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Hello, everyone, this is Desa Daniel. And I really excited to have Dr. Gigi Awad with us today, talking about her research interests, what she's currently working on some of the projects in her lab, but also some of the advocacy initiatives she's done over the years. So we're just going to jump straight in and start with a brief introduction. So Dr. Awad, tell us who you are. What are some things that we should know about you? What is your research agenda?
Wow, those are really excellent questions and very pointed. Well, I'm, I'm Germine Awad, and most people call me Gigi. And so if you ever meet me, don't try to introduce your Germine to me, because that's also me. But I have done work over the past, I don't know 18 or so years of my career, and the areas of prejudice, racism and discrimination. And I've also done work on identity and acculturation, really, usually in terms of how they relate to experiences of discrimination and prejudice. I have several different streams of research and advocacy that I do. So really, I like to characterize them in terms of different outcomes I focus on so I've worked, I focused on educational outcomes, as well as mental health as well as identity and so on. So there's a lot happening, probably what I'm most well known for his work on Arab and Middle Eastern North African populations. Given that, you know, that research area has been really blossoming, I would say, in the last 10 years or so, my co editor, Mona Ammar, and I wrote the handbook of air American psychology, which is a comprehensive text of 28 chapters, covering all of the relevant fields pertaining to the psychology of Arab Americans. So yeah, so I've read a lot of research on this topic, as well as done a good amount of research.
Thank you for that I, I first met you actually at an APA convention, where you were presenting research and talking about your research, which I was super excited about, but then later had the unique opportunity and privilege to serve with you on the division 45 Executive Committee. And I really was just really impressed overall by your focus, drive, but also making sure that people knew about AMENA PSY, and making sure they were advocating for Amina communities as a whole. And so I kind of wanted to start there and really just explain to people what is AMENA PSY and how did it become an organization?
Well, I think AMENA PSY as an organization was in the works for over 20 years. You know, there were groups of psychologists from Arab and MENA backgrounds that were attending the APA convention, and they would find each other periodically and have a dinner so and always say, oh, it would be so good if we had some sort of organization. And basically, what really shifted for us has been sorry. What really shifted for us was when APA came out with the Hoffman report. And in that, there was a lot of how should I say it a disturbing information about the use of techniques to interrogate folks at Guantanamo Bay and the role of psychologists and interrogations of so called terrorists. And what we found was that there was no one out there to really make a statement that represented our particular community. Because, as you know, those who are Arab and MENA are typically perceived to be Muslim. Right? There's a conflation. Oftentimes, people don't know the difference between those who are Arab Amina, and those who are Muslim. Muslims come from a lot of different ethnic and racial backgrounds. And even Christian or AMENA are assumed to be Muslim. And so there's an intricate and close relationship between the experiences of Muslims and the experiences of Arab Mena, regardless of whether or not they identify as Muslim. And so we just needed a voice and there was no one and so we came up with the Arab American network at that moment, and then slowly, my colleague, Mona Ammar, and I came up with an idea to create a steering committee. And so we brought in Dr. Neville Brewery. And the three of us then came up with names of individuals that we wanted to invite to be honest steering committee, that will eventually create AMENA PSY. So we chose people with diverse country of origin ancestries, as well as people in different stages of their career. And we wanted to end in different religious backgrounds, because we really want it to be diverse and really coming from this very broad geographic region that is so diverse. So we did that. And then we launched the organization officially in 2017. And I guess, this is where we are now. So I was the inaugural treasurer, I was, you know, one of the three co founders, but the inaugural treasurer of the organization. In terms of the first, you know, first treasurer, voted in, and I am currently the president elect for me. And so my, my hope is that this organization stays strong. You know, I know it's corny, but, you know, I always think of, you know, some lyrics from Hamilton musical, where he says, I want to create something that's gonna outlive me. And that's exactly how I feel about AMENA PSY. So my number one priority is how do we create an organization that's sustainable over time, and that once the core folks who transition off of leadership go, then it's gonna say, and it's gonna last, like the other ethnic minority psychological associations have? So anyways, that's a long answer. To your question about AMENA PSY.
Yeah, I think that was actually perfect, because it reminds me of how much work happened in the forefront that we don't really even know about. But just understanding that as a whole, this organization kind of emerged. And that's really what I found about it when it was already in the working in order to get it going. So one of the things you talked about was kind of covering a diverse group of people in the the geographic region, and I wanted to know more about what geographic region are you talking about? Who is included in a AMENA PSY?
Uh, yeah, that's a great question. So, oftentimes, so when we define the MENA region, we're talking about all of the 22 countries that are part of the Arab League, that include countries like Lebanon, and Jordan, and Egypt and Morocco, and so on, and there's a lot there's 22, you can look it up easy, super easy. You can google and then MENA specifically adds Turkey and Iran, that are non Arab countries. And sometimes you have Armenia added in there sometimes. Israel's added, it just depends who is sort of offering the definition and for what purpose. The two countries that are not included in MENA that are often mistaken as MENA are Afghanistan and Pakistan. And the only reason they're not included is because of because part of where the term how the term mean is being used currently is part of advocacy efforts for the US Census to include to remove Middle East and North Africa, out of the White category, so that we can actually count this group properly. And Afghanistan and Pakistan is already included under sort of the pan asian designations. And so it's really just more about if you think about it from a research standpoint, and people who are already included in in spaces now whether or not folks for for example, Afghanis feel, that they're part of me that they're more than welcome to be a part of me now. But in terms of definitions that we try to keep orthogonal or mutually exclusive to, to some extent, though, that's sort of the common definition of MENA.
Thank you for that. The reason I ask is because especially when we are thinking about being as culturally inclusive as culturally humble in our own counseling practices, or in training students, I wondering, what should therapists know? Or where can they start to get more information about working with these communities at supporting these communities.
So there are actually several great publications. There is, you know, books, there's a book called counseling Arab and Muslims. There's the handbook of Arab American psychology, there's a many articles, I think, really just taking the time to look up the literature. And the research is key. Because especially with this group, because they are understudied, comparatively speaking to other ethnic minority groups, people make assumptions that are really based on stereotypes and counselors, and psychologists and therapists do the same thing in terms of resorting to these biases. And so, and some of these common biases are sort of this notion of, you know, women being oppressed within this culture, sort of automatically assuming that you know, what's happening within the group. But oftentimes, that's really coming from ignorance, because you don't actually understand the variability and the cultural differences of subgroups within the MENA category. So I would say, take the time, and actually read about it. You know, I have some amazing colleagues doing great work, you know, practitioners that have had so many years of experience have written about their experiences working with these populations specifically. So I really invite you all to look up some of those scholars and some of those studies in Silvia master McMillan has done a lot of work in this area. And others, I mean, there's just, Mona Amor has done also a lot of work in this area. I am not a counseling or clinical or school psychologist or a counselor educator. So I rely on my colleagues that are practitioners and or at least practice some of the time to sort of do that, but but that's what I would love for them.
Yeah, and I know your your backgrounds in education, psychology is not current.
I my degree actually is in applied Experimental Psychology. It's not something that rolls off the tongue easily. But I am in an educational psychology department. So you are.
And the reason I asked you today is not just because you're my mentor, and friend, but also because I know that you have created this amazing network of clinicians and researchers and educators and you yourself as an educator as well. And so when we're talking about immediate communities, and preparing students to understand their biases in that community, or how they may be making decisions based off stereotypes, how can educators like myself, begin to bring these conversations up in the classroom and really educate our students towards what's occurring in the MENA community, but then also how to support the AMENA community?
Well, honestly, I think it would be really good to just, you know, visit the AMENA PSY website and see sort of current events that are happening and or if you have students that are from Arab or MENA backgrounds to refer them to, I mean, aside because it's a really great support for them. In terms of literature, also on the website, there's, you know, book lists of books and things that people have Random on the population that we will be trying to attempt to update more regularly. But there there really is, I would say so many more resources and people think, you know, one of the, I would say the things that I hear that is not really true, oftentimes is that oh, there's nothing out there on Arab AMENA books. And that's not true, there is actually a good handful of research at least enough so that we, you know, know, something's pretty well about this community. And so, and certainly, there's much more research that's needed. Absolutely true. But there's not, there's not nothing. So I think using the resources that are already out there is really important, and just taking the time to read about it. I mean, it is, it's just like any other group, if you don't know about any other group, you would take, hopefully, take good time. Ask somebody or, you know, find some literature that helps educate you about it.
Yeah, it as you're talking about that, I kind of wonder, in your opinion, you know, as you say, for other groups, you know, if you're doing the work and research on black communities, or Asian communities, or LatinX communities, I wonder if you have any thoughts on why there may be a gap in how we're interacting with immediate communities or how they show up in educational spaces?
Yeah, they don't show up. I mean, I think that the gap is that people. So so there's a lot of issues here, I would say that the Arab MENA community are invisible in all of these spaces and the prime, the primary reason, my opinion is that they're invisible at the census. And federal data collection level. They're, they're invisible, and absent from the Office of Management and Budget classifications, and what we would call the minimal reporting standards for race and ethnicity. Okay. So if you if institution, they're not forced to collect the data on the demographics of whoever's in those institutions, then they're not going to do it. I mean, that's how it is right? And so Arab, AMENA subsumed under white, so they're invisible and all of these spaces, and we don't even have a lot of data to get at denominators when we're trying to get at issues like prevalence and incidence rates for diseases, and trying to figure out educational disparities and so on. So the primary issue, really is the invisibility of this group has consequences in all of these other ways, where people are like, oh, yeah, and this group. So if there's no one in the room that either has close ties with this group, personally, or as part of that group, then those issues don't get bought. And that will change once. The Census does have like a separate checkbox and people that are like, oh, there's this separate box? Oh, yeah, we have to make sure to include them. And so it sounds like something so simple. And oftentimes I talk about the sunsets, people like, Okay, here's a checkbox, not simply a checkbox, the thing is, is that the Census determines how race and ethnicity data are collected in every sector of our society. Because people look to the Census for how to do it. And if they're not collecting it, then it's not being collected. And then therefore, this, this group is invisible, more talking about anything in every sector, we're talking about education in the workplace, you know, and health and mental health and so on. So, you know, it's not surprising that it's really difficult to bring up these issues unless you again, have close ties with folks or you are attuned to the issue of them being invisible and bringing it up. And so part of what is important, especially with this particular group, is that ally ship is incredibly important, where, you know, we need allies to speak up, because we can't be in all of these spaces. To sort of point out like, Okay, well, how about Arab MENA? How about Arab MENA? What's going on with Arab? And so that's why it's difficult, extra, extra hard.
Yeah. And I, I do want to touch on allyship. But I kind of want to start first with and I and I personally know that you've done a lot of work with the census. And you've been involved in making sure that how research is collected and how we're reporting these numbers is very different in the future. And so I was hoping you could just give us a little bit of information or just help us with the learning curve of what is the census outside of my normal view of every 10 years. I should probably fill it out.
Yeah. I mean, if you don't fill it out, they'll come and find you. But, um, they so so there's a decennial census. And that's the one that everyone is sort of when they think about the census, they think about the decennial census. The census does way more than that. It's collecting data on everything, like the number of toilets that you might have in their houses and stuff like that you don't think about that they're doing. However, for the purposes of my work with with them, it really has been primarily on how to properly count Arab Mena and North African communities. And, you know, basically, the census sought out individuals from the Middle East or North African community, right after the 2010 decennial census, because they had an issue come up with this community. In that over 1 million Arab Mena, North African folks wrote in some other ways, checked some other race, and wrote in their ethnicity outside of the White category that they have. And they're like, whoops, this is not a good form, we are missing something, we need help. Let's gather a group of scholars activists in a room and figure out how do we actually count this population properly. And so it started for me at that time. A partnership where we worked with trying to help them come up with a name that was inclusive. So that's where me and I came from, because it was the least controversial and the most inclusive and just dealt with region, even though it is a colonial term. And a lot of folks have issues with that. In terms of just it being the most the simplest to use, that's what we decided. But essentially, what ended up happening was that so you brought a group of us together, I actually had some data that helped them sort of or to help make the point that guess what, if you have a MENA category, or Arab Canada category, people will check it off? Yeah. So that was my simple contribution to early sort of talks. But in 2015, the National Content Test was conducted. And that was really important, because it was essentially a $7.8 million research endeavor by the US Census to try to test different ways of asking their questions for the 2020 decennial census. So in 2015, the US census conducted National Content Test. And on this test, they included different permutations of having a mean a box or not. And they also measured which groups within the MENA community are more likely to check AMENA box when it was present, versus when only a white box is present, and so on. So they did some really cool nerdy analyses to figure out, you know, how Amina box should be presented. And what they found, which was really important, was that when AMENA box was present, people from MENA backgrounds tended to check it. I know, it seems simple, but they needed that information, and they got it. So we were really excited as researchers because this just confirmed what we thought, and what we found in our own work. Well, in 2017, they had to make a decision by a particular deadline, to meet the operational deadline for the US decennial census in 2020. But in 2017, also that corresponded with the Trump administration being in office, and the Trump administration essentially stalled and did not make a decision. And therefore none of the findings from the 2015 National Content Test were incorporated in the 2020 decennial census. So just to be clear, the US Census did suggest that there be AMENA box added to the decennial census, and the Office of Management & Budget at the time did not respond. And so essentially, it stalled the efforts completely.
And it wasn't adopted. And so for 2020, we got a different form, and the form was actually really ridiculous. They did make some changes by adding Oh, it seems that many people don't Czech white. So maybe if we just give them examples of white people, so that I think some of the examples are like German, Irish, Italian, and then Lebanese and Egyptian. So people are like, Wait Lebanese and Egyptian So okay, so it's just there was a frustrating thing. They not only kept it in the White category, but actually used the best example for the white guy. However, you know, I don't know what the 2020 decennial census data is going to look like, I'm kind of excited see it, you still have people with the option of clicking Some Other Race. But the thing that is new about the 2020 decennial census is that now they have country codes. Now, why is that significant is because in 2010, and before, if someone put Egyptian or Lebanese or whatever, you wouldn't be able to tell because it was all part of that white category. And it wasn't pulled out, there was no country code. But now even if someone puts Lebanese in the White category, or Lebanese and some other race, we can count the number of Lebanese. So it's definitely an improvement from previous years. And we might get some data. However, anytime you have to write in something, it's not that great because people don't like to write stuff. So we at least it's something. And that's where we are right now on census. The Biden administration is currently trying to incorporate the MENA category in some federal surveys. And so I'm working with a group of people that are in contact with the Biden administration, folks in office and Management and Budget to try to incorporate them in a category and some of like workplace and Health Surveys and stuff. They're done. But they got that. So there's some movement. But you know, it's slow.
Yeah, I think, just by nature of paying taxes and interacting with the, the federal government, in my own civilian matter, has reminded me that things are very slow to change. And while there is a big debate about if people are progressive or not, we're not really progressive with time and making things change quickly, or reflect what's happening maybe in the US context as a whole. It's something else I was thinking, as you're talking is just how like, how did you get involved with the senses? How did you? Like what day did you wake up? But you're like, I know that I want to work on these these different policy matters, or do policy research. Tell us tell us more about that
part? Yeah, I mean, I wish I could say, wow, you know, I was just sought out because I'm just so amazing. But that's not what happened at all. I mean, the way that it happened was completely for. I saw there was a woman by the name of Rita Stefan, who had just recently graduated from UT and sociality. And I had heard her name and read some of her writings from some of my connections with Arab American Studies. And I was like, oh, I need to meet Rita. Because Rita is here. And I just got here. I wanna I want a friend in Austin. That's an Arab. So I emailed her. And it turned out that she said, she just left she's like, Oh, we just left Austin. But I'm working at the US Census. Now. I'm the first Arab ancestry expert. And I was like, Ah, wow, that's amazing. I do some work on identity, actually, with the Arab population where I try to figure out how they identify racially. And what happens when you have certain boxes. I'm like, Wow, it's so interesting. I'm so glad you're there. It's such important work. And then she said, Wait, what you're collecting data that was like, Yeah, we collected data on this, I have some data on this. And she's like, Oh, that's amazing. You know, what, um, in the next few months, I'm gonna invite some folks that are experts on this community to come to the US Census, and present their data to the census. And so I was invited, and then it always, all the rest is history. So I've been doing I've been doing this work ever since. But it wasn't like, oh, that that doctor a lot of that person we need. I mean, and then what was really cool. So once you have friends like that work in the federal government and these spaces so I as an independent scholar, like all of us who are professors, we have a lot of freedom. We can do the research we want, for the most part, and so when you work for the government, you can't do the research. You want to do the research that you have to do and totally do. And so one of the things that was pretty cool is that I got to see a preview of what they were thinking that they might test for National Content Test. And I actually included it in one of my surveys before that. So I got to preview it, and then include it in my studies, and then also use it to report back to them. And so it helped them cement the decision to carry out the National Content Test and test them in a category. So it's a nice little behind the scenes thing that I'm very proud. kind of happen that way.
Yeah, I think something else that really speaks to is just how important networking is. And this idea that you really never know where those connections will take you or what those connections happen or unfold of the future in and for the rest of us who are cool enough to have a friend who works for the Census. Do you have suggestions? Any thoughts or feedback for students or professors or even like mental health therapists who really want to inform policy in some way and aren't sure where to start?
Yeah, that's a really great question. I think that there are several ways you can do that. You can write op eds. So if you have a particular kind of expertise, writing them and having those opinion pieces out there, where you're highlighting your expertise as to why you are an expert, able to write those things. I think that's helpful. I think people read up ads, I think policy people do. I also think, you know, as a researcher, I do the research that they want to see to help them make their cases. And I think that was really the key. Like I was actually already doing the research, I wouldn't have been invited just because I had met someone, or whatever I was invited because my research was on this. And I had data and I was conducting this work. And so what was fortuitous is meeting her. Right. But not, it wasn't necessarily fortuitous that my work was being hired, because that's what they're looking for. They're constantly trying to make those connections. And so I think an op eds is actually a great way to have people in policy find you. Because they don't care about the research articles you're reading. No one cares. That's not I mean, they're great. It's good for scholarship, it's good for science, it's good for research, but it's not going to do anything for policy, they want policy briefs, they want op eds, they want it condensed and able and distilled so that they could, you know, are able to sort of take it in quickly. I, you know, when I went to the success, the first time I had a one page, like outline of my findings. That's it. And I just passed it out to all of them, and did not, you know, elaborate? I answered questions about it. But I did not have a paper for them to read on it. I mean, I gave it to them later when they wanted it later for citations. But like I was like, No, this is what I found. So you have to know how to take your information and translate it for policy. That is a skill set. We don't learn that in the academy. And the Academy, we write exorbitantly long theses and dissertations. And they're important for getting your degree, but they're not really that practical to actually helping in any other way. And yes, that may be controversial. That's how I feel. And we have students write all of this stuff, there's not going to do anything for policy, no one's going to go look up your dissertation. And even when you want your dissertation cited and use, you have to publish it outside of the dissertation lab. So you know, there are, I would say publish your work in a journal and then take that journal article and condense it for an op ed, or a policy brief and send it to folks. You know, call your reps. You know, there are just a lot of different ways that this can happen. If you're interested in something specifically, there's an organization out there that is designed to care about that to contact those organizations. Ask them how you can help say you're doing work in this area, you know, or you have this expertise or experience. I mean, so there's a lot of different ways you can do it. You don't have to, you know, know someone or something. You could, you know, you can do it in a lot of different ways.
Yeah, I think something you really highlighted is just the importance of making sure our work is readable, consumer consumer, consumable, but also tangible Like not just big academic terms, or what kind of works of the academy, but what do our everyday neighbors people we interact with? How do they consume that information? And then are they pushed to action? Because it's not just like, oh, this is a good theory and everything. But then what do I do with that theory?
Right now? I mean, it's not they want to know, very distilled, and even lawmakers who have like advanced degrees and want it distilled. They're like, Oh, this is too hard. We don't know what to say. So I mean, it's, you have to know how to translate
it, then I want to stay on this for just one more question. It really talks about ally ship. So you you brought it up earlier, on the importance of, of immediate communities needing allies or people bringing up immediate issues and spaces where maybe there isn't another voice to do that. And I wonder, how how do people become allies? How do they support either IV Desai or other organizations towards this work? And really understand what current issues are the issues we should be bringing up in all spaces?
Well, I think, you know, first and foremost, we don't, we have limited time and space in our brains, right? Like we are always cognitively busy. So we don't really have necessarily a space for every issue. But the ones that are important or move you or you heard about and wow, you were, you know, you really learned something new and you want to help communities. I think like those are the ones you should pay attention to. And so if someone says to you, you know, with Arab MENA stuff, I would like, you know, it'd be great if you can tell your institutions to add an Arab MENA box to their whatever data collection, that'd be great, you know, or ask questions when you don't see it. You know, that was the we are MENA campaign that was launched by AMENA PSY, was really about like adding a checkbox ever, all the surveys every all the data collection right? Now, I think, you know, I think just speaking up and understanding your positionality is really important. So in all of us have different positions that are contextual. So in some contexts, some of us have a voice that's heard more than others, or some of us have privileged more than others. And that shifts, not just by group membership, but by context, right. And so, you know, in spaces in which someone so I studied prejudice, racism, discrimination, so I'm always like, hot and like, you know, like, attune to issues of oppression for all groups of color. And that's how I function, so I'm not. So if I know about it, and it's happening to a minoritized group, I usually bring it up, if I see that it's being perpetuated in a space that I'm in, to my detriment, most of the time bringing this up to, you know, powerful folks. But I learned probably early on in my career, I'm not going to be the president of a university that I want people like, but you know, I still have a job to speak up when I can, in a way that people can hear it as well. So I think you've got to figure out what those things are for you, and who you who needs your voice. Right, who you would want to have your back for issues that are important to you. So I think, you know, it's like, do want to others as you'd like them to do on to you is part of it. But also there's a larger social justice issue. And that is, it's our job to fight for justice for everybody. Everybody's experiencing oppression, you fight for it, if you are aware, and you understand, right, like, don't start talking about stuff you don't know anything about because you might like offend somebody. But, but if you understand if you know, then you you know, you should speak up and it's hard. It's hard to speak up because it's much easier to stay by it. And I want to also acknowledge, sometimes we're not in positions in which we can speak up. You are student that tried to get out who had finished with your degree. You're an assistant professor trying to get tenure, you're just started a new job you're trying to you know, so there of course are times you have to read the landscape. But when you can, I think it's important to always speak up.
Thank you for that. I want to ask you one more question about AMENA PSY before we kind of transition more into Your work with racial identity and all of that stuff I'm really excited to ask you about. But what do you say? And and you and I have talked about this a lot. But what do you say to people who feel as though they can't join AMENA PSY or support AMENA PSY because they're not psychologist?
Oh, we have a friend of AMENA PSY membership that you can join easily. And you don't have to like him to be indebted to the organization, you could be supportive in that way and join and be up on, you know, the content and on the listserv and stuff. So I think that at least in terms of AMENA PSY, there's room for individuals who don't identify as Arab or MENA to be a part of the organization for sure. And to help others.
I love that your organization did that. Because I think too often there is a belief that we can support or we can only support in certain ways. Because there is a fear of being an ally, incorrectly or taking over or are speaking up when ways you may not, or should not exactly speak up. If that transitions me into kind of my final area I wanted to briefly touch on, which is your research. And I'll just be a fan girl. So why don't your total awesome that person in terms of the work that you're doing in terms of what you're publishing, the classes you're teaching you teach race, tell your students and your research lab is just doing such great work and getting so many great things out there. And in your opinion, why is racial identity important?
I think that, you know, it's a really important moderator. And sometimes mediator, right, depending on what you're meaning that relationships between other important variables and psychology depend on individual's racial identity, sometimes so and one particular type of racial identity that I'm talking about, is racial centrality. And that is how central or core is being part of your group to your identity. And that variable is going to affect how interventions work, you know, getting at racial disparities, it's going to affect a lot of different issues. And so for me, I found, you know, a Dr. Rob Sellars. His maybe scale and his centrality subscale specifically has been some of the most one of the most useful scales out there. Because it's so it's so simplistic in the sense that it's just perfectly parsimonious. And it's capturing this like simple important idea. And that is, how important is being a part of a group to you. And that variable is so predictive of so many outcomes that we use racial identity. And I would also say like how you think privately about your group. I mean, how you think about your self as part of the group, and also what you think the public thinks about your group are also important, but I still think racial centrality is incredibly important in terms of so if I want to say, Okay, well, how is racial identity affecting body image? Okay, well, I'm going to see, I want to know how important your racial identity is to you. And that's going to be the variable i use, if I want to see how race I don't use related or it could be, you know, how you think of yourself as a person, how you feel about yourself as a person of their group. So, um, I think, and there's certainly lots of great scales out there and different models, you know, there's an aggressive theory by Bill Prost. That's phenomenal, and it's really good in terms of you really want to think about how mental health is related to some of these issues. And I think the FMRI that that scales really good if you're trying to get at like, like some of these really poor things like racial centrality regard, public and private regard. And then the overlap is like, there isn't an assimilation sub scale on the cross on the crest And anyways, there's they, I don't want to get into all of this because it gets really, really crazy. But there are different constructs measured in, in multiple ways across different models. So depending on what you're thinking of, that's, um, you know, becomes important. But I I, here's the thing, though, you know, people need to be reminded that the study of how, you know, racial identity has been studied really early on in psychology was about it was a reaction to this notion that, in some ways came out of Brown versus Board of Education that black students and black children suffered from incredibly low self esteem. Right. And that simply just wasn't true. And part of what was happening in psychology early on, they're like, oh, gotta measure racial identity, we've got to figure out racial identity, racial identity, and looking at it in terms of how it is correlated self esteem and these other and even in the Greyson theory, the first pre encounter subscale was a pre encounter self hatred, because I assume that black folks before they sort of
reach their encounter that is encountering racial racial issues or the you know, that experience that sort of brought their ident racial identity to light for them. That before that, it was self hatred, which was not accurate, right. And so later, Bill cross actually amended that model to add in assimilationist, and missing miseducation beliefs, because it's too simplistic to say that black folks just hated that. So that's not that wasn't happening. And people and black folks were endorsing that scale, very highly, it was very low, like no one is, you know, whatever scale people were using to measure those, they weren't getting that those high points, those extremes, no one was very rare. Lee, were people actually endorsing that that one. So I feel like I just went all over the place and bunch of circles, but racial identity, super exciting. I think it is important, especially when you're thinking about identity, and it is one of those core.
Thank you for talking about just the history. But also, I don't think we've covered this idea of sensuality before and talking about how central race can be for people. I think there's a ton of conversation on how everyone needs to get a racial identity and why everyone should have one. But I don't think there's a lot of context or information about why that could be important and what it means to people. It's not that it is the same to everyone. But knowing that one piece could really change how we provide our interventions, how we teach students, how we include people, but just overall how people feel in spaces and how they actually feel included, when we are trying to include them. Right.
Absolutely. Thank you. Absolutely. So
finally, I wanted to touch on just my main question that I ask everyone, which is, what is one piece of advice that you would give current graduate students? Hmm. I think
I'm trying to find something that isn't so corny. But I think part of what I would say is use your power as a graduate student, that oftentimes we focus so much on, like the fact that's that graduate students are, in fact students, and they are, you know, reporting to an advisor or their professors or all of these different groups, but there's also power and being a student, and power that you have, that your professors don't have in voicing sort of what you want and what you need, because you all are really the future. And, and really are the ones who are good at reflecting the current times or in the zeitgeist of the times. So, you know, it's sort of the the age old issue of like, folks, you know, may get older and then be a little out of touch with what's happening. But graduate students aren't, they know what's happening. They're in it in the middle of it, and to use that power to sort of inform, and, of course, delicately and wasted, so like hurt you as a student, but to be able to use that, to make change, at least at the very least, that your institutions. And really, you can make change all across the country in the world, I mean, and really just harnessing that power and also enjoy. And it's really hard to say this. And I and I really have come to this conclusion after I was not a graduate student. But, you know, as a graduate student, I was given what me way more flexibility and leeway when I was at conferences, for example, where I walked up to folks that I read about, and just ask them questions about what they're working on and told them how much I admired them. And they, I mean, at that point, you know, they were just, they were usually very flattered, and wanted to talk to me more. And I feel like as a professional, I can't go up to folks now and be like, I just love you so much. I read this, I am just such a big fan. It's just different. It's a different vibe. But as a graduate student, you can actually walk up to anybody and say, you know, and hopefully, you know, their work now, like, who are you? Do you do something important? Like, don't walk up to some folks that you don't know. But for the folks you admire that you know about going ask those questions, do it. It's your time do I have so many pictures of all of these with my like, as a graduate student with these big names in the field, because I was just like, Oh, my God, I love you so much. And you know, one of those folks was Bill Cross. When I was a graduate student, I was just like, so such a big fan, and still am of Bill Cross. But he was so incredibly kind and welcoming to me as a student. And it meant so much. And it really cemented my desire to stay in psychology and to do the work that I do. You know, I remember one time, I was at a, at the cross cultural winter roundtable. And I was, you know, a poor graduate students, I was seeing, I don't know, with nine other graduate students in the room, probably more like four. But I, you know, we were saying about 22 blocks away from Teachers College. And I remember, I was trying to get to Bill Cross's session, because I was about to, you know, be late because I did not estimate how long it would take to walk there. And I show up 15 minutes late to a session, I'm mortified. So I'm trying to sneak in where he doesn't see me. And I sit down, and I thought I was successful. He was in the middle of a sentence. And he's talking to the other side of the room, and his back was a little turned to me. But then, I guess out of the corner of his eye, he saw that I had come in and sat down. And he stopped mid sentence and says I'm so glad you're here. And it was authentic. And I was like, Bill Cross just said my name through. And he knows who I am. And he remembers me, and he seemed happy to see me, genuinely. And that was just so meaningful. But that was also from me from years and going to conferences, and him seeing my face. And me asking him questions. But I felt like from that point on, you know, sort of cemented,
of course, my admiration for him, but also just, you know, he's such an amazing scholar, and an amazing person. And that was really important. And I try to remember that when students who are like I read your paper come up to me, which is still surreal to me, where I just, you know, also want to make sure that that's, you know, welcoming as kind as I can be because it wasn't really meaningful. And that was a full, you know, afforded our quarter to me.
That's just so nice. As someone who has been mentored by you and supported by you, every single time you said hi to me in a conference, I was very excited. So thank you for acknowledging my existence. That's my, your early ways. My my fangirling of just how excited I have to talk to you. So as we wrap up, tell us where should we look for you next? What are you working on next? How do we learn more about your research or about your work as a whole?
That is great question. Um, I have a research lab called the rage lab and it stands for Research on Anti Racism and gender equity and rage really fits my students and myself very well, especially around these issues. And, um, you know, my you could easily find, I have a website, which I have not updated. I'm so sorry. But you can find me on UT's website, which is more updated on twitter or instagram with I'm also really bad on that, but Twitter I'm not, it was kind of decent. Future Doctor Desa Daniel is the one who's taught me about Instagram, and I'm still learning. So I am I'm working on it. But
I? That's a really great question.
I will say one of the studies I'll talk about briefly one of the studies that I'm working on. So part of what I have done in my research program is to understand the ethnic minority experience of Arab MENA folks. And one study that I conducted to try to further understand it was a multi group path analysis that compared the relationship among acculturation identity, and how acculturation and identity impact discrimination, and then how discrimination impacts mental health, okay. And I did a multi group comparison with Arab MENA Americans, African Americans, Latin X and Asian Americans to see how those tabs are similar or relationships are similar and how they're different. And so right now, I'm in the process of writing up that particular manuscript. And there's some really interesting findings in terms of how experiences of discrimination not just discrimination, generally, but different types of discrimination relate to different types of mental health outcomes. So, for example, we have, you know, certain types of mental health like threats, and aggression related to both depression and anxiety for folks that because it's really anxiety provoking. But then other types are not like devaluation, which is, you know, when someone refers to in sort of a stereotypical way, or makes you feel like they think your group isn't smart, or the or group is lazy, that, for example, for African Americans and Asian Americans that did not at all relate to anxiety. And it did for Mena and Latin X, folks. So there's, there's some really interesting things that I found, and there still needs to be some follow up studies to understand why. But that's what I'm really excited about to talk to really think through what does it mean, to have a common ethnic minority experience as it relates to experiences of discrimination? And what does it mean, when those experiences are differentially related to mental health outcomes? So then, you know, trying to sort of really unpack that and understand why that is, is where I am right now.
I'm super excited to read it. And I just, I want to thank you, first and foremost, for just being here today and taking time out of your busy schedule to talk with us. But also, just thank you for continuing to make research so cool and easy to understand and digestible, especially for those of us who really want to learn more about research, have read it but aren't necessarily doing it ourselves. Like how do we continue to incorporate this awesome, important work that you're doing in these academic spaces into our everyday teaching environments, but also with our clients? Because we do know the world is getting more and more diverse. And it's important for us to look past just multicultural and social justice competencies to how people really feel about their lived experiences when they're meeting with us what are what about their mental health needs? So thank you for just everything. It for being such a wonderful mentor and supporter of all of my wonderful podcasts with everything else I have going on. So thank you everyone, for listening. Again, the key to Dr. Gigi Awad, we will have all of the links and information in the show notes so please follow up with her. Look her up. Follow the rage lab. They're doing excellent work and I look forward to seeing you in the next one. Thank you so much future Dr. Desa Daniel. It has been a pleasure. I appreciate you inviting me. Anytime. The Thoughtful Counselor is Desa Daniel, Raissa Miller, Aaron Smith, Jessica Tyler, Stacey Diane Arañez Litam,
and me, Megan Speciale find us online at the thoughtful counselor calm. Our funding is provided by Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about them at concept.paloaltou.edu. The views and opinions expressed on The Thoughtful Counselor are those of the individual authors and contributors and don't necessarily represent the views of other authors and contributors, nor of our sponsor, Palo Alto University. So if you have an idea for an episode, general feedback about the podcast, or just want to reach out to us, please drop us a line at thethoughtfulcounselor@gmail.com Thanks for tuning in and we hope to hear from you soon.
