativity, creative problem solving, team working, time management, negotiation, conflict management, so all of the things that you know, more experienced people would probably just take for granted even though I know that a lot of experience people haven't even been through that themselves such. So we provide that essential training. Now what does that do that immediately gives anyone that takes that training a head start against people that don't have those those skills or that particular training knowledge? Okay, so that's, that's key. So that immediately gives them a jumpstart on anybody else that's not on the Zoom platform. The second thing that we provide is a career path. What we can what we do is we ask the member, where are you starting from? Okay, I'm a student, a full time student, and I've got this degree, where do you want to go? Okay, so we asked him what is The next step that you want to take, okay, I want to become a trainee software software engineer, Python, for example is as a language, we then tell them what the skills are that they need to attain to make that step. Okay. And we put that into a visual roadmap on the screen. As they click on each skill that they need to attain, we split soft skills on the left, technical skills. And on the right, as they click on each one, they'll be presented with a lookup for a training course that matches that skill. And usually 99% of the time, the first skill that appears on that list or first training course that appears on that list will be the one that they need to take to be able to attain that particular skill. So we work with a training partner called Alison, an Irish based company, they're based in Cork, who have a philosophy of providing training to people for free, basically, and we hold that we we when we meet that requirement, because we're not charging people for training, we're not charging people for applying for jobs, etc, we're providing them with a whole range of different services, that when you put it all together, we can put a little price on that package as such, okay, so the sorts of training that Stan available is, is huge, it's everything from I know plumbing, to learn about plumbing online, I know you can't learn about all plumbing online, but you can learn some of the theory online nursing, you can learn about engineering, you can learn about technology, you can learn all of the major software languages, you can pick from a DevOps engineer, you can become a business analyst, it's it's a huge range of job opportunities. I think, the last time I looked, there was something like 800 different types of career that was supported through training with our training partner. So it's a it's a vast array. Most of those training courses are accredited to our training partner as well. So if you, if you take the training course, if you pass the training course you can, then you can also get a certificate to confirm that you've taken it as well.
That's how you're working with this
language. So I was going to mention the languages as well, there is a huge demand. For English language, we get a lot of we get a lot of international students who have already landed in the UK that wants to learn and improve their English. And our training partner provides I think it's 12 different English language courses from a one through two, I think it's B three level, which is expert level, with all the accreditations in between as well. And I think the 64 different languages that we can provide online. So if you want to learn Spanish and your England, English, fluent, you want to improve your holiday language, you can do that through zoom club, you don't you don't have to go anywhere else. It's all there in one place. And maybe
I'll sign up for that trip my Spanish. Maybe you should. That's quite a that's quite incredible. That's actually you know, because it's actually, you know, there as a resource for for people, as opposed to simply just finding work actually training people up. Have you started working with architects yet? Do you have many architecture clients? Are you what or what parts of the construction industry? Are you working with? Or have you seen take, start to utilize and yet,
we haven't yet gone into the architecture industry as yet. We are in the architecture of technology, unlike earlier on, there is a there is a beautiful crossover between architecture in it's like building services. The other way, it's not so easy, I think from a technology perspective to go into the to the Business of Architecture itself. But it works well. And we are seeing we are seeing an increasing set of requests for building services, and product design. From an engineering perspective. A number of members have joined and said, You know, when are you going to be able to offer opportunities in that space. And it's a gradual, organic growth thing, you know, as we as we work with employers, the employers give us the job opportunities, then we can post them or they can sort of the employees will post the jobs, and then begin to look for those people doesn't stop us from helping people who are sort of in between. There's one was one guy in particular who joined who joins in club recently. And he took advantage of the Zin coach facility we offer a coaching facility as well, which is which is which is included in what we do. It's not an additional service that we offer and then charge you know, extortionate fees. We don't do that. We it's there to help people make the right career choices. So they can they can book a session with a gym coach 30 minutes at a time it's included. And then we can work with them to build as in reaction plan is effectively a tool that they can use to really bring focus to their job hunting. So in this particular guy's he, he wanted to become a product engineer. And we talked it through, we put together the career path plan for him offline, because it's a coaching career path plan with which he needs to action in full. And he's very happy. He's working through that. And it's, it's really helping him. And it's not rocket science. If you're interested in three or four particular companies and you're interested in a particular type of role. You need to just research those companies, you need to reach out to those companies, you need to follow those companies really get to understand a little bit about them, put all of this in your action plan, so you remember what you've already done. And then you can document the next step. So we're using that offline tool as a coaching aid to help people that are sort of sat in between at the moment, but it is coming, that is coming. We will be introducing new industries over time.
Amazing. Well, I would, I'd love to encourage our audience here of architecture practice owners to reach out to you and Zenden to start utilizing a platform like this, I think that would be very well needed for the architecture industry. If people want to engage with Zend, or interact with it or see what the platform is about what's the best way for them to do that.
Best way is just to go to our portal, the URL for the portal, the web address for the portal is Zynga, platform.com, Zed, y nd platform.com. Basically, just go there and follow follow what's on the screen. If if anyone wants to contact me directly, just right to re@zynga.co.uk. And just just state what you're asking, I'm a very accessible, very open person, I want to help as many people as possible, you know, realize their dreams and get a good job. That's that's what I'm all about, about helping helping young people as much as I possibly can. And if I have to give stuff away to make that happen, then I will do it. It's as simple as that we're in a world it's very challenging today, there is a lot of information out there for young people to pick and, and select. Sometimes they just need to be focused on doing the right things in the right order. And they'll get results as a consequence of that. And I'll even, I'll even throw in some free memberships for your your followers and your listeners as well, Brian, and I quite happily offer 200 free memberships through through your podcast to anyone that wants to take advantage of obviously in club for the next year, I'll have a special code, I'll email you a special code that people can use. Amazing.
So that's very, very generous. But what put all this information into the into the podcast details on the platform. So if you're listening to this, no driving in the car at the moment, make sure that you pull over immediately copy and paste the links. But right that's the perfect place to conclude the conversation. Very generous of you today with that, and also with your your time and just telling us your amazing story and all about Xin, thank you so much.
Thank you very much as well, Ryan been a great pleasure talking with you. And I hope we can do it again. They say in a year's time or nine months time, whatever whenever it feels right. And hopefully I'm giving you numbers in the 1000s. And we're changing lives makes me very proud of what we're doing.
I love it. I would love to do that. And that's a wrap. And one more thing. If you haven't already, please do head on over to iTunes or Spotify. And leave us a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. And we'd love to get your feedback. And we'd love to hear what it is that you'd like to see more of and what you love about the show already. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you. Please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners. We hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it without the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner, or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month interested in becoming a sponsor. Please send us an email at support at business of architecture.com The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation promise guarantee pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you the unstoppable
