I think getting leverage communication and then kind of try to align your your schedule like financial schedule with the clients because each project is different.
Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I am your host Ryan Willard and today I am joined by girl Sana hash Mati a luminary in the world of architectural lighting design. She is based in New York City's vibrant metropolis. She is a visionary, architecturally trained educator and the founder of the seed a distinguished women led architectural lighting design studio, educated at the esteemed Eastern Mediterranean University in Cyprus with a bachelor's in architecture, and further honing her craft with a master's degree in architectural lighting from the Polytechnic University of Madrid Spain. Girl son has career has traversed continents. international footprint spans projects in Spain, Iran, Australia and the United States, and each have contributed to her multi faceted expertise goes on his contributions in her field are nothing short of remarkable. She has been recognized globally she was named among the top 40 under 14 lighting design talents in 2017. And she has garnered accolades such as the top 40 under 40 retail design award in 2023. Her outstanding work was celebrated with awards for visitor experience and museum exhibition, alongside the prestigious workplace Lighting Design Award. Among many achievements stands the Argo contemporary art museum, a cultural center where girls signers mastery of lighting design shines brightly. This iconic project which she illuminated in 2020 as earned acclaim, including the esteemed Aragon Awards and the coveted title of designs building of the year. At the seed Gao Sana and her accomplished team, a mosaic of talents from architecture to engineering share a profound dedication to lighting designs transformative power. Together, they craft environments that resonate with those who inhabit them, seamlessly blending innovation with human connection. In today's episode, Gal, Santa and I discuss some of the business principles that she's implemented to ensure a profitable and growth orientated business. Gazzara was one of the Business of Architecture, smart practice, clients and practitioners. We've worked with her throughout her journey shortly after she set up her firm, which we talked about that we also talk about what it's like, as a consultant to be working with architects and we get some really interesting insights there about what makes a powerful team, what kind of things really work well. And we address the elephant in the room, which is in many scenarios. When we talk to consultants who are working with architects, they struggle to get paid on time. Why? Because the architect themselves are not getting paid on time. So we talk about that this in depth girl Sana has been very powerful in the way that she leads her projects, the way that she has been able to either create her own contractual agreements with clients so that she can ensure that she gets paid. She gives us some really fascinating anecdotes of some stories of how she has helped an entire architecture team get paid on time. And she shares with us the details of how she does that the kind of conversations that she leads with clients and with architects and the frustration of what happens when these consultants aren't getting paid on time. Okay, so really important conversation. Brilliant talking to gal Santa. very accomplished. Sit back, relax and enjoy. Gold sauna, Ash Ratty. And
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Kasana Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
Hi, I'm really good. Really excited to be on the podcast. Thank you so much for inviting me.
My pleasure. I was very excited to have you on the show your past VLA clients, so we've worked with you in the past, you're the founder of seed lighting, you guys have got an incredible portfolio of lighting work residential, institutional. And it's and it's also, you know, kind of, you're at the forefront of driving this relatively new industry in and of itself. And I kind of occupying this really important part of architectural design and partnering very intimately and closely with architects. And we could talk a whole whole lot about the importance of lighting. And the more I'm learning about it as its own, feel, it's absolutely fascinating. And an incredibly important as well, it's like one of the easiest ways to, to kind of up level, the built environment is through quality lighting. So welcome to the show. Very excited to have you here. Perhaps we could just talk a little bit about your career. And you could tell us about the genesis of
seed, how it started. Thank you so much. Before that, I want to I want to just express how humbling this moment for me is to be a guest on this architecture, because I started seed in 2018, just realizing that I had no idea about business. So I was just a sponge for new books, all the books out there, all the podcasts, and a friend of mine recommended Business of Architecture. And I started and I became hooked and I listen to hundreds of episodes and being on this show after all these years. It's it's just it's kind of looks like a milestone. And I'm very, very grateful for it. Yeah, thank you. And I hope this helps helps the people that are starting their business to get some insights. And yeah, so I about seeds. So I started. Well, I, I studied architecture and worked as an architect for a little while. And then this is in Cyprus. And then I went to Spain, I did a master's in lighting design. I was working in Spain for some years in Barcelona. Then I moved to San Francisco. And from then there, I moved to New York. And a few years after moving to New York, I decided to start my own business, which was a very ambitious move. Because there are tons of lighting design studios in the city, and they're all really great. There's the quality of work that's been done. It's really high. So competition was high. And it was just this early 30s immigrant woman trying to find their their own net network in the city. But I just had to do it. So I went for it. And so that's how everything started. But almost six years. It's
quite amazing actually doing it in somewhere as kind of intimidating or slash inspiring as New York. Was that city? Was it there? Was it more difficult? Or was it actually there was more opportunity because it's so intense because there's so much competition because there's so much more happening there.
Yeah, I feel the second lighting, I think just all these people here that are really talented and they're hustling for their dreams, and you see them and it's just inspiring. i For me, it was not intimidating. I just wanted to join and and also because of this fact it's it's not that if you even don't have any network from before, I didn't go to school here but it's not difficult to start those conversations and those relationships in New York that's what I felt compared to all those other places.
So when you first opened the doors, what were you doing to walk those first projects and and what was it that had you get interested in the Business of Architecture and come on and become one of our clients and in the early days?
Our Okay, so um, well when I first started it was me in a Chinatown co working desk. And but I just knew this is not a freelance work I'm doing I wanted this to be full blown business and I had a vision already. So I started to so it was very, this part was I think it was the most challenging to to make people trust you because I was an expert in lighting design, but I thought and I knew how to do good work. But all the work that I've been done I've been doing was from an for another firms I couldn't even advertise it. So I had to make people trust me. And I also I was not I didn't know how to do sales. And I always had this image of salesperson that I was not one in my mind. But then I soon figured that beer sales in everything anyway steered either pitching a project or interviewing or now this is my method. So And I focused on what I'm good at, it's which is not going to tell someone to come work with me, this is what I did, but it was more than human connections. So, so I attended every events. And, you know, like connected with all the people that I knew. So I started to get projects. And I also kind of similar to your story that you told on one of one of the podcasts you were talking about, which is I was used to high end large scale projects, I was not used to someone calling me Oh, I'm redoing my basement, what type of two by two light fixture I should do. So I'm getting to that level getting public projects was challenging, but I think just connect connecting, and I'm going to maybe open this further later on. But from for our for lightnings. Ours, it's much easier to build that network because my clients are architects. So we have a lot to talk about. And we know each other's language, I'm not going to this unknown world of rich people telling them to hire me. So that really helped. But yeah, so the first project I got was actually University, Art School of foreign university of Columbia University, which is, was huge. And I had to hire interns and get to start to do that and grow that a bit. And this is all back in 2018. So when COVID happened, I lost so many contracts and all those visions. And you know, I what I wanted to do for the business kind of went on hold. And I started to, I realized what I have right now is time, from the things that makes a business work. So I mean, my expertise are there, I don't have any money anymore. So that's what the only thing that's left for me is time. So I decided to use it and invest on it. And because I loved was a frog, I was like I want to coach like this. So I reached out to Enoch. And, and he is a pretty good salesperson. Because after first talk, although it was way out of my budget, I was like I want to do this, this is what I want to do. And I think it so I invested a year of in cabin coach and coaches and actually learning what running a business really is. And it's way more than just doing good projects. So yeah, yeah, this was, I think, a pivot point in in what I was doing before and after COVID.
What what are some of the things that you've implemented now, that have really made the business kind of just less stressful, much easier, they've given you peace of mind, and a lot of confidence, what have been some of the things that have been really, that you're really proud of that you've implemented? I
think most importantly, I mean, most importantly, what I'm proud of, it's, it's my team, because without them, This couldn't have happened. Where we are, and this team of we are growing under, you know, high efficiency people, we are all working towards building this. So that's the most important thing I'm proud of. But also some things that I implemented from, from the learnings of being in a coaching group was systematizing, everything. So we have built I build systems for everything from the beginning, and now everyone else in the team contributes to that. So yeah, if you just have no idea about lighting, design and join our office, no one has to talk about anything. We do have all this videos to watch our systems and templates. So that really helped us helped our business be more efficient. And then delegate delegating. I think this is hard for every creative person kind of starting a solopreneur ship is whether just delegate and that's so so freeing and so actually like makes makes your business move. So, delegating admin tasks, delegating your IT delegating your accounting, and delegating your projects. So that is what I think was the most valuable things also, plus all the financial insights that I had no idea about
Really you? You mentioned that at the beginning, the team being the thing that you're most proud of? How, how have you been able to? Or what kind of insights? Could you share about a attracting, like, decent people and be holding on to them?
So? That's a great question. Because I think also another challenge for it for small business or for an entrepreneur is to attract talent, especially in New York City, that there are all these other lighting design studios, that they're more established. So they probably pay better. And they, you know, they have some projects that students would be I want to be here and I want to join. So making people trust you and come on board with your vision. It's like real building. So I think my pitch at the beginning was that, which is pretty, it's pretty honest. But it's, we're building something together. It's not that I built something and you joined to help me we want to be a team of creatives. And we want to build something that maybe we are not offered in other places, which is a balanced environment. We work with a lots of transparencies, everyone knows everything about the studio, and they're important. So even an intern joining joining seeds, they're treated like an executive person, they have a voice. So I think that was that's an important thing for us to keep there was trial and error. I'm not going to say every person we hired worked out. But yeah, I think it's more of inclusion, just creating a team of collaborators.
What kind of transparency Do you have, like with with financials and kind of profit and money?
Yes. So I think actually, this is what what I do, some people don't believe in it, I recently had a conversation with my friend in Barcelona, and, and she said, Oh, you don't share these things with everyone. But it's, I think, in order to make our projects more efficient, one thing that it's ethos of of my studio is that our most important project is our studio itself, how it runs, and everything else is a contributing to it. But it's a nice way more important how we run Yeah, like how it's like a machine that needs to be oiled well, it needs to work well. And every part matters. So then projects become our running projects, correct in a in a correct efficient way. And profitable is is our project. So we share the proposal fees with everyone, especially project managers, they know what a schematic design is gonna bring to the company. And they know they rate and they don't have any hours each person has. So they're constantly checking where we are, so that we don't work, even a single hour free. Which this was a big win. Because obviously, when I started I was low fees, and working for free a lot. But I and we do work for free, free do pro bono work. But for projects, that means something to us. And it's, you know, impactful project. But yeah, we said this, everyone knows where they stand and transparency on why your why's your billing rate this versus you don't make this much money, obviously. And this was my big questions always when I when I was working with other studios before and it was like, why are you charging so much for me? Like, you know, I'm not making that. But so it's transparency. So explaining the multipliers explaining our expenses, and the target revenue, everyone knows about it. And it's not embarrassing to have profit. And it's not embarrassing for me to say I want this much. And you can get here because this is the hierarchies here are just more, I mean, more inclusive. So you don't, it's not that only the owner is gonna make money. If you're more efficient, we have a good bonus system that part of it is going to be distributed to so everyone works.
Amazing. i That's so refreshing to hear because that's something that's a conversation that we have here a lot of Business of Architecture with many clients. And you know, we're very keen for people to develop a culture where it's more transparent with financials and there's, there's definitely like an old school way of thinking and design businesses where Nope, you don't keep that you keep that knowledge private. I mean, sometimes it's so transparent that even the business owner doesn't know how much profit they're making. And that's really problematic. But it you know, it creates a different culture in the business where everyone can see that it's a healthy business and my salary is actually contributing to, you know, the, you know, the mechanism of the businesses yet well, we have to we have to charge the people who are doing the The production work out because that's the service that we're selling. And actually, what we charge you out also pays for the office manager and it pays for the rent and it pays for all the CAD programs and it pays for the cleaning person to come in and, and make sure that we've got a nice environment, etc. And it's not, that's not always obvious when we first you know, when you first enter into a business, and, you know, I've shared before, I've had young architects call me up at birth, and they've kind of been shocked and frustrated when they find out that their boss is charging them out of three times what they get paid. So how do you do you know, how do you actually present some of this information? Do you have it, like a kind of financial meeting with the whole team is involved or, and whereas
I have, there is some limits, like in the way of I mean, limits and based on your, you know, if you're an intern, it's just the time that you're going to spend on getting to know this is going to be massive. So, but in general, I think I mean, everyone, that's a project manager in the firm, project manager, meaning a senior designer, I'm not necessarily an executive, but we have sheets made, it's like a Google Sheet document, but we have for every project that we sign, we fill in the phases and the fees, and it's kind of we had someone make an automatic formulated sheet. So it's, it generates your hours or every week, the project managers need to look at it and see how we've been spending our time. And and I sit with with them and review it. And then also, I think and trends we do have with with more senior people, we do have a financial meetings about target revenues and who was by getting a raise or all those things. But yeah, as far as transparency, I think one one thing that there is not enough transparency, or there is no transparency, I think it's normal, it's it's everyone's salary, they don't notice this is not okay in us. But everything about a project.
That's that's, I mean, there's I've watched studies where there have been companies who have been totally transparent with other people's salaries. And that's the one that where everyone starts to get upset, and it creates unnecessary. Yeah, I think there's, I think that's, that's kind of the line, but certainly the performance of the business and, you know, expenditure and how the finances are working is really, really important. And that people have got an ability to affect it with their performance, and they can share back in the rewards of the of the organization. You mentioned a little bit about systems that you've implemented in the business and that you have been using videos can tell us a little bit more about that about the sorts of things that you found really key for you to systematize? And like, how do you organize it? How do you curate How do you curate those systems?
So it's, um, it actually has been a very, for me fulfilling process, because, you know, you know, you those things a certain way, and you can never explain it. So what I learned from Billy is, is was this platform, we're used to use loom but when you're doing something while you're doing it, you record and you will talk or as if you're explained to someone, but I think the most important ones, we started with kind of made a map of what are the things that are most important to be systematized? And we don't we want consistency in in, in the business. So first, we have all our service structure, how you save something, or you name something, where everything lives on our server, and then how do we generate it into our deliverables? What are the qualities? What are the specifics that they all need to look the same, we do a lot of technical documentation of lighting controls, and you know, all the technicals of how they go together at the same time, how you reply to certain emails for the rep versus a client. So there's a template for all of that in our system and and we have a separate so we have two categories of admin systems, that not everyone should watch everything and then we have a project and then we have a financial so there's all systems and videos for everything. But something that is that I really enjoy is when I go to the channel and we have I see a junior person recording a Revit tip worked under and so we have it's so and without you know, there's the self initiated this and there's like oh my I tips on Bluebeam were all the software's now they have their own field folder. So if someone's learning them, they can go. And I go there and learn a lot of things, obviously from from everyone, because I think there are better and software's. And yeah, so this is the best part.
That's lovely. That's, that's really nice that the actual team is now kind of unprovoked, making these little tips and sharing it. And then you have kind of platform for for shared knowledge. The other thing you were talking about was delegation. And you kind of started to allude to the fact that actually as an entrepreneur, delegating, whilst, like, intellectually, it seems really obvious. In practice, it's quite difficult, and particularly when you love what you do. And we can get very emotionally attached to certain tasks, what sorts of things are, what challenges did you face with delegation? And how did you overcome them?
I think, one, I would say a positive thing about my personality is that I'm not I don't have this ego of my design or my things. But something that is not so great is that I'm very specific about graphics, and how visually things look like. So I can't get away with a presentation that has things not aligned, or it doesn't look good to me. So that was the most challenging for me was how people, you know, it's subjective, I guess, but we had to align graphically also in the in the blog we're delivering. But I think, one like I was lucky to, like my first call on one of my first senior employees and collaborators, we had for us to work together. So we share a lot of common taste in the way we deliver. So that was very easy delegation. So it was like your projects, you do it. We just take together. But I think one, yeah, and that was difficult. But I think coming, becoming comfortable with this, the fact that I'll do this quicker myself, and I do it better. But having you having the developing that patience of I'm gonna wait for you a week and mark up everything multiple times, until you learn it, that was something that you have to develop. And it's it doesn't come easy.
Like patient,
it happens if it's four times a lot of patients, but yeah, and but people if you are patient, and you don't make the person that you're working with nervous or stressed out, or make them feel they have to do exactly what you want, and you give them that agency, it's most of the time, I would say like 90% of time, the result is a good thing. And if you don't it's feel make mistakes, because they're not, they don't feel they're doing. They're in their sweet spot. They're just doing what you want. So yeah, love it.
Let's talk a little bit about money and the financial health of like, you know, have your own business. And then the financial health of other people's businesses, because it's one of, you know, one of my favorite topics, or it's not my favorite topic, but it's a topic I get the most animated about is late payments. In architecture, it is everywhere that I see, I've seen so much knocking stuff with practices that have, you know, I've seen practices with 80 90% of their total AR, which is late, I've seen practices that are carrying, you know, $2 million worth of late payments, and their annual revenue is only about 1.25. You know, it's really insane. And it's, it just seems like for architects, that it's so commonplace that, that we've just sort of accepted it. And now if you're a consultant who's working with an architect, and they're leading the project, and they're, they're paying you late, this becomes really frustrating. And I've seen it from both sides of the architect, and then from other consultants who are working inside of an architect led team. And you guys are not getting in that you guys are not getting paid by the architect and the architect is refusing to allow any of the other consultants to liaise directly with the client, and then taking on and wearing the hat of the leader but then is not leading the client to pay them properly. It's a very difficult scenario, how have you felt been facing this?
So yeah, I'm going to share my experience and also my insights. I think it's actually thinking about this and where we stand as consultants and It's an it's a very particular position to be in. Because, as I said, everyone thinks that it's easier for us to get clients because I work with architects, and it's lovely, it's beautiful we have, we have this conversation, we share same values, we went to the same school. And so we can become friends, my clients are people that are really know, and they're gonna build this relationship and friendship. So that at the same time, it makes it much more difficult to do collections. It's as if you go to someone you know, and you trust and you know, they, they're not doing this to become rich. And you tell them, like, Where's my money, where you're not paying my invoices. So the, I think the challenge is that whatever we do, like, I really try it, and we have paid expensive price and in late fees on payments from the clients, it's we've lost a lot of money, a lot of revenue throughout up to this day. But what what I do is, and my team, we kind of look back and see what can we do better, you know, all these steps that you can do, but if your clients financial knowledge, or the system that they follow, it's rigged, it just doesn't work, it's wrong. It's really hard to fix anything, because the client, the architects don't have the money, they need to get it from someone, and if they don't know how to do it, no matter how many times I follow up on how many whatever, you know, like, steps that we take is just not going to work well. But we are. And it's interesting that it happens more with its older architecture offices, because they're just used to this method. And it's, it's, it's a big challenge, but I think I mean, we're making baby steps and being better at it. But just to tell someone that you're valuable, you have to charge for your, for your services, because you know, a lot you're courting this whole team. And now you're telling me, I can't pay you because we pay you when we get paid. And I always ask why are you having to you've been paid? Do you need help with that? Do you need me to call someone, because it's been six months, like, it's really strange. And, and I understand that, you know, the architects want to keep their relationships, and unfortunately, we were not thought to fight for for our values as, as, as an industry, but every architect for me is like, you know, if you have a developer that architects have, and they love to work with, and repeated projects, every client of mine is like that, because architects are gonna have more projects. So I have this relationship even more, it's with this person. And I and imagine, I've been after this client and architecture office, that is my, you know, like it was my idols working there. And I love how they do design and their office environment and their ethos for sustainability. I just love all the things they stand for. And I go after this, I attend their events, I connect with every one of their employees. And at the end, after three years, they send me an RFP. So it's like, oh, yeah, big, big win, we're getting this project from our favorite office. And then they send another contract next time you sign this, you add the project, and also sign this, and I read it and it's, we don't pay retainer fees to the consultants and remove the late fee clause from your contract. And I'm like, Are you just telling me my face that you're not going to pay me on time, and I have nothing to hold on to? So what do I do here just say no to all the efforts that I put, to get this apply until then this job and and that makes it so difficult. So I've we have what we have been doing is just pushing for direct contract with the clients because it's just, I don't want to go to an architect and say, Let me teach you how to get your money from this guy.
So that's, you know, that's really interesting because, you know, that that's often my advice with with with other consultants is like, you know, circumvent the architect where possible because if they haven't got the systems set up in place, you know, you've got the only other option you've got is to sit down and train them on how to get paid. And that's a big I mean, that can actually be quite a you know, a bonding experience and you know, collegiate but it's a lot of energy. And to be fair, most architects aren't open to that. It's not a it's more like well, that's just the way it is you got to suck it up. Oh,
yeah, this is this dad. And I think because mostly this happens with large architecture firms that they have an accounting department, that account department has no idea. So they're like, didn't you read the contract, you're not gonna get paid now, I'm like, but we are in this. So I have to make Zong grind right along email and copy the principles say we are in this together, we are designed team, we need to stand up for each other. You know, I did all of this. And I did pick the phone and talk to the CEO of the company to the more higher positions and it helps, it always helps. But it just takes a lot of energy and time. And sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes it does.
So have you found more success in actually contracting directly with the client? How do you how do you kind of allow the architects to to allow you to do that? Or do do you actually say, well, we're not going to work with you unless we get paid on time.
For being we try we've pretty firm about this, because of the bad experiences, because I'm not going to take an architect that is my client, to court, for example. It's just, it's so I clear the I think the first thing that it's dishonest communication, so please have me directly contracted to the client, because we want to follow up on our on our late invoices. And it's just really difficult to do it with you directly. Because we know how to deal with the client, we know how to stop work. And then that makes you have to stop work. And that makes you help us as a team. But if you kind of push me to No, we won't, we need to submit this. Although our invoices are not paid, it's just not going to work. For us. It's we have had pretty bad experiences of on payment and late payments with architecture firms. So I think the last one kind of example, I was telling you about this firm that I really want to work wanted to work with and their project and their causes. So I told them directly that I want to be contracted by the by the developer. And they said, No, we don't do this. And I just I mean, I think this is the biggest thing, but I was like, Okay, so I'm not going to work on this project. Or you have put me in touch with the developer or we're not going to do it, even though it was a very tough decision. They said, Okay, go ahead, if you can get money from them, if you can get a retainer fee, go ahead. Feel free. So I it was also, surprisingly an easy process to have the client sign all of our requirements, they didn't even question in minutes, that I want my percentage or retainer fee. They didn't question late fees. When we so we stop work, we just really do because otherwise, it's just cash flow. And I need I need to go credit get a credit to pay my people. Because the developers not. So yeah, so it worked. It actually really works much better to work with the client and which is it's sad to say this, because I don't want to say okay, you don't have to do it. I'm gonna leave you alone in this. But it's, it's sad that we can we can't be together and and just make this happen. We are same industry. But yeah. But I
mean, that's amazing, right? So that you've actually, you know, you, you are able to negotiate with the clients, the terms and conditions that you want, and you're able to hold the client accountable to it. What did the architect do afterwards? Are they are they just kind of looking at you going? Or how the hell are they getting paid on time? And we're still struggling?
And they didn't tell me. They were I hope that that affected them and kind of be more demanding on their financial, you know, like, they were very rights basically. Yeah, I think it's like being demanding. I
really hope like, you know, practices hear this and kind of hear themselves, you know, hear hear for themselves like, right, where we're really creating some issues here by not standing up for our, for our contracts and for our agreements. And just, you know, it doesn't need to be confrontational or adversarial. It just needs to be assertive, and for you to hold people accountable. Can you tell us a little bit about how you then hold the developer accountable to make sure that you get paid? You say that you you maintain leverage on the project by kind of stopping work? What does that process look like when you send out an invoice or how how do you do it and maintain a good relationship and not upset people?
It's not a I mean, to be honest, it's never a precise you know, holding leverage. There's all because our work is our invoicing. of time and schedule with the project schedule, they never aligned. Exactly. So you send your invoice and you have a month until your next invoice. And in this month, you finished the whole CD phase, for example. So that's where retainer fees come handy. But I think what's really helped helps with developers is constant follow up and communication, like you're gonna have an invoice in two days. Here's your invoice through reminders, reminders, reminders, phone calls, and if they don't pay, it's, and then we don't even have to go to the developers, we just tell the architect, we are not going to be part of this deadline, because our invoices haven't been paid. If so they have to now go five, our invoices. It's basically I think, take getting leverage communication, and then kind of try to align your, your schedule, like financial schedule with the clients because each project is different. So if you are, if you're, you tell me I pay you every 45 days, instead of your 30 days on the invoice, then we need to adjust our deliverables or the when we send you reminders. It's a difficult process. But I think with developers has been much more easy. And it's a good example is when you work with individual bits, if you're working on a residential project, and you're working with a person that is there and understands you and their lawyers, and and they don't question it is just like, this is your invoice and they paid and I and I always question why shouldn't this be everybody? Why shouldn't we just be like lawyers, and you know, have a simple life. But
love it. So if you have you ever kind of collaborated with an architect then and you've taken charge and said, We're going to make sure that we the both of us get paid?
Yes. It's this happens, it happens a lot in retail in because I work from it because my background, a big chunk of what we do is luxury retail stores. And interestingly enough, they're actually high end rich people that are, you know, they're making this little purse, which the pattern that costs this same fee of my whole project. And and so that is because it's a it's a very valuable client for the architects because they one retailer makes 20 stores a year and around us. So I can see that it's becomes really difficult to demand. What you have to actually demand what you have contracted for. So there was this, this moment that so we are on those projects, too. And we know like I know that retailers don't pay retainer fee, and we accepted that. Okay, this is not going to happen. But at least we need to make sure we invoice monthly. And if they don't add this, I'm gonna say we are investing just a one to work not more and stop work. That's basically how I made the peace with this fact that they don't pay retainer fees. But so once the client didn't pay, they didn't pay any of our invoices for a long time. And the architect was like, oh, there's this new store opening and we're um, send your drawings, can you send it out by the end of the week. And, and I was just then was very frustrated of not being paid by this client. I have a mentor that actually has like a reverse story. But I had a mentor that he he was he had a boutique architecture office, that is only luxury two, and he sold his company and he retired. And I go to him sometimes. So I told him this, this brand is not paying anyone. And he said, well, because that's that brand. And you have to wait. It's normal. This is the price you pay to be to say I work with this name. So I left that meeting and it was like this is not this not correct? No, I have all this respect for you. This is not okay. So I picked up I saw I picked I sent it and I realized that all the junior people that or project managers of the architecture firm, they have no idea what this means. So I first called one of them and I said I'm not going to do this project, then you one. You're not going to get your drawings by the end of the week. Because imagine that someone tells you you're not going to get your salary in six months. Are you going to still go to work? and work hard. And she was Oh, I understand. And you know, because architects are just humble, nice people, like you're all together in this, but they just don't they need to be put in that place. So, so she just was speechless. So then, and I said, I know the client, I know the, you know, the client, person in the regional of this brand, I'm going to call them, and they hate this state are, those architects don't like you to directly contact the retailer. And I said, I know that I'm going to email them kind of like, not going to start them by just telling them I want to do this. And, and the CEO of the architecture firm, that hardly ever responds to any of like a he called me person, he was like, I'm sorry, you were not paid. Because we were not paid. But this, this is a repetitive, you just think that this is long term investments. And it just said, I just can't do this, because I'm going to go out of business if with this mentality. And, and I said, just let me call this person as that. And let me call this person and make him pay us all. So he agreed. So I paid I called the construction manager of the sprint and I said, we have not been paid as a team. None of us, I'm going to stop work. It's easy for me, but the architects can't work without consultants. So we had this Congress long conversation, and we were all paid today after, obviously with law negotiations of okay, so remove your late fees or those things, but it's okay. We just got paid after six months. And that was a really huge for me to do. And, and I also. Yeah, it was good.
That's an amazing story. And what's really fascinating about that is how, like, the the kind of senior architects in this position, were defending the fact that they were getting paid late, they were almost kind of protecting it and kind of being like, well, that's just the way it is we've got to deal with it. Or don't, or don't do anything. So yeah, amazing. Amazing.
I mean, I normal. Yeah, I could
almost imagine, you know, you structuring an agreement with an architect and saying, Look, we either work with the client directly, and we get contracted directly, and we sort out our own payments, or if we work with you, then we're the ones who control getting paid. And I've got a system in place where I can make sure that both of us are getting paid on time. You could even charge an extra fee for getting their fees in on time. Collection
proposal, like helping you with collections
presented their or their of all of their collections themselves. But that's really, you know, that's, that's really amazing, and really kind of just inspiring to hear that as a story. And, you know, it's kind of confidence and you haven't upset any Did you upset anybody in the process? Did anyone get angry at you? Was there any shouting?
Nobody was shouting. It's just demanding what you worked for. Nobody can chat. They're always embarrassed. And I've this is the the part that it's I've feel that it's the sad part of all this is that, you know, when I want to negotiate with a client with a developer, they're here to make money. They're here to make you the bank and get more interest on their money or, you know, they don't care. But architects are not like that. We all went to the same school. And we want to design beautiful places and not care about money in much. You know, this is like the unfortunate message of of an architecture school, but they're not here to take advantage of me and I know that so there's always they're always embarrassed for not having paid you. Yeah, it's not that they're, you know, stand up here and say, Well, I don't pay you now because I don't want to it's that never happens. Yeah, that is the sad part. But also Yeah, so it's so what what can we do to stop this together? It's, I think it's a very important conversation to have.
Amazing. I love it. I love it. It's really inspiring Asana. And I think before we we wrap up here, what have you got planned for the rest of the year? I know you guys have just moved studio had the studio move, go. Yes,
it's great. It's great. We have a lot more room so room to grow as well. Moving on, I think for first seed is just a little bit growing not too much. But I want to make my marketing more intentional. Because now we have been Just being a lot of referrals and old clients coming back, but kind of like delving to different typologies of projects getting more cultural work, saying more no to so many things. So this is the new the future for us. And one thing I want to add, to wrap up our conversation about financials is that I work a lot with emerging gunk architecture firms. That's basically what I realized. It's the best place for us to be and collaborate with younger architecture offices that they just started or same time as us. And that is really refreshing because the I feel the the future's bright for architecture, or financially as because they're not there don't buy into all those, you know, fossil industry rules that they're just like, we just sit together and decide to do something and, and design something, right. And, yeah, that's true. We are not business people. We are not developers, but we all live and we like to make money. And we need to value our work. So I think this effort is a collective effort. It's something that needs to be brought up at schools. I mean, I tried to tell that to all my students constantly, but it's something that we can do together. And it's not one firm doing something not right, it's us as a whole as an, you know, a profession that we just need to come together and stop this. And I am seeing that getting better and better by day five. It's just so nice to work with an architecture studio that was just started, like five years ago. And it's like, they just know clearly what they want to ask for. And they find those clients and they do it. So no one is gonna, you know, just wait for a year for a developer to respond to your emails.
Amazing, really, really inspiring us. And I thank you so much for coming on the show.
Thank you so much. That's great.
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