You're listening to Cubicle to CEO episode 235. You already know financial transparency is a core value of our show. But a topic we haven't really explored until today is the unique but growing experience of being a breadwinning woman, especially in a gender traditional relationship or marriage. According to CBS, 45% of women earn the same or more than their male spouses, almost triple the number from the 1970s of this group 16% Are the breadwinner in their family. So what's it like to navigate these changes while fighting outdated societal standards, I wanted to investigate. And while I recognize that no single person or couple can speak for everyone on such a complex topic, as a breadwinning woman myself, I was excited when today's guest offered to let us into her honest experience of becoming the breadwinner and the impact that had on her marriage.
Karina F. Daves is a relationship coach whose work has amassed 240,000 followers, with her content reaching 25 million views this month alone. While this is a bit different than our usual case study, we still brought a revenue lens to the conversation because as we all have experienced, our personal lives do not operate in a silo from our businesses. Karina shares three ways she's embraced her role as the breadwinner, while reducing money tension in her marriage, and how implementing these simple changes cut arguments with her husband by half. And for extra business income from year two to year three.
Welcome to Cubicle to CEO, the podcast where we ask successful founders and CEOs the business questions you can't google. I'm your host, Ellen Yin. Every Monday go behind the business and a case study style interview with the leading entrepreneur who shares one specific growth strategy they've tested in their own business, exactly how they implemented it, and what the results and revenue were. You'll also hear financially transparent insights from my own journey bootstrapping our media company from a $300 freelance project into millions in revenue.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to the show. We are super excited today to have Karina F. Daves joining us. Karina is a relationship coach. And we're going to be discussing a case study that's a little bit different than what we normally debrief here on the show but still very data forward as you know, we know you guys like that. And it's really a topic of discussion that I think a lot of us have experienced, especially if you're a woman listening to the show, and especially if you're the breadwinner in your family. Entrepreneurship is such a game changer for so many families because it does bring in this source of income that doesn't technically have a ceiling or a cap on it. And that's such a blessing to so many of us but also it brings new challenges into a relationship and the dynamic that you have between you and your partner, whether it's your spouse, a significant other, or perhaps even just within your larger family dynamic between you, your siblings, parents, whatever relationships are central to your life. So Karina, I'm so thrilled that you are here today to share about how you balance being the breadwinner in your family. Thank you for joining us.
Hola amigos. Thank you Ellen for having me. My name is Karina F Daves. I'm a relationship coach and I help women stop arguing with their partners so that they can have more sex, because who doesn't want to have more sex?
I love that. So communication, obviously, is something that's central to all aspects of our life business, relationships, both romantic and, you know, professional. We'll get into a few more of the details of Karina as case study in just a moment. But before we do that, I want to ask you, Karina, your Cubicle to CEO story, please correct me if I'm wrong, you are still working a full time job and building your business on the side with the intention to go full time with your business. And I think that's also a really unique situation that I'd love for our listeners to hear. Because there's many people out there, you know, creating businesses while they're also in a full time position. So what inspired you to want to start a side hustle while still working full time?
Yeah, it's such a great question. And, you know, I remember feeling a bit ashamed of still having a nine to five. And people being very surprised when they would watch my stories and be like, Why are you in New York? Why are you on the train. And so I was actually a social worker in higher ed for over a decade, working particularly in higher ed administration. And during that time, Ellen, I had a very specific goal, which was, I really wanted to, in other words, milk, this cow, which was get as many certificates as I get as I was here, I was also working in a very toxic environment, I was one of the very few women of color leaders. And I knew that I was also on the 10 year forgiveness plan.
So for those of you that may be listening may not know if you work as a social worker, or on the list of different types of positions, you can get your school loans forgiven after 10 years. And so I was like, Karina, 10 years, 10 years, 10 years. Yes, but milk the cow. And so around year, I want to say three or four, I decided to pitch myself to becoming a professor for Women and Gender Studies. And I did I taught for five years, global women's leadership. And that is where I gained a lot of practice on speaking and teaching and just basically being able to work on the fly. Because if you've ever been on a stage or know how to teach or work a room, a lot of it is natural, and just can come on the fly. And during that time, I said to myself, there's something more here like, I really don't think that God put me here to just be in this nine to five. And I'm married to a very sexy black man, who also dreams outside of the nine to five box. And when we got married, his dream was to become a racecar driver. And I was like, that's the stupidiest dream ever. You think it's cool? I thought it was stupid.
But I always admire people who pick really just like out of the box career trajectories. I'm like, Oh, I would never think do that. But good for you.
Yeah, good for you. And so I was like, That's so stupid. Why would you want to do that. And he was like, because we have the privilege to dream outside of these, this box. And as a child of immigrants, I never had that privilege. You only dream within the corporate ladder box, the degree box. And so immediately, we had gone to some race event. And I watched my husband, watch other men live out their dreams. And I was like, I can't be the person that holds him back. So the next day I called our life insurance policy, and I upped his life insurance because that was the way I regulated. Okay. That was the way I could find peace with his dream. And so over the course of about four or five years, I pretty much supported my husband's dreams of becoming a racecar driver. And to fast forward, my husband ended up becoming one of the fastest racecar drivers in the nation, his league, by the way.
And yeah, so he's really cool. He's really popular. He's a cool guy, he has groupies. It's weird. And during that time, he showed me that I was worth more than this nine to five. And I remember going through a lot of emotions, which I know we'll get into of jealousy and thinking to myself, like, well, what am I doing with my life? By about I want to say like year nine of this job, eight or nine, I got pregnant with my son, Levi, and I walked into the office where I am now. And I was praying and I felt God telling me clean up this room because it will be a lab to help many women. And I was like, that's awkward, like what is even allowed me and God like, why can't you be more direct? These are conversations I have. And I hired a painter. I cleaned out the room. I bought a podcast mic and what started out as a podcast, helping to really showcase stories of women and how they navigate the responsibilities of their jobs and businesses and their lives and the relationships turned into a whole business now three years later, so I'll stop there, but that is really the story of how it started.
That is not at all by the way. What I is expecting you to say so I am really thrilled that you shared how this person in your life, one of the most important people in your life, your husband, your partner, was who inspired you to think bigger, dream bigger, I think we all need that person in our lives who can see beyond the potential we see for ourselves. My husband was also very, very supportive. When I chose to leave my nine to five, he encouraged me to do it, even though I didn't have any backup plan. He was like, I know, you, and I believe in you and your character. And so even if you can't see the plan, I know you're gonna figure it out. And so I think that's just so encouraging and so amazing to how you stepped up and really gave him the space and the encouragement and the resources to fulfill his dream as well. So yeah, kudos, I love it. I love that.
And thanks, and even with like, now, I think about your, your question about like, how do I balance that in a nine to five, right? And a lot of people are like, I don't get it. How do you go viral all the time? How do you create amazing content? How do you have a coaching business? How do you do all that you're a mom, and you have this tech job? This doesn't make sense to me. And one of the biggest things is having your biggest cheerleader, be your partner, especially if you're in a marriage, a relationship. That is the game changer. And we can talk about the other things that we have set up in our life of how I balanced all of that. But it that was the number one way that I could do both?
Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, because a recent podcast guest of ours, Noah Kagan, who founded AppSumo, he said something very similar. He said my greatest life hack or best. I don't know if it was like business strategy. But just best strategy is to find a great partner like that is the game changer. That's like the catalyst that makes everything else feel easier or more realistic, right? So I love that, I want to give people a little tease into the numbers around around this case study. So basically, you were working full time in this in this tech job. And then when you started this business, in year one, you made $26,000. For your business, I just want to be clear. For our listeners, this is just the business side, year two $17,000. Then in year three, we see this giant leap from 17,000 to $80,000.
And also for the breadwinner piece. If you take this $80,000 supplementary income and you put it on top of the tech jobs salary, then Karina, at this point in year three, was making four times more than her husband in take home income. And so this is this is kind of again, setting up the scene of this breadwinner role this shift and dynamic right. So what I wanted to ask you first actually is did you notice as you were starting your business as your income was rising? Did you notice a gradual change in your communication and relationship dynamic as these things were happening? Or did it kind of feel like an overnight change where you were like, Whoa, all of a sudden, I feel like we're just on two different islands. What was your experience there?
Such good question. So Terrance and I had been in marriage therapy already, for some time, and we had done a lot of individual therapy. When we were in marriage therapy. Our therapist said to us, y'all don't have a problem with each other. Most of the problems that y'all have with one another has more so to do with your own unhealed trauma than each other. Karina, you're still stuck on your parents divorce and debt and Terrance, you got your own issues, right. And in that moment, I remember thinking like, wow, like, dang, like, we got a lot of individual stuff we got to deal with. And so I became the breadwinner in year two of my business. So it's only been two years, right?
The first year, that transition, my husband was super supportive. And for him, it was so easy, because I had already supported him in his race car journey. And the only thing that came up during that time was I remember him saying, things have been so much faster for you. And I was like, what do you what do you what do you mean by that? And he was like, you just like, it just happens. And I'm like, Honey, you're building like a $40,000 car. And I'm like, just pop it up a video like you cannot compare that. Okay? And so we work through that. And then the second year of my business, the reason why there was a dip is because my baby sister had blood cancer. And so in that year, she was having a bone marrow transplant, and I made the decision in my business, to off board a whole bunch of clients. And I said to myself, What is the best business strategy that I could make right now? I said in year one, I invested in a lot of coaching.
There were a lot of conversations with my partner about investments, right? I was investing in side hustle courses and Tiktok courses and marketing strategies and all this other stuff. And in year two, I said okay, I did a whole year of learning And what can I do this year. And I said to myself, Karina, you're an amazing speaker, you have to let go of what things look like and just focus on the message and helping your people, you know, your people, they're not going to care if you're in the car or at the train station. And so for a whole year, that's all I did was I posted from my car on the train. And I set myself up as the expert going, you know, being having my content shared by Beyonce's mom, DL Hughley by a whole bunch of people that like I would never even know to touch right?
Well, what ended up happening was that then, in the third year, I made this huge comeback. You know, my sister, just for listeners, she's fine. Now, she's great. By the grace of God, she's great survived. Yes. And so in that second year, when I was really setting myself up as the expert, that I think, was the year where the tech income came in, where a lot of things started shifting gradually in my relationship, where there seemed to be this disconnect where it wasn't there before. And that's when my husband came into my office and said, I don't like how this feels, I know exactly what I need to do, I need to go back to therapy, because you cannot help me with this. And that's what I've learned from all of our therapy together. This is a different type of issue. And I don't want to put it on you. So he goes to therapy, in therapy has a breakthrough that he's jealous of me. So what ended up happening was that same little feeling that came up that first year, came up even bigger the second year. And through therapy, he realized that he was seeing me more of an opponent, like a competitor and competing with me rather than my teammate. And that shifted everything for us.
That's a I mean, a huge breakthrough. And I wanted to also ask prior to that, you know, that shift that was very visible that you notice both of you in in year two, and prior to even you becoming the breadwinner? Was Was the income distribution before that pretty equal among the two of you, like were you both contributing pretty? Okay, it was.
Yes, we were neck and neck. And when we got married, Terrance made more than I did. And I remember being like, because my husband didn't go to college, and I have two degrees. I remember thinking like, like, you don't have to go to college, you can make so much money. And so yes, when we got married, he made more than I did. Then by the time I got the tech position, before I got the tech position, we were neck and neck. And the only reason why there is such a big gap right now is because Terrance left his career at Nissan, to support my tech career and to support my business that I'm building, because somebody needed to really, you know, handled more of the mechanics of our marriage, which is the kids and everything else.
Yeah. 100%. And, I mean, such a valid and often undervalued position or role in the family, right? I mean, I think it's becoming more seen the invisible labor that many times that that person in a relationship carries, even with, like the, I guess, normalization of people hiring a person, like a household manager, to manage all the administrative tasks of just staying alive. And you know, living and seeing how so many spouses actually take on that role in an unpaid position. So anyways, totally appreciate your transparency, there was money, a frequent topic of conversation back when you guys were more on an equal playing field with the income? Or was it a rarely broach subject? Regardless.
Terrance and I are hustlers at heart. And so whenever we would discuss money, it wasn't even if we didn't, I mean, we were super broke. We were 25 when we got married, we were we had nothing. And so I think I recognize that our money values and money strategies look different than to individuals who are maybe in their 30s or 40s, and getting together and are very set up, right. And so for us, our finances, everything goes into one pot. And that's because when you think about the history, we had nothing when we got married, right?
So those conversations I would say about money, in the early years had more to do with how do we make more and less to do with we don't have that much we rarely argued about lack of money. We were very innovative in how to make more. And I think about it, this is such a good question. I felt like looking back, that was such an entrepreneurial spirit that we didn't really know we would use later on because now that's how we talk are very much like well, why don't we just broke our mattress how to, you know, broke our bed. How do we pay for that like it worked Just very innovative in the way that we talk about money.
Yeah, no, that is a gift that is a gift because I don't remember the stats. But we've all heard the abysmal stats of like 50% of I think like divorces are caused by a financial issue or or some something rooted in money. And I think having that not having, I should say that lack of mindset, but instead being that problem solver and looking at challenges, like okay, how do we create solutions from this together? I think that's such a gift to have in your marriage. So that's really cool.
Ellen, you know what else to? I feel like I've read that stat. And I feel like couples don't fantasize enough with their money. And think about it. Like even when you're building a business, there are portions of those conversations that you are literally fantasizing, you're calling them strategies, but you're fantasizing, you're talking about your business values. It's the same way with your money values. When's the last time that y'all asked each other? What are your money values? How did you watch money being spent growing up? What do you think is a good thing to spend it on? Right? Like is target a good expense? Things think that, you know, we're not fantasizing enough. And we're not seeing, fantasizing and talking about money values as a business strategy when it really is.
Absolutely. And there are so many, I mean, anyone who's done any work on like, their own money, history and money stories, like you can always see the impacts of how you grew up affecting how you view money and how you carry that with you in the decisions that you make and the conversations you have. So that's a great reminder that it's so important to have those types of conversations with the person that you're building a life with. So excellent reminder there.
I wanted to also kind of circle back to that big jump, that big spike that we saw on income from year two to your three, you mentioned that because of that pivotal conversation that you and Terrance had where he realized, you know, there's something wrong here that I need to address separately, and he went to therapy and realized he was jealous, and, you know, started working on that. And you said that was you know, a big catalyst for that increase in income because you felt finally can't remember the word that you use, but it was like you felt free to be able to pour your energy into the business. Can you expand on that a little bit like was that a subconscious feeling where you felt held back where you felt like you couldn't fully you know, invest in the business, whether that looked like time or money or your energy? Or what what was that change that you noticed once he got clarity around why he was feeling this animosity towards you?
It's exactly what you said, I felt free from having to fix him. And I remember just feeling this weight of responsibility that no longer was mine. And when I think about the ways that we balance me being the breadwinner, Now, part of it is having flexibility for the rainy days, knowing that Terrance is never going to feel 100% Okay, with not being the breadwinner. And I never understood that until he said to me, baby, you don't even want me feeling 100% okay with it. And I was like, What do you mean? And he's like, because I have this desire to always support you to always protect you. And part of that, especially as the male ego and the male identity. And when you think about like the way men are raised in the world, he's like, I'm built to provide, and I don't want that to go away, right. And so having flexibility for the days where he is okay with it, he might be okay with it on Monday, and on Friday, he may be having a sad day, but it's not my job to fix it.
But just having flexibility that the rainy days will be there. And I think that is the shift that happened in that moment that we solved where like, I don't have to show up to fix every single problem, my relationship, some of the issues in my relationship are just his are not all mine.
Yeah, that's really wise. I think discernment. And that kind of carries us right into three of the key things that you guys have implemented in your relationship to manage you know, these these rainy days, if you will, that come up around what is a difficult relationship dynamics sometimes, especially in traditional society. And one thing that really struck me when you were submitting your pitch to us beforehand, I was reviewing and prepping for this interview, you said you cannot fix all of your partner's thoughts because you fall into this trap of becoming their counselor, rather than their partner. And that can result in loss of attraction and increased fighting.
So could you maybe give us some examples of what to you at least in your relationship with parents? What does that fixing behavior look like? What did it used to look like maybe before you came to this realization of oh, I I'm stepping in as a counselor rather than a partner.
1,000%. How I tell my clients is, you will feel like you are their parent versus their partner, you will feel like they have to listen to everything you have to say that your way is the right way that you know everything and not from this place of like, you don't care what they think. But because you're trying to in some way emotionally control the narrative and the outcome, because at the end of the day, your precious business is on the line. And my job and my business was on the line. And I remember feeling that tug of like, dang, like, I just wish he thought this way. I just wish he felt this way. Because if he does, then I can now be creative. And I can now feel free and I can go and make more money. And I remember that pivotal moment being like, I cannot be his everything. Because if I am his everything, there will be absolutely nothing left for me. And that was one of the best also another business strategy that I had, which was like I had to let it go.
And so for me, when I think about the three ways, right the three ways that we really balanced me being the breadwinner. Number one was collaborative communication. Now everybody loves to throw around the word communication, which is great, but communication ain't nothing if there's no comprehension, okay, if people don't really understand what you're saying, you're just talking yourself in circles, okay? And what I mean, when I say collaborative communication, it's the difference between coming to your partner and saying, we're doing this. And that's it. That's non collaborative. And saying to your partner, I'm thinking we should do this, what do you think allowing your partner to have buy in into the conversation, especially if you're the breadwinner, and they already feel like their male ego is being struck, this is a way to have more collaboration and create those moments of like, we're still partners, you still have some buy in, you still are my partner, right? I am not your parent.
And the second thing, which is mainly solving for the I would say a little bit of the mechanics of the relationship and a little bit of the heart is you need support. And so for me, support looks like hiring the four sisters down the block to take care of my kids in rotation. Support means, you know, getting a morning nanny support means having our therapist on deck support means you know, we live an hour and a half away from our family. So we're not the typical couple that can just call our parents to come by. It's not like that our parents don't work. And so support was very important for us.
And then three is being flexible on the rainy days because you will have rainy days. And I think that even in business like not that you don't think rainy days will come but when they do we all freak out. And it's like no flexibility is knowing that they will come flexibilities knowing that they will come and knowing that you got this.
Yeah, it actually reminds me a lot of when I was learning about, you know, rental real estate. And you know, this is a totally different financial income stream or revenue stream that I don't actively play in now, but it's something I'm I've always been very interested in. And one of the things that I remember being taught is when evaluating properties that you potentially want to purchase and then turn into long term rentals, is you need to consider as part of that spreadsheet, a built in buffer of a certain percentage that things will go wrong. Like it's like your rainy day fund. And you can't look at the numbers from this rosy lens like oh, you know, it's going to profit me this much, even if it does for a number of years.
Because you never know when that rainy day comes. And if you already built that into the margins, then it's not really a surprise, right? Like you said, it's like you expect that it was going to happen sometime you just didn't know when. But you already mentally kind of had that approach going it. And so I love that, you know, you guys really approach it from that collaborative angle. And I think one of those collaborative conversations that I would love read illuminate more on is the idea of defining what a head of household is. This was another thing that struck me when I was reading your pitches, this idea that you and Terrance have made your own definition for what Head of Household looks like outside of what society tells you. So can you share for us what your personal definition of that looks like within your family structure?
Sure. And so this relates back to my faith. And what I want to share about my faith really quickly is that we are the one of the most non judgmental Christians you will ever meet. And I always say this, that if I judge you, I can't help you. And if you've ever watched any of my content or watch my husband and I be together, you won't even know like, we're not the type of people that like come to you and we're like Do you believe in God? Do you know if you're going to have like, we're not like that at all. And I think that our heart to serve or our faith really shines through, just like us as people and individuals. And so as we were navigating me being head of household, we had to figure out a strategy that would help regulate some of the tension and regulate also, Terrances' insecurities, right with with what that and I remember, this probably only happened Ellen, like six months ago, this was very recent.
And before we started recording, I said to her, that you know, all of my content, our testimonies, and we only share when we've gotten through things. And so this is something that happened for two years, and we just recently really got through. And so about six months ago, we were having a rainy day. And we were in our kitchen, and I was listening to my husband. And I remember thinking to myself, like, dang, like, I feel so bad. There's nothing I can do to fix this. And these are just a lot of my internal thoughts.
And he stops and he goes, but you know what, like, it doesn't have to be that way. Like, what if, like, God is just a head of our household? And I was like, what? And I was like, What do you mean? And he was like, Honey, who is the head of all of our lives? Like, what do we believe? And I'm like, God is the head of it. And he was like, yeah, so he's like, when I think about it, I think for the next rainy days that are coming, what's going to help me and if you could just partner with me on this, is if we decide together that God is the head of our household, like yes, articles will say you are, you know, everything will say that you are but for just me and you, me and you, babe, at the end of the day, who's the head of our household. And then we were like God, and you don't have to tell the whole world what you and your partner are doing all the time. But there are going to be moments where you create pacts with your partner that, and I know I'm thinking business sense now. But like, it just creates such a high ROI, intimacy in your business money, like it just does when you can create those packs.
Absolutely. And I think you know, it's, it's really interesting hearing you say that, because I'm also, you know, a Christian, I'm also a woman of faith. And so it's really affirming to hear your point of view on how you and your husband have decided together what that looks like in your life in your business. You know, obviously, with our listeners on the show, we serve a wide audience of varied beliefs and varied backgrounds and whatnot, I think a huge takeaway for any of our listeners, whether or not you believe the same things that Karina and Terrance do, or that I do is, again, just being able to define for you in your relationship, what is ultimately the decision maker of what your lives look like. And I think having that conversation is so helpful, because you're right, that even beyond like faith and beliefs, I think, even within the dynamic of two people, because each individual is so unique, there can be such a different state of mind that you're already starting with, right?
Like, I'm just thinking, even as I'm hearing you talk about some of the things that maybe turns your husband has struggled with, I'm thinking about my husband, and Dustin has always, you know, kind of been very different, I would say then then a lot of other maybe men have been conditioned or wired to believe a certain way. He's that person that just has never really been infatuated by like career ambitions, or like, doesn't really have any sort of ego about money in general. And so for him, our dynamic even is very different, because he actually doesn't care about not being the breadwinner, if he was great if he wasn't, he feels no competition around that. And so that's also an interesting dynamic to work through, right, because it looks different for every single family and every single partnership unit.
So I just wanted to kind of add my experience in there too, because what you're sharing is sparking a lot of thoughts for me. And I think what might be helpful to our listeners too, is one thing I know that you said is in addition to identifying for you and your husband, who your head of household is you also created a set of like guidelines or rules that kind of help you, you know, default back to that when there is conflict or when there is a rainy day. So could you give us some examples of what that might look like in your life?
Yeah, you know, we recently got our W-2s. And this is like a real moment. This just happened right? We recently got our W -2s and so when My husband left his career at Nissan, he went to work at Princeton University on the facilities team, and his salary was cut in half. And that was hard on him. And so the W-2 arriving recently was a reminder of that moment. And I remember he opened his and like, mine was also on the table. And I was asking him, like, you know, like, how do you feel? And he was just like, you know, I made the right decision. I don't like the number. He was very honest. He goes, I don't like the number. I made the right decision. And the last thing he said, which really kind of blew my mind a little bit, he said, but I'm working on it.
And I said, What do you mean, he was like, I'm working, not just on me, and this stuff. He said, But I got some stuff up my sleeve, I'm signing up for classes to I'm doing other stuff. I'm working on it. And I was like, oh, and last week, he actually got accepted into a project management certificate program at Princeton, in which he's going to be taking like college credit classes. So for somebody that like, didn't go to college, and now go straight to Princeton, that's a big deal. And I was like, get icecream, we got to celebrate, like, we have, this is a huge deal. And I went to Rutgers in New Jersey, and Princeton is our rival school. Like, it's even better, like we're going to rival school. So it was just such a moment. And so I would say like, that's one example of how it shows up. And to be honest with you, Ellen, like that conversation could have been sour, right? Like, we could have just sat there and been really sad about what this was. But instead, he chose to look at the other prospects that are happening in his life, versus just focusing on the number.
Yeah, again, that solutions oriented mindset can really make all the difference. And I love that you showed up as his wife to encourage him to really celebrate this huge achievement for him, especially like you said, given his background, and having not experienced college, the traditional way, I feel like that brings up another great, you know, point of how you guys have balanced this breadwinner dynamic in your relationship. And you mentioned, you know, ahead of this interview, it's reminding your partner that you do want to be with them and building excitement and confidence in them.
And so, again, I keep asking for examples, but it's just because I know our listeners really like tangible kind of ideas for how they can implement this in their own relationships, whatever that may look like for them. What are some of your favorite ways to instill confidence in your husband and vice versa, that he has instill confidence in you? It could be money related and in terms of that breadwinner dynamic, but it could also be like, what are some ways you're celebrating each other outside of the confinements of money in numbers?
Okay, this is gonna blow everybody's mind. It is the most simplest thing I do. And I love doing it. I flirt so hard. So hard with my husband. My husband walks into the room, I flirt with him. He has a promotion at work. I flirt with him. His W-2s arrive, I flirt with him, like I flirt so hard. And I wake up earlier. So I wake up around 430 In the morning, which is wow. But yes. So I wake up early. And he usually comes down the stairs around like, I don't know, 5:20 5:15.
Gosh, that's still so early.
Yeah, it's still early. Yeah. So I'm in charge, just to give you a little bit of like snapshot of our lives. I am in charge of breakfast, and I don't believe in cereal anymore. So I make omelets. I make a whole spread. I'm totally spoiling my kids. And then he comes down and he's in charge of snacks and getting our kids ready in the morning. Like my train comes earlier. And so when he comes down, he has like one eye open. I've already been awake for 30 minutes. So I'm on fire. I'm like Good morning, you sexy black that like I'm just so like all over him. And I think I don't only do that because I do desire him.
But what a better way to feel wanted. And here's the other thing. I don't want anybody else, giving my partner more praise and more attention than I do. And I think you know, that's a whole different episode. But that is that that can happen. And I know that I'm afraid of it. But I just I want that's why we were married, right? Like that's why we started this whole thing. Like we started by kissing and doing all these other things like why do those things have to stop? So for me, my secret weapon is I flirt hard.
I love that. It's such like you said it's such a simple suggestion, but it does take an active consciousness about it right a choice in that okay, because, I mean it takes a little extra effort. It's like, okay, I got to really think about like, how am I being engaging, I guess in the conversation, but you're right. It's no different than when you first meet someone like, it comes naturally. Because you want to give them your attention. You want to, you know, engage them in that fun way. And so I love that reminder. That is awesome. What about on the reverse side? Like, what are some ways that he really supports and loves on you?
Oh, see, my husband knows I love food. And yes, he knows I love food. And God has blessed me with a man that cooks better than me. And I'm amazing chef, and he somehow beats me. He's great. And so for me, he knows my love language is food. And, and, and I don't necessarily like sweets, but I like coffee ice cream. This is very detailed.
Thats a good flavor of ice cream, by the way, yeah.
It's my favorite flavor. And he also knows that like if I'm ever really sad, that the meal that I need is chicken wings with fried rice and a coke and I don't drink soda. And that's when I'm sad. That's what I need. And he's the type of person that for example, on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, I have to commute to the city for work. So those are the days that he knows I'm coming home late. He'll have the food in the microwave ready for me, or I'll come in, I'll rush like, oh, I have a call, I'll get on the call. And you'll hear like a little knock at the door with like a plate of food. And he's like, hey, just in case, you know, because people don't really care if you're eating on the Zoom and things of that nature.
And so for him, that's the way he really supports me because he knows how important it is for me to. And I know it seems small? Yeah. And he doesn't even have to cook it. If he ordered it, I would be fine, too. I just, that's his way of supporting me.
Yeah, I mean, it's really that thoughtfulness that counts. And food is I mean, healing for the soul, let's let the reason it's called comfort food, right? Like, what makes you feel better when you're in your down spot. And I love that my husband's also very much supportive. And like he literally keeps me fed. Because otherwise I would just, I would just go hours and hours without you know, eating because I'm so in my zone. So absolutely appreciate a husband that feeds, feeds.
And I actually I think you brought up something I didn't even think to ask at the beginning of this interview. But now that you are talking about like, Oh, your morning routine, like I take care of breakfast, and then he takes care of snacks for the kids and whatnot. How does that division of household labor look within your situation? Because I think when again, if we're talking about traditional societal roles, right, even if you remove the gender piece from it, who typically traditionally, whoever is the breadwinner, doesn't engage as much I feel like in housework, because it's like, okay, you're providing for us financially, I'm providing for us through the home and whatever that looks like. So traditionally, it seems that division of labor has been kind of skewed one way or the other. How do you guys approach it? Do you still do household chores and tasks and child giving equally? Or is it kind of, like, how do you divvy that out?
Yeah, I got you. So when we first got married, I asked my husband, well, before we got married, I said, Listen, like I'm Latina. I know you're black. I'm just wondering, like, how do you see stuff in the household and taking care of kids? And he's like, I have three sisters. And I was like, oh, then he's like, yeah, I do everything. Like if you ever even need if you're ever on your period, and you need stuff, like I'm not embarrassed to like go get stuff for you. Like, I mean, these are like serious conversations to have before but we just don't have them. And I was like, okay, and I was like, so the way that I think about it. And this is like I always say Terrance is very street smart. And I'm booksmart and so the way I said it, I was like, Okay, so we're gonna have an equal opportunity household, okay. Okay, he's like, whatever you want to call it, I'm in and I was like, Okay, so when Terrance, I would say the first like, two, three years, there was an equal division. When he started building his race car, there just wasn't right. He was working a lot of nights and weekends to fund his dream and his race car.
And so it was more so on me. And then there was this period where when we moved, it became a little bit more equal for about a year or two. And then by the time that I started the tech job, which is now like, it's not the division of labor is not 50/50. And it's more so on him. But I will say that we have had in the beginning of our relationships, so many arguments about dishes in the laundry. And what we've realized is that 99% of the time, even though you're arguing about the dishes in the laundry, that's not really the problem. And because we did that work early on, it really helped us right now. So I wish I could take you to my dining room where there are six loads of freshly washed and dried clothes ready for me to fold. So he washes and dries, well, the washer does that he collects it. And I fold it in and he puts it away. And that's just what we do. And he's in charge of most of the cooking. And then on the weekends, I chime in, I also want to point out that my job requires me to travel often. So in my position, I'm in charge of all of the Americas, which includes Latam. And so for example, at the end of this month, I have to travel back to Brazil for a week. And during that time, I mean, it's all about strategy. Like I know what my husband needs. Not only does he need support, he needs coverage, he needs time to also be himself. So I will have somebody come in to give him half the day or the day off. So he could go and do something. And yeah, that's I don't know if that answers the question. Does that help?
It does, it does and I laughed at the Equal Opportunity household because I love that I love that stance. And I think too, like oftentimes, people divide labor based on what is the word like time, but like time and finances, but not not always by strength, which I think is like a very myth component, right? Because I mean, ideally, just like in a business, you want to optimize people's strengths. You don't want them to be doing tasks and work that doesn't necessarily move the needle, I guess, in whatever way that looks like in a business and life. And so I think that's just another add on thought that kind of sparked for me, as you were discussing this, I think to wrap up our case study here, too.
I wanted to circle back to the thing about fixing versus, you know, allowing them to seek counsel elsewhere. This question came up for me. And I felt like I needed to ask, how do you identify the difference between a situation in which you do need to step in as their partner and help them work through it together versus when you need to step back? And let them you know, work on this on their own? With the support of outside counsel? How do you start to discern and identify those things? Because I can imagine and especially, you know, I'm just I guess reflecting on myself right now, like, I'm a natural, like many women are, I'm a natural fixer. If I see something that could be fixed, I want to jump in and help someone. And also I am, you know, very particular about the way I like things done. And so, because of that, it can be hard if you've been in a lifelong habit or pattern of that, to really identify, is this something that I should or can help with? Or is this something that they would be better equipped? If I actually removed myself from the situation? How have you discerned that?
So good. So this morning, I actually created content about how I was programmed to fix, especially as a daughter of immigrants, I was programmed to interpret, to fill out paperwork to do things all the time, I was programmed to figure out answers without Google, like, that is the program that I'm in I am hyper independent, right? Then you send this to college. And then you're like, whoa, and I just woke up. And I was like, even more hyper independent, I was even more of a hustler juggling school and multiple jobs. And so even though I desired to be married, and be in a relationship with Terrance, that hyper independence was so programmed in me, that it shifted into fixing and wanting to control the outcome.
And so I say that because for any of the listeners that are hearing this, I want you to give yourself grace in this moment, and knowing that, that identity of you, it did serve you it was created for a purpose, right? But now your partner's here, now you have somebody now, there's somebody else in the picture. Now you all can have that opportunity to work together and I know I hear you, but he or she doesn't do things the way I want them to happen. Like I just like things are particular way 1,000%. But you need to be flexible in partnering and teaching that because every single time that you fix it, you are robbing your partner of the opportunity to understand and create the habit of doing things now our way that is the biggest thing is one give yourself grace. And to understand that the more flexible you are, the more they'll understand and the more that y'all will be a team.
I love that. That is such a beautiful approach the delineation between okay, this was my way based on the life that I lived but now this is our way and understand and live that out to the second piece of of the question of when to distinguish between, this is an opportunity to, you know, teach and to do things our way versus this is an opportunity for me to remove myself and let them journey this solo or help with outside counsel, how do you identify those two situations and tell them apart?
Very simple. Go to the source, which is your partner and ask them? Do you need me? What can I do before you give your entire 90 day plan of how to overcome whatever issue they're going through? Because that's how we're wired. As entrepreneurs, we're like, in 90 days, I got you, we're gonna do this, this and this, we're gonna hire this support, we're gonna do this, go to the source, and ask them, What do you need? What do you need? What would How would you? What would you like me to do? How do you need me? You know, I got a whole bunch of tricks up back here. I got you. Do you need me? What capacity? Do you need me? Do you need me heavy handed, left handed hand holding? What do you need? I got you. I'm here. But but you have to decide. They have to decide. That's how they start to take ownership. That's how they start to develop into their own identity. And their identity can be still individualized, like they can still show up as an individual person in the relationship versus like, it just always be meshed with you having to fix it.
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the timing of our conversation is so wild, Karina, because I literally just read on like a Facebook thread the other day, and I don't remember who the original poster was, or who chimed in with this comment. But it really stood out to me. It was this idea that like, sometimes people want to share something just because they want to share something. And like you said, instead of immediately assuming Oh, they're asking for my help, asking them I think whoever said it was like the three H's. Like ask them, Do you want to be heard? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be helped? Right?
Because sometimes it's like, sometimes we just need a space to vent. Sometimes people want the comfort of a hug. And that's it. And sometimes it's like, no, I actually am looking for your advice. So I think I don't know why even hearing you say that's like duh, right? Like, you just want to ask them when give them the autonomy to choose, do they need your help or not? But it's so easy to overlook that, like you said, when you have the identity of a fixer, so super appreciate that. This has been such an enlightening conversation. For me personally, I hope. You know, as you continue to share this testimony, like you said, like this thing that you and Terrance have worked through over the last two years that more lives are impacted by your story and seeing you walk something different than maybe what traditional society tells us about what being a breadwinner in a family looks like.
If this conversation has touched your heart in any way as you're listening or you thought of something new or you have an additional question you want to ask Karina? Karina, where can people connect with you and say hi?
Thank you so much. So I primarily live on Instagram and Tiktok my handle is Karina F as in Frank Daves, if you go to tick tock, just do not engage with the comments are a lot more spicier there. Okay. And if you're watching, yeah, warning, if you're interested in working together, in order to stop arguing and have more sex, you can go to the link in my bio on Instagram or my website, karinafdaves.com and book a sales call.
And the last thing I'll say is, first of all, thank you, Ellen, for having me on here. I know that this was a different type of topic. And I think we did a really You did a really good job of marrying data and the case study and this and so thank you for having me on here. The last thing I'll say to anybody that's listening is what I tell my clients is listen, when you do this work, you're either going to grow together or you're going to grow apart, but you will grow and that is the goal. That is a goal to just grow. Okay, so as whatever story or whatever moment you have right now that's on your heart as you're listening to this, just remember that either way you'll grow.
Such an encouraging word to end on. Thank you so much, Karina, for your time and your story today.
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