Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.
Hello, everybody, my name is Dr. Jones, and I want to welcome you against a thoughtful counselor podcast. And I'm excited today to be with Dr. James Norris. And we will be talking this afternoon will tell you a little bit about him and his topic and then we'll jump right in. Dr. Norris received his PhD from the University of covenant and a School of Social and Behavioral Sciences in counselor education and supervision. He is an assistant professor at the University of Koblenz. He's a licensed mental health counselor in Washington State and licensed professional counselor in Arizona. He currently owns a private practice and is the founder of mature now strictly my family counseling and community center and nonprofit that provides psychoeducation social justice and advocacy work around mental health and African American community. In 2019, he was an NBCC fellow and part of 2020 cohort for the emerging leaders with Weiss's his research areas of interest include trauma and the incorporation of hip hop into the counseling profession. So Dr. James Norris, man, it's good to have you on here today.
Man, I'm happy to be here. Dr. Jones, you know, thanks for bringing me on to you know, have a fruitful conversation.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to looking forward to. So when when the first thing I use like to find out from people is like, I tell me a little bit about what brought you into the counseling field, what the what kind of was inside of you that made you think, hey, I want to become a counselor.
I think always growing up being an athlete, I always told myself, if I can't play any sports anymore, I wanted to get back, right. And I really didn't know what that meant, right? Initially, I didn't know what they were what profession, I would be going in to give give back. But then once I got done playing, and I did some work with you guys at a residential setting. And that really started to spark my interest, that this could be a pathway that I could give back and help young people, you know, cultivate, and pour into them, like people poured into me. So that's what I realized I needed to get a bachelor's degree. And then once I was in graduate school, at Seattle, you and a psychology program, I went through my own kind of transformation and realize like, this is the pathway, like if I can, if I can heal, or if I can have hope. And I can change some of the experiences or look at some of the experiences I've had in a different way and a healthier way. Like I want to give other people the opportunity to be able to do this, right. Yeah, that was like that moment that clicked for me like this is the space that I need to begin. Right.
So how has it been for you so far?
Man, it's been a great, you know, experience as much as I've poured into people, definitely crossed paths with a lot of people that have given back to me, right? am I serving them? Right? And so I think it is definitely where i were i supposed to be and I don't just see myself as a counselor, I see myself as a counselor living out how I want to be in the world. And so I would be doing this if I wasn't in the profession or not, but now the profession gives me this kind of pathway to live it out in my life work, right? So it's, it's great. But
you just you're flourishing wherever you put so this counseling wherever it is, you're gonna do it. Yes. And so on. Our topic today is on hip hop, mental health and black male. And so whenever we started talking about this, I got instantly excited. If anybody knows me, you know, I love hip hop first of all, so that was a big thing for me. So this is something that you like use Ready to talk about it? So let's just kind of chop it up a little bit what, what, what gets you into what's what? How does Hip Hop speak to you? It's probably the best way to say it. How does it speak to you?
Well, I just think about, like when I've been on this journey, and the counseling space for so long, my PhD and then reflecting on life, I just remember the pivotal times in my life, music, but hip hop was a part of it. Whether it was good or bad, the music was there as this kind of soundtrack to my life, right? Like this this past weekend, it was Mother's Day. And the song that was a part of the soundtrack of my life was Dear Mama from tuba, right. And so that's what I put out there with my mom's picture, right? Because it symbolizes kind of this relationship that I'll can never pay back, but always pay homage to. And so you know, hip hop has been that language when I didn't have the language, right to speak about my lived experiences right? Before to understand like this condition of being black, being male, and trying to navigate in a sand and in a society that doesn't see you as human most of the time, right? So it's been that bridge for me to really find my voice. But when I struggled with a year that gives me voice, right, so my lived experiences
so what are like the go to three, like, motivation? I'm just trying to get motivated for today, what's what's some couple go to GM?
You know, you know, as I grew up, you know, was born in the 80s. And then was growing up in the 90s, right, which was, what people were called the Golden ears and the golden years of paintball. And so I, you know, I was always in to pop was I go to my vision as a writer, you know, California Love, you know, but then it was NARS. All his albums I am, you know, Illmatic for the whole album. Also DMX the late great DMX. Definitely. His albums really was, like, motivating, you know, because his content was raw, but it was powerful. You know, so those were, you know, albums, and then just being in West Coast, you know, I excu you know, Snoop Dogg, you know, just, these were like, the chronic album, these are like, classic album that I can just go to, and just get in a different space, but keep myself motivated to move forward. All right,
gotcha, gotcha. So you will get some classics. Get excited this listen to you. So tell me a little bit how it would disconnection that you've made with no talking about hip hop and mental health and black man?
How does that all work together? Yeah, I mean, what what I realized and my personal but also my career and my research around is, you know, I realize that blackmail, they're gonna listen to this music, right? And so if they're gonna listen to this music, how can I use the medium, which they, they, they see themselves at times, right? And then that they listened to on a consistent basis, to inform their mental and emotional, their mental, emotional spaces that they're eating, right. And so what I like to do is take those songs that they enjoy, or bring my own in, to listen to the music, but also look at the lyrics and, and then try to take those lyrics with them, for them to talk about their own lived experience, or what comes up for them when they hear these lyrics or the sounds of the of the or the beats to the to the songs. And that has been a pathway that, you know, young people have responded to. Right? That because they see themselves either through the lyrics, or the lyrics represent something that they went through themselves, right. And it gives them that language that they don't have to search for. Right. And I think that was a critical piece for me when thinking about the mental health space Council learning the language that is used, you know, it's very Eurocentric already on how we approach it. So how can we, how can we make it culturally relevant by using language that's connected to the community to talk about our lived experiences, right. And then as a professional, I can use that with my training to help them further understand what that means and what kind of impact long term impact it can have on them, if they don't work through it. Right? Yeah, gotcha. Yes.
So you're, it's to me, it sounds like you're giving individuals the opportunity to basically tell the story through a story that's already out there. So like, if I'm, if I'm having to start from the beginning and tell you my entire story that could take, you know, two years, whatever the case may be, but if I say, hey, look up this artists and rock this and then helps you understand me, so I liked it. I liked the connection there.
Yeah. So and I think it's a, it's a great way to help people kind of walk that journey, how to begin the process to tell their story, that can be very painful, that was traumatic, and that they internalized in a way where they just say, I've moved past it, right, but it's still sitting there and impacting their lives. And I think hip hop, and the beat, but also the linguistic piece of it provides really, folks a platform to begin to understand themselves through that, or help people understand them better.
Yeah, when I think about hip hop, I just think Historically, it's been very easy for people to dismiss it. Because you know, if you if you just look at the lyrics, or if you just look at the people who are living to live it out, then it's easy to say, okay, that's not important. But if you if you peel back the layers to the themes, they're talking about in the songs, and realize that some of the pain that these people are going through and things are struggles, and this is just a way of him being expressive. It kind of gives you a whole nother way of looking at him, I feel like,
absolutely. And that's interesting, because when I was doing my dissertation, and part of my defense, and my defense, one of my committee members, actually, you know, what would you say to the feminists who have a problem with their misogyny and sexism and all that connected to HIPAA? And I checked, I pushed back and said, Well, what I would encourage them to do is why are why is someone producing this type of music? Right? Like acts the deeper question, why are they talking about these things? That they're sharing to the world? Right? Because maybe it's something they sang, right? Maybe it's their lived experience that they're offering? And if we're not willing to receive it, to understand them more, then what are we really doing? Right. And also, I would challenge you to think of the history the historical piece, as you've mentioned, because the very roots of hip hop was grounded in social justice, resistance, you know, to police brutality, and other things within the community. So it was rooted in it and something to fight back against a society that marginalized right. So if we're going to really be honest, let's move past right, the misogyny and all that connected to it, while we can acknowledge it, but there's a depth to it that we need to touch right to help other people live a healthier life.
Life that there's a you said there's a depth to it that we need to be able to touch and you really can't get into something until you let you experience it and it's like and that's like I said best word that they tell me the story aspect was continue to come back to it because telling your story that's that's like personal that's kind of a sacred thing to be able to do so well, you can listen to the no weather no as Goody MA or whoever it is, you listen to that gets you the mood and, and they're expressing what you're feeling right then that's that's a good day. That's a real good day.
Man. It's a great day to be able to do that to be able to take these stories and then formulate your own. Right. And so that's also what I'm looking to do. Part of my work is having people be able to create their own lyrics. Their own lived experience, right. So what
what does it look like in capsule holder? I would love to do that. Yeah. So
I mean, what that would look like you can either do it in groups or you can do it in individually, I have a colleague that I've been writing with Dr. Even Even me and Libby, and what he's done, which I agree with, as well is you can go through this kind of process, right? Writing your music beat making them and producing, producing an album right or mixtape, right? So you can have a group of 10, eight to 10 students, and they can all write lyrics, they can all together produce the beat, and then they can do their lyrics over their beats and create artifact of their lived experience right now that they can share with the world, right? How powerful is that? Right? How empowering is that? Is now I can formulate my thoughts, my experiences, I can share those experiences over music with my peers, and then collectively, we can share that to the world. Right.
And I think the beautiful part about all that is that you don't necessarily have to agree with my story to acknowledge that it happened. Exactly. Because, because, because my thing is like, I don't think anybody's saying, hey, with these certain songs, you hear these lyrics? 100% agree with everything they say. You don't necessarily have to agree with it. But are you but can you hear what they're trying to tell you that music? Can you hear? And if you can hear the good? If you can't do it, but you haven't dug deep enough so far?
Yeah, absolutely. And I think you can do that individual work as well. Right? You can have I mean, I think about when I ask my clients to journal right. Now, their journal can be full of lyrics, write poems, right? So, so this journal can formulate can be formulated in any type of light lit, you know, any format, right? that best helps the person cultivate their own lived experience through writing, right. And they can do lyrics, right, as part of their journaling. So
your opportunity for them to be able to look at what they're doing, but it's just another medium so so most people may be used to to pen and pad journaling. But this this might be a different way of journaling, journaling your thoughts and feelings.
Absolutely. And then you can take that content, and leave it as lyrics and a journal, or you can produce it into something now, right. And so not only are we helping people tell their story, very authentically to them. But also we're empowering them to, in a way that to embrace their story and their story is meaningful to the world. Right? Well, everyone embrace it, maybe not, but no one embraces everything we do, right? But the thing is, is that we have the competence to be authentic on who we are. And the world. And I believe that authenticity moves us to self actualization. Right? Okay.
We would just kind of thinking as you were talking for a second about the authenticity. I think that's that's kind of been a word been popping around in my head over the past few weeks. But that's a scary thing to be authentic, because people, people say they want authenticity. But sometimes we really don't think to somebody, we want a can authentic authenticity. Don't Give me 100% Give me part of it. But when you you deal with hip hop, they show you everything. And it is it is authentic. And so it may take some people back when I hear certain things, but if you really believe in free speech, if you really believe that, you know, centac Welcome to hip hop. Yes,
absolutely. Absolutely. And I mean, you're right, but I think we live in a society where folks want authenticity, be yourself. But I think folks want it on their terms. But I think that's problematic, right? Because you can tell me to be authentic, but you want me to be authentic, the way in which you want me to be authentic, then I'm not being authentic. And so when I'm encouraging through the lens of hip hop is this is a way through creativity that you can embrace and live in your authenticity. And then and that can send you there so actualize right so you're gonna continue to grow because You're living in your authenticity, which gives you the ability to navigate the spaces that may resist it. Right? Yeah.
So how do you how are you seeing this with the with the black males that you are working with? What have been, I guess, for lack of better terms of success stories you've seen through the use of a hip hop?
Well, I mean, I think for me what I'm saying my journey where black males are, first, it's a connection point, right? But then to it an era era allow to talk about things that they've struggled to talk about, right? I mean, I've, you know, through the years, I've had young people and black males met, say, I've never talked about my family. I've never cried. And being able to find the connection point to talk about live experiences, through the music, gives them the power to say, You know what, no, man, I went through this for and I struggled to navigate it, actually, this is my first time talking about it. And when you have men telling you, this is the first time I've talked about my pain, and they've been holding it for three and four decades. Man, that's tough. Yeah, that's tough man to know, that you carry this for three or four decades. And this is the first time that you're able to release it. For me, I just feel like Man, that's a travesty. Right? And it also speaks to why they may be operating the way they are. Because they haven't had an opportunity to deal with the pain that's been sitting in their soul. Right?
Because there's not a safe place to do, it seems like,
exactly. And so this thing of music, and also, demonstrating to them authenticity, right, has been a part of it as well, right? So saying that you can have this kind of hybridized identity, meaning that you can love hip hop and be a lot of other things. You don't have to be one thing, you don't have to be what the society says you don't have to be just a rapper, basketball player, or in the music industry and some type of way or in the gang life. You can love this music, but be something very different. Right? So So also demonstrating to them whiskey to as the clinician, the authenticity that I was willing to live with as well. Right? In the midst of being a black male as well. All right, and power them. And I always say gave them permission to do the same.
Yeah. And to me, there is a lot of history that is connected to what you're talking about. Because Hip Hop isn't isn't the first place where we get what we get communication about what we're supposed to be doing, you know, when you think of narratives of how we communicated. It was through song, it's all we've always communicated through songs in some way. And all of them weren't just happy. I'm feeling good today songs. So there was some that talked about struggle and pain is just, we're in 2023. Now, we've talked about a little bit different than years ago. So it's to me, I like that, that strain of history that goes through this, that we're at a place in our in town where we actually have the ability to have express yourselves, and not to have any, any type of change, or to express yourself when literally, there are some who came before us who had had literal Chase, who cannot express themselves. And so to me, it's like it's like a big pendulum swing. It's a shift. They are not. To me, it's just beautiful to kind of look at it that way.
No, absolutely. I mean, I agree with you. We have a have certain historical legacy as a people having music and read now, a part of our process of understanding and getting through our condition has been a part of it. Yes, it sucks. When they were walking the streets with MLK or with Malcolm X. They were saying things with their boy, right? There was song there was language, right? That empowered them to believe what they did internally to keep moving forward. Right? And I believe we can do the same thing in our time, right? We can use music, we can use song, we can use rhythms as a way to communicate our lived experiences.
And this, to me is also, like, keep you on somewhat of a good track here. But I've also just noticed with as, as time goes on, there's certain artists that may kind of stand out that speak to certain individuals, and it helps them with the mental health. So you know, you think about NWA when they came out. I mean, I mean, they might not have been moving straight out of Compton. But like, if you just listen to Straight Outta Compton, there's so much hacks in that song. But it was an anthem for people. And they were expressing people's messages. And we know history, they tried to shut them down. But like, you can't shut down people's voices. It doesn't work,
and doesn't work and doesn't work. I mean, and they tried everything they could to shut them down. Right. But they were speaking to a collective, that even if you shut them down, people were talking about that, that were they were raising their voices to the village, the police brutality, right within the LA streets and the Watts riots and the Rodney King riots these days, their music was really speaking to these condition. And I think that if we can engage in hip hop as counselor educated, I think we can learn something about the the culture, but also because now all kids are listening to hip hop. Alright, yeah, so just not black here. Right? So it can give us a window of the pulse of the folks that were educated, to go into the counseling space, and then going out and working in the community, right. That's another tool to understand culture. And we're gonna talk about culturally competency, right? This is another tool that gives us the information to be culturally sound, because we're getting the pulse of the community.
And to me, I think it's, this this kind of is, and we kind of laugh about it. When we think about students and that we work with also the class, maybe in the age range, we're in a time now where many of our clients, their parents grew up, when all this hip hop stuff was like really getting popular. And that was in when we they look at their children, what they're listening to, they can see the connection because that's what they grew up on, you know, so I can make a reference about a Tupac or Biggie and, and a counseling session. And the guy picks up on it yesterday, but they weren't, they weren't brought up on that their parents were and so that's, to me, that's what is this the story keeps going. And so when people were able to hear something like you say, kinetic connects, or the experience or like, that's my story, and ended up and it's, it's timeless. And that's that's to me, that's what is kind of cool by hip hop. So with your work with, with what blackmails Where do you? What's the big picture? What do you see all this going in the future?
All right, big picture is really continuing to create a platform for us. And I say yes, because I'm a black male as well. And a space that we can continue to be able to talk about what our true experiences are authentically, right. So that we can move to a place of healing but also how to navigate, right? Because no one is going to save us. Right? But But us, right? The art is true, you know, they're they can put in policies to help us for people to see us a certain way and see us as valuable to the to the society, right, they can't they can put in enough policies to undo what has been conditioned in this culture, right? And so the goal is is focusing on cell right? How can we create environments for us to win empower each other to create healing for each other, and to know that we're worthy of anything that we put our hearts and minds to? And that man can if I can be a part of that and get the healing my continual healing myself right, to know that my journey is necessary, not just for myself, but the ones that were before or me and afternoon. And then I think we'll be healing collectively, because we're continuing the struggle as black men in our society on a lot of different levels. And Amen. I just heard it this week, you know, with a young brother 20. Year, you're 23 years old, John Moran, he has all this money, millions of dollars. Well, what what's going on? Inside? You know? Yeah.
And I'm glad you brought that up. That's a that's a very timely topic. And even when this gets published, I think there still be a timely topic to talk about. And it is very easy for someone to say, Look at John, he's, he's, he's caught up and all the hip hop and everything. And that's what's messing his life up. That is the that is the easy narrative to paint for him. Because you can, you can bet that because you can, you can package that you can sell it, people will consume it. And Hip Hop's bad let's move on, when obviously, there's much more going on there. And let's talk about what's really going on. It's not just it's not just music, the baby's not making people go out here.
Exactly, exactly. Right. And it's not, it's deeper, but you know, right, on par hip hop is always been the state bill. Right? To really deal with no, so there's deeper issues going on. Right? There's deeper things going on, they have turn it off hip hop. Alright. Yeah. There are some things that he needs to deal with internally, that he's conflicted in some way about who he is as, as a 23 year old kid, and what as a multimillionaire, right? What their franchise on his shoulders? What is he dealing with internally? Right? Yes.
And if you could get there, then you don't have to worry about Instagram. And then you don't have to worry about quote unquote, hip hop, let's get this get to this get to the real issue. And yeah, let's
get to the real issue. So I may have Wait, my, you know, my hope is for black males. Continue to, how can we collectively continue to uplift each other and create a space to be the people that we know they're being all right? We can, like I say that no one is gonna do it for
now, I can say personally, I've seen a lot of great strides. Even over the past decade, especially being a counselor, educator and a mental health therapist, seeing more black men that are in this field now, which is so exciting to me, I can remember going to conferences and like, it's like speckles, for lack of a better term. But this time goes on, it's like you just there's a purposeful gathering. And we have a large number. And it's just been, it's been beautiful to watch that change. But not only just not just seeing bodies, but seeing collaborations and leadership and change going on. And it's like, these people now have the voices. And so because of that they're going out and doing great things. So it's been really nice to watch that.
Now, you're right, you're right, we definitely there's been a lot of momentum, and things are moving, you know, as far as counselors of black male counselors, being in the space, but also using the space to get further to do great work within the community. Right. And continue to bring awareness that we need to continue to do the work, you know, internally. And so that is, I mean, that's something great to see happening. And I think myself, and you're so can continue encouraging, you know, other black males that this is a field that you can get in and give back but also have a debt like, right, as well.
And I think just seeing that representation makes it that no one is just about mental health. That representation helps send a message that there is something I can do something different if I choose to. Or if even if I don't want to do that, at least can go and see somebody that looks like me, and that's isn't actually an option. It's not something where it's like It's a delicacy.
salutely I definitely agree.
So I got I got one last question. I want to chew on with you for a second boy, we wrap up today. So we've been talking about mental health and hip hop and black males and kind of how that all works together. How would you well how would you encourage others Initiative's we're out here who may be saying, You know what, I know little hip hop or, or that's how they help you give us some practical things on how to integrate this into the practice a
little bit better. I think the first thing that we tell them to do is talk what they're planning to write and see what type of music they like, and or do they like hip hop? Or do they like it another genre, right music. And then once you kind of understand that, then you can begin to, you know, pull events and pull them in lyrics, or even listen to those songs, and then be able to come back and say, Hey, you said you'd like this or this and that song. I listened to it. This is what I heard out of it. How does this connect with you? Right? And your story, right. And I think that is a practical way to kind of integrate hip hop or music in general, right, and to the, to the clinical space, by bringing in what they're giving you. And then listening to rap and diving into it. And then bringing it back right to the session, or, for them to give you greater context, or deeper understanding of why this song is relevant to their life story, which I believe is what creates vulnerability, but then gives you a deeper understanding of the person that you're serving across from you.
Yeah, I've often had a basketball attire, specifically, you know about the music, and I work with a lot of teenagers. So you know, hip hop is this, that's what they're listening to. And there's, there's times where, though I've no, I give them homework, but they've given me homework to to like, hey, go out and listen, listen to this, this and this. And I'll go home, and I was so soft. I was like, oh, you know, and sometimes it's tough. I'm listening to him. Like, I can write with that. And other times, I can't, you know, but, but I know it. And when I come back and talk to a client, like I said, I can go directly to though in this liquid, when they talk about this, how's it connect with you, it does give you that space to be able to kind of go into it and now enter into their world, because that's what I listened to, you know, so if I get too caught up in like the language, then to me, I think I missed I missed the whole point by doing.
Exactly, exactly. And I think that is like a measurable way counselors want to integrate this into their practice. I think that's a very practical and not overwhelming way to begin that process. Right? Integrating it, right? And then as you do that, you can begin to expand, because then you can ask deeper questions like, do you have your own music? Like I've had clients? They had an album that they made, and then they shared with me, but hold on, let me share it. No, let me share my album with you. Right. So so then you get back in turn and to Okay, in our work here, I would like you to do let's go on that topic of trauma or suffering. Can you put that in and lyrics? How you experienced trauma and how you were able to work through it? So now it just continues to flow. Right? Yeah, we can expand on it. Yeah.
I like that. So for all you counselors out there listening, what we're saying is no, you can use your DMX. That's all right. Yeah. Did you want to make sure make sure you've done your homework first for you. This is break it out there tends to be helpful. With James I've had a blast coming to you today. This is this has been this has been fun and refreshing. it ever has been just talking to you about hip hop and mental health. And I appreciate you coming on and being with us today. And we'll we'll make sure your information is don't connect us with people connect with you but just thank you again for being with us today.
Appreciate you having me as a pleasure and yeah, we'll do this again.
And injustice no system so my hip hop Can you get it? Can I get through my Jones real quick? We got it. Oh, my job's.
Done thanks again for tuning into the thoughtful counselor today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This podcast is made possible through our partnership with concept, Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing and Professional Studies. Learn more about the thoughtful counselor and some of the other amazing continuing education offerings provided by concept at Palo Alto you.edu forward slash concept. As always, if you are a fan of the show, we would love to hear your feet back and review on Apple podcasts or wherever you subscribe
