Hey friends, we're mixing things up as we close out season five of the podcast by sharing some of our favorite combos that Becky and I've had guesting on other people's podcasts.
We had the great honor of joining our friends, Tim Lockie and Tracy Kronzak on their amazing podcast, Why IT Matters, be sure to subscribe to it and add it to your queue. But in this episode, we dive into why and how we can humanize our actions and lead with values, as well as why leading with values is becoming increasingly important for the next generation of nonprofit leaders.
We hope you enjoy.
Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started.
Hey, everybody, Tim and I are super excited to have you joining us for another episode of why it matters. This is our first crossover episode ever with We Are For Good. I coined it internally as the Simpsons meets Futurama, I'll let you decide which one of us is which.
Futurama.
I was thinking Simpsons, but I'll go for either. And, you know, we are delighted to have Becky and Jonathan with us today. And we're also delighted to have you with us today, as always. So I wanted to dive right into the conversation and say both of you, and We Are For Good have become a tour de force in the nonprofit eco world or ecosystem in a very short period of time, what I call the impact economy, what folks call nonprofits, and you've done so in a way that I call non toxic optimism. And that is your work. And your interviews give people a little bit more levity to their day and a little bit more hope in their work than they started with when they start listening to it. And that's a thread that goes through a lot of what you're offering the nonprofit ecosystem right now. What I would like to start with is was that always your vision? Were you always like, Let's do non toxic optimism, or did you have sort of a different journey to get to where you are that would be really interesting for our listeners to hear. Bearing in mind a lot of our listeners are industry leaders who are possibly thinking about doing their own thing for their own business.
I mean, wow, first, thank you. We we love both of you dearly in this time to get spend together is like we've been looking forward to it for weeks. So thank you for the space and the time. And I mean, yeah, I guess it has been always in our DNA. It's definitely not an act. You know, I think Becky and I found each other. Gosh, 20 years ago, she hired me as an intern walking into the marketing office of the OSU foundation. I was wearing a tie that day because I thought I need to impress. And there was Becky Endicott, you know, and we hit it off.
Didn't know what she was doing, P.S. Let's talk about that imposter syndrome.
Yeah. But I mean, she seemed to have it all together. I mean, she's leading a marketing department that was about to embark on a billion dollar fundraising campaign. And she was in her early 20s. And here, you know, I came in as the graphic designer. And I do think we were starry eyed optimists. But we both just really like loved the idea of philanthropy. And there's definitely parts of our story that we got burnt out from a lot of aspects of it. But I think both of us are just the type that I mean, we could sit around and creatively brainstorm of going back to this moment when we're when we're thinking of annual reports, and how can we storytel this and we got so excited, you know, March of the Penguins was really big, we're like, we're gonna do March of the donors, then this needs to be like, this thing. The enthusiasm was real, you know, it's like, we truly just loved what it did from a transformational aspect. I think we just believed in the power of philanthropy. And that has been a very common thread. And so it's easy to show up and just celebrate that on the daily because we truly do love it.
And I just think that we're both products of extreme privilege. And we came from homes where we were deeply loved and we had great opportunities afforded to us in our life. And Jon and I have always called ourselves ridiculous idealist and we're just naturally optimistic about things we see the good and the possibility and so much, which I really probably do harken back to a lot of that just feeling very nurtured and loved. And I don't know there's something I think as disarming as it can be to just attack someone on social media, I think it's just as disarming to come in and love somebody really well. And it just feels like a very tenuous time in the world. And we've all been through a traumatic life event with a pandemic, no matter how it hit you. And I think the divisiveness of the world just seems kind of at an apex. And we just thought, here are the humans doing the greatest work in the world, they are pouring themselves into purpose. Whether you're the one that's funding something, whether you're the beneficiary, whether you're the nonprofit staffer, it's like for all everyone to come in and understand the symbiotic nature of how we need each other, to help more good into the world, we think we can do it more effectively if we take the ego out. And if we take our personal agendas out, and if we can all just kind of harmonize and center around the thing that gives us all purpose, the thing that breaks our hearts, the thing that gets us up in the morning, then man, we can scale so much faster, accelerate so much faster. And people want to do that in community and when you can love on them and community, they keep coming back when you're vulnerable when you're authentic. They see themselves in that and so naturally, I think the I'm cracking up at the non toxic, hilarious positivity. But I just think I love to love on people. I'm an I'm an Enneagram two, deep empath. So it is as much selfish for me to do that. And I love that it's kind of become this shucks, Oklahoma hallmark of our company, it was not intentionally planned, it's just kind of how we are.
And I'll say too like we, you know, we had a business plan, like we had unreal, entrepreneurial wired. And so what we're for good was gonna be took a lot of different kind of paths over the years. But as we started to hone in, and we finally made the jump, and we could tell that story, but you know, we sat down in Becky's kind of bonus room, like kind of staring at each other, like, what did we just do? Like we're like, about to, like, have this, you know, moment when we're going to start the company. And Becky literally started with writing a love letter to philanthropy. And we sat down and circled out what are our core values. And we like we started from that place, and it started to fall into place as we like, live those out, not in a self aggrandizing way it just like it felt right. And being a nonprofit, there's so much scarcity, you know, and I think we love this place. And so things that you love, you want the opposite of scarcity, you want abundance, you want to give it the best that you've got, and all those levels. And I think that's how we presented to wanting to reflect back to the industry that's so grossly underserved on every level. Often, we wanted to kind of do the opposite of that in the way that we show up. So it feels over the top. But at the same time, it's like a love letter back to the industry that we really do love. And there's a lot of incredible people that are pouring their heart and soul and expertise and creativity into it. So it's kind of come from that spot.
That makes a bundle of sense to me, I think I will, I will share something personally and then I will use it to pivot to Jonathan, something you just said and that is, you know, one of our staffers here Now It Matters, which is sort of the parent of Why IT Matters in a lot of ways I think out, you know, Joanie Brian talked a lot about vulnerability and did so in a way that really drew attention to the need to focus on under resourced communities in technology, and use your own life journey as an example of what is the power of change, when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable? And, you know, without our own egos involved in the circumstance, and it is that point of what is without our own egos involved, because tell me more about that love letter to philanthropy. Because I have seen in my own world, way too many times where really good ideas get kind of shunted by the wayside because of ego because of the inability for a leader in specific but more broadly, businesses and organizations to want to be vulnerable and have two way conversations with their constituents or customers. So tell me more about that letter. And what was in that and what made it a love letter.
I mean, I think it was just one of those nights where I had two glasses of wine, I'm all up in my head about our business. And I really was just thinking about the, the miracles that we're so privileged to get to watch unfold in this space. And, uh, you mentioned you know, under resource communities and I sit there and think nonprofit is an under resourced community. It is a community that has not had money poured into it. It's not allowed to scale and innovate because that quote unquote, takes away from the beneficiary, we're taught to not value our mental health because you just gotta make it work. You had a you work in a nonprofit, therefore, you sacrifice. And it was kind of a, hey, they're the greatest human beings, the most creative human beings, the most heartwired human beings in the sector. What would happen if we did the exact opposite of creating scarcity? What if we threw abundance into this sector, and so what what was expressed in that letter was really our dreams of what we've seen on the very tip of that iceberg on the fringes of Once you allow someone to scale to dream to go for it, to try stuff, to innovate, to use tech, you know, to get a, a normal salary, a living salary to work, you know, a living wage to not feel like while you're giving birth, you need to be on your phone, which we talked to somebody the other day, who was like, literally, in the birthing process, trying to talk about how do I wind down these projects in nonprofit. And the stories like that are so shocking to people, and they're happening every single day in your pet charities. And so our love letter to nonprofit was really expressed about what we see, and we believe in the power of good, we believe that philanthropy is very much a sacred space. We believe creativity bring stories to life, like nothing else, we believe in the power of mission baked in mission based work. And finally, we just believe in big ideas, and disruption. And then we just kind of rounded it all off with we think that kindness is a superpower. And it's one that people don't use. And to your point about vulnerability, you will never, ever be able to fully connect with your audience. From a marketing standpoint, from a sales standpoint, from a messaging standpoint, if you do not bring vulnerability, and the hallmark of Gen X, a lot of our millennials, I'm even I said Gen X, Gen Z. But even Gen X who I am, I'm born in the 70s. I still value kindness, I still value things that move my heart. And so we think it's actually one of the great disarming tools that exists right now. And it is so prevalent in nonprofit, and we're ready to flip those scripts, and watch our nonprofit friends run once they understand that they are worthy of that.
That's amazing. Thank you, I think, you know, one of the things that makes it hard to serve nonprofits is the configuration of all of those issues that you just talked about. And you are talking about a community of folks who never actually get the opportunity to just have Greenfield ideas and run with them nine times out of 10. So what needs to change in the meta structures around nonprofits that can afford folks that opportunity, I think is a really important point to call out to our listeners. That and I miss the 70s immeasurably. My goodness, I miss them so much.
My 11 year olds into 70s music and it is just bringing me life these days.
It just opens your heart when you hear like the Eagles and the Steve Miller Band. Ah this is wonderful.
I mean, I do think there is some shifts that have to happen. And I mean, obviously, with everything negative that came through the pandemic, I think it helped a lot of ways of kind of speeding some processes that could have taken another 10 years to make happen in the nonprofit space. So I think there's been some beginning work, but with everything, it's got to start with, like the mindsets. And I think there's a lot of people in leadership positions that have old mindsets, you know, we've worked in organizations that have old mindsets that there's that's permeates. And it's really holding back because the people that we look up to the people that we see across the industry that are actually, you know, charting a new path is they see the elimination of walls, you know, where we see really, I even think us saying we're the podcast for nonprofits. We saw a wall when we wrote that, and that was two years ago. That's a limiting factor that we thought that's where we need to serve. And I think two years into the journey we're like, it's not just about nonprofit like that's part of the problem is we think that we're the solution. You know, we're the here comes philanthropy to save the day and it's like, that's not going to work. So I think it's gonna work in its own way when it's paired with really awake corporations that see their influence and see their ability to take on a social purpose and where you can see how you can work with advocacy to mobilize an army of people that are never gonna be considered big philanthropists. But people that have the social capital and the influence online to garner attention, or people that can move in a certain direction, it's like, we got to get out of the walls. And so I think leaders that are viewing in that box, are really holding the sector back. And so, you know, I think we see the challenge, a lot of times, it's like, if that's you, you got to do some self reflection of why is that and it's cool, like I just explained our own limited thinking and areas, if you're not willing to move that you got to make room like, because what we're fighting for is the most important work some of the most important work happening on the earth. And we're holding it back by holding on to limiting beliefs and mindsets around how that work needs to be done, or how it can shape and kind of move into spaces that it traditionally has not done. And so I think that's the biggest thing, you know, that that's kind of the trickle down of everything to follow.
You know, something that I've so appreciated about getting to know you both in multiple conversations now that I finally figured out in this conversation, is that when you talk about good, one of the other things you keep saying is power. And, and I think that's important to recognize, because cynics like me, constantly fall into the trap of thinking that whatever the opposite of good is, which is like confusing in and of itself. But let's leave it there. Right? Yeah, whatever the non good is, is more powerful. And that good is, you know, naive and too Pollyanna and and I think one of the things you keep doing for me is flipping the script on that and saying, actually good is very powerful. And just a blanket things are bad, is is actually just as shallow of an analysis, as you know, thinking that that good is not sophisticated. And I feel like that's important. Is that intentional? Am I finally just picking up on what you've been saying all along? And you know, where? Yeah, how does that work for you? What does that look like?
I'd be that does it? I don't judge you at all for that, Tim. I mean, I think we were all there at some point, I just think that we have watched this social experiment play out over and over. And people I mean, we're all different. None of us can agree on anything, how it and we talk about we need more cognitive diversity, all over nonprofit all over this world, we need to be still. And we need to sit here and we need to listen to someone else's story, we need to look at their face. As they're talking about their lived experience, we need to hold court and allow them to feel the feelings of whatever that was that are coming in. And we need to allow that to shape our thoughts and our beliefs. And I just think we've worked in a system, specifically a nonprofit, where power dynamics are the name of the game, and you are constantly at the bottom of that, that pyramid and our thinking, we were looking at it going, we hate the pyramid, we want to flip the pyramid upside down and what would happen if you start to empower the base. And the only way the base is going to be empowered and feel that they can move as a movement is when you tap into the thing that's the most personal to them. And when you talk to somebody about the things that they care about most, the other little things that we disagree on start to kind of slide away because we really care about hungry kids, or we really care about climate justice and providing our grandkids you know, I clean earth where they can live and breathe and walk. We care about animals and being kind to animals. And when you find people who can really dive into that why the good just comes with it because that intention is so pure and so vulnerable and then you're you're tethered like for life in this in this heart thing that you have connected to each other and so we actually think perhaps it's kind of been Am I allowed to say this word bastardized, a bit like to be good.
We're an explicit podcast, on Apple.
Excellent. I feel so like I'm seen, but I just think that being good used to be this thing where it was like, that's never gonna get anything done. And it's like, actually, have you ever thought that it could get everything done?
Well, I mean, I know Tim's itching to jump in on this. But the thing that just occurred to me while you were both talking was one, we have gone in the tech industry and specific through many iterations of what, quote unquote, good looks like, right. And for a while the thinking was, I give away x quantity of y product. And that's good, right. And for a while, the thinking was, I give away something else. And that's good. And what I really want to clarify and point out here is that it's actually not about you as a business as a technology business, giving away things, either your product or in some cases, I've been asked by the myriad of business owners that I've talked to you, like Tracy were profoundly uncomfortable, not, you know, we don't want to give away our IP. It's got nothing to do with giving away. It's got everything to do with how you show up and are willing to receive. I think that's the point that really comes clear to me.
I love that Tracy.
Yeah. And I keep thinking, like, your question about power that keeps coming up in my head. I mean, it is a theme that that we keep showing that nonprofits need to come to the table from a place of power, where you're typically like kind of the receiving end, you have this impact, especially with the corporate sector is really trying to embrace like, you've got that power of just this impact of this decades of work, or this kind of infrastructure that supports this. And you're not coming to the table with nothing, you know, and I think, let me throw this personally, where I'm seeing this, because launching a business is a very personal growth exercise on every level and a friend exercise. I mean, Becky, and I've had some really hard conversations over the last couple years, you know, and I personally have a very limited look money mindset, because of my own scarcity in life or so in my upbringing, that I just, I'm more, I hold on to that. And it terrifies me, and I'll kind of drag my feet on making some of those decisions. And, you know, as we're, we've grown, and we realized that advertisers is going to be big part of our business, you know, moving forward, I mean, we're having more and more media platforms, it's part of it. And I was sharing that, you know, with a mentor on Friday. And she's like, I keep hearing from y'all that it's almost you sound like you feel bad about making money. And I think that it's like, it's truly like somewhere in my core that it's like, if we're doing something that's good and noble, like that, it's almost bad to make money on the back of that. And she was like, you gotta stop that like right now. Because you can make so much more of an impact, if you can embrace that more money is going to be able to give more power to influence in a positive way. And if I get to the core of it, if I'm really alone in a quiet place, which is really hard on my house, because they get two sets of twins, and it's crazy all the time. But in my quietest place, I'm like, I do want more people that are good at their core to have more money to be able to make the influence like that's a positive, like we need to be fighting and championing for that on every front that the good people in the world can get, you know, and have that power to make a positive difference and impact. So it's kind of threaded together. Like, I feel like I'm having this coming of age story as the, as the nonprofit sector needs to be having that too. And some have embraced that. But I think others have a long way to go in that in that path.
But I'm glad that you say that, and, and some of what you're talking about echoes for me very loudly, especially launching a business and then multiple ways that that causes you to grow as an individual is amazing. And the there's this way that you're that you think about or that we all think about, about good. And as an economist, there's a lot of work I've done around like, how do we do impact? How do you measure impact? And, and when we were thinking about our podcast, one of the one of the foundational assumptions that we have, is that and this is, I think, even easier in tech than philanthropy. But it's easy to just see impact or outcomes as external, right, things that happen outside and that we need the right policies, we need the right incentives, we need to think about that high level. And same with technology. You know, this is base code, it doesn't have anything to do with with who we are as people. And I think that's the the thing that Now It Matters and Why IT Matters has pressed in the most is that this is actually very human centric. And that what we create as humans flows from the values that are in inside of us. So, you know, when you talk about getting to who you are at a quiet place in your house. And when we think about the decisions that everybody makes and mindset that we have, I feel like it's important to say as values as there's an increase in how how important values are in business and impact, I think it's really important to plant the flag on those values have to start with individuals, and, and that those values have to be contained within with within individuals. And so I, I feel like that's easier for me to do with technology. I struggle with that in terms of marketing and philanthropy. And so, I think one question I have is, how have you how have you maintained that, in a world that looks to me very, very outward focused and very, like, let's put the right kind of paint the right kind of logos and, and maybe hide at times, some of what isn't working? Well.
The absolute horror and fear that all of us in creative businesses go through
All of us have it, yeah.
Does that, does that make sense? That question, okay.
It makes perfect sense that I I'll do a little tee up because I feel like Jon will just explain this beautifully. But, you know, our company started by outlining our core values, like that literally is what started our company, our first core value is everyone matters, we have eight of them. Our last core value is community is everything. And we've got six stacked in between there. And they're very, very simple ideas, but they are non-tra...they're very untraditional, and but it's really about centering our work in the human component, because that is what it is. And I would even just say to you, Tim, like, because you all have beautiful values expressed in your company. And it's why we love you all so much because you live them. And we have created a ton of content around our values, we did an entire Friday episode series, unpacking each of our core values at the very beginning of launching our podcasts because we wanted our community to know what they meant to us and how they'll see them expressed. And we pull them in, I would say almost every episode, we can thread back to having a guest on and we can illuminate why they're playing, you know why they're valuing this, the same value that we have, we love showing that value alignment. And again, it goes back to empathy. And it goes back to making smart decisions. And we're thinking like a business all the time. And we're not going to apologize for it. But I think that I think one of the great things about our values that has made me feel so good is when we have people in our community, we have sponsors and vendors, reflect them back to us, we've had sponsors come in and say we want to create a mid roll ad around, you know, core value number four, which is we're here to, you know, create believers, not donors, you know, we don't want to create donors, we want to create believers, because believers are not only going to bring the financial bottom line to bear, but they're going to bring passion network, volunteerism, they're gonna bring everything with him when you make when you build a believer. And so when we have people in our community say that I know I'm in the right place, because you say these things about who you are, and you live them. The trust that's built there, and that is something that I would take away, it has been a huge takeaway in building our business is that we're able to build trust so quickly, and that vulnerability and that self expression of who we are and reiterating it. I think it just had tremendous resonance, specifically in the great resignation, when people are leaving their jobs voluntarily and saying, looking around saying, Why am I doing the work that I'm doing? You know, why am I spending my life working to death? You know, I need to find something that really, you know, drives me and motivates me. And those are the people that we're ready to take in and mobilize in the for, or in the nonprofit or the social impact space. Because we want their passion, we want their hustle, we want their heart, we want all their creativity. And you have to think that a lot of them came in the door through our values is just like mind blowing. We just didn't honestly didn't even think about it. So Jon, go ahead, because I feel like this was a lot your brainchild.
I mean, I truly think it's a journey for both of us at the same time. But y'all know this from starting a company, it's very much reflective of the people that start it you know, and I think some of these things were just kind of true of the way we showed up and so I never thought of it as like disruptive the way that we did marketing I thought we value people we value people feeling seen and not otherized and all these things like so of course that's how we've created marketing. I'm a designer by trade. Becky's a writer. So I can think back for 15 years of interviewing people in different settings when we were working in a nonprofit, that we always sit down and say, Tell us about your family, like I want to get to know you. We're not using somebody to just accomplish our goal and I guess at the core, because we like we love the people aspect of it. And so I think it is funny now, not in a funny funny haha way. But like, it's blows my mind that that was not the common way to approach marketing, you know, and I guess because we're such purists maybe call us naive or whatever. But it's like, truly, we've been doing this kind. I mean, call anybody we've worked with for the last 15 years. That's just how we did it. Because that we knew that was the most important core thing. And so I can't think of another way to storytell Besides authentically, in that sense, and it's truly what worked. Especially Well, when we were in health care, philanthropy, I think of this campaign that really set our minds and hearts kind of on how We Are For Good would look, it was this employee giving campaign, which sounds so dorky, when we talk about it, like bringing it up.
It was transformational.
Those things are fraught with all kinds of politics.
So I mean, just just to give you an example, you know, we were tasked, let's do this, let's create an employee giving campaign. So we started calling around shops, and it's like, okay, we do Casino Royale for a month, and we do the cruise ship.
Bahama Mama and we're gonna hand out some candy bars on our cart with a pledge form.
Exactly, so maybe, call it like ego, but we're like, Are people crazy? Like who wants to do that, you know? So we just were like, how about what if we interviewed people and took unfiltered photos of them sitting on a stool telling their stories of what's happened in their life that makes them passionate. And we did that, you know, 11 years ago, probably now. And that campaign became like this, like kind of pace setter for the healthcare industry, which is how we got to different events, and how we started teaching this method. And I'm like, at the end of the day, all we did was ask somebody to literally sit on a white stool and tell us their story. Like, why was that disruptive? You know, why is it disruptive to be kind and to see people? And I know that comes from a place of privilege, you know, to say that, but it's kind of just been in our DNA. So of course, that's how we've shown up and I hope that doesn't sound arrogant. It's just It's sad that that's the place that your experience in marketing has been opposite of that, because to us, it's like just an opportunity to storytell the heartbeat of why we want to do any of this crap anyway, you know, and that's just always been central.
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I would say it echoes kind of a transformation I had in talking and getting to know Mallory Erickson that really started to reshape the way I thought about fundraising. And I think it's I I don't think my opinions necessarily well informed. It's just like, you know, it's it's impressionist art and not not charitable either. So and so I think it's I think is is when it's done best It actually is centered around individuals, you know and who they are. And so it makes it makes sense after you say it. It's like obvious of course, like that's the way it should be done. By I feel like it's just kind of a black box for me. So thanks for unwrapping that.
And I thought the other thing with employee giving sorry, again,
No, go ahead, it's actually probably very salient.
So we thought, especially there can't be an inauthentic bone about it, because you're running a campaign literally within these walls. So we were like, we want to have people representative that are housekeeping staff, we want to tell a story of an IT manager going to tell the story of a corporate person to maybe humanize them more. And when it rolled out, we knew it had to actual funds, actual projects, it wasn't going to a slush fund, it literally is going to be in the walls. So again, like it was almost the most basic campaign. But as it played out it It stuck because people loved it. They're like, Oh, I get to see what my money purchases. And you're like, again, why is that disruptive in our industry that you would expect that. But it was this perfect incubator for us to see, this not only is a way to show up as a good human to allow other people to feel seen and celebrated in a beautiful light. But it's also really transformational for building philanthropy around what really matters to you. And not just because, cultures
vibrant cultures. I mean, we are employee retention, went way up with this, you know, and not retention of giving, like staying and it ended up being recession proof and pandemic proof, like the fact that this campaign could still be raising, you know, nearly a million dollars a year from its employees is shocking. And it's because they believe, and they truly love being a part of it and loving having their story be an integral part of what's actually happening when they come to work on the front lines. So you have we everybody should be doing that. And that's seriously and truly why we set up this company is to say, how do we democratize that? How do we share it with everybody? How do we make this open source so that we're not, we're not trying to get millions of dollars from this, we will know we're winning, when people start to adopt this within their frameworks, they have healthy cultures, they're making, you know, they have DEI baked into their organization staff have opinions and voices in building pieces. You know, there's money in the budget for professional development and innovation. These are the things that we want to fuel as a part of what we call the Impact Uprising.
We had a discussion right before we hit it, and I knew this was gonna be salient. I think you just hit the nail on the head, Becky, and that is we had a discussion right before we hit record around why does marketing feel inauthentic. And the aha moment I had while you were both talking is that I personally have been part of many, many, many endeavors, external ones, internal ones, corporate ones, small business ones, and the connection point to the communities served. As the goal for what we are trying to achieve, is the things that we already know are true, how do we maximize return on investment? How do we accelerate ACV? How do we promote interest in our own selves? And the flipping of the script that you have offered here is you actually have a more interested community around you, when you focus on the things that elevate others with what you have, as a business and as a leader. And, you know, therefore, you start your campaign from an entirely different perspective. Because what you're starting your campaigns with are, what are the values we want to represent? And how can we achieve them? Not what are the outcomes we want to drive? And how much money can we attach to them? Because what you're saying is, actually by achieving the values, the outcomes will materialize. That's what I'm hearing you say.
Boom, got it. I mean, literally said to our CEO of our, we had a very large healthcare system, there were about 10,000 employees. And we we asked him, do we have your permission to build something radically different? And he said, yes. And then his eyebrow corked up and he's like, like, what am I and we said, there will be no dollar goal at all for this campaign. It's gone. And administration is not picking any of these projects. They're going to be picked by the people, for the people. And, and it's just going to be threaded with story. And, P.S. we want yours because it's going to be from the bottom up and the top down and everywhere in between. And so yeah, you nailed it.
It's weird too, Tracy like, yeah, that the idea of our mission is always like, external, like, we're gonna go do this mission and serve these people, you know. And I think you've got to do some deep reflection of like your missions, how you show up inside. And especially if you're talking about a 10,000 person organization, like, it's kind of critical, like the money is not the biggest issue here. You're trying to steward and build relationships with 10,000 employees. So the impact of them being activated, engaged, deeper, you know, connection to the mission, and all of it, like is worth way more than you're ever going to raise. And so you got to look, it's like, you got to zoom out that that is part of your actual mission too
Were you surprised he said yes?
Yeah?
I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I had some moxie or fearlessness.
Becky always has moxie.
But I just went, Yeah, I always have fearlessness. I probably because I don't think long enough about what could actually blow up in my face. But, you know, I, I think we just went for it. And we have this kind of fearless component about, we know what works. And we understand authenticity. And I mean, I'll just give an example like a personal one, we did a mental health theme week on our podcast last fall, because we feel like mental health is one of these elephants in the room that is never addressed in nonprofit. And so one of the stories that we had told that week was mine. And I was very upfront and clear, and clearly very vulnerable, talking about a nervous breakdown that I had, within my nonprofit job. And it was only three years ago that I had it, I took a leave of absence, I talked about what led up to it. I talked about the moment that it was happening and the physical and mental and emotional things that were happening to me. And then what happened, you know, after work, because it's a long journey. And I get so many emails and DMS still to this day from people who are listening to the back catalogue that say that was me. And I think when you just find your bravery a little bit, and you find your voice, we talked about finding your voice. It's it is a freeing thing. And then it opens you up to community and to friends that you never would have met around the world who see themselves in your story. And so, yeah, I just I cannot emphasize that enough how much it's not only been healing for me, but healing for others to see that they're not alone.
Yeah, I admire that a lot. There there are. For even our listeners sake, there are elements to my story that I am selectively withholding until actually my mother dies. Really, there are some parts to my life that are quite brutal, that I still have not talked about that. Only my closest friend like Tim, and obviously my wife Amy know about that, though, they're not going to see the light of day because I don't want to drag my mother through anything more. You know, but I get it. And it's hard. Sorry, Tim, I talked right over your question you wanted to follow up with?
No, I mean, yeah. And I, I'm, I think it's really important to raise that. Raise awareness around it. And I've, you know, I've struggled with my own mental health and, and doing that, as a leader in a business. I know what it's like to share that first hand. And so yep, Thanks for Thanks for that vulnerability. Thanks for making that more normative for, for everybody. I want to pivot here a little bit and say, I think that you, I think you both end up in a space where you can look forward at the ecosystem here in a way that it comes from years of experience. It comes from working with a lot of different organizations. And so a question that Tracy and I have been thinking about a lot lately is how important is technology for the future of good?
Oh my gosh, wow, it's everything.
It's everything, Becky, okay, jinx.
Jinx, you owe me a coke. Okay. We did not plan that. Go ahead, Jon, Mr. Tech.
I mean, I'm not but I'm a student of that we have to embrace like we're we're beyond the point of we should already be embracing this but I do think the next transition is going to be when the you gotta get on the bus soon. And I mean, that's, that's what we're leaning into for the future because Becky threaded of just like this idea of open source. And I do think we grew up in nonprofit in a time that it was very set around certain select people pontificating at conferences with all of their ribbons stacked beneath them to show how important they were.
Goddess bless you for that I grew up in that era. Yep.
So this, the the khaki pants are gone, which is great. And all those kinds of things, the pleats, pleated khaki pants, but I just think that there's a time now when it's like, hey, those that want to come to the table, like let's share what's working, Let's support each other. Let's figure out how to merge sometimes let's figure out how to work across different missions and make it work. And tech is like going to help empower that. I mean, we're a tech startup and some levels of the word because we haven't met in face to face some of our dearest friends, you two included in that have, you know the power of that if we would have put our heels down and said, No, we're gonna do an old style podcast, you're gonna come to our studio, we would have interviewed like four people in the last year, you know, in my house. But it's kind of everything. And so as we look at the horizon, what at least the horizon that I see today, like, we're embracing that, and we're thinking about how do we make the content today accessible in, in the most places where people are working today? Like if they're in their CRM, how is inspiration and guidance out there alongside them inside their CRM? How can you have those kind of interconnection points? But at the same way, how can we make it more accessible to get more people excited to learn and grow? So we're thinking of different ways to develop shows that would appeal to different types of people and types of industries within the sector. And so tech plays a big part of all of that, and we're going to need friends like y'all to help us take our hand and tell us what we don't know. But we know that it has a lot of power, you know, and those that are leaning into it are those that are that I want to hitch my wagons to. So what do you have to add Beck?
I think I'll just kind of get into my confessional and talk about what I worry about. And the things that I worry about as it relates to tech and philanthropy is that it takes nonprofit, so long to buy, to get on board with tech, they're so afraid of tech. And I will say I was one of them. Because I really think, you know, when I was growing up in the sector in like the 2000s. And 2010s. You know, it's been a hard 20 years, a lot of the tech was clunky, was very hard. Yes. And it was hard to use without, you know, API's and, and attachments. And I think of just different ways that we had to like buy other tech to make other tech work. And we're like, oh, my gosh, we're me, I'm a marketer, disguised as a fundraiser, I can't figure out how to get this annual giving data in here and synthesize it in a really profound way. But the thing is, and the thing that I worry about, is that we see a lot of nonprofits that are still in web 1.0. And web 3.0 is coming. And we're very worried about their ability to make the leap past 2.0, which really cannot, we don't think it's possible. I mean, you have to build your social frameworks, you have to build global community. And so, you know, digital, investing in digital is one of our biggest trends for 2022. However, you're doing that, it has to be a part of your business. And I will give like nonprofits a reason why this is going to help you work smarter, not harder, it's going to give you an exhale, and a breath. Because if you can automate the systems that we're seeing that are so smart, these technologies, it is really going to accelerate again, your ability to connect with the right person, to build a long term engagement with them, they're probably not even going to be in your neighborhood, your physical neighborhood, they could be the other side of the world. And tech is gonna get you there. And so we've got to get out of the scarcity and the fear of that, and start trying some stuff. And so we try to put tech almost into everything that we do, because not, as you all know, podcast listeners are learners. And so they want to understand, and so we're finding that our community, and I'm sure yours is very similar, their window to buy is much narrower, because they're already leaned in and listening. They're open to innovation and to change. They don't know what the tech is, but they're curious about it. And the reason we love you all so much is because you're finding ways to make the tech human. And that I think is, if we can figure that out, I think that window to buy, to use, to accelerate is going to shrink exponentially because nonprofits will see themselves reflected in that tech.
Yeah, I see this world where it's not just the tech human which is Tim's particular area of expert He's like, let's be clear. Let's give credit where credit's due. Tim, wow, that is you brought me on board to help you with that. But this is that's your thing. And the thing that I really tried to focus on is the other side of that coin. And that is, you know, who are the businesses that making that tech possible? And how are they aligning to where the ecosystem is going? And what are the shape of things to come for them, as businesses, and the commonality, by the way, between both sides of that coin, is you have to start with a different type of alignment than is currently supported by the market. And sometimes that alignment is an alignment of money. Sometimes that alignment is an alignment of values. And sometimes that alignment is an alignment of humanity. But none of that alignment is next quarter's ACV numbers. And I think is that is where the world is going. And nonprofit consumers are consumers that are buying on those values, that feel profoundly challenging to folks even like me, because you're talking about going up in the early aughts. You know, I navigating hardware VPNs, between national offices was where I got my start.
Oh my gosh, building websites in Dreamweaver and learning
Oh, I haven't thought about Dreamweaver in so long.
Oh my gosh.
I just, you know, back even then you wanted to claw your eyes out, but you knew there was no alternative. And now there are alternatives everywhere. And I think that's what scares people is there are alternatives everywhere. So when you see alternatives to you everywhere, you're going to need jerk to the same behavior that's gotten you where you are. Because you at least know you can predict on.
That's so smart.
It's interesting, what what you're talking about comes full circle in a way, because I think when if you if you just listen to the words that we've used around the emotional words, we've used around technology, there's a lot of fear, there's concern there is, you know, and, and so I, I feel like one of the one of the things that happened for me is that I feel like I see the power of the good side of it. So I think, right now our orientation is the negative emotions around technology. And I midstream on a blog around how important emotions are in terms of data quality. So those those two things align. And you know, it's not about API's, it is so much more around the emotions, expectations and experience of what happens with users. And, and so I feel like there is just like you feel like marketing can be so positive and powerful and good. I feel that way about the emotions related to technology. And when you can, when you can take those emotions and point them in a positive direction around technology. You can open up new worlds for nonprofits. But it starts not with better tech. It starts with a better mindset around this. What can this, it is not what can it do? I know that's important. But it is actually how, like, how do I feel about this is a more important question around outcomes than what does this technology accomplish. And we've we've just been so focused on technology as outcome instead of the the ways that technology and the fear around it, and the expense of it a lot of the a lot of the fears around expense. And so one way to do that is to take the expense off, you can make change in your existing technology with your existing team. And that, you know, you're already paying for all of that. So if you can, if you can see gains with what you have. There's no additional expense on that. So anyway, I know that that's my.
One other way isfunding technology capacity, but that's been my high horse for 20 years. Yeah, I mean no, really like I've been I used to get angry at philanthropists and I love that you started taking it back to this. Like I used to get angry because you wrote a love letter and I got angry. And that maybe says something about me as a person. Because
I will write you a love letter Tracy, from Becky to Tracy.
You know if you're a philanthropist, there are very few and there are some and there are incredible leaders I can point to who are changing the shape of philanthropy around how nonprofits are funded. But, you know, the bigger picture hasn't shifted much. And that is still frustrating to me. Because what I want to see are nonprofit technologists who make a living wage. So I don't feel like I need to jump to a corporate job to make a six figure salary and do good in the world. And similarly, you know, we've gotten in this mindset as businesses serving nonprofits that we should do business as usual, serving nonprofits. And that's actually not serving the ecosystem at large either. So, you know, what is required is a whole scale reevaluation of how we serve, and a convening of new ways to support the stuff that we've been talking about for the past hour, because in its absence, we'll all do fine. But there's this better place we can be. Yeah. And I think that is the vision that I see coming out of the work that We Are For Good does and why it's been really great to just spend an hour with you today.
Thank you guys for saying that. I think it's I think it's an output of what you do it Now It Matters and Why IT Matters. And I love that we're having this conversation, because it already tells me that that times are changing and that people are ready. And I'll tell you why I think this even matters to for profit. It's because giving is now an identity. And I mean before before we were like giving was something nice to do. And then we were doing our corporate social responsibility thing. I think Gen Z is going to bring so much hope and innovation into this sector because giving and doing good is core to who they are. And so in here's just like a quick example, I have an 11 year old who loves the environment. And the other day I was visiting with her and I said if I could give you a Nike hoodie, and because she's real sports girl, and I said if you could have any color you want any design, or I could give you a Ocean Conservancy sweatshirt, which one would you wear, and without a breath, you know, missing a breath. She says I want the Ocean Conservancy one, because that tells people who I am. Nike doesn't tell people who I am. And so I'm seeing this shift for and that's Gen alpha. So you can see what Gen Z is doing as it kind of relates and this technology boom, that we're in because these kids, my kids included, have technology at their fingertips, and they can find what matters to them. So if corporations I think need to pay attention, because not only is philanthropy icing on the cake, or you know, our corporate social responsibility, it is baked in to who we are now. And we're seeing Gen Z start to create monthly budgets for their philanthropy. They're already going into college classes to try to figure out how to save the environment. They are wired differently. And I honestly believe it, it brings a lot of hope and promise into our sector. We're watching it really closely.
I'm glad that that's more popular than like the starter. I keep telling him like the starter jackets that were cool growing up.
Oh my gosh, Becky, I was thinking Benetton.
Benetton? Yeah, all the different colors. Yeah, totally.
The united colors of Benetton.
So last last question here. And thank you so much for all all of what you've been saying what you talk about what you're up to. And speaking of what you're up to, and capacity, I am really excited about what you are doing with We Are For Good PRO. And I wonder if you could say a little bit about what it is where it's going what people can expect on it.
Thank you. I mean, it is kind of our first step in reflecting back after spending a year making friends and growing the community around, We Are For Good. We wanted to create a platform that we didn't see in the world, you know, a place that you could make accessible trainings and kind of the best thought leaders in real time. And so we've curated our friends that we can now call friends in the sector that are disruptive, that are not teaching old school mentalities. But what works right now and we're dropping in live coaching so members of We Are For Good PRO can join us live and ask thought leaders their questions. I mean, it's like getting to tap the brains of some of the most brilliant people but also finding community among each other. So We Are For Good PRO, we're dropping new content monthly and it's it's been so fun, like we geek out getting to meet people in real life filming these things. It's so great.
I mean, we just are building the things that we wanted to see we see so much low hanging fruit, so much ability in our sector and you know if we're being entire really selfish and honest right now it's we wanted to build a learning platform where again, the future leaders of nonprofit in 10 years, we want them to think this is the only way to to go about making connections, about fundraising about leveraging tech about bringing everyone to the table, this the sort of old patriarchal, misogynistic ways, power dynamics of the fundraising sector. There's some great hallmarks there and some great bedrock. But wow, it is ripe for innovation. And we think that if we can teach tomorrow's leaders that now it's going to be paying and reaping benefits for decades to come. So that's there's our big, hairy, audacious dream for you with pride.
I know y'all believe in this too. But it's like professional development is probably the highest ROI thing in your budget. I mean, you know, and,
and first thing cut,
and the first thing cut, yeah, and so such an opportunity. And the people that you're gathered, there are fellow growth minded people, and it's just it's encouraging place to spend your time. So, by the
By the way, when you don't invest in professional development for your staff, they, you know, leave your nonprofit, become consultants, maybe do some stuff in an ecosystem for a while, go work for a big corporate entity, and then wind up having a podcast. So
I think the four of us are living proof of all of that.
So maybe you shouldn't, just to get more of this.
Come on over, we'll take you.
Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work that you're doing. And we can't wait to see if we can't wait to see what's next.
Oh my gosh, love you guys so much.
Super excited.
Thank you for having us. Keep doing what you're doing. We're just gonna like build our own little sandbox and build some really cool shit over there. So I'm excited.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Folks, Tim and I were so excited to have this conversation with Jon and Becky today. And it connects to so much of what we try to bring to the forefront in our conversations, particularly for you as business leaders and insiders who really are doing the best work in the world. So if you want to see more episodes about putting humans at the center of our decision making, check out our past episodes with Mallory Erickson, Christine Priester, and Marnie Webb.
