This summer in Kansas has seen continuing debate and discussion over the rights of transgender students. Not coincidentally, of course, it's also campaign season. My name is Clay wire stone. I'm the opinion editor here at the Kansas reflector, and this is the Kansas reflector podcast. Joining me today to discuss all the latest our new reflector reporter Rachel maidpro. Hi, Rachel.
Hello, Clay Great to be here.
Joined by DC heagerty, who's the LGBTQ plus legal fellow at the ACLU of Kansas. Hi, DC.
Hi, Clay Great to be here as well. And
rounding out our group Brendan riffle who is a reflector columnist and KU grad students. Hi, Brennan. Hi. So let's first of all, have Rachel and DC talk a little bit about some recent events in the Gardner Edgerton school district. So Rachel sketched the scene for us what what was going on out there?
So we've been seeing some pretty interesting things on this front, basically, for the past few months. I think studying since July, really, we've seen a lot of discussion about a potential proposed transgender student policy. From what we've heard many people, many activists have said this could be really damaging towards students, and legal fellow DC here can take it away with what sort of legal rights they'd be violating if this policy went through.
Yeah, so I will just note that, Rachel, as Rachel said, you know, this has been an ongoing discussion in the school district since July. And a school board member introduced a very egregious harmful and discriminatory policy at the July board meeting, but that policy has since been revised. And that revised policy was recently debated Monday night of this week, and so that policy, while they removed a good amount of the most egregious aspects of the initial July policy, it still included a lot of really concerning language around restroom and facility use around students right to use their name and pronouns and have, you know, confidentiality around their trans identity at school. And so the ACLU of Kansas was concerned that they were going to be adopting a discriminatory policy, but also a policy that is harmful, and risk the safety of the trans students in the district.
And DC, just to just to be clear, the original version of this policy was, I mean, it included some pretty remarkably problematic things. Oh,
yes. So the original version of this policy, just, you know, some of the some of the worst provisions that, you know, we were really concerned about, it seemed to imply that students in the school district, even if they got their gender marker changed, you know, legally on their birth certificate, which is like something the state allows in Kansas, for all trans folks to access, the school districts still wouldn't recognize even an amended birth certificate. So that was a big a big problem. And there were other issues in that policy that were going to be not only title, nine violations of students rights, but also Title Seven violations of employees rights in the district, because the original policy didn't allow even like Trent, if there was a trans social worker and the district or trans teacher, it included them in the policy. And so that teacher wouldn't have been able to use their own name or pronouns at school, if they didn't use the this the name that they were given at birth or the pronouns, they were related to their sex assigned at birth. So there were some big problems with that initial policy that were revised out. But the policy as is right now, still still has some big issues.
And and Rachel, just to bring us up to date here to like, the school district did not actually formally adopt any policy at its most recent meeting, correct? No, I've
been speaking to school officials about this. And it's honestly very unclear if or if they're ever going to do this kind of thing. I've been asking for, like a timeframe to see if they're gonna do the vote ever. Again, we have no timeframe for any of this. We're not sure if we will ever have a vote on this issue, basically.
And Rachel, just because you were also kind of watching these meetings, writing about them, what was what would you say the debate was like, the tone was like, what, what, what was the vibe there?
Well, it's pretty interesting because I think we saw from students like the ones that have spoken at that meeting, they were pretty firmly against it from what I could tell I think we're seeing like a lot of parents reacting to this. A couple of other issues were also brought up along those lines. But, again, I would say that at the school itself, from what I've been seeing the students are pretty against this transgender policy. But DC was at the actual event. Do you have anything to add about that?
Yeah, so I was at the school board meeting that evening, because we provided testimony, speaking out against the policy from the ACLU of Kansas. And I did just take kind of my own statistics of who was there speaking for and against the policy, and there was more more people there from the community and members of the school district that were speaking out, in opposition to the policy, you know, that were there, saying that the at least the two students, I took note of the only two students that I saw speak at that meeting, were, you know, very against the policy, and they essentially, were kind of saying, you know, to the school board, you haven't been in the schools, you know, for at least 20 years, and you don't understand what it's like for us. And really what you're doing is making it harder for us to be in school, harder for us to support our LGBTQ friends. And so it kind of got, you know, from how I took away from that meeting was same same thing that you said, Rachel, it seemed like maybe there was some fear mongering going on around, you know, a couple of loud voices, or a couple parents in the community. But it didn't seem like the students and the teachers and the staff and the district. Were trying to be discriminatory, it seemed like they wanted to, you know, adopt an inclusive policy and get on with the school year, it sounds like the district had some other issues that they wanted to, to deal with that were actually, you know, actual problems in the district. And that sort of this made up to target a few kids. Yes, exactly targeting the handful of kids that in the district that this policy is going
to impact. And one more thing about that, do you remember that one letter from a teacher who wanted to remain unknown? It was that I thought was very interesting. Basically, the letter was from a teacher, who was saying that, um, I believe it was a sheet, I'm not entirely sure. She was saying that basically, she had one case in which a student requested to use a new pronouns and preferred name, and she was going to reach out to the parents about it. But she was blocked by school admin from doing that. She was saying that that's an issue and that parents should have the right to know what the child's preferred pronouns and name is, what do you think of that? Because I think that's been a fairly big roadblock, and then the policy as well.
Yeah. So as far as the specific provisions of the revised policy that talk about student's ability to use the name and pronouns that they choose the new policy, you know, I will note that it was much improved from the initial policy, and that it did at least allow for trans students if they have affirming parents or guardians to then get permission to use the name and pronouns at school where the initial policy banned that from ever being an option. But I do want to note that the way the revised policy is written is still a big problem, because the default language of that policy is outing trans kids to their parents or guardians. It has a caveat that on a case by case basis, the school district attorney may find that the school district should not notify the parents. But, you know, in my view, that isn't isn't the the safest way to have a policy written because there's there's no proper guidelines embedded for what to do if a student comes out at school because they feel safe, maybe with a counselor or social worker, but they don't feel safe at their home environment, selling their family that information. And that's the big concern we have because we know like, that can lead to you know, queer and trans kids getting abused at home or, or increased rates of homelessness. We know like, I think it's about 40% of homeless youth are LGBTQ plus. And it's things like this that leads those statistics, you know,
and also do you set that parameter for an attorney to make that is that a kid being willing to say my parents aren't supportive? Because I'll be honest, there's a lot of kids that won't even say that because if they are school districts that goes home those back to the parents, as your kids said, they were afraid to talk to us. Like they put them in more trouble. So a lot of kids don't actually come out and say, Hey, arms not supportive.
Yeah, Brennan, I was I was going to ask you, because you've written for the reflector now a couple of times, and we've written about you a couple of times, just about the I mean, just kind of the broader perspective on this in terms of, you know, what, kids in an environment like this are actually going through, like what's at stake for them?
I mean, it's everything. And I think they're We ran a piece earlier this week that was very powerful. The teacher stood up and said this, this could be an end. And when we have policies like this, this could this is this could and this will lead to more one mental health issues, but also suicides for trans kids.
to kind of piggyback off of that, I was speaking with one trans former student that attended school there. And they were saying that their time at the school was, quite frankly, a little scary for them, you know, very homophobic, the experience and bullying. Do you think do you think this would make this worth obviously, like, would this policy affected
by far Yes, and that doesn't doesn't? That's not just that's not just for Carter Edgerton, that's any school district that this happens into.
And I do just kind of want to add, while we're talking about the harms of adopting these policies that also, you know, there's harms that are happening right now, even though Gardner epogen hasn't officially adopted maybe a discriminatory policy, the research bears out that even when communities discuss anti trans policies, when they're introduced, when they're debated, and talked about on the community, whether that's at a school board, whether that's at the legislature level, you know, these policies already are impacting the mental health of trans and queer kids in the community, even when they aren't adopted. So I think it's really important, you know, the harms are happening now. And that we understand that and that districts across the state understand that.
Well, I mean, I'll just add some incredibly what what seems like ancient history now, but even even from my my own life, as a as a gay married man, which is, you know, when gay marriage became a campaign issue in 2004, like this was something that was used as a cornerstone of George W. Bush's reelection campaign. And, you know, my, my now husband and myself, you know, I don't think we thought about it at the time as being something that was actively harmful to us. And yet, it is very, it's profoundly uncomfortable. Even if you, you know, as we were, we had jobs, we were independent, all of those things, to actually have kind of your position in society as a matter of public debate. It's, it's very difficult and uncomfortable. Yeah. And that's a best case scenario, really.
And so I think that might even be the point of that conversation. Not necessarily the outcome of whatever the conversation is, but to send that message, because the conversation even exists.
Now, DC, when we were talking a little bit earlier here, you had, you'd said that this is not something that is confined to Gardner Edgerton, that you're hearing other reports around the state. So we know that you can't go into specifics, necessarily, but what's the temperature out there? Like?
Yeah, I think, you know, with the onset of a new school year, and as we said, at the beginning of this podcast, also, at the same time that we're coming up on elections, I think, we're going to just naturally see some politicization around certain issues in school boards. That kind of happens all the time. And, you know, unfortunately, for trans students, they are the narrative of choice right now. So there are definitely other areas of concern across the state with trans students rights in their in their public school districts. And, you know, the ACLU is concerned about this, for sure we've got we've got an eye on what's happening across the state. I just put out some messaging from our affiliate, trying to reach just specifically trans students across the state to remind them, you know, what their rights are under Title Nine, and also to remind them that they can reach out to the ACLU if they think that their rights are being violated.
And and also DC like your position. Now, what's you're doing this is this is kind of a new role at the ACLU of Kansas. Right. So can you tell us just a bit about that?
Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I am not quite a month in to this position as the LGBTQ plus legal fellow with the affiliate. But what my job will be doing is for the next two years through 2024, I will be dedicated specifically to LGBTQ discrimination issues in the state. So whether that's looking at, you know, trans students rights in schools under Title Nine, whether that's making sure that folks aren't being discriminated against at their jobs or when they're seeking housing or medical care, that type of thing, but also just making sure that our providers and folks across the state know what LGBTQ folks rights are and making sure They're not violating them. They're protecting them.
And Brennan as a grad student at KU, you are now kind of, you know, watching a lot of these changes or debates, you know, that DC was talking about. And so I'll ask you the same question I asked DC what? What's the temperature that you kind of feel? What What are your thoughts as you're watching this stuff unfold across the state?
Yeah, I would also echo a lot of one of DC has said, and also the importance of knowing your rights as well for especially our students that are in K through 12. A friend who works for school district, family works for the school district. And they're also getting messaging like this. And this isn't a different district. Though it might not even be through a formal written, we're talking about a school board. They're being asked to take down say, space stickers or ally stickers. And the school district's reasoning is that it's too political. However, we all know, that's not that's not the case. And so I know that it's starting to ramp up, not even just on this side of the state, but also further west, you go
well, and it's it's very difficult when folks are told that their existence is political. It's highly problematic, or that they're, you know, basic cornerstones of their lives are. And speaking of that, I want to turn here just a moment to the governor's race, where earlier this month, GOP, gubernatorial candidate and Attorney General Derek Schmidt made an appearance with the University of Kentucky swimmer, Riley Gaines, to voice his support for a state law that would prohibit transgender kids from competing in girls and women's sports at a kind of the academic and collegiate levels. And this is a bill that has been taken up a couple of times in the Kansas legislature, it has been adopted by the House and Senate but vetoed for a couple of years in a row by Governor Laura Kelly, that veto has been sustained a couple of times. But to me, at least, and I wrote about this, I found it a very distressing thing that the candidate did, because I felt like it's, you know, putting a target on trans kids for purely political reasons. Brennan, I know we were talking about it a little bit before the podcast, your your thoughts?
Yeah, I think it's also highly concerning. Upcoming this Sunday, Derek Schmidt will also be hosting Ron DeSantis. I know we're trying to keep this Kansas focused. So I'll do my best to do that as well.
I mean, this is all happening
at the I mean, this leading the nationwide attack on trans kids is Derek Schmidt. Not not Derek Schmidt, Ron DeSantis. And Derek Schmidt is willing to partner and use that as his tool to get the governorship. And it's distressing and just flat out discussing that we're using kids as political fodder.
DC or Brennan illegal? I mean, can someone give a little bit of context on the the Florida part of this?
Do we want teachers to remain in Kansas is the number one question that comes to my mind. Because if Florida is hemorrhaging teachers right now,
and that is the don'ts don't say Hey, Bill. Yes.
That's why you do we need to clarify that. Yeah. Which it's leaving kids in a terrible position down there.
Yeah. Well, but Florida is also it's my understanding, also attempting through its like rulemaking authority in the state attempting to restrict kids in the Medicaid program down there from accessing, they're trying to forcibly
D transition. Yes, yeah, transition services. And they're aiming to also do that to adults as well.
Which, again, like, seems very problematic to have this all in.
It's not about sports.
I mean, I think like we can kind of note that just if we're talking kind of broad scale about what's happening and that this is a systematic push to remove bodily autonomy, you know that that's coupled with what happened with Roe and the dogs decision that came down and that doesn't just impact read productive rights, you know, that definitely impacts trans folks ability to, you know, live authentically as themselves. And we're seeing that play out with these states that are trying to push Medicare medical bans as well. And you know, the Kansas legislature introduced a similar bill just didn't get as far as the women's sports bills had. But you know, that's that's a concern in Kansas, just like it is nationwide.
And this is also where Brennan kind of enters our conflict. You should, you should, you should or note that just really quickly, just recap everything that happened. Well, not me, not every single thing. But you could just say, what happened?
I'll say, I'll use my Facebook version of myself or not my Twitter. So because my Twitter self is often a lot more, what's the word crass? Oh, that to that to certainly I would say this. Last April, I sent a letter to remember the name of the bill at this point. The bill, the bill, last April, got a response back from representative Cheryl Helmer. That was highly problematic, and also was attacking representative buyers. And so I was actually told by a friend, hey, you should probably share this. And so that's kind of how that went down. Where my involvement kind of came in.
And we learned about it at the reflector. And then you became a national story for that was a little wild, a hot minute, not kind of live. In the Washington Post and elsewhere.
Yeah, it is the wild handclap is interviews have calmed down a little bit, to be
honest. But so turning now, I mean, I think we've we've already kind of outlined this a little bit with DeSantis, coming to the stage to rally for Derek Schmidt. Rachel DC, Brennan, and probably in that order, what are what are you all looking at and thinking about kind of in the weeks and months to come as we continue to track these kind of problematic bills and proposals, and you know, what folks are doing?
I think we're looking a lot at censorship. I've noticed a few schools now I'm looking at the ALA, the American Library Association, I've been looking at the list here, we are seeing a bit of an uptick here in banned books, I think. And then to get a little bit off topic here. I'm also interested in finding the actual numbers on some of these transgender builds and such like when going back to Edgerton school district here, basically, when I asked about numbers of incidents that happened, and the number of complaints they actually got about people using the wrong bathrooms, I think there are about to Winston either, it was like two instance, two bathroom instances, complaints in like three years. And that's just such a little number is for like this kind of broad scope. So for me, I think those are the two kind of areas of concern here, like who is going to affect, like, how much that's going to damage them, and then also censorship. Do you see?
Yeah, I think I do just want to note that I'm hopeful that we're not seeing more of this restroom facility provision that we saw at Gardner Edgerton, mostly because that is one area we know is settled law. There was a decision that came out of a court of appeal a federal court of appeals case that the Supreme Court, they declined cert, which essentially just means the Supreme Court said we're not going to review this opinion, we so it stands as is. So essentially, they were like confirming what this Court decided. That Court has said, schools cannot force trans kids to either use a bathroom based off their sex assigned at birth, or a other rising and stigmatizing like gender neutral option, like that policy, as written, which is what we see in the Gartner revised policy right now is a violation of Title Nine and the US Constitution. So you know, we've been seeing these bathroom debates since 2016. earlier than that, and I think we are done with them. I'm hopeful they're done because the law is settled. And so schools should not be inviting a chance to lose their federal funding. So I think, you know, I am concerned like what what Rachel was saying about additional other policies popping up where they're kind of, you know, facing off LGBTQ student rights with maybe parents parental rights, that type of thing and this censorship piece in the First Amendment, I think We're gonna see that stuff coming up. And also just kind of broadly, especially in a state like Kansas, the clash between LGBTQ rights and religious freedoms, I think a lot of times we see people using, you know, religious liberties sort of as a shield to hide behind or not have to actually follow non discrimination law. So I think those areas are areas that will definitely be keeping an eye on at ACLU.
Brennan, what what are you paying attention to?
Certainly, like you said, the number of bills that come out, I think keeping, keeping best tabs on that as I can of paying attention to what's going on in the state. Also, because we're gonna really be looking at how can we continue to support trans kids? And what extra efforts do we need to go to through considering removing this more political season where we're about to ramp up and start elections, that's also going to ramp up the rhetoric, and probably the stress and the abuse, honestly, of politicians towards trans kids? And those conversations that how those affected in the home, so certainly need to continue looking on how to add to that
support. Okay. Well, thank all of you. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you to DC heegaard. Thank you to Rachel. Thank you to Ron and ripple. Thank you all for taking the time to contribute to the Kansas reflector podcast today. Thanks for having us.