I mean, we're talking there are more people in the state of California than all of Canada
there you go.
Recording from my dining room in beautiful Marietta, Georgia, you are listening to the think inclusive podcast 002. I'm your host, Tim Vegas. Today I will be speaking with Nicole ariddek, co host of the inclusive class podcast on BlogTalkRadio.
Nicole spent many years as a classroom teacher in British Columbia, Canada in a fully inclusive educational system. Before moving to the US a few years ago. Nicole and I discussed the differences between the Canadian and US educational systems and their approaches to inclusion. We also talked about the most important ally for inclusion that a classroom teacher can have all of this and more on the think inclusive podcast. Thanks for listening.
I would like to welcome the call. aerobatics. I'm hope I'm pronouncing that right. Right. Okay to the think inclusive podcast. Nicole is an elementary educator who has spent over 15 years working in an inclusive school system in British Columbia, Canada, together with parents, administrators, co teachers and paraprofessionals. Nicole taught children with various moderate to severe abilities in her includes fully inclusive classrooms. Since moving to the US, Nicole has used her wealth of experience to support and raise awareness for the inclusive education of children with special needs. Nicole's belief is that all children should have equal access to the curriculum. And that drives her desire to share her knowledge with parents and colleagues in order to improve learning conditions for children with various abilities. She is also the co host of the inclusive class radio show, which is soon to be a podcast and tweets regularly at inclusive underscore class, among other things, and I just wanted to thank you so much for joining me on the think inclusive podcast. Well,
thank you for inviting me and having me and it's an honor, I'm looking forward to our conversation today.
Great, great. Well, probably whoever's listening to the podcast, has heard of you. Because most of the people that follow me also follow you. That's
right. Third audience.
But I just want to ask a couple questions for background because I don't really know, beyond you know, what you have on the website, the inclusive class, don't know a whole lot about your background. So how did you get your start in Canada as a special needs teacher? Or I'm not exactly sure what the terminology is for what you do, or what you did in Canada? Well,
what I was called encounters, typically a classroom teacher. But because it's an inclusive system, you end up becoming very well versed in special education. So but to backtrack and answer your original question. I graduated from university a while ago. say exactly when.
And I got my Bachelor of Education, my teacher credentialing, all that type of stuff. And just because of the nature of the system in British Columbia, the political system, the way the education system is set up there. And I can go into more detail about that later on. Our classrooms in British Columbia are typically first and foremost inclusive, we have
a system that, you know, is based on putting children into the regular education classroom first, before anything else. And from there, you know, their needs are met, you know, in the school, and then of course, bringing in outside professionals. So, we didn't really have and we don't to this day really have segregated classrooms where children with special needs go to for their entire day, you know, the self contained classrooms. And so basically, and also to when I first got out of university, my very first job was in a small community of 325, roughly people. And so I worked in a school where there were two of us, and I was the primary teacher. The other teacher was the intermediate teacher and so I had grades K two Three, so it was truly inclusive. on every level. Yes. So I and that's how I spent my first couple years teaching. And then I moved down to the city and into inner city schools and whatnot. So, yeah, you know, so every year you have a class, you know, of typically developing children and the new, you know, also you have children who have some, you know, with more needs than others, and, you know, you every, every year you just adapt and your curriculum to those needs, and bring in the professionals that you also that are available to support you. So, that's how, yeah, that's how we, that's how it works up there. At this point.
Well, that that just seems like such a foreign foreign concept. No pun intended. Exactly.
Foreign being the operative word.
Now, is there a difference in the way that the different parts? Or is it provinces in Canada? How they practice inclusion?
Yeah, it varies. And, you know, I just want to sort of preface the whole conversation by saying that, you know, I'm by no means an educational policy expert, on, you know, American education policy and Canadian, you know, I've had an opportunity to talk to a lot of professionals over the last year, but you know, doing my show, and reading and getting an understanding of what happens here in the United States, and what happens in Canada, you know, even I had to sort of learn, you know, what is happening in other areas of, of Canada. And so basically, it stems from the way the education policy is, is set and in here in the United States, your federal government sets out a mandate for every state, you know, the Free and Appropriate Public Education where students need to be placed in the least restrictive environment. Right. So that's a national policy, which each state sort of takes, my understanding is that they take that and then adapt that to, you know, the boards taken adapted to their each individual school needs. And yeah, so in Canada, with our provinces, we don't have a federal policy, the Government of Canada gives each province its own ministry of education, it's called, and the Ministry of Education, that province decides on the policy and how educational work in that province. But typically, you know, most provinces are their, their mandate is to put the child in the regular classroom first. It varies from province to province as to how, you know, often that happens and what that looks like. But Canada is also a country that has socialized health care. You know, it's a very, you know, it's a system where, sort of, you know, people's needs are met across education, health and retirement and whatnot. So the education system looks a little bit the same across the board. And in British Columbia, our Ministry of Education, they were quite so our leader in inclusivity. So, yeah. So that's, you know, from my understanding of both countries, how works. Right, right experience.
What do you moving down here to the US? What was the kind of the most glaring difference in the way that, you know, BC approached? Inclusive Education and California? And I know, we can talk a little bit more later about, you know, Georgia versus California, because those are the only two places that I've taught. So what what do you think the, you know, the kind of the biggest differences when you got to California?
Well, it really, it took me a while to figure all that out, because, you know, everything was just so new and so different. And you know, and and the only, you know, the only sort of differences that I could note, and that I could see right away were my children's schools. You know, one was an elementary school and other one was in middle school at the time. And I probably say it was more evident at my daughter's school when I noticed that it has self contained classrooms. And to me, you know, it took me a while to figure out what that was all about, because I had never really seen that happen. And we're all the children you know, the children with special needs would gather in the morning outside the front of the school in their own group with a couple of AIDS with it. Um, they didn't integrate into the playground at all, before school to play and socialize, they were just sort of kept in a small group, and they still, you know, to this day, that still happens. It's a wonderful school, you know, it's just a different way of doing things. And, you know, they were marched off to their classroom. And I also noticed that they had, you know, their own time for recess, they would go out in the playground and play on their own. They were, I believe, they, some of them take some classes with other grades. So, for example, you know, one child will go into music class with a grade three class, but then go back to the regular classroom. Right. So those are sort of the big ones that really, you know, right away struck me as being that's a little different than what I'm used to do. Right. Right. Obviously, there's a reason for it. I need to learn why. And, you know, that's kind of how this whole podcasts are, you know, my, my podcast, the show, the tweeting the whole social media side of my life got going. I thought, Hmm, I wonder how this works, and why and, you know, maybe there's some information that I have that I can share. Yeah.
Well, I guess what have you, what do you learn since? Because the, the blog and the podcast are relatively new, right. I mean, in the last couple of years, or has it been? A long?
No, it's been about a year and a bit. So yeah, it's very new. And I've left a lot. Yeah, sorry, go on. I interrupted your question.
Well, I guess, you know, I guess what have you really gleaned? You know, because it sounds very similar to the reason why I started the website. And then, you know, now the now the podcast is, it's really for me, you know, like, it's like, I realized, man, I just I need to know more about what is going on, and how to be a better teacher how to promote inclusion. And it just kind of seemed the next logical step, because I was already having these conversations with my colleagues. And kind of the thing that put me over the edge, I guess, or the fence is that, uh, I went to the TASH conference here in Atlanta, in December. Yeah. And I was able to present with my good friend, and mentor Gil Wilkins, who consultant for the Georgia Department of Education. And we had been working together on a pilot inclusion program for students with significant cognitive disabilities. And so after that whole experience, it just opened my eyes again. You know, it reminded me of why I wanted to become a special education teacher reminded me all of my training, as you probably you know, up in Canada know, the educational systems way ahead of the curve on, on inclusive practices. And then when you get into the schools, I was just shocked, like, you want me to you want me to do what I was taught to do this.
So, exactly.
But go ahead. So I wanted to know, what's the kind of the biggest thing that you've learned so far? With through this whole process?
Gosh, where do I begin? Well, first of all, you know, I would like to point out the, you know, the teachers that I've seen and talk to, and come across and here in, you know, my local area, and of course, doing the show and whatnot, incredibly, well educated and intelligent, caring people, you know, you definitely the strengths that are here lie in the education of the teachers, you know, who are going into these classrooms and, and working with children with special needs, you know, I find that or I feel that, you know, at a certain level, you know, in the Canadian system, there needs to be more training in certain areas in order to, to have, you know, the needs in your classroom, of course, you can bring in the professionals, but you don't have access to them 24/7 You know, all the time, right, five days a week. So, you know, sometimes, you know, I know myself, I've also felt too that I fit, you know, you could use a little bit more support and a little bit more training. So, in that sense, you know, I just want to say the positive is that You know, so much training and so much education for people for people going into this field. But, you know, what I've learned is that, you know, once people are, or once you have a conversation with people about inclusion and what it is and what it means, what it really looks like, you know, then people get on board and get excited about it, because it makes sense. Right? You know, I think I find that some people that aren't really sure how it works have never really seen it. You know, what it looks like in the classroom, I've never really seen an action, you know, have maybe been told that it wouldn't work for their child, or even seen, you know, as my co host, Terry Morrow often points out. She's my co host on inclusive class. She points out that inclusion is done, but it can often be done wrong. Right? That's correct. Yeah. So. And that's what my purpose in doing all of this social media and writing and the same thing you're doing is trying to get information out there that, you know, when it's done, right, and when you have all of the supports in place. It truly is the best possible situation for all children. Right. And we're not just talking to children with special needs. We're talking about regular developing children as well. So yeah, you know, and that's, that's the piece that keeps me motivated and keeps me going. keeps me going. Right. So share that knowledge. So yeah, it's, it's definitely, I'm enjoying it. And I think, you know, it's been a great opportunity to talk to some really great people and help get that message out, just like what you're doing right now. So
yeah, yes. Well, yeah, I mean, again, this is just, you know, a great, great to have conversations like this. One, another question I had for you, when you talk to colleagues, and something that I've run up against, in kind of trying to help people understand and catch that passion for inclusion. My classroom, I have students with severe and profound disabilities. So we've made some really great strides with getting my kids out in general ed, and, in particular, in our county. I feel it, it's one of the more inclusive counties, I guess, in Georgia, I see I hear some really great stories. And particularly our school, love our school, our administrative administration is very supportive. And, you know, they've been, you know, the kind of on this journey with me as well. But when we start, we have a range of self contained classrooms. So we have moderate, severe or severe and profound is what we call it here in Georgia. And then there's moderate or mid moderate intellectual disabilities, and then there's mild intellectual disabilities. And then you also have pullout or resource classrooms, where students with learning disabilities will go in. So that's kind of how that the continuum of services go in, kept people kind of filter in and out of that system. So when I kind of present, you know, my kids going to Gen Ed, they're a little bit hesitant, but they they get it. They're like, okay, yeah, you know, your students there on alternate assessment, you know, we can align activities to go with your assessment, and we can do some co teaching, I totally understand that. But once I start talking about taking some of the the kids with learning disabilities, or the ones that are placed in the mild intellectual disability, self contained classrooms, and once we start talking about that, there's some hesitation because of the desire to catch kids up to grade level. And because of test scores, and they don't really they can't really see how, you know, they feel like the student would fall behind in a general education classroom. So, so then, you know, what is your feeling on? Is there a place for a resource or pull out classrooms in this in the grand scheme of inclusion? And what's your feeling about that?
Well, I think that, you know, definitely there is a place for that. And that's, that's describes, you know, to a certain extent, the inclusive schools that I worked in that there was a room, you know, learning assistance room that some kids went out to, and had remediation, or, you know, extra support with even in our system gifted and talented kids fall under the special needs umbrella. And they are also served by, you know, getting that extra challenge that they need and whatnot, so, so they, they benefited from that, but back to the whole, you know, bringing the kids up, you know, having them pass the test with all the test scores, I read an interesting article about that the other day, and that really sort of shed some light on the differences between our systems, which I hadn't mentioned earlier, and you just reminded me of is that, you know, of course, here, there's a very, you know, a very strict sort of drive towards benchmarks, you know, getting scores, getting numbers, right skills are being assessed state tests, you know, and it's really hard to have an inclusive program within that framework, because an inclusive program requires flexibility. It requires differentiated learning, it requires the ability to have children with different levels in one class. And, you know, they're working towards, you know, their potential, of course, you have, you know, a curriculum that you, you know, are working with, and guidelines and milestones that the kids should be meeting. But, you know, that's another significant difference between the two countries in that respect, is that, or at least I would say, British Columbia, is that we don't have those strict state standards that are in place. So classroom teachers have more flexibility with their curriculum. So it's really hard. And, and I understand that what you're saying, because, you know, it makes complete sense to have a child in your room and you're worried about, you know, what score, they're going to get on their tests, or they're going to get left behind? Or how am I going to account for them, you know, and, and yet, they need all of this extra time and assistance, it's hard to write.
And I don't know how it is in Canada with teacher evaluations, but I don't know if you're aware of this, but Georgia, applied for the waiver for No Child Left Behind. Right. And so because of that whole waiver system, Georgia is now accountable to the federal government on new guidelines on how to assess and evaluate tshirt teachers. And some of that is going to be aligned to test scores. Now, we don't I don't think exactly know how that's gonna happen. There's a lot of theories and a lot of, you know, hand wringing about that right now. But, you know, it doesn't really put a lot of confidence in teachers and wanting to bring students especially in their classroom, because because they know, that they're probably not going to do as well, maybe on this test, and, you know, someone else who is, you know, scoring on grade level.
Right, right.
And so, you know, it's, it's a challenge, because that, like, what you said is the high high stakes testing is what drives a lot of our policy at this point.
And especially if that's tied to teacher evaluation, then, of course, you're gonna get a lot of kickback from that, and, you know, reluctance to, to take on a child that might, you know, require some extra attention and may not, you know, drive the scores up in that particular group of kids. So, wow, yeah, that's a challenge. I I don't know, I guess, really, I guess, you know, for me being a teacher. And you are too. I mean, we're professionals. Right, right. And that's how, you know, a system and society should view you know, our job. I mean, do dentists get people come into their office and regularly evaluate them? Right, doctors get evaluated? You know, lawyers get evaluated, like, Why do teachers have to face that strict evaluation and why would scores be tied to that and, you know, I think there has to be, you know, that also is an issue and definitely a challenge.
I think it does highlight the difference between, you know, Canada and the US too, because, like you said, there's already kind of an assumption about teachers. And, and education being a REIT, if I'm not mistaken, you know, along with healthcare and along with other social institutions, whereas in the US, we're still we're still debating that. Right. You know, I mean, that is a states rights and the role of federal government education. And, and, you know, the US is quite a bit larger than Canada. And I get that we I have, I have some family that that just moved to Canada in the last four years, and they had a, they had a baby up there. And I think he goes to the, he's going to school in Alberta. And okay, yeah, yeah. And, and, and so they've experienced a lot of those different differences. But there's something that they highlighted was, well, there's a lot less people in Canada than the US. So we're working with a, a size issue as well, you know, we have a lot of different states, you know, 50 states. And they all they all are, you know, they have their own kind of thing going on, you know, they're their own, I guess, rights that they want to uphold. So, it's just a it's a, it's just a numbers game. Yeah, yeah,
exactly. Yeah. I mean, we're talking, there are more people in the state of California than all of Canada. Oh, there you go. See? There you go. Advocating for children to, you know, have access to, you know, an education that's worthy. And we'll challenge them and allow them to be, you know, with their peers, and, you know, just be included, period, you know, it's a civil rights issue is what it is, you know, and there are people out there that are continuing to spread that message and talk about it. And, you know, it really, it's a movement, and it needs to keep talking about it and having these conversations. But yeah, there's an uphill struggle with the numbers here. It's gonna take more of us to do more talking.
Yeah. Well, and also in that, you know, I mean, it's the talking and the, like, promoting is good. And I think what people need to see is examples of really successful inclusion. And that's, hopefully, you know, what I want to do. I know that you, you said that you're not quite in the classroom right now.
No, unfortunately, I'm not right now. Which is why I have time to do all the tweeting and the article writing and the shows, no, we're down here for my husband's work. Okay. So, in order for me to work legally, I need to go about it in a legal manner, which takes several years. So I am using my time to do all of this and, you know, share my knowledge and until I can, you know, get into the get back into the into the classroom and, you know, get back into that world because I sure miss it. Yeah, definitely. You know, I
know that when you're Yeah, whoever whoever is gonna get you is, you know, gonna be so excited.
Maybe not, I might be voicing my, my desire for inclusion a bit too loudly. Oh, that's not that happy. Yeah, exactly. She's
got a website. She's gonna podcast.
I know, oh, no, we don't want her. Not her. So who knows? We'll see what happens down the road. But I sure missed it. Because as you know, you know, once your teacher you're always a teacher, and it's part of you. And it defines who you are as a person in so many respects. So, yeah, yeah. So hopefully, it won't take that long. Can be back at it. And I also really enjoy doing what I'm doing too, because I met some, you know, so many great people like yourself, and, and, you know, other professionals and parents and just all sorts of people. They're all interested in the same mandate. So, yeah, that's
great. That's great. Yeah. So to kind of wrap up, I have one one question for you. So think about, maybe think about your classroom days. And I want to know if there was one thing that You know, maybe there's a teacher out there listening, who is kind of trying to try and get this started here in, in the US. And maybe they're trying to do some inclusion or maybe they are an inclusion teacher or a coach in a co taught situation is there one kind of thing that just really worked for you, when you were in the classroom that you could share with all of us?
I have a lot of strategies, but I would say that the one thing that really worked for me, you have to bring the parents on board, you have to start the school year off, don't wait for that back to school night, you know, get a newsletter out to your class parents right away, invite them in, I would have what I would call an intake conference, actually, every classroom, my school had it, and you just sat and you listen to the parent talk for about 10 minutes or so about your child. And they would tell you about the child's like strengths, weaknesses, you know, you got to explain your program that was a face to face. And then right off the bat, they feel as a, you know, they're your partner in the child's education. And parents have a lot of, as you know, you know, have a lot of influence in, in the school and in your classroom. And if you can get them on board and behind you with inclusion, and, you know, they can support you in so many ways. And, you know, be there to help you, as you differentiate your lessons, be there to support you on a field trip, or be there to help you create materials for, you know, the various children in your class. So they're really your extra support system that you have access to. And, you know, I use parents all the time in the classroom, I don't know how, what type of participation you have in, in your own classroom, but I find that, you know, once you get them in there and show them that you you know, you want to be partners with them, and you appreciate their help, and you want their input, and you're both working to the success of the child. And, you know, you definitely have their have their trust and their interest in their support for the remainder of the year. So that was the big one for me, you know, and it was a continual communication to through the school year, it wasn't just a one off.
Deal. Yes. So
there's no doubt about it inclusion. I mean, it takes a lot of a lot of energy, a lot of time and, you know, but it's worth it. And the more support you that you can have the better. So
that's absolutely wonderful suggestion. Thank you so much. Well, that that wraps it up for interview. Nicole, I hope that we can have more conversations throughout, you know, this whole podcasting website process. So just I really appreciate you taking time out and talking with us. No
problem. And thank you very much for inviting me and I will be talking to you later and arranging for you to come on to our show. And we can just work together and spread the message. So it's been a pleasure. Thank you. It's great to talk to you. Have a good evening. Thanks. So
that concludes this edition of The think inclusive podcast. Remember, you can always find us on Twitter, at think underscore inclusive, or on the web at think inclusive.us Today's show was produced by myself talking into USB headphones, using a MacBook GarageBand and a Skype account. Bumper music by Eric Niemeyer with the song sepia no more featuring Katy B 07. from Marietta, Georgia. Please join us again on the think inclusive podcast. Thanks for your time and attention
