Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche - A Rich Exploration of the Nocturnal Meditations
3:44PM Dec 20, 2022
Speakers:
Andrew Holecek
Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche
Keywords:
people
rinpoche
dream
sleep
identity
subtle
important
tradition
practice
yoga
energy
talk
body
book
central
means
image
open
dreams
space
Welcome, everybody to this Edge of Mind podcast where I am incredibly excited about having an opportunity to talk to one of my teachers. Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche about one of my favorite topics. Dream Yoga. And so as usual, I'll do the briefest of introductions and then we're just gonna launch right in and talk about his marvelous second edition of the classic book The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. So Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, a Lama in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet is the founder and director of Ligmincha International an organization dedicated to the study and practice of the teachings of the Bön Tradition. He received training from both Buddhist and Bön teachers attained a degree of Geshe and has taught widely in the United States and Europe since 1991. And Rinpoche is also the author of many, many books, most of which I've actually read. And so again, Rinpoche, it's such an honor and delight to spend some time with you talking about this wonderful time. Um, so let's jump right in. I'm first of all quite interested in why you have elected to focus on Dream Yoga over the years because it is, you know, it's relatively unusual, relatively rare for a Tibetan Lama to emphasize Dream Yoga, and sleep yoga to the extent that you do so I'm very curious what is it that inspired you? To emphasize these nocturnal meditations? Yeah, first,
thank you, Andrew, for hosting this, and I'm very honored. Happy to be here. Wonderful to see you. So to answer your question, I think we probably there's kind of two reasons one from my side, one from the audience side. So my personal side is that I grew up with the tradition that you know, my mother that who will be always guiding us through her dream, living her through her dreams, a lot of fantastic stories that he would have. And my also the teacher that I grew up with, not the author of Bucha yet but who was like a more day to day teacher who basically feed me taught me how to wear the ropes and everything. He was also very much very much always talking about his dreams. So as growing up in the monastery that part of our training was also learn about the Dream Yoga practice like from Maji Parramatta Tantra and yeah, so being part of grew up with that and then, and then more as growing growing up I realized more and more because it's so important thing you know, like one thing is that 1/3 of our life is asleep. And then if we have no clue about how that time has been spent, or even on on wanting to spend in a wrong way, is such a loss of precious time in life. And so there's kind of all this hidden a time in our life for years and years, many time. They're not used well. So so that fit that feeling of okay, that's really important. And then on the other side, coming to the west, you know, we all have coming from a very strong, complex, rigid traditions. Sometime when we try to teach in the same way to everybody and we think that's the only way that the best way if you don't get it and you are dumb, and you're not even proper lesson for dharma or something like they're very arrogant attitude, coming with that and slowly, slowly realize that people everybody has not everybody wanted to achieve a rainbow body or Buddhahood or in many times, you see, just people are just dealing with their sufferings and their whatever means to be able they overcome their suffering a little bit. A little bit more joy, a little bit more inspiration, a little bit more hope, hope in life is good enough. To start with for many people so so and then that you need a common ground common topic to do that. And since they dream who does not dream?
Yeah, no, that's fantastic. And I mean really wouldn't be much of a stretch to argue that the Buddha whose name literally means the awakened one was really the ultimate lucid dreamer, was he not? And entire tradition is held in the embrace of the narrative of waking up. And so along these lines, Rinpoche I'm curious, maybe to elaborate a little further on this many people in the in the western world are so busy, and they they pray they're asleep. It's like, oh, you know, you can bother me during the day but don't bother me at night. Why should a Westerner there actually, anybody? Be interested in Dream Yoga? Why bother?
So first of all, I think, in generally in the world, particularly industrialize culture, that web culture, you know, the online internet and the electricity, the light is always illuminated. And you know, so major cities people having very difficult time to sleep and have very little sleep, not good quality sleep, have a big problem with the sleep deprivation. So I think so first I think the really trying to recognize how important it is to to sleep, for follow well being our well being of our body, our well being our mind, our spiritual development. So just to sleep. Sacred sleep recognizing is important. And then not only sleep but what happens in sleep is a dream. There's a lot of activity happens in our night that sometimes there's there's some part of our brain is more active than even during the waking state. So when they are when these activities are happening, these activity are not having all consequences. Some of them are good consequences. Some of them I mean bad consequences very often negative consequences because of we do not know how to accommodate how to look at it, how to process it, how to transform it, how to utilize it, so So I think in some sense. Sometimes it's kind of this precious hidden moment, that there is in every individual have this opportunity to grow and discovery and and then the sleep in night is the way we slept our stuff our calendar, right so nobody says until every morning moment you wake up you have already have Okay, so in the morning I wake up 730 I already have this plan eight 910 And so go on until bedtime and until when the bedtime comes you have no schedule. So that is the time where you have no schedule. So you can you're free, rich people, poor people, dumb people, smart people are waking people. Everybody goes to sleep and same way. So you have this opportunity to really utilize something for greater healing and discovery.
Yeah. Isn't it true that Rinpoche that when we're working with the nocturnal mind, we're working with unconscious dimensions we're working with like the roots of our experience, right? And so isn't it true to say that when we work with these roots, then the leaves and the branches and everything above are transformed? So because it's more foundational in a certain way, it's more transformative? Is that a fair thing to say?
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
And what let me let me turn down to your marvelous new second edition of the book. I was so delighted to read this book, because I've studied the first edition so many times. And there's so much new material in this book. It's so rich with wonderful insights. And so I'm very curious, but Well, actually, let me say one last thing. One aspect of the book that I greatly appreciated, was how much time and trouble you took to situate Dream Yoga when you talk about the necessity of proper contents context, the way that this is just ideas on karma and all that. And so, along those lines, I'm very interested, since you are one of the rare teachers of this wonderful practice. How has your thinking and teaching evolved over the decades of actually working with this? How has it really changed and evolved?
Yeah, I think it's a kind of complex, I guess, you know, like I saw the dream, fundamental idea of Dream Yoga practice, even the image of dream has some sense of very deeper meaning. That in an let's say, an event, Buddhism does tantric traditions, a much more deeper meaning I think in in my point of view, than typical western approach of the dream, dream practice. And it's not about some neurosis Only it's not about fixing some problem. It's not about only analyzing these dreams. It's not about making some to so much inherent meaning out of dreams. It is more like a dissolving the delusion and illusion and projection and a dream like reality to understand the truth, in general, and particularly truth of oneself, self realization, that is the ultimate purpose of it. And then of course, when you say Self Realisation, it's just for many people. For a psychologist, they means totally different than what aim to mean it. Self Realization means realizing you are no one rather than you're realizing you're someone and whatever that society particular given moment want you to be, be that recognize that's who you are. That's not the self realization, that self has been changing throughout the centuries, that has SELF SELF has been changing since we were born. We'll call it you. I'm I'm a kindergartener. I'm a high schooler. I'm a college I'm professional. I am retire I am miserable going through a midlife crisis. I am dying. I'm getting old. These all i are not who you are. So the deep sense of self reliance to you that's the purpose, I think. So in the West, sometime to come from that particular angle and trying to push to that direction. I think it's a difficult, difficult approach. So all the time. I'm trying to have a little bit. I felt at least in my own inner process, a little bit more Kinder, a little bit more softer, a little more accommodating a little bit more understanding, whatever the the weakness and whatever the needs are there. So trying to bring really more tragic became a little bit more simpler approach of everyday practice rather than pushing the deep meaning of it, you know, and then whenever there's opportunity to open up that meaning you open up that meaning but most people they don't. It's not what they are looking for.
Yeah, yeah, almost tongue in cheek it's almost we can say really that self realization at this level is the realization that there is no self
Yeah. And also even even like a tree teachings, I'll say I sometimes I joke I said, I started with trying to introduce people who they are and telling them who they are not. Yeah, beautiful. Yeah. So basically, most of the time they're very people are suffering so much because of too much identifying with who they are not. And so talking about who they are not, it makes more sense for them because they can experience that oh, I've been saying almost this last couple of years suffering has to do with my being husband or last couple of years. Some of my suffering has to do with my being father or mother, or last 22 years of my suffering has to do with a professional identity. They understand that very well. So if you introduce from that angle, I think it's a better time to instead of just saying you're not that you're not there, you're not there, you know, you're no one and that's depressing for people. Whenever you say you are no one that's very, very hard.
At least at first, it really playfully. One of the things I very much appreciated. In the book, Rinpoche was your your emphasis the time you spent on Dream Yoga as a kind of mental inner yoga to develop a flexibility of identity. I thought that was a key contribution of the book exactly what you're saying here. So maybe talk to us just a little bit more about that type of inner yoga, mental yoga where we're developing an enhanced flexibility of identity that helps us operate very practically in the world.
Yeah. So for example, you know, like, starting with very simple things like we all have, like, issues with the sleep I think most of the people have and and as particularly when you get older you definitely have issues with me and myself, you know, I'm traveling. I just came back from Rancho from Asia and usually I would just you know, do my everything Bay right away. You know, like at this time it's been four or five days kind of difficult to oh, you know, wake up to three in the morning and then it's hard to go back to sleep because the body's body response rate so and then during the daytime trying to take a short nap and then I ended up taking a long nap and then that messes up the night next night. So I think simple things like not jetlag but everybody who suffers with that, you know, wake up in the morning and what we typically do is to turn on the light or get up and turn on the computer phone. And so basically, instead of staying in the dark room, in the darkness, you know, without light instead of going inward. We cannot help many, many people just that they cannot help and then it becomes very bad pattern. Just just I cannot sleep to turn on the light. I cannot sleep turn the phone I cannot sleep to just make a cup of coffee. Get up. So doing that. I mean you it's just a pattern that you know you have to recognize somebody's doing that. Some is doing that who have no clue. The importance of not turning the light not turning the phone not wake getting up. Just lie down in the same position. Take it meditate, take a breathing exercise, trying to find internal comfort zone where you can enter into it. I mean, it is a space that you enter into it or imagination that you enter into it. Very comforting piecing and then once you arrive those in that inner space and in a warm place, you just breathe deep enough for 10 minute you're back to sleep. And but people don't do that people don't even try to do that. So to that too and then once you fall asleep then you have hold in our world you know like before dream state. What we refer as a sleep yoga for many people before you dream that that state is not so important. You know the West particularly is not that strange is not important. Everybody Into a Dream run into sleep yoga. So that because reason why sleep is always more complicated. I don't know what they don't know. What it really means that why it's important. The image is important activities, important responses are important. And what are you trying to do is important what you're doing is important, but that space where everything is happening is not important. It doesn't make any sense but that's how the attitude is so people don't have any clue. So it's good to have those people who have evolved in a dream yoga practice a period of time know about it practicing and experiencing them to open up to the idea of where everything is happening. Where their spaces. So I think good to be more curious about that. And then of course once the dream itself is happening, that basically dream is activity in our in our life, in our field of emotion in our field of energy in our brain. In our cells in our body. So there are activities that are happening and every activity has good reason to happening and many times most activity is they're trying to process you know, because if it's like a same thing, you know, conversation people said in couple relationships, honey, we need to talk whenever somebody says like that doesn't sound very good, right? That is the issue then we need to talk so when you don't talk when you remain in silence. It's a beautiful that means there is no issue no problem when we need to talk there is a issue that we need to talk so when we when I'm dreaming. Dream is trying to process an issue, process a thought or wound or conflict of fear, or some deep underlying a stack of emotions. So whenever that happening, how you handle it. So the dream your knowledge is all about process, recognizing where it's coming from processing what is coming from recognizing that you are not there recognizing you're more than that you are beyond that. Recognize a you have infinite possibility to do whatever you wanted to do if you discover that space if you're not stuck in their identity, so that this is the yoga so in some sense of de realisation of freedom and flexibility when you are not stuck in one identity I mean, you're playing the role of well, you know, so it's not like I it's not saying the identities are bad or you don't need sometime. I guess if if I don't only identify I know I identify more stronger as a father than a husband and definitely identify more more father and the husband and the teacher. So my identity they definitely have issues where I identify as stronger than the others. So wherever I identify stronger, there is more issue with that. So when you are not being only one identity, accommodating all the other identities is where you opening up some more space. Practically you need to open up more space. So So So I think those are kind of important knowledge where really in dream your comes?
Yeah. And isn't it wouldn't it be fair to say Rinpoche that and one way to actually discover selflessness is to understand the multitude, the multitudinous dimension of ourselves. In fact, the more selves we have with this flexibility of identity, then maybe you can actually start to determine that fundamentally underneath it or beneath at all, there's no fundamental self it's like, it's like you can become an actor. actor on the stage of life. Yeah?
So some sense I think, I'm not sure about more self is better, but we're some some time I think it's more like no self. And when when you are more, you when you have your sense of free and no one and then it being no one it gives you this opportunity to be anyone Yes. So anyone why you wanted to be anyone is circumstance circumstances defines different different moment defines, you know, there are some some moment I needed to be more quiet. And I have to know that then that moment when you are if you are opening up you realize this is the moment I need to be more quiet. This is the moment I need to talk this is I needed to be a little bit even, you know, aggressive, you know, another aggressive the right word, but strong. This is the moment I can be totally smiling and be peaceful. So you different personalities are able to manifest only way best way to do that with just being no one or not identify with one very strongly. I mean whole idea of I'm sure you know that that old idea of multiple personality that the identity disorder, all these things happens issues happens before about six years old. And why reason the main reason these multiple personality, the causes of massive personality, it because child childhood abuse, so why because when the child is abused then that particular moment they need to to protect themselves. The only reason they need to protect themselves, though what they're identifying with as a child is not able to protect themselves. Well, they have to be a strong guard, or they have to be this funny or they have to be this like a very mature kind of being so male or female, so they manifest naturally they manifest that personality to protect the other personality. And so sometimes some people have many personality and they are so the harmony that lived together as a family. And what needed to do come out one need to come out because that's what we needed that moment. And when that is not necessary, no one is there. So in the same way, I think the whole the pantheon of Buddhism, in a tantric hole, this deity, each one of them have some reason to come out. The best is none of them. Just Dharmakaya space.
Yeah. And then really, to me, Rinpoche, the way this practice has worked for me is that we're always assuming these identities usually by the dictates of the environment and that to me, suggests that kind of non lucid and voluntary incarnation of identity by engaging in Dream Yoga, we develop a more voluntary flexibility where we're not forced by external circumstances to take on particular environment identities, but we can then like you just said, maybe stay centered and this would be a nice transition to the inner yoga principles to stay centered in the central channel and so that we're not taking involuntary rebirth into these identities. Yes?
Absolutely. Absolutely. So So you, you have more. awareness has more role, and your pain is not pushed. Yeah.
Absolutely. So if you don't mind, I'd like to go a little bit deeper and start to explore some of the more nuanced subtle aspects of this book. One at the outset, I'm curious, some non dual teachers these days and there it seems to be like the non dual tradition, so to speak are popping up everywhere, which is wonderful. But I've heard some non dual teachers say that we returned when we returned to sleep. We're fundamentally returning to the non dual nature. But I remember very clearly, especially it gets in the first first addition for sure. Where you say something so interesting in relationship to this that you say something about we return to sleep to recharge our samsaric batteries. So is this a matter of distinguishing the different dimensions of sleep? In other words, when we fall asleep, as a form of really distraction to recharge our samsaric batteries, that would be in complete contradiction to what some of the non dual teachers are saying that we've returned to sleep to rest in the nature of reality. So is it a matter of understanding the dimensions of the unconscious?
Yeah, so I think it did probably depends on the interpretation. Probably, I don't think there is particular contradiction there. And so for example, in in our every meditation during the daytime, what are we trying to do is trying to bring attention to the moment attention to the place attention in your body, attention to your breath. So you basically means you're bringing attention to the closer and closer and deeper and deeper in order not to continue continuously elaborate the samsaric pain stories in order to not get stuck in these pain, emotions or pain thoughts, pain identities, so dissolving back, back, back back back into that pure awareness during the meditation that's what we're trying to do. So this similar thing happens in the night also. Alter element like earth, water, fire, air space, they dissolves back back, back, lighter, lighter, lighter, lighter, more introverted, more introverted, more subtler, and subtler. To the point, the identity it's weaken its activities a weakened so that somehow it dissolves back to the bad so called Bad based consciousness. So when when, when it's go back to the base consciousness and some for some people who are highly evolved in meditation, it is possible they are in the non dual state. So they are that means they are in the sleep yoga, clear light. So that's true for those non non dual speakers. There are people who might experience that but that's not for everybody. You know, but for most of the people at least, they are they are not fully act active in their pain and pain stories and emotions. They are they are light enough so much. Their identity is lightened up so much in particular may have some moment they even dissolve. That moment, they are charging that that idea of charging the samsaric battery, they're basically you are Yeah, you're giving break to your body you're giving break to your breath, you're giving break to your mind, you're giving break to your emotion. You're giving break to your this natural regenerating healing energies. So you know, like there are so that so that they are blocked, so you're giving break to them means that more they become more active and self healing mode. So So I think it's kind of both thing happens, I guess.
Um hm, that makes total sense. So there are a couple of things, Rinpoche that I wanted to just send your way that I thought I found were particularly unique contributions in this particular edition and one is this wonderful section in your book where you talk about establishing dream guardians, in a kind of protector circle approach. Can you say a little bit more about that, especially for listeners who may not be either burn or Tibetan Buddhists. How how can we culturally translate this notion of, of dream guardians dream protectors? So we create a more sacred environment and protective environment we sleep?
So you know, generally in our tradition the image deities image iconographic images, the male and the wrathful aspect is more like protecting from outer dimension, you know, like, like a guard, you know, and the female and more goddess type is more protection, more intertype like basically like a mother and a father in some sense, like father. I mean, it's not like white and black but generally energetically father protects, you know, there's an outer thread and mother at home, protecting the baby, holding the baby, it's close to the physical. Close that closeness so so there's this sense of Goddess you know, what we call a dream Goddess that very much directly related with Dream Yoga, and who protects and all this duality conceptualization, negative emotions that interferes the dream. And so basically, you're taking your hand from this our very active samsaric waking world to the subtler in a dream world, kind of basically accompanying you with that and then bring you to that another dimension and letting you be aware. So that that is understood. I mean, basically, they understood that there is this goddess and different traditions, sometimes different Goddesses. More, they're more peaceful, they're more motherly, they're more loving, the image wise, they're there. You know, it's like when we grew up your parents are telling a story and maybe your mother is telling more stories. And then this as when you grew up, and you're nobody's telling any stories, you know, you're just left with your thoughts and emotional confusion of the day so that the problem is not somebody who's just opening up this protective space. Imagination that whatever the imagination that you love, taking into their world of imagination and then putting you to sleep then you know, the mom the mother is their families or their their prayer protected your savior, you're allowed to go into this imaginary world. You know that when childhood people growing up you have that but when we're adults we lost lose that. So, I think in somehow maintaining continuously to have that the idea of God is so another word I mean, if you try to say how psychologize what that will be more, more like we all have our rough part. And we have our soft park you know, our rough part is in the self critical self judgmental, criticizing other people what went wrong today, world is not a bad place a world in all these kinds of negative activation before you go to sleep or you have software cybers again, okay, well, it's bad but it's not that bad. You know, situation is not good, but it's I'm hoping it will be better but some sense of the is more opening toward the positivity, hope, inspiration and protection, security, safety, and opening that dimension of yourself opening that aspect of yourself. I think it's important to do before you go to sleep I think fundamental I think for most people learn need to learn that, that I think it's so important before you go because it's the night is messed up.
And so and so again Rinpoche, I think one of your great gifts as I look at your your remarkable career, assuming your identity as a as a resident of the United States, working in the Western cultures, is your extraordinary gifts as a cultural translator. And so maybe talk to us a little bit more specifically about people who who are from the Judeo Christian tradition or Islamic tradition, and how flexible we're talking earlier about flexibility. How flexible is the doctrine or the Tantras when it comes to adapting some of these principles and tenets for non Asian minds. Like for instance, here with the protectors, maybe a little bit more specifically, how can someone invoke a protector mandola principle within their own culture?
Yeah, so I guess that when you are going back to the idea of being no one and if you are no one, you can be anyone back to that idea. That is fundamentally that every religion every different tradition. Like this is like no one, you are no one so that you have opportunity to create anything you need. So throughout the history, or circumstantial, you know, like in different parts of the world. I think maybe this different religion, different philosophy, different principles come out because of that. The truth of anything is possible, right? So, so even even in looking at culture like Buddhism, you know, if you go in one culture visit any channel is a fat border in Pakistan, there's a skinny Buddha, you know, so it's not like a Buddha is fat or skinny, or, you know, where's a lot of clothes on Where's nothing naked or, you know, so it's always culturally translated you can see that so, I mean, I think ultimately trying to see something so much unflexible truth in cultural translation of the manifestation of the truth will it mistaken I think so. So that that there got to be some kind of openness also, you know, when you when you are feeling free when you're feeling completely free if you feel like okay, I you know, of course I have identity but I'm not really feel stuck in one identity. Then when you walk out the day like that, you're just happy to come because sun is shining. You're just happy because the the breathe, the air is fresh. You're just recognizing this dog and this kids are walking through the street. You're just happy to see the guy who serves your coffee or the smell of the cup. I mean, everything makes you happy, because somehow you're not stuck in any identity. So what makes you happy is not important. Everything makes you happy? Because Because you're free inside. So driven really I'm not saying different religion is like a cow coffee or water and kid and dog but in some sense, the manifestation are less important when that space is fully awakened in any culture. So I think every tradition has no question about the connection to that deeper, deeper non dual state, but manifestation of different culture. Tradition came out from that, and then they sometimes they went too much into the manifestation. You know, even even in Tibetan tradition, you know, I think, every tradition I mean, I'm as a Tibetan, and I know more in Tibetan tradition, because sometimes, you know, I feel like instead of emphasizing or my Lama, or you know, my llama, this is my llama or something like that. Just just talk about the Buddha. It's easy to have a fault focus on the Buddha and but this Buddha's teaching instead of focus on your own personalized Lama, but of course I understand we as a human being I know how much I cherish my teacher that I feel strong about the devotion and that all this deep, beautiful relationship I have, but when you have something deep relationship, it's more genuine. It's, you know, it's your and that's different than when you feel like oh, maybe you know, everybody seems like you're having devotion to the teacher. Sure, I must have it. So I'm trying to have it I'm trying to force myself to have it going to that direction of forcing oneself that not you have to kind of recognize where you're crossing that boundary, you know, where you're totally free to feel this just I mean, you can give life to someone. That kind of devotion you feel it's wonderful. I mean, just beautiful. I wish everybody had that experience. But when you don't have you never force yourself to feel anything to anybody. But then, because because of particular when somebody says Oh no, my teacher is more important. My tradition is more important than before everything goes back to the Buddha right? To focus on the Buddha rather than the Euro tradition and my tradition, my llama and your llama in Tibet, and I sometimes feel like that but then the same applies to every tradition, you know. How many branches of Christianity Judaism and no,
We can't we tend to forget the commonality of the roots and the divisive.
Forget the root, and we fight for branch.
Exactly, exactly what this is such an important point. If I want to take it just one little step further Rinpoche because to me, this is this is really a central issue in the West. This notion of the necessity of adaptation. I mean, even if we briefly talk about Darwinian evolution, if something doesn't adapt, it goes extinct. But in this case, when we're bringing these precious wisdom traditions from such different cultures into the West, the challenge to me and this is what I want you to perhaps say something about is the issue of proper adaptation versus inappropriate editing. In other words, how much flexibility is too much flexibility when How do you centrifuge out how you distinguish a distinguished while I want to make this practice my own? I remember when my alarm was always said don't be afraid to make the practice your own. Well, the obvious near enemy there is well ego comes in right and says, Oh, I'm going to co op this. I'm going to edit it. And then you lose the magic because you're actually adapting to such an extent that it turns into a heavy editorial process.
Yeah, so that's a very good question. Very important question. So adaptation is I think, I guess, you need to adapt what is needed to be adapt you also so I don't think there is a limit in again, if you put the limit that means you are putting a limit to yourself. You're forcing yourself so self required, different levels of adaptation, each of these is the need to respect it to allow to adapt those situation. Otherwise how you can say Are these kinds of cells can adapt and these kinds of self cannot adapt? How you can say like a when the Buddha enlisted in Yuma and burn tradition when we have a nine ways or burn nine ways nine, nine we call so but I will say okay, no, only eight nine, forget about get out of here. We only have allowed to adapt an app to an eighth level. Ninth forgot about it. You don't say that? You know if there's a nine there's a nine if there's a there's a then there's a full doctrine in Buddhism. And then the four doctrines or the five part there's a five part 10 Boom is there's a 10 bonus. It's not like, you know, I think putting a limit like that I think is not fair to put a limit who can put the limit you know, I mean, as a teacher evolving in the West I understand that very well because sometime I get a little bit criticized by him saying okay, you're making it too simple. And and then I I don't feel that I'm compromising anything because I know what I'm doing. But in the eyes of others, or sometime I'm compromising because I'm not forcing people to do the model practice or model practice in a traditional way. But if you look historically, when did the model even started? I did not start at that early. Somebody meant it also. But somebody saw then due to bringing in that format at that time in history that was necessary. So you do that um, good foundation practices important, but that particular foundation and that particular structure, that particular force is not important in this this particular moment or first century you know, but the foundation practices that are important that have commonalities there, the structure is not a common the realisation is common. So if you you know, like, I know like sometimes some teachers who talk about impermanence practice which is very important part of permanent practice. If any practice makes you depress, doesn't open the door or makes you feel depressed, hopeless, and not able even to get up and practice is not a good practice, for sure for anybody's eye. So sometimes impermanent practices explained in a way exactly that's what's happening and then it is our own way of presenting it. But if you present impermanent practice in a right way, then it opens up like happens, you know, every time September 11 happens, everybody change one warmer heart more seeing the you know, the war definitely after the war people everywhere in the world, particularly people who go suffered through the war definitely are no longer different rest of their life. They know to live more in the moment, not worse. They know. You never know what happens in life. So anybody who experienced the closeness to impermanence and their heart, they change their life. That the positive impact of impermanence, you don't need to teach that it happens to everybody. But you need to know what's happening. And you need to bring same kind of principle in your life, the other things that the commonality of practice. Destruction is not a common thing and doesn't need to be common.
That's really beautiful. And to me, it really bespeaks to the central importance of upaya skillful means, which to me is not meeting people where you're at the meeting people where they're at absolutely speaking, their language Listening, paying attention opening and then adapting in that capacity.
Culturally, it's interesting, you know, sometimes we we, as we I'm always referring myself and as a culturally grew up in a totally different culture. So sometimes we have a feeling about you know, this is very cultural thing you know, when you're meeting with your student. It's almost like the oils or during the retreat when you're teaching, I wanted to cover cover these four measurable truth and something like that is you got bombarded with information in taxes in historical accounts and the reference to different tax and something like that. And which is wonderful to do that to the right person, as somebody who is a monk who has been educated who had who wanted to learn deeper intellectually, and who has to hold has a whole time in life, not have children or you know, the right people to teach that way. But somebody who's coming first time, who had just went through the divorce, and who is just suffering deep inside who have totally lost not knowing seeing any future life direction. I mean, you're going into the whole philosophy of Buddhism to that person is a wrong way to teach, wrong person to teach. And many times many teachers sometimes we don't recognize that and when we just listen to them, it's so much beneficial just listening people are suffering. So much benefit of that but as a culturally we don't. We are not valued that when we grow up being where we grew up. We did not value that so we don't know how to value that. So when we're listening to somebody's problem, we think we're wasting time. When you're bombarded with information knowledge that you have learned you may end up making good use of time it's wrong.
This is so beautiful, and it's so wonderfully important to share this. So thank you so much for that. I want to return with your permission, Rinpoche to more specifically to the dream arena. And this is a question from my own experience, and I often receive it myself is how can you tell when you're having a dream figure in your dream, let's say, Padmasambhava appears in your dream. How can you determine if the figure is just a projection from your own unconscious mind? Or whether it's somehow in a so called external infusion of Padmasambhava energy into your mind stream? I suppose on one level, maybe it doesn't matter. But maybe on another level, it does matter. I mean, that the permeability of the mind, how is it that someone like Padmasambhava or even you can influence another person's being or is it all coming from within from our own unconscious?
Yeah, so So I guess a one has to go feel back steps that deep inside, we are no one and deep inside. We are that unbounded space. We are. One thing is your no one if we are someone, the basis of whole manifestation, we are that unbounded space we are that Infinite Light energy. We are that manifestation dynamic. Energy we call we call we mother we are child we are dynamic energy, or we are space awareness and compassion whatever you want to call these three levels energy so that we are I think universally everybody doesn't matter. You are Jewish Christianity, with his Buddhists or believer or non believer, I think that three fundamental dimension is the same for everybody so that the commonality so what manifests out as Padmasambhava you know, so or or the cries or Virgin Mary or any oil or the spirit of the nature for the Native Americans for example, like the whatever manifestation comes out, that is, there is a collective unconscious energy there, you know that. So that particular time in history there is maybe within the 100 years period of time or 500 years period, there is a collective consciousness, wish and want and need, that manifestation of that deity for protecting that period of history, dharma whatever it is, so that there is a is not only you and me, we are we are, we are collected, we're talking about department Sumbawa because we bought, we know Padmasambhava but if there was a different time in history, we won't be talking about partner somebody because there was no Padmasambhava for their eyes and their minds right so, so somehow better we're giving birth to Padmasambhava, but the sources of birth is is that unbounded space than infinite energy, that sense of this protecting protection guidance. So the protection and guidance is what we are seeking their particular time. In history. That's why we need the image like the Savior, to protect somebody's comes to save us. So this image of savior is manifestation is possible because infinite possibility, so so I think image wise you know, sometimes you can let's say this way,
Image off, three inner three dimensional space awareness and dynamic energy image of that space, awareness and dynamic energy can be anything, like we talk about the three kya, Dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya. And whenever we said nirmanakaya, every tradition have their own nirmanakaya and burn tradition. We have Thomas European Buddhism, this Shakyamuni you know, so it's mnemonic is a different so you can have but that the basis is the same. So I guess the images are important for person who are seeing that image, whatever that means to you. But more important than that, where the images are coming from if I need a savior, if I'm able to have an image of savior, that's the image is important for me. So, you know, I think that that some sense of deeper meaning manifesting out in my own form of image for me this important but not fight for this image for other image, but fear more commonality of the we have both common space of that infinite possibility.
Beautiful, beautiful. So some of the long along these lines in terms of like, working with the seeming sense of internality and externality you in your book, you talk about this ties in also to this protector principle we talked earlier about. I'm wondering about how, you know, we have the saying in the West ignorance is bliss. Well, is is ignorance really bliss when it comes to believing in these external agencies, these malevolent spirits and the like that again, some people
So let me, let me maybe go back, go back to this story about I just want to give a very mundane example. Okay. That's it. Attraction and love attachment. Think about that. So, every sentient beings attachment is there. Love is there. But so what is the commonality between all sentient being even all maybe all species, even the animals you know how you know this? house mother is very loving to the dog puppies and puppies are very connected to the mother. Love is there. It's universal. But to what you feel as a love, to whom you feel as a love, and what kind of loving relationship you have with that. It's a different so. So if you fall in love with the with your partner, your wife, I fall in love with my partner, my wife, everybody following their partner in their life. You cannot say oh, we have to we have to love the same person. Our love is commonality but you love different person. And because infinite manifestation is so there for you to manifest your love so the same love energy you can provide to many different people in a different kind of love. Or you can have very limited you have only a few people love or maybe some people unfortunately they don't have anybody they feel that love. So the love is commonality where you manifest is not. So if same thing if a Buddhist, a Buddhist, Buddhist manifesting a Buddha and the Christian Christianity manifests in Christ or whatever every religion for manifesting their own collective image of savior. That's okay. That's yours, but not criticize others. It's not it's saying the only person in the world love should be in my wife. That seems reckless or stupid.
This is beautiful Rinpoche because it really is in this age of divisiveness and sectarianism. This softens that tendency that we have even in the wisdom traditions, to feel that the expressions have to be in this particular way and that another so it's a wonderful way to soften that
there's I think there's a people some of them you know, I meet people who feel feel strong about outer manifestation which is fine. But I think if for example, if I feel Auburn tradition is the most important tradition for me, and Thomas Shara is the most important builder for me for my teacher is most important person in my life. I can feel all those things wonderful. But the moment I go telling someone else what they're doing is not right. It's a different.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
You don't have to do that. You don't have to love someone. You don't have to hate someone to love someone. Yeah, yeah. If you need to hate someone to love someone. Be aware more careful.
Yeah, that's, that's really so spot on that. If you don't mind, let me let me return to this issue of you talk quite a bit in your book. And again, it's one of the challenges in discussing a book like yours, there's so rich there's so much there. So I don't mean to be sporadic and jump from topic to topic, but I want to try to reach some of the highlight points for me, and yet go into some depth with several of these. But what I wanted to return to briefly Rinpoche was this, you talk about the malevolent local deities and spirits and that sort of thing which I believe in because I've experienced them I feel them I see them but but if we don't believe in them again, the Westerner thing is ignorance bliss. If I don't believe in these external malevolent agencies, the spirits and whatnot Do they still have power over me is ignorance really bliss here, if I don't believe in them or I mean, how important is it to have an understanding of these agencies? Even though we don't believe in them even though we don't see them? What kind of effects do they have on us if we don't?
I guess they their power over you when you don't believe it is the power that they don't have a power over you. You know what I'm saying? Let me repeat. So if I'm if I believe in a beautiful weather, and if I say oh, California is not a beautiful weather, if I don't believe in beautiful weather, beautiful weather is and the power is that the weather will not have effect on you. The weather will not give me now happiness that everybody else is enjoying with it. That negative power is still a power but you have a negative impact on what is but if you are open to it, if you believe in it, then you have positive power, but the effect is there. So the question is that as effects are not if I don't believe or believe it if I just they're always so I think it goes back to the same question about you know, it particularly in the West I think it's very strange sometimes I feel that people do is not people don't believe people believe in too many things. The people believe in stock market will make money people believe in you know, cryptocurrency will make money or or people believe I believe in this, I believe in everything. This is not that I don't believe people think oh, I'm very smart intellectual or I need a science and logic and reasoning. I don't let this not true. They believe that some must believe. But sometimes some believes that might be more helpful. They're not able to believe that. I mean, magic. Kind of magic is possible. Just believe in it. You know, you open your heart and mind and the moment you open heart in your mind, the chances are happening, wonderful things are so much more. For example, when you wake up in the morning you go you know it's not like a you have a reason to say I'm open to the magic today. I'm open to the joy today. I'm open to meet interesting people I'm open to excitement. I'm open to this. If you're open to go with that. Then you encounter all those things. If you say oh I don't believe in any of those things, you know, what is there in this world? This world is so horrible, terrible. These people are terrible. My neighbor is bad people. My family is messed up. If you go, these are your beliefs, or you don't believe in other things. Yeah, so basically, I think the question about belief is, I mean, even when we're talking about the spirits, yeah, they're there. If you don't believe in it, they don't disappear.
So basically, what you're saying in a very nuanced way is that it is to our advantage to believe in them because they're having it's like it even if you don't believe in a virus, it's still going to have an effect on you. Whether you believe in it or not. Is that too much of an extreme example, I mean, it seems to me, if that's the case, then it really does behoove us to establish a relationship to these spirits and agents.
So I think one important part is that never force yourself to do anything or believe in anything, trying to learn to open make make sense I'm making up some load even you can have a logic to believe in from something I mean, even you look at the science you know, if people say I believe in the science, but for how many centuries you know like people science keep changing. You know, you hear even the dietary you know, people you hear that all the diaries girl you have to drink milk you have to eat meat Nana you have you should donate meat, or you cannot eat only egg Why not a New York and so now it's okay. You're gay is not nothing directly to cholesterol. You know, you make you eat something for 1015 20 years and then tell you is not the right thing to eat. And then you eat the other the right thing and then after 10 years, they tell you no, that's okay. You usually usually just enjoy eating that is how you can believe like they keep changing all the time. That's great. That's always like the middle way. Moderate eat whatever you love to eat. Enjoy whatever you love to eat with moderation and balance. So, even having a little junk food with good friends may be healthy and then having healthy food whether you're depressed wife or friend, you know.
Oh, that's actually quite funny, but very true, isn't it? Yeah, very true. Yeah. So Rinpoche I want to return to something that I picked out a few minutes ago that we wanted to get back to you and talk a little bit change direction into this particular topic because I think it's so big. With Dream Yoga. It's one of the things that distinguishes Dream Yoga from lucid dreaming. Is that really the importance the centrality of Dream Yoga is an inner subtle body yoga, and how it targets in a tantric way, the subtle body as a way to affect subtle mind. So talk to us about several things. One is generally the importance of establishing a relationship to the subtle body again, somewhat akin to what we were just talking about. If we believe in it more or feel it more we can better take use make use of the subtle body which is happening whether we like it or know it or not, but its place in the world of dream. Yoga. And then in particular, you you say some wonderfully provocative things about pardon the pun, but the centrality of the central channel, Ummah and how that works. So two big questions there. One is the overarching contribution of Dream Yoga with subtle body processes. And then the the importance of the central channel.
Yeah, yeah. So I think the idea of the importance of the subtle body is very key. Because, you know, for example, again, always I'm trying to go back to the source the idea of Dharmakaya sambhogakaya, nirmanakaya, three kayas or unbounded space, infinite awareness, dynamic energy. So go back to these three things right. So when you come out of there, there, you know, infinite possibilities. There. But most of our problem with this body is the limitation of this body. Or when people say I'm old. What are you referring to? Or my body is old or getting old? So my body is getting old. That means I'm old. is wrong. How you can say your body is getting old. That and that how you can define that you're old. Or I'm sick worse, because my body is sick. So I am sick. I am old. I am dying. You are not. So everything is limited through this image your body all limitation, no limitation a sense of self is experiencing law Rado limitation with limitation by the body. So subtle bodies role is no you know, I can fly. So let's talk about lucid dreaming that lucid dream lucid dream dreamer has a subtle body. So who can change from one sector to another sex one size to another size one quality to another quality you want speed to another speed, one dimension to another dimension one, one universe to another universe one period of time in history to another period of time, one encounter to another income you can do anything anytime, any you like if you are awakened in that lucid dream. If you awaken in that subtle body, so subtle body's ability to break all the logics and rules of this physical condition conditions. That's the rule. That's what we want. If you don't have a subtle body it then then you're stuck in this physical world. I mean, if you look story about, you know, September 11, there was a you know after September 11, there was investigation goes on for years and the final conclusion for 1000s of pages was about September 11. And the Americans lack imagination. That was a one line of conclusion, American luck, imagination. So what does that mean? Imagination means subtle body. In some sense, you have to not not stuck in your routine way of thinking your physical way of thinking, your conditional way of thinking you have the thing beyond the limitations that you are with the thing that these people are called more advanced, out of box. So in the Dharma world in a tantric world and a magic world is the same thing. Who is able to imagine farther away than then stuck in this limitation of collective conditions or individual conditions or conditions of the body, physical dimension, so the subtle body breaks the rules. So but you know, at practice of imagination, you can you can the same thing. You get up in the morning, I can think about this. Today will be the my best day. Just open up with that energy. today. I'm going to meet incredible people. I'm going to talk with them. I'm going to engage with them. I'm gonna find out you open to their world, the world will be dead they will be completely different day of the whole entire life. Because you are going with a different body. You're living you're giving a break to your pain body, so your body will encounter him amazing and other bodies, your brain giving a break to your pain speech. You're going to have a great conversation with so many new people. You're going to have a great joyful conversation with conflicting disagreements. Because you're taking a break from pain speech. The subtle voice comes out. Subtle heart comes out subtle. Energy comes out subtle imagination comes out of some other subtle sense of self comes out a image of self. I am like, I'm Sky. I'm not this body. I am the sun. I am infinite light. And this dynamic energy which can move to anything and anybody you know. So those are subtle image.
I mean, what a what a wonderful way also to dovetail this back into the previous conversation about flexibility of identity even though this is like a horizontal flexibility. Now we're talking about a vertical flexibility we have
I always goes back and that's the thing you know, I feel no matter what I talk about, I always go back so that's why I know I'm on track. But I'm not going back where the commonalities I'm only on I'm only get stuck in where the differences are, then I feel there's something wrong with me.
And I think isn't it Rinpoche another way to talk about archetypally the difference between lucidity and non lucidity at a deeper level. When you're when you're stuck on the superficial identity level and reifying those dates that's archetypal non lucidity. Yeah, you have this deeper recognition with lucidity being code word for awareness. This is archetypal lucidity principle.
Yes, absolutely. I mean even just look at a normal in everyday life where when there's a good friendship happens when good friendship happens when I totally respect your need, our differences and even your weakness, which is similar to my weakness, but you're unique. You have unique weakness. I haven't been different kinds of weakness. We have weakness weakness or not avoided witness a show we feel vulnerable safe to have exposed to each other and have respect to that support to that. And then we become girlfriend. We become more authentic, more become more real. So in a life in a journey and a spiritual, same thing. We have to respect all the pains, all the conditions and then we can open up door door door of the joy.
So let's get it this is wonderful introduction in a general way to the power of the subtle body. If you don't mind, Rinpoche, let's get a little bit more specific now because again, I was really impressed with the emphasis you placed on this in your book. And again, talk to us a little bit about the importance of the Ummah, the central channel during the day as a way to become centered how it works with dreams what actually is the central channel why is it so important? Because I think this is a big
Let's head this way again. I'm always going back. You always talking about let's be specific. I'm going back to the way there's less. So, so, so idea will be going back, you know the space and awareness and the dynamic energy. So these three things are common for all of us a universal right so central role of the central channel is representing that subtlety. So because central channel is something beyond physicality, you know, is like a heart we have a very common heart. We had the heart beeps and the heart. How many times beat of heart what kind of beat it should be. Audrey should be open what level it should be open our when is the problem we have common but the central channel might not be a common. So central channel is somehow it's part of your body is related to your body in a very subtle way. So you're going from your your limbs, your arms, to your organs, to your intestines, to your cells, to your channels to yours. three channels to five chakras to your central channel is going so you're going deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper in some place. That basically means from below the navel until to the crown, the central part of this body that's where the central channel is. So in in a way when you bring attention to there so in attentive teaching, it says the ultimate goal of Tantra is to bring the settlers mind and the prana in the central channel, unifying the settlers. Quite awareness and the subtlest wind in the central channel is the purpose of the Tantra. So internal awakening happens only when these two meet in the central channel. Not in any chakras, not in say channels only in the central channel. So that's why I think the central channel is very important to you know, I mean, theoretically speaking, that's why important but practically speaking, what does that mean to ordinary people? It means that, you know, your sense of self, which is very much conditioned by circumstances, people for example, people will say, I am a lawyer. I would I would, you know, I would I would like better to say I'm old to identify with my body than the my profession. But still both are not good. But I prefer to say I'm old because my body is getting old. I'm identify more with my body body, not what what I do. So most of the time people they identify more, but they do, particularly in the West. Not only that the worst thing that people say people identify with what they have or what they don't have. So that is the fundamental issue where were culturally what is main identity where you emphasize and the West very much me the word like how much this person is worth. I've never ever heard that. Entire my life worthiness of individual defining dollar amount. I have never ever heard that definition growing up until I you know, I came to the west. Now I say somebody's worth. Usually we will talk about the worthiness or you are you have a precious human body. You have precious you know, like Buddha hood, Buddha nature in you. That's what we are taught to say you're worthy because Buddha nature is within you. You're worthy. You have this precious human body. You're worthy because of your rich inherit tradition. You're worthy because of your surrounding you or your family. But not the dollars you know, so cool goes back to always the same place you know, so central channel is nobody says I am a central channel. People say I love you from my heart. I joke with my students. I said stop saying that. If you really love someone you say love from the central channel. Or say I'm giving you a spacious luminous warm hug. Space I'm giving from that unbounded space, infinite awareness. That luminous, warm, calming energy, dynamic energy coming out of that. That is a hug that I'm giving. I'm giving spacious luminous warm hug. I'm love you from central channel. And that will be better a way of expressing it more more subtler way. of expressing it.
Less appropriated and less personalized. And so this is so rich Rinpoche The other really beautiful part in your book connected to this was how you talked elegantly about the shaping of dreams, depending on how the product is moved to the different parts of the subtle body which interestingly in as you may be know in the western world some very influential scientists talk about you know your your body is your unconscious mind. And I'm most of them don't acknowledge the subtle body who sees me but it seems to me, we could take the same principle and apply it to say your subtle body is your even deeper, subconscious mind. So talk to us a little bit about the role of the subtle body and the way the winds move into the different energetic centers to actually shape the dreams that we have and then why is that important?
Well, that is important. First of all, if you look every single night when we go to sleep, even though you are not participating the process you are not saying okay, now is the evening I'm going to go to bed I'm honored to be more awareness in my dream and my dreams will be affected with my daily activity, my thoughts, my emotion. So what kind of activity I had today? What kind of emotions I have today? Did I able to process them? Well, are they still hanging there? Do bothering me bothering my evening. You know, just bringing a lot of awareness to that because then you know, you have chance to change it. Chance to process it. You have chance not to carry all the stories in your sleep. You know, it's true every night that that's true. You know I know clearly if I if I have a thought that bothers me that and I know it's gonna affect my sleep at night. But if I know how to process it, best way to do the dissolve that self who is having it and not have thought of another best another way to do it will be changed myself trying to see that in more positive way that whatever the event is and feel free and feel good about it and then go to sleep. So it's going to impact so, so the energy like as talking about the body, body body is a full of memory every part of the cell every single cell it carries on and memory carries on its story and is its own story is always transmitting to the next cells right? So that is they say like 330 billion cells are replaced every single day. 333 million, more than 3 million cells are replaced every second. So every seconds, our cells, each cell are carrying some memory. So how do you how you can change the memory of those cells? Well, if if you don't do anything if you do what you normally do, which which has created those cells and those memory and that is going to change because you're going to empower more to say okay, you're gonna have a nightmare you are then you'll have frequent nightmare you're gonna have a nightmare have more nightmare tonight. Horrible you go to bed. Just you know if you That's the energy of the body energy of the message you give to those cells, you're going to have same, same kind of and worse. But if you bring if you bring awareness if you bring the light if you bring the dynamic energy in it through the breath into the replacement of the cells the cells going to be different. It's a new cell is replaced, new memories replaced, New Energy is replaced. Your dream going to be different. So so in a Dream Yoga, we talk about these major energy centers like heart for example. There might it might be possible that every night when you go to sleep, your attention you got putting your attention to your heart. Maybe Maybe you are very lonely. That's why maybe you have issue of physical heart conditions. Maybe you're emotionally very wounded in your love stories. Your story is about the heart and every night you do go with your attention to your heart, physical this area, this energy area, but without knowing it. So without knowing when you go there, what does that mean? That means you're going with the wrong story. You're going in the wrong space, you're going to the wrong energy. We are going with the wrong story. You cannot expect better good good sleep. You cannot expect a lucid dream you cannot expect clear dream. You cannot expect a healing dream. You're not going to happen. But when you change bring your attention to the heart. Why like doing some practice like doing practice breathing from the heart, bringing the light of awareness to the heart. Now the you're changing the space you're changing the dynamic energy, you're changing the story. Now you can expect better sleep, you can expand good better dream you will expect better day next day. So that that's why I think this attention to different locations in your body different energy feel in your body before you go to sleep is fundamental fundamental.
So what what other exercises can one do in addition to what you just said, Rinpoche when we go to sleep, to invite this interiority, what other practices I guess the one that stands out for me in your book that I really connected to was during the course of the day to literally remember remind yourself to to come back stay say stay centered in this type of channel. So what what other practices can we do during the day with the subtle body to help us grease the skids for lucidity at night?
So of course then, in the book, I talk about the four foundation practice or four principle practice drawing attention to your throat in a crown heart, the secret chakra. So these are very specific physical locations where you bring your awareness and the warmth before you go to sleep. So you are consciously going into these spaces and trying to open up these spaces. So that opening up for the different dimension of dream and sleep. So in the night we do that during the daytime every time as you said we're trying to remember that you know, any experience what happens during the daytime, some people no matter what happens everything what happens is goes wrong for some people. And some people something some bad experience happens. They look at okay, you know this is difficult but I know I can manage it. This is difficult. I'm happy. Face this because this is the truth. I have to face eventually. So I'm I'm happy I'm facing it. Oh, this is the maybe this is the this is the situation I'm facing it. I think I'm taking too much personal I don't care about it. You know, you don't I don't care about the sense of some time you also need some kind of or I don't care about it, you know, like caring too much about everybody's opinion. Every situation is not good. So you need some kind of this more, a little bit more kind of wild aspect of yourself. Not really caring about it, or sometimes more gentle and subtle awareness. You are carrying about it and you have means to carry about it. So somehow you're processing it not not not storing negative stories. Every story is able to handle reasonably well throughout the day. That in the night when you look at all the stories there is not not so bad stories. So you can say I'm I'm happy to go to sleep tonight. I have a lot of stories, but none of them are bad and some of them even was difficult, but they were very important to hear a healing so you go with that. So that's important preparation.
Yeah, what came to mind somewhat playfully was when you enter the central channel, it's a bit like a filtering system. Where no thinking especially no stinking thinking aloud, right, you got to enter a more open non conceptual freer space
Yes, yes more being there. You know, so I mean, the best best thing is to just be and connect with these pure energy centers. And then and when you are not able to do that because that means your rational mind your thinking logic, my emotional mind is kind of interfering again and again. Then you have to use the similar similar kind of emotion to process emotions. Similar kind of thought to process the similar kind of thought you have to work toward with thought emotion with emotion, pain with pain, and, you know, lesson.
And can you, as we start to close up here, there's just a few things Rinpoche, Is it feasible to if one becomes familiar with the energetic relationship between the energy centers and our dreams? Is it actually feasible to use this information to incubate or to actually seed particular dreams? Let's say you're aspiring to gain some insight, you make aspirations to achieve some some message or something in your dream. Can you can you augment that by bringing your awareness to energy? I mean, you mentioned the different chakra centers, but are there other centers that are worth exploring to incubate or seed dreams?
Yeah, so definitely, you know, you can go do a specific way like entering into your crown. And yeah, entering into your thought throat, trying to discover the dimension of peace trying to enter you in a crown disk, trying to discover the your dimension of creativity, expansion of sense of self or entering your heart trying to explain or expand your sense of love, warmth and joy. And you know, so different locations you can change the different qualities that one thing energetically or the other hand the simply before you go to sleep you pray you say i i know the dream is infinite possibility. Is there any dream if I'm trying to be, I will invoke all the spirit or the enlightened beings or the guardians and protectors helped me to go beyond time in space encounter. My master who have lived 500 years ago and may I bring this question to her to him and get answer so you are you go with this in prayers in tension and are very often do you often encounter beings you got to have frequent encounters, you have conversation. It's very normal. Fantastic. So if you if you're, if you're meeting if you're having a lot of nightmares, if you're meeting your demons very frequently, you're opening up you can you can encounter your divine and have also frequent conversation good conversations. Now why not believing in one believed the other one also?
Exactly. That's perfect. So as we started close up, excuse me Rinpoche what say a couple words, like heart essence. What does it mean to accomplish Dream Yoga?
Ultimately accomplishing Dream Yoga means seeing everything like a dream and being free from all stories. And achieving illumination. That's what means and ultimately, that's what it means. And therefore, for ordinary purpose. Second purposes, if everything is like a dream, there is less suffering. There is more flexibility there is more possibility. So if you feel less suffering, more possibility in your life through the DVR practice that the secondary support, nothing's working. So don't be too serious or no short in short answer. Just don't be too serious about anything, including yourself and what do you what? Don't be serious about yourself? Don't Don't be too serious about what you're thinking. Don't be too serious about what you're feeling. Don't be serious about your job. Don't be serious about anything, but be aware of everything.
But again, the near enemy here right I think this needs to be thrown into the mix because if we go too far in that direction, then we get to the dismissive nature all it's all just a dream on one level, that's a very healthy thing to say. But it's not so healthy and this is a nice way to close up. It's not so healthy to say, oh, global warming is just a dream. Political, divisiveness, racial injustice, just a dream. So again, the pendulum can swing perhaps too much in that direction where you get the couldn't care less attitude towards things but that we do need to take seriously otherwise were dismissive.
Yeah, so when you do need to take things very seriously, when something is serious for you. And how you define the seriousness is only you can define the seriousness you and like you like people like you. So that means every time every situation like you know for Tibetan when the you lose the country is a serious for us but not for the Chinese. So that means they may they're happy to have an extra land. But for us is a serious so if you're serious for you, it's serious for you, you take it seriously but don't. So the idea of taking seriously it's serious for me that everybody should take serious. I don't know if it's the right statement. Also. It's serious for me, it's serious for us, let's take it serious. It's a good and it seems to take it serious to everybody else. Like you're saying like a fire fire saying space worried about the fire because it can burn the tree. But why space should worry about the fire because it cannot burn the space. Beautiful. So so so you know I think when you are feeling free, you do you're more able to accommodate others pain, you're more you're able to be more serious about when others feel serious. So I think that's the beauty about that. So you are you will you will more likely you will not ignore other people you will not ignore others feeling you will not ignore other people's one citizen or definitely you will help them to heal them. So that's important part, but doesn't mean it's totally serious for you.
Exactly, exactly.
But as you know it's serious enough to know that it is serious for you. It makes me serious because the only way I can feel more serious about your seriousness. I have more open to you. I'm gonna have more compassion to you, because I'm not identifying with my seriousness. That's why I'm open to your seriousness. As beautiful as if I'm so serious about my seriousness, why should you care about us seriousness, I know you're very serious about that thing, but I don't care about it. I am not serious about it at all. So more likely I'll be open to your seriousness. If I'm not too serious about my seriousness.
Beautiful. It's really like it all ties to so much of what we've talked about it creates a much larger mandala holding environment container actually everything just speak it's still there.
You always have to remember that that's the place we always have to go back no matter how serious we are not seriously we have we have if we remember that will will collectively we will handle any crisis much better.
I thought recently, Rinpoche was a big student of word origins and the root of the word dharma you know Sanskrit dharma means one means to hold. And I thought about it in this regard that the Dharma creates these holding environments, where we can contain relate to whatever experience especially so called negative ones in a completely different way. It's that you're changing the way you embrace reality.
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So Rinpoche thank you so much any any topic that we missed anything else that you want?
I think, I think you have cover beautifully, all the essential points because of your long term study, practicing mastering in it, and there's no better interview than this. can happen. And so I think wonderful
Rinpoche means the world to me and one thing I want to remind our listeners is English is Rinpoche's second language. This is not his native language, but he conveys in such a mastery and subtlety and nuance. We take it for granted. So Rinpoche for your incredible contributions as an amazing teacher in the Western world. Really, you've influenced me and taught me more than any other person in the world of Dream Yoga. And for the contributions in this amazing book. I can't recommend it too highly for our listeners. I think it's just the best like I mentioned in my endorsement if you're going to read one book on the topic, this is it. So Rinpoche, big thanks, big bow of gratitude. We're so grateful for your time.
