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SydneyWasdin - 1:16:22, 7.40 PM | Otter.ai

SydneyWasdin - 1:16:22, 7.40 PM

Amber Watkins1h 1min

Speaker 1

00:51

Hello, on today's episode of the thoughtful counselor, I'm speaking with Sidney wazdan, counselor and owner of true yoga and therapy as she shares her story of becoming a therapist and yoga instructor. Sidney works from an integrative health psychology and trauma informed lens to provide treatment to engage both mind and body in the process of healing and health. At her practice, she specializes in using mindfulness based cognitive behavioral and yoga therapy interventions. Welcome, Sidney.

Unknown Speaker

01:19

Hi, how's it going?

Speaker 1

01:21

It's going great. I'm excited to talk about our topic today and kind of introduce some people or maybe give them some ways to expand in their therapeutic process by being able to use the body as well as the mind and spirit and how maybe some of your work experiences and integrating that with therapy can kind of help maybe re energize listeners and figure out ways that they might be able to bring some more nourishment and energy to their practice. So if you could maybe introduce yourself and some of the experiences that actually brought you to the topic we're talking about today.

Speaker 2

01:55

Okay, so I am currently an associate licensed counselor in the state of Alabama. I'm also a national board certified counselor, and a 200, or YT yoga instructor. At the moment, I'm also enrolled in a 900, our certified yoga therapist program, that is Ay ay ay YT accredited. I've actually taught yoga since about 2015, which is during my undergraduate academic career, and that's kind of how I got my very beginning in it. And also realizing just its benefit for myself in my own mental health in college, which we know can be stressful. And then, as I was studying both psychology and yoga and fitness, technically together, I realized, you know, the benefits of both lined up. And then the more I learned about the like, physiological kind of mechanics of how it all worked together, the more I was also able to conceptualize things better, and realize the importance of combining the two in some manner. And the value that that provides for health and wellness from a holistic perspective.

Speaker 1

03:11

So you started then, as a Yoga Instructor in college, I imagine that was something enjoyable to make some extra cash, where did your progression go to actually start thinking about how this would be infused into your mental health practice, especially from the start of your career.

Speaker 2

03:27

So I started it as just kind of a once a week class for myself, I had no plans on being a yoga instructor actually. And then, through all of our and they, they had a really great opportunity that I just couldn't, I couldn't say no to. And I did become a yoga instructor. And then I realized that there's a lot of therapeutic value in being a yoga instructor to both for myself, and then also my own ability to share that within an open space in such a non invasive way. And then if you remember back to my graduate program, I asked a lot of questions at that time about doing that, and how am I do that. And then too, I started thinking even more critically about it, and then got the opportunity to implement it within my internship. thankful for all the folks over there that helped me do that, too. And then I just saw it take off from there.

Speaker 1

04:27

Yeah. And as part of your internship, it was something that you sort of infused, you were in an inpatient facility, if I remember correctly, and being able to integrate that as part of their kind of like daily treatment and rehabilitation.

Speaker 2

04:39

Correct. So I got to do a little yoga group with the long term care, adolescents that were there. So these were adolescents that were dealing with severe mental illness. They could be in the hospital for months at a time and we got to Do yoga together. And I got to see how it actually helps them within their day to day struggles, and then also their interpersonal dynamics with one another. And it was just, it was overall a really great experience. When you went with, it got my feet wet with actually facilitating it in a healthcare oriented setting or within treatment for psychiatric illness.

Speaker 1

05:28

I admire that because I feel like when we're going through our graduate programs, it's already so overwhelming, just like coursework, the curriculum. So for you to also feel a sense of like creativity to kind of bridge to things that you really liked, was there like mentorship there was it just you felt so fed from it that it felt like you then wanted to infuse that, because I'm just thinking when I'm graduating from my program, I'm so worried about getting a job and licensure that imagining also adding this like Somatic Experiencing part would have just been so overwhelming.

Speaker 2

05:57

Yeah, I was just so intrigued and inspired by it. That it was like, how could I not do that. And I found a lot of support through the faculty at Auburn. And I found a lot of support in it through the staff there at East Alabama. And I'm grateful that they were supportive of me during that.

Speaker 1

06:21

So as then you graduate, we get into now creating your own practice, which, as a new practitioner can be super overwhelming, but then you also infuse them this yoga studio with it, can you tell us a little bit about that maybe just kind of how you thought this would look in your community or how it might meet a need in the community and how you even created this idea of creating sort of a joint practice.

Speaker 2

06:44

So Alabama, struggles with mental illness, and also having resources to treat it. And yoga for me was an opportunity to provide some kind of therapeutic value, something that's beneficial for both the physical health crises that we have as well as a mental health crisis that we have in the state and nationally, in such a non invasive way to where it's open, and anyone can come and get something no matter what it is, from that experience that can be helpful for them. Also, a lot of times think of the mental health stigma and still see it too in my area, where it is just very stigmatized. And it's just this very scary concept. And if you go to therapy, you have a problem, and I don't have a problem, you have a problem and all of those things. And so I just saw it as an opportunity to give something that in a more open space that might work to actually over time d stigmatize therapists or also mental health in general, or the process of go into therapy or feelings, or fitness, all in one place.

Speaker 1

08:12

I think that's one of the beauties of this intersection that we're going to talk more about, because I feel like there's therapy where we can get really into our own heads. And we can kind of exist and get lost in these thought processes. But with a practice, like yoga that really forces you to be fully present. Instead of having therapy, we could spend so much time worrying about the future so much time just ruminating on the past, it really forces you to stay present one just for general safety while you're doing poses. But also with the breath work and the power of that. And so something that I was excited in talking about this is kind of what you just covered with like the accessibility of yoga and how you don't necessarily need to go to a studio and you don't necessarily need a ton of supplies for it. But just the general practice of it, how useful it can be to feed into mental health. And as someone who I know that yoga has just saved my mental health in so many ways when I began it, being able to see how now as counselors, we can maybe integrate some of these principles are actually like poses in part of our treatment then too. So I'm excited to get more into that. Maybe we can start jumping in then into just general how to use bodywork in the therapy process. So I know that your practice is separated where there's mental health, and then there's actual yoga practices, but I know you're also getting training in order to infuse that more deeply. So maybe we can talk about some of your understanding or experiences in bodywork when it comes to the therapeutic process.

Speaker 2

09:34

So really the benefit of bodywork within the therapeutic practice. What comes to mind for me is also the push for integrative care, which within health psychology we see for that push for more integrative care treatment modality modality is to be used in trading a variety of different health conditions including psychiatric illness, but also expanding into cancer. More piloted care settings. And I do believe those outcomes show more of a benefit of working from that perspective and including that work for both the health outcomes, but then also the general mental health for that patient through their health issues, which oftentimes is unfortunately left completely forgotten or unmanned, just neglected entirely, but it's nonetheless affected by the experience of the symptoms, the diagnosis, and then also the treatment for whatever whatever health conditions they're presenting with. Within my training, and within my setting, currently, as my practice as a therapist, right now, a lot of times, I'm walking someone through breath, work, how to breathe properly, walking them through meditation, playing meditation during the session, or facilitating one myself that I think is specific for them. And actually having them practice that because something that's been surprising is a lot of counselors get wrapped up in almost the preaching of do this thing, and they provide the right recommendations. But there's a little bit of a disconnect, because I think we know so much about it, and about the benefits of it, that the patient or the client doesn't always know or see. And they don't really know how to do those things, or how it can even be helpful for them. It just kind of sounds like when you go to the doctor, and they tell you to drink more water, it kind of just comes across just like that. And it's not

Speaker 1

11:44

it doesn't hit as like meaningful or impactful, I do see that sometimes in my practice, if I tried to gently bring up something like yoga or meditation, that there may be like an eye roll, because that's what we already know. But you know, people can't do it for whatever reason or feel they can't do it. Or it's just something that seems like very basic, not individualized. So it sounds like you found a lot of power in doing it in session versus just like a prescription to do a healthy habit.

Speaker 2

12:09

Mm hmm. I do a little bit of both. But it also kind of depends on, you know, you can kind of assess someone willingness to do that, outside of it, and willingness to engage with it within the therapy setting itself. So just kind of getting a good feel for what is the right fit for that person, even if it's just introducing it as a recommendation, it could still be planting a seed. And who knows, even if I end up with a different therapist later down the line, eventually, they're gonna get sick and tired of us all talking about it right. Or we can do this,

Speaker 1

12:47

I've had that happen to where someone will finally give it you know, a try and then come in and kind of roll their eyes of like, I know, you already said this, but it was actually useful, kind of like how we find journaling to useful but I do think maybe in our clients pain and suffering, they feel like very common quote, like, interventions won't be useful to them. And to see like, these are practices that have been around for so long. And there's a reason for that, because it really is targeting a lot of the needs that our bodies have. And one reason I was excited to talk about this topic is because as therapists, I feel like it's so crucial for us to bring in some, so some kind of somatic experiencing. Because if we're just doing top to bottom and just working on the cognition, and I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist, like I totally believe in that. But if that's all we do, how much we're sort of like robbing of the healing experience of what the body has stored over years of suffering.

Speaker 2

13:36

Exactly. And that right there is the principle behind you know, the therapy and why it's effective. Trauma is stored in the body as well as the mind. And when we think about it to your mind and your body, they experience everything together your bodies, with you, quite literally attached to you and your consciousness in those moments that you're walking through this life. And so all things good, bad and ugly, it's going through with you and therefore is also affected by those things, especially because we're wired with all these very biological, raw just reactions. Our body is wired a certain way where it's, it's making us respond to the situation in one way or another. And sometimes those responses can get the better of us. And even in the moments where they're a little bit disproportionate to the situation that's going on eventually, which obviously comes with increased exposure or continuous exposure to trauma as well. And then, like I said, with them being so interlocked like that what affects one affects the other. So what affects you mentally cognitively and emotionally, it does then affect your brain, which then controls your entire body. And so then whatever is affecting your body to such as, like a physical trauma or an injury, then has the reverse effect. And it goes all the way back to your mental health. Simple as that. Yeah.

Speaker 1

15:21

And always a lot of our clients, I see it almost makes them feel helpless, that they quote, like, no better, but their body responds in either the fight flight freeze on any of those options. And there's a sense of frustration that they're broken. And so by using certain interventions like yoga, how that can kind of bring back this cohesion between the body and the brain to actually communicate with each other. But then also for the brain to feel safe and comfortable in the body, even when the body has experienced pain, suffering, or turmoil or trauma. Mm hmm.

Speaker 2

15:49

And even behind going through that with someone I do, like, I've always been a very education based person. And so I do like to incorporate an educational component to it to, in helping people understand their body name, those things that are happening in those moments within their bodies. And so that they know actually, where that's coming from him what's happening within them when it's happening. So that they can label those things in those moments, and then go from there with the skills that we've practiced.

Speaker 1

16:23

Yeah, not feeling so consumed by some of these reactions. And as well, it's like, they get to learn through this, how their body can feel like home again, or something that they feel very grateful for, instead of this thing that has been a product of trauma or negative experiences.

Speaker 2

16:37

And then also that their body is working for them in order to protect them. And it's trying to do what it thinks it needs to do to take care of us. It's not trying to harm you, taking that negative stigma away from also the stress response. I think that's a very important piece of it, too.

Speaker 1

16:58

So I guess, how did you start kind of bringing in yoga principles that you use in therapy? Or and I'm sure like, there's mental aspects that go into your yoga classes as well. That's what I've experienced in mine. Any trends or training that helped you to find these sort of like parallels? And now as you're trying to intersect them?

Speaker 2

17:18

Oh, that's a good question. Honestly, I feel like a lot of things have been very much trial and error. I think there are a lot of great trainings out there on incorporating mindfulness, and even polyvagal theory into private practice, or practice in general. But I think that a lot has just been more of a person centered approach of recognizing what that person is experiencing, and kind of where they are in their own journey. And then also, kind of trying things that I think might logically fit, you know, the need, that's there. And that's what a lot of times I'm doing is assessing critically, what is needed, and including what's needed on a larger scale in my community, and trying to provide that in some kind of way. So doing that with the client in front of you, is definitely important. And it might take a few tries. And that's also totally okay to have that open conversation with the client and explaining that not everything works just like that instantaneously. And different things work for different people. So we're going to try together to figure out what works for them. And that I think, is a very comforting aspect. For them, as well as kind of in their journey in finding their coping skills, like we talked about all the time. And then also kind of takes away some of that dread that might come along with when we try something and we try and try and try and it just doesn't quite work for us. It's not resonating with us, taking some of that away from them, by comforting them and letting them know that different things work. And this isn't the end all be all and you didn't make the cut. It's let's try something different. And let's work together during that process.

Speaker 1

19:11

Yeah, that it's not a failure, if anything, it's having to remind ourselves and our clients that one tool is not going to work all the time for every person, which is why we need to have you know a plethora of tools and figure out which tool is most useful given a stressor or any sort of challenge.

Unknown Speaker

19:25

Mm hmm, exactly.

Speaker 1

19:28

I know that in my yoga teacher training. It's something that I heard in yoga classes but got to dig more into was so much of the parallels and just like principles about being aware, being mindful noticing things non judgmentally. And that was pretty moving for me to know that these things that for hundreds and hundreds of years have existed. Now we've brought into therapy and how there's this integration of how healing can happen on a cellular level as a result of that and then we have the privilege of therapists to also use the brain and can junction with that, have you found any sort of principles from yoga or the background being really helpful in educating our clients or using that for your client work?

Speaker 2

20:11

I agree with that totally. And I do. I don't necessarily name it as yoga or yoga principle, but we do talk about a concept that kind of comes up. And then I also like to model those behaviors from the clinician side of it to them. Even with combining that with other like counseling modalities, too, such as motivational interviewing with the use of reflections. So I'm noticing you're judging yourself a lot today, what's going on, or going into that thought a little bit more deeply. And then talking about the process of judgment may be and what that's about and helping them, do a little bit of introspection and realize what that's doing for them, how that's actually serving them in both productive and non productive ways, and healthy and unhealthy ways. And D stigmatizing the fact that that's happened, that that's happening, but also, helping them just better control it as well as better understand it, and recognizing what it's actually doing to them, therefore, promoting mindfulness. So stopping the judgment in the assessment of threat, rather than letting it spiral all the way over into criticism, which then holds them back with themselves, and then also in their interpersonal lives.

Speaker 1

21:42

Yeah, it's a reading about non judgmental, I know, in our training programs, that's, you know, one of the first core things is coming in non non judgmentally. But as therapists I've seen, that we can judge how quickly we're moving through a therapy session, what our goals are, like how invested a client might seem, how engaged they are. And so bringing in the yoga principles, then of you know, whatever serves you today, so non judgmentally, wherever you are today, and here are a few options. But it's whatever feels the most true to you today. And I felt that really helpful in my pacing and therapy sessions, that if this is what they can offer me today, or if this is what I can offer today, as a therapist, that that's also okay to because I do feel like newer practitioners can really put a lot of pressure on themselves to accomplish all these things so quickly in therapy. And that's just not how humans work.

Speaker 2

22:33

Exactly. And I won't lie, I definitely feel that myself. And I think, you know, due to the just a lack of understanding about mental health or the therapeutic process in general, we a lot of times do feel that pressure from clients to fix it, or clients, parents to fix it, fix it, fix it,

Speaker 1

22:52

manage care doesn't help with that, either, that they're like, how long is this taking? Aren't you fixed yet?

Speaker 2

22:56

Exactly, exactly. And then the cost of therapy, I totally know, don't help with that at all, either. But at the same time, it is so helpful to be able to come back to that for your own self preservation as a clinician, your own mental health to prevent your own burnout and compassion fatigue, in knowing that this is this is today, and that's okay.

Speaker 1

23:25

If it serves you today, then that's enough bend to and that there isn't a sense of comparison. With yoga, one of the things that I found the most useful was being able to be so present in a moment I couldn't overthink and how some of those principles of just being able to sit and be a notice, which even goes back to like more historical, like indigenous practices that we're not on Earth to constantly do and achieve. But just to be the way that nature is. Have you ever had any maybe like challenges with clients and absorbing that because I know for me, I have to be very cautious how I preface it. So whether I kind of make a joke about art, I'm going to bring some Lulu to you here cuz I think it could be useful, or whether you know, they're talking about other goals, they have an AI infused that yoga is one of them. Any strategies that you've found successful to be able to bridge some of those principles? I know you said you don't always label it as yoga principles, and that might be helpful.

Speaker 2

24:13

Mm hmm. So I do see the challenge with that too, especially when clients are struggling with more severe issues, such as psychotic features, or severe emotional distress, or suicidality. And just being able to sit with them in that moment, too, I think is helpful. We talked about that in therapist training, counselor training and education. But I think that it definitely plays a part there. So sitting in a moment, but then also before that, if you remember you were focusing on your body and what was happening in your body and sitting in that moment and really naming the things that were happening. And I think that that's important to practice with that client that struggling with that, too, as a foundational measure,

Speaker 1

25:08

it was surprising to me with what you said, how many of our clients and even us as practitioners aren't present in our body fully at any given moment. And so it did help me to kind of look more closely at my clients of how their bodies respond when we talk about certain things. Because I used to always be very like verbal, you know, we work with what is said and what they're aware of. But now being able with some of this understanding and knowledge to say, you know, you're telling me about the worst trauma that's happened in your life, the way you're talking about the weather, your body has not shifted, has not moved, there's been no tension observable, can you tell me about that, like what's going on in your body, or there has been no emotion and anything that you've stated in session, I wonder where those emotions are kind of like whirling in your body, and starting to teach them that there is this bridge versus I think, society wise, for so long, we were just told to like shove it down, you know, sweep it under the rug, push it down. And now I think a lot of us are really trying to find the value in getting clients to expose it in session and work with that.

Speaker 2

26:05

Mm hmm. And embrace it, and accept it and love it for what it is and what it brings, and all of those things. And I know that that's really hard and really scary for a lot of our clients, too. So being patient with them. And just helping them actually talk through and process it when they are more in crisis. And going through something in naming those things is super, super helpful. And also working through the fear that they might have about that, like if we are to let these things out. If we are to talk about these things, if we are to experience these things, or to allow ourselves to experience these things. What's the worst thing that can happen? What can happen here? What are we what are we resisting?

Speaker 1

26:51

And why are we resisting it, I understand and have to help this bridge for clients that maybe in childhood that wasn't tolerable to your caregivers, to your home environment. And that makes sense. And I find a lot of power and telling clients like what you're going through makes sense. But now and I work with adults, so this is a little bit easier to say, Now, as an adult, you don't have to oppress yourself, you don't have to limit these emotions. Because I see with a lot of clients, it is that fear of what does that mean, when I lose control? It's like, well, then you might actually be fully connected with your body doesn't mean you're necessarily going to go crazy. Which of course, we're going to make sure that clients are in a window of tolerance before we just start like opening this wide. But has there been any surprising components of that when you've really been able to be successful with getting clients to integrate with their bodies and their minds?

Speaker 2

27:38

I think so I think it really takes the fear of that away from them. So that I mean, I've seen clients that since our work together, they've actually unfortunately experienced really traumatic and heavy events within their lives that they were able to sit with themselves through. We talk about delaying reactions, you know. And the process of that really consists of being able to sit in that moment with yourself and letting yourself process and experience those things and kind of digest and so to speak. And I think it really takes with practice and with the safety of doing it with someone takes the fear away from that for when those crisis moments happen within their lives, they're better able to know that that's normal, do that for themselves, so that they can move through it and move on from it with more resiliency than they really ever saw themselves having before. It just kind of looks different. Not that they weren't resilient before. But it just looks differently. And it feels differently for them to

Speaker 1

28:48

Yeah, it's like the story is different in their head, which then helps us to further the point that the brain lie sometimes like thoughts lie, but the body rarely lies the body can be very intuitive to dangerous to harm that if we just kind of know how to translate what the body is saying.

Speaker 2

29:02

Mm hmm. Exactly. What's also funny there though, is teaching people how to discern between what is anxiety and what is intuition? Because a lot of times tries to trick our ourselves, our bodies, everything into thinking that something is intuition when it's actually just anxiety.

Speaker 1

29:25

Yep, just catastrophizing or mind hurry or any of those cognitive distortions, exactly. And

Speaker 2

29:29

then teaching them how to feel and notice the difference between those two two is super helpful. I feel

Speaker 1

29:36

Yeah. Do you have any strategies that have helped because I usually will ask clients if, you know when they have this idea, or this really strong belief, well, where do you feel it in your body? And if it's all mental, that's something to note versus that, you know, butterflies in your stomach or the strongest in your chest or that you know, tightness in a certain part. Are there any ways that you've been able to kind of link them or get clients to even let you go there with them?

Speaker 2

30:01

I love that I do something very similar to that as well. So I love that you're asking them that, um, you know, it's funny, it just kind of things happen just naturally within people's journeys and within their, their process, and life experiences. So, you know, I find that when we start talking about those things, I noticed that a lot of people have experiences where they do get that strong intuitive gut feeling, that is a true gut feeling. And then we they bring that in, they talk about that during session, I'm like, Okay, well, now, you know, that was your gut feeling. And so they're able to apply it to the situation. But it's just funny how things happen sometimes like that. You right,

Speaker 1

30:51

because or challenges therapist is, what is a true gut feeling, which the way that I explained to my clients is, that is what's most in alignment with your value system, like it's never going to steer you from your value system, and it will let you know when you're living in congruent from that. But how does that feel different than like programming from our caregivers, or our childhood environments of what is the quote like right or wrong thing to do, versus society. So it does take some like examining, which I don't think we can do until we can be mindful and just sit and observe our bodies. And it was truly surprising for me, and I think something I wasn't even aware of how many of us self medicate in order to avoid being present with our bodies, whether with substances, but also with over busyness with distraction, our phones don't help with that do that we almost never have to be fully present. So I think that's something that is a challenge on our part to teach clients how to evaluate what is their intuition versus just previous programming?

Speaker 2

31:46

Mm hmm. Yeah, I think a big key word there too, in the difference in those experience is fear. There's I don't know about for you, but it seems like more mentally based fear, like anxiety or conditioning from early childhood experiences, and parental attachments and things like that. It comes with a different feeling than like a gut, more intuition kind of reaction to something. It's more, it's just more fear based, whereas the gut intuition is more like, like you said, aligned with the self and know this is what's right for me or isn't right. And there's less of a fear and more of an affirmed feeling with that. I think that's a key piece.

Speaker 1

32:41

Now, that's a good point that like one drain, so fear can be draining, or sometimes I'll call it like these Emotional Vampires. Where if we're in alignment, and it's our intuition, that's like life giving, or that's energizing. And so it's really paying attention to how your energy shifts when you're making decisions, or when you're feeling certain sensations.

Speaker 2

33:00

Mm hmm. And then another thing that you mentioned, to escape being present within ourselves, you know, the funny thing is, it's not I don't think that people are trying to escape being present with themselves, though. I mean, some of them actually name that they are because it's uncomfortable to sit with yourself when you're used to it. I think that all of us even further along in that journey have experienced that for sure.

Speaker 1

33:25

But absolutely, even when I meditate now, it's still got to be guided, if it's just me with myself, it is it's no brainer right now. So it's still a journey. For me,

Speaker 2

33:32

it comes and goes like that, I totally get that. But it's also just, it's not that they don't want to be with themselves, I feel at its very root, it's more than that. They don't want to feel bad. The discomfort, exactly, it's an effort to escape feeling bad, or all of those undesirable feelings. When those undesirable feelings are, they're not the villain. They're not the evil, they're okay. And that's where normalization and destigmatizing and getting familiar with those things, is very helpful therapeutically, as well.

Speaker 1

34:16

And also, I guess, it's educating them that life isn't just about only feeling positive sensations as well, like life ebbs and flows and the richness of life has negative feelings, uncomfortable feelings, and a lot of times and this is more what I learned in yoga class, that's what expands us are those uncomfortable feelings and never to the point where it causes the body pain or where we're having negative messaging, but just, you know, a little added, like expansion or a little added space within us. And so that was a way to to kind of help me to decipher then what is just sort of like being a masochist and just, you know, enduring things because that's not a high quality life, but also not this expectation that we only ever have positive sensations.

Speaker 2

34:55

Mm hmm. Totally agree. And I love that about yoga. I love When people do come to group and come to yoga classes to experience that, and it gives me kind of the leeway to talk about those things too in that space, but there's just something so awesome about letting them experience that somatically with their bodies, so that it kind of like clicks in a different way. For them. It's amazing it is.

Speaker 1

35:24

And I think it almost allows us to lose control. And this is a value that I've also seen using EMDR. In therapy, we, because of our coping skills want to hold so much control, but like you said, so much based in fear. And with things like yoga aimed over we have to abandon control, surrender to it. And then be these like open selves, like I have many clients tell me that, you know, shavasana, just like in the corpse pose can just be so vulnerable that and they feel so just wide open and broken open. But then that's where a lot of the healing comes. And that's where there's, you know, tears streaming down your face during that. And that's where you release a lot of it. So it's almost like how can we get over that hump? And that fear of the vulnerability and the lack of control to surrender to the things that can be useful to us?

Speaker 2

36:04

Mm hmm, exactly. So Avastin is a doozy. You love it, you love it. But until that point where you find that you love it, who there's so much resistance there

Speaker 1

36:16

is and we do have to take into account two individuals who've experienced actual like trauma. I know in one of my yoga teacher trainings, we really talked about trauma informed yoga approaches and certain accommodations that can be made in classes like that, that shavasana can seem like a very unsafe POWs due to their experiences. So how can you accommodate it, then were there still a period of rest, a period of receiving from your practice, without it feeling very activating or triggering based on experience trauma?

Speaker 2

36:42

Mm hmm. And you know, that's, that's a really, really tricky too, with the different, everyone holds different trauma. And that might be associated in a very physical way. And then we are doing physical poses, or postures. And then also, when you're instructing a class, you know, you don't always necessarily know all of that. So that is, it is something to definitely consider and to know how to kind of read the room about to

Speaker 1

37:10

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something that I see talked about more in the yoga language. But I think as therapists that's something that we can also help to kind of educate our clients and normalize. And that course, it was even small things like, maybe you don't incorporate Child's Pose, or that's just a an optional, because Child's Pose could be something that's very triggering to clients, or even things like, if there's mirrors in a yoga studio, and how that might be triggering for clients who have self image challenges or lights off using the straps, like there's so many minor accommodations that can be made that can make yoga, something that does feel safe to clients, no matter what their body has experienced.

Speaker 2

37:47

Mm hmm, exactly. And that's why I really try not to one of the reasons that I really try not to rely too much on the props for that. Because they do, they do sometimes trigger those things. Even stuff like down dog, or, or puppy is can definitely be a moral position and very triggering for people. So yeah, just being able to read those things.

Speaker 1

38:18

And maybe it's if someone wants to infuses in their practice, obviously, that part of like recruitment, and really being mindful of the needs of each group. And I think that's more of like a therapeutic process versus what a yoga instructor can do in a traditional class. And one training that I went to that actually target specifically like military, it was even something I would have never thought about that was so simple, instead of you know, walking in and everyone's back is to where the door is that for people who have experienced certain traumas that it's like you shifted that it's like, the doorway is where everybody faces and that just feels safer. And so I do think some of these things that seem very obvious, but can make such a crucial difference and being able to make something like yoga more approachable for our clients.

Speaker 2

38:57

Mm hmm. Totally agree. Or even some

Speaker 1

39:01

of maybe some of the spiritual practices how some people may receive that differently. So how that can be made in a way that doesn't feel so intimidating or something that feels so unknown, but respect the origins of yoga.

Speaker 2

39:11

Hmm, exactly. I think the self is really the key there. So drawing people's attention back to themselves. And what, where they feel their power and what they feel is their higher power is whatever that is helping them embrace themselves and their own belief systems, through the process of yoga, while also providing those yoga principles and therapeutic benefits of yoga. All in that in that same time, because Yoga is not in nature. It is not judgmental. It is not pushy.

Speaker 1

39:51

It's non violent, so it's not supposed to harm the person anyway.

Speaker 2

39:55

Exactly. People just they're really It is sad to see just what's not known. But the public at least hear about yoga about those things, they they think they think a certain way about yoga or have a certain attitude about yoga because of miscommunication. And a lot of times will shut down to it and not give it the chance that it really deserves, even when it can be potentially something that saves them from themselves.

Speaker 1

40:30

And maybe that can kind of like start putting us towards recommendation for listeners of how these principles can be incorporated either into session or things that you've learned in building an additional business that kind of complements your therapeutic practice. Because yeah, especially practicing here in the south, I find that I have to be cautious about certain language I use. So I might more introduce breathwork first and mindfulness before I bring the yoga word out. And I think that's just practicing and the Bible Belt where there's certain, like you said, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, and more just seeing how open they are to actually including that into their therapeutic process, before we're signing up for a yoga class, any recommendations you have of how to incorporate some of these principles and sessions.

Speaker 2

41:14

I think that that's perfect. And then also some of what I've already said with not necessarily naming it as this is something that we do in yoga, or this is something that we talk about all the time in yoga, but rather just talking about it were the topics that they are and teaching people those skills that we are doing in yoga, and that are helpful in yoga and somatic movement oriented therapies within the traditional therapy space, walking people through how to breathe, practicing meditation with them practicing different visualization or mindfulness based interventions with them, to take some of that fear away from it as well. And then if they like it, or if it resonates, they might ask more questions about it. And then that does open up a conversation to share about yoga or whatever it is that that they're wondering about.

Speaker 1

42:09

Yeah, and then it kind of can be a supplemental, maybe like, quote, homework in between sessions, that this is what we do. But here's ways that you can continue to get nourished in that way, with the help of a professional, are there any specific interventions that you like, are tried and true for you, or whether it's a meditation app, or breathing exercise, or some sort of visualization that you have found that's been really useful?

Speaker 2

42:32

I really love the things that Insight Timer is doing right now. Love Insight Timer, yes, their courses and their meditations and just all of the things, I think they've got a great, a great app, a great thing going,

Speaker 1

42:47

is there anything that sticks out to you, that's pretty big strength of it. Like for me, I know that there is a category for everyone. So if you want it to be much more spiritually based, they kind of tailored to that. But if you want it to be more visualization, or more based on you know, feeling happy, like I do, like the way that they're, I guess, interface and kind of meet the needs of anybody that's pursuing this.

Speaker 2

43:09

Totally agree, I love the specificity. And then once again, they're doing the same thing where they're assessing their person's needs, and letting them kind of guide themselves. And I think that that's a lot of times what we what we need to be doing, as mental health professionals, and then also within a more integrative care perspective to or within healthcare in general, really, if we're honest. Another thing that I will say I think helps is just being involved outside of your business and within the community to even if it's in different organizations in your community, and working in collaboration, so that we are promoting United these things, as well as creating small exposures to a counselor or therapist, a yoga instructor, or someone that knows about these topics, or can provide these experiences in other spaces. So that our population around us is more aware of what it is and we can kind of over time gradually debunk the the mental health stigma there and the the yoga stigma too. That's there. Yeah.

Speaker 1

44:31

So is there anything specific you do maybe like talks or donation base classes or anything that kind of helps to make your impact in the community?

Speaker 2

44:39

Mm hmm. So I do put myself out there to a lot of schools and totally open to help them with whatever it is what they're needing or just to consult with them. Or also, different companies to I really like to work with companies like I got to work with a Dance Company within the last year, where I got to talk about healthy boundaries and communication skills and bullying, and digital citizenship and all of those things. Where there was already kind of a movement oriented practice, obviously with dance, but then also talking about kind of the unity in the group and doing something around that while also providing some education around things that are important. And then also helping the little ones see that the counselors are not the enemies are scary. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1

45:41

That's great. And I see that it's at the yoga studio seem to also be advocating whether it's like trying to meet the needs of working with military or getting to other populations. And I really like those donation based classes or community classes that make it much more approachable, if that feels really intimidating to walk into a, you know, very standard, like yoga studio, and different yoga studios that tailor why be more towards like the origins of yoga versus maybe more of like the fitness aspect but still infuses a lot of those principles.

Speaker 2

46:09

Mm hmm. And I'm definitely more of a mind body based yoga studio unless of the intense fitness. Somebody like

Speaker 1

46:20

Corey yoga classes there? No,

Speaker 2

46:23

I do do one because honestly, the core is just so important for executing all of the poses. And I think that there's a lot to there within the gut. And within the thing that's supporting your entire spine, you know, it's kind of a big deal.

Speaker 1

46:37

Yeah, no, and there's lots of literature coming to support that to you how important that gut is to our mental health.

Speaker 2

46:42

Exactly. And that's like a whole nother conversation that's just so fascinating to go into. But yeah, donation base classes, and then also putting yourself out there to other groups and, and businesses that have similar or the same mission as you. So teaching a yoga class to a nonprofit, for the clients that they serve, and things like that.

Speaker 1

47:08

Yeah, I think that's something that I really enjoyed about my yoga teacher training, we were required to give back to the community for several hours and provide yoga in a population that may not traditionally get access to it. And so I was able to do one with individuals with disabilities and be able to get them to understand how they can start feeling more at home in their body. And that was something that was so powerful to experience then too. So I do think that there are definitely organizations that are trying to bring that community into it, the importance of how that can make a difference and how our community actually functions. What I guess, specific tips that helped you along the way maybe for us to give some specific guidance to listeners if they want to look more into either infusing yoga into their practice, or even maybe like some of these trainings, like you talked about, about actually doing yoga therapy, any tips that helped you along the way

Speaker 2

47:59

so really just getting started I think with everything is the hardest part of it, but it's the part that so worth it and then not giving up if something doesn't resonate with you. So if it's just not the right instructor for you, or not the right study studio for you, which I might not be the right instructor or the the right studio for everyone either. And that's okay. And I'm totally accepting of that. But just trying different things out trying different formats of yoga. Just getting your feet wet with all things kind of, that's what I did even in my professional experience as a counselor too, is I just, I've done a little bit of a whole lot of things. And I think that that served me really well and yoga is really no different than that. My program it really I think should be Ay ay ay YT certified or approved. Kind of like that's

Speaker 1

48:55

like the International credentialing body for yoga. Exactly, or

Speaker 2

48:59

for yoga therapy or yoga. It's more the yoga Alliance accredited program. But even just getting started with a 200 hour ROIC, which is just your basic yoga instructor certification. I mean, that can that can definitely help you but make sure that it is a program that is more science based and is more evidence based, because really, unfortunately, anyone can kind of create a certification program that you can just kind of walk through and it might not actually be totally right or promoting the right things, but having one that is science based like yours in and mine definitely were is definitely helpful.

Speaker 1

49:43

I do think that helps to keep sort of like the standards to where we are keeping people physically safe during this. But a lot of the infusion isn't even about the asana or the poses, which is something that I think helps make it more approachable, even if it's helping to infuse having our clients drop their shoulders from ears during session, or like we talked about, like doing breath work in session. And I found that sometimes if I'm model that it would be useful to me to that maybe I'm also feeling a certain kind of way we can start the session with that. It makes it feel less like what whoo is, but a lot of my clients will call it that, you know, oh, we're doing deep breathing, or being able to talk about how certain mindfulness exercises or meditations have been useful to me, and let's kind of experiment what could be useful to them as well. Like, for me, I know, I consciously have to use visualization because my brain can get in its own way. And if I have guidance to visualization, I find my body responds a lot more powerfully to that, versus just my own, you know, left to my own devices at all. And then there's also lots of books, I feel like we have a lot of colleagues that have really come out with how to infuse, whether it's Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, and yoga, or CBT. And yoga, working with anxiety, I think is one workbook I have I feel like there's been a lot more coming out to make it more approachable and things that we can actually infuse into an office setting, even if we're not calling it obviously, like the formal yoga therapy.

Speaker 2

51:02

Totally agree. You know, I'm actually a really big fan of the Instagram famous holistic psychologist, I love her. Re I'm actually starting her book right now I'm a little behind on it. Compared to what I what I wanted, but I'm working on letting go of that expectation.

Speaker 1

51:20

Don't you mentally at all, you're coming as you are now. And that's what you're gonna explore next.

Speaker 2

51:25

But big fan of her and you know, the more I read, the more I'm like, wow, this is exactly how I think and how I'm trying to do things. And that's, that's awesome. And it's also very affirming, because she's so wonderful and successful. And just everything love her. Yeah, I

Speaker 1

51:40

think Dr. Nicole really helps to infuse things of like internal family systems, then also with just somatic work with trauma informed work. So maybe even finding very approachable people via social media, I follow it was it somatic experiencing on Instagram, and the way that they kind of break down certain concepts that just really helps me with my language, to then provide that to my clients I found so beneficial,

Speaker 2

52:04

agreed, agreed, hey, any general

Speaker 1

52:07

not to dues. So we've given a few listeners a lot of things to kind of dig into further. But any things that you either learn the hard way, or you just have seen that it has been harmful to individuals.

Speaker 2

52:21

I wouldn't advise doing anything that doesn't feel like the right fit for you. And I would also definitely avoid pushing clients in a direction to do something that they're not comfortable with or to talk about something that they're not comfortable with, you kind of have to have a little bit of discernment there of when, when to press and when not to, but respecting what they what they're experiencing, and what they feel that they need. Because they do know their their body best and they know what they need, and their experience better than you ever could. And I don't think that that's something that we want to accept as healthcare providers just generally speaking, but it's true nonetheless. So because everyone's subjective experience is totally valid. I think it's also important not to take things personally for us if something isn't resonating with the client, or if they're just not open or ready for something yet. Or if you're just not the right person for them. I think all of those things are totally okay. Because remember different things work for different people and not and everything just tends to happen as it's ready to kind of, as you see to with trauma work, things pop up as it's kind of ready. Don't ever argue or negate someone's experience, or what they're trying to explain to you about their truth. Let them just process it through with you or let them come back to it when they're ready. Because it is valid, and we don't want to cut that line of communication off or scare them away from it, or potentially re traumatize them by invalidating their experience which they might have already had through different significant numbers of their lives. Yeah, it

Speaker 1

54:19

can be really helpful to understand that these defense mechanisms that might frustrate us as clinicians were meant to serve to protect them growing up. And so that's all we're seeing is these protective measures and that with time that can be something that becomes more flexible, exactly. That it is not about us. I think that's really useful recommendations of how to come but in a way that's very open with them. Like I've also seen with some clients that literally sitting down and doing meditation is not useful to them. But walking is a form of meditation for them or gardening can be that still same place. It almost gets them into that calm frequency where they can observe things or something Swimming. So I think also for practitioners, being able to be a little bit creative and flexible that we've talked more specifically about yoga today. But anything that gets the mind and body back into that synergy and have them communicating with each other are things that we can get on board with so that it doesn't have to look exactly like our, quote, prescription of, you know, healthy habits.

Speaker 2

55:18

Exactly. And helping them ma'am. What's actually been helpful, helpful for them, or what they have, like before in the past can be the key to doing that too. Just hearing the person out and their experience, and what resonates with them. And then using that, being able to kind of like think on your feet like that more from a client centered approach, and incorporate the mindfulness that way, too. Yeah.

Speaker 1

55:45

And if I come in a way that is very open, that I'll take whatever works, I think that also helps take some of the pressure off of clients for them to do it, right, or feel that they don't fail at it. That's like, Look, I am humble enough to know that lots of things work for lots of different people. And what worked for me once doesn't work another so I'm constantly open. And that's what we're going to do here is just add more to your toolbox not feel like we have to find the one again, perfect tool that's going to solve any sort of discord.

Speaker 2

56:10

Exactly, yes. So

Speaker 1

56:13

if there is any sort of like recommendations that you have, you've talked a lot about, you know, credentialing bodies, I know our yoga training YogaFit, I found it really beneficial because of the structure of it. And then also, there was additional sort of like modules you could take to get more specialties and more understanding in certain areas, how I took trauma informed or working with military, individuals in yoga, any other things that people who are interested in knowing more you might recommend that you haven't mentioned.

Speaker 2

56:43

Honestly, I really love yoga fit for all the yoga therapy and yoga oriented things, too. I wasn't sure if we were naming like brands or anything like that

Speaker 1

56:52

we're not sponsored. That's just our personal experience. If something did work that we found useful, agreed,

Speaker 2

56:57

agreed. I'm really just keeping your mind open to a lot of different perspectives to you see something interesting, read it, watch it, listen to it, hear it out? And then just keep doing that, really just creating more exposure?

Speaker 1

57:13

Yes. And those of you that maybe are listening and wondering how does this go with, you know, evidence based care or managed care, I thought isn't necessarily something that managed care is gonna love to see like infused yoga in therapy. But I found being able to document breath work that we're doing Somatic Experiencing work that we're doing. Managed Care has never had an issue with that. So I do think that there are ways to infuse these principles or some of these practices in a way that still is supported by insurance companies. Because I mean, we do just happen to work within the certain confines, within ethic board, ethics board, but also understanding that we're not necessarily having them do you know, a vinyasa yoga flow here in session, it is maybe doing some movements that are more like safe and things that are just more releasing the tension in the body and getting them to know what it feels like to say within the body. Because I know that's a whole different discussion, actually putting therapy and yoga together, and liability and consent and all those kinds of things. But there are ways that you can infuse some of that the same way that we might infuse creativity in our therapy sessions.

Unknown Speaker

58:14

Totally agreed, yes, all of those things.

Speaker 1

58:18

So if they're interested in knowing more about what you're doing Sidney any social media handles website are ways that they might be able to reach out

Speaker 2

58:26

Yes, so my website is actually in the process of being read done right now. So it might be under construction by the time you look me up, but my website is true yoga therapy, all one word.com And my social media handles are at true yoga therapy.

Speaker 1

58:43

Awesome. And what's in store for the future for you Sydney, any plans that you have for the new year or ways that you're going to kind of move forward in your practice.

Speaker 2

58:53

Um, so I'm really moving to embrace group work within the studio domain including bringing in collaboration from other providers around so we're doing some workshops on Integrative Nutrition. So eating for a variety of different illnesses such as anxiety, depression, and chronic inflammation, for instance. As well as keeping up with yoga and the yoga therapy groups and then I'm also doing a women's wellness book club starting in January that's exciting probably a few months and we're gonna go through doctrine Cole's book, because I'm just in love with it. We're gonna do that and I mean, I have some I have goals as I always have small and large are near future and far future so

Speaker 1

59:51

yeah, no, I hear a hair a common theme that it's very like community based and I think that's very exciting because as clinicians we can get very burned out and client after client after client But that seems to be a real value system for you is being able to approach the community and how this can help the community.

Speaker 2

01:00:07

Yes, it absolutely does. And I have to say, I think it's beneficial for me too, because I need a lot of stimulation. And though it does come with challenges at times to be doing different things, you know, all the time. It is it is very stimulating. And it's it's fun and exciting, and it's different and new and all the things. It's great.

Speaker 1

01:00:29

Well, Sydney, thank you for joining us today and talking a little bit about how we can infuse these yoga principles into energizing our therapeutic practice or even expanding it as well. I really, really appreciate your time and for the audience. Thank you for joining us again on another episode of the thoughtful counselor. The tougher counselor is Deza Daniel, Raisa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Taylor.

Speaker 3

01:01:11

AC Diane Ananias. Really tough. And me, Megan Smith, Shelly. Find us online at the thoughtful counselor.com. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at Palo Alto u.edu forward slash concept. The views and opinions expressed on the thoughtful counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors. Nor of our sponsor, Palouse University. So if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at the thoughtful counselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.

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