it's so anyways, the author, you know, when she interviewed me about empathy, I said, Look, I explained to her how the empathy circle works like a basic stroke. So an empathy circle is maybe four people in a group, so if we had one more person, we could do an empathy circle. And we use active listening to talk to each other. So I would be the speaker, Jody, you're the listener. I would share a little bit you know about our topic, and then you would reflect back your understanding of what I said. You're using active listening, you know, based on the work of Carl Rogers. And we have timed time limits. So there's maybe a five minute or so time limit for me. So I speak a little bit. I pause. You reflect back. But then we, we have an overall time limit. After five minutes, my turn is up, and you Jody, become the speaker, and then you would speak to Sam, and Sam would reflect back his understanding of what you're saying so and then we'd have four people, and we, you know, have the conversation goes on like that for the time allotted. You know, sometimes you go for as long as, you know, two hours or even more. And this is, you know, the work of Carl Rogers was, I think, quite seminal in terms of empathy within the therapeutic context, because he would listen to his clients, you know, for like, an hour, using active listening. So we've done is put it into a group context, and within that group context, so using that is a framework we're looking at, what is empathy? Let's define empathy within the context of the empathy circle. So all the stuff you're saying, Sam would be like, put it in, show us in the empathy circle where that is being manifest. So instead of it being sort of abstract, you know, out there we. You know, we and I love what you're saying, by the way, is, but instead of being abstract that we bring it down to, where do you see the seeing each other as objects and is not as it as humans? Where do you see that actually happening? Or can we even role play it happening within the context of the empathy circle? So we have a context to talk about. You know, what are we talking about? Instead of getting so abstract, because it gets so abstract, usually with the definition. So within that context, you know, the core of what I'm seeing is empathy, is sensing into the experience of self and others. It's a form of sensing into so it's kind of a quality. It's a way of being like you're talking about. So I see it, see that very similarly. So if I if I'm speaking and Jody, you're listening to me and reflecting back. You're really focused on what I'm saying, and you're sensing into what I'm saying, and you're empathizing with me, right? You're, you're and the reflection sort of deepens that empathy. It really means you have to be present. You have to really focus on what I'm saying, and you have to hear me to my satisfaction. I have to have a sense that you really got me in terms of what I'm saying. So that's like one. This is what I'm going to call the holistic model of empathy and a way of being. I love that. I use that term way of beings. I see empathy as a way of being, and so it's a holistic way of being, you know, sort of model of empathy. So you're listening to me, you're empathizing with me. By you listening to me, I'm actually sensing into my own experience by having your presence and attention, I have sense into my own felt experience, you know, to share. And besides, sort of unobstructed, and so I'm empathizing with myself, sort of a self empathy. So that's so there's a other oriented empathy, which you'd be empathizing with me, and as a silent listener, Sam would be empathizing, and if he's paying attention, he'd be empathizing with me as well, but you'd be kind of more directly, intensely deep, more deeply empathizing with me, because you're having to be really present to reflect back, and then I'm having the self empathy, sensing into myself. So somebody empathizing with you helps you actually empathize with yourself. And you know, Carl Rogers talked about that as well in his work in therapy. So that's and so the the holistic model has different components that make up up the model, and the the other part would be, usually empathy is defined as an individualistic term, like, oh, you as an individual are empathizing with someone in the world, right? But it leaves out the relational part of empathy, and a wholeness of empathy, I think, is the the that we're all in the empathy circle, empathizing with each other, and that creates a whole space of mutual empathy and a whole empathic way of being for the group. So that's the other so the mutuality, the wholeness of empathy, is when we're all, if we're four people, we're empathizing with each other. So that's another part. And then what's often called, you know, cognitive empathy. They say, Oh, imagine being, you know, someone else. And I think a better term for that would be imaginative empathy. I mean, my sense is the cognitive empathy was created by a bunch of cognitive psychologists who want to make they they like it because that's their that's their bread and butter. You know, they're cognitive scientists, so let's call it cognitive empathy. But I think a sexier, actually more accurate term is imaginative empathy, in the sense that we can imagine ourselves in the role of of anything, or anybody or anything. So for example, Meryl Streep is an actor, right? She, you know, she's imagining herself in the role of Julia Child, and she's acting from that role. She's not Julia Child, but she's imagining herself and get, really gets into the role or Margaret Thatcher. So, you know, we could have, you know, four versions of of Meryl Streep being different actors and role playing imaginative empathy right here in the in the circle. And they could be like talking to each other, or I can imagine myself being you Jody and Jody. You can imagine yourself being Sam and we can actually role play each other. Or we could imagine ourselves being fruit. Right? I could be a banana. Sam could be a pear. Jodi could be, you know, pineapple. And then we could have a role playing. We can imagine ourselves, so we have that capacity for imagination. And so that's another so I would call that imagine imaginative empathy. So that's sort of the framework. And then when I mentioned Elizabeth, who wrote that article, I said, Whenever the academics or others tell you you know their definition, have them put it into the context of the empathy circle, right, so that you can actually role play it and see it in a more concrete, you know, sort of a framework. So, and then all your questions too, we could answer within the context of actually role playing it, you know, or sensing it in an empathy