The AR Show: Eric Marcellin-Dibon and Mark Prince (MicroOLED) on Developing AR Glasses for Athletes Using Innovative OLED Displays

6:44PM Nov 7, 2022

Speakers:

Jason McDowall

Eric Marcellin-Dibon

Mark Prince

Keywords:

display

oled

product

people

technology

eyewear

market

glasses

brightness

micro

application

company

garmin

power

power consumption

athletes

ar

eric

cyclists

connect

Welcome to the AR show where I dive deep into augmented reality with a focus on the technology, the use cases and the people behind them. I'm your host Jason McDowall. Today's conversation is with Eric Marcellin-Dibon, the co founder and CEO of MicroOLED and Mark Prince, the general manager for the ENGO product line. MicroOLED is a company that develops high performance OLED microdisplays for near to eye applications. Power, efficiency and brightness are two areas where they excel, and the company is bringing that display technology to life through the ENGO Eyewear product line.

Eric studied physics, optics and electronics in grad school before working in visual systems for defense contractor tails. He then went on to work at what is today named Technicolor. But back then was Thomson, on imager technologies and strategic sourcing the company micro led grew out of the work at Thomson Technicolor.

Mark spent the majority of his career in sales and marketing, initially in the ski industry and then in technology and connected devices. Recent experiences include head of retail for Nokia health, VP of consumer business for Wii things, and CEO of Qardio a health monitoring technology company. Now he's the general manager of the ENGO product line and the Chief Business Officer of MicroOLED. In this conversation, we discuss how MicroOLED competes against Sony as well as their initial focus for the end goal product line. More generally, Eric talks about his perspective on what will enable AR glasses to achieve mass adoption,

just a few grams make the difference, not only you know the way to burn to size, the eyewear industry, the fashion industry, so eyewear needs to be comfortable, and it needs to look good. So you want the technology to disappear. So you need to make something which is very small, very compact. And if you have higher power consumption, you have a larger battery. So larger batteries more weight, and is more you know, cubic centimeter, you know, and then it's really difficult to embed, you know, in the frame or to let's say, integrate into the eyewear. And then then the issue that you your product looks like a kind of technology product and not really like an eyewear,

We go on to discuss the concept of light AR the thinking behind the full stack platform offered by MicroOLED called ActiveLook and their go to market strategy. We also discuss the types of early use cases that will motivate users to buy. You can find all the show notes at the AR show.com and become a patron at patreon.com/the AR show. Let's dive in.

Eric, how does your love of music connected to being an entrepreneur?

I am from South of France, I I love the music, I play the music as well, you know, I play wind instruments or saxophone I play the flute. And I like very much to listen to music. And I like always to make the connection, you know, between the music and what I'm doing at work. Because you know, when you when you play, you know, for instance, a wind instrument, you know, it comes from your from your stomach, you know, and so it's key, so you need to have a lot of conviction. And I think it's very similar to to what I do every day, you know, at work. And you need to listen as well, you know, the people when you play with somebody, it's a bit of the same. So I have to make that connection, you know, I have to when I speak to my team, me time to act, make the connection with the music or with things that I lacked. So it's not something specific, but it's quite strong. For me,

that's pretty amazing. I love that I love that connection. So this idea that it has to come from deep inside of you, you have to have the conviction or to make it sound well you have to listen to your collaborative group. I guess if you're trying to create truly a symphony together all these are elements that you tie between music and running a company or running a team. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that

you can sync a lot of connection between the way you need to play the music and the way you know we work. We worked together the way you manage your project the way you talk to your team or you talk to individual Yeah. And I like always, you know, to ask that type of question.

In what way does it for you connect to the way that you communicate with your teammates?

Oh, because, you know, for me, it's always easier, you know, when I tried to connect to something that I like, you know, so I can give you an example. You know, if I pick a you know, I am preparing a presentation as of today, you know, for meeting for the company while but when other people in the company. So I know what I want to talk about. But I start to make the connection with things that I like. So it can be music, sometimes I did it with music, sometimes it could be some picture. And I'm you know, to some picture just in relation to what I want to explain something which has nothing to do with with a work, you know, for instance, so that's something that I like very much.

Yeah. mazing. And so Eric, you want to jump into this conversation around the technology on the other side of the company, I guess and the project and team work that you're working on here. is around creating a tremendous number of innovations around display technology and optical modules and, and how you deliver all of that technology in the context of wearable displays, AR glasses and and some other use cases as well. But I'm really curious to hear how your experiences that preceded micro OLED as a company how those experiences at Thomson Technicolor that led you to create a company focused on micro OLED technology.

Yeah, actually, I started working at Thomson Technicolor, you know, back in the early 90s. And that was on HGTV at that time. And so I had the chance to create a lab on HD projection. So that was very exciting time. And then I spent most of my career working in the field of display, from LCD to a cause projection system and OLED display. In different function, you know, starting from the research to the product development to the strategy. And in the earlier to Southern, I was in charge of the strategy for the Display business unit. Another time, we are working together with with my partner, you know, Guto is the co founder of the company, and we're working on OLED, but OLED on glass panels, so for large size panel, and this is where we started to develop the technology. But then, you know, after a few years strategy of the company changed quite a lot. And so we decided, and we suggested the Thompson to spin off the red team, because we develop quite a specific OLED technology. And we wanted to focus on micro displays. So that was our proposal because it was, you know, in the early times of the of the first iPad, you remember the iPad with the turning wheel. And so our vision of the system that, you know, one of these days, you will have all of your content, the movies, the music, the games, you know, on a very small iPad, and that you will watch you know, the movies and play games, you know, through video glasses. So that was the you know, the initial stage of the company. But at the end, it did not happen very this way, then we just decided to start the company 2007 And the video blast business did not really materialize at that time. So So we developed the company in different markets, you know, in viewfinder for camera was you know, in sport optics, in the security market, always reserved for crews as well, you know, on the on the either video glass or or eyewear. And let's say that eyeglass, you know, even at the early stage of the company, we we were thinking, you know, we're doing that eyeglass for that type of application.

So really from the outset, you kind of foresaw that there has to be some companion device at that time. The obvious one was the iPod, connected to a pair of video glasses in which people were consuming a variety of different content. You really Yeah, looking deep into the future at that point, certainly given where the market was then. And then you know that you found other markets that were riper and fresher and more ready for that sort of technology, as it related to developing the micro OLED technology itself. What were some of the early challenges that you face that maybe they'd be we're different from what others were were approaching against or how they're approaching the problem?

Yeah, it's true that actually, we started the company in 2007. And the early challenges for OLED microdisplay were cost and picture quality. You know, at the time, it was in direct competition with HD microdisplay, which were you know, widely used in camera viewfinder, so or camcorders. And so we at that time, we developed a specific OLED technology, which is working at low voltage. And so the benefit is that because you have low driving voltage, you can make a very small pixel pitch. And so you can achieve a micro display with a very high pixel density. We achieve at that time, you know, the smallest pixel pitch, and always with very low power consumption because of the robotics. So that was another advantage. And in addition to that, we started three took us about four years, you know, to be the first prototype, and then we've been installing our production line in 2011. And we started really the production at that time. And all manufacturing was quite efficient because we were the only one at that time to be able to address the consumer market because one of the first customer was Panasonic's, you know, with a unique camera, but also the Zeiss video lessons, you know, compared to the competition where they were mostly on the you know, or if I'm talking about the audit microdisplay they were mostly on the defense application, where we succeeded to start the business with consumer application. So we were serving in a way you know, the picture quality because we are the super picture of it. And this is how we convinced you know, brands at the time, such as Zeiss, Panasonic and so on. And this is where we started the business.

So the cost benefit really came from the fact that you were able to capture those early consumer oriented companies have the scale the benefit of scale, they're able to deliver large enough volumes that the cost made more sense, are there other elements,

you know, not only the benefit of the scale, because you know, before to get the benefit of the scale, you need to go to very high, very large volume, but mostly the efficiency of the manufacturing, because, you know, at the early stage, in the early two, sudden the yield for manufacturing overhead was quite difficult. And so it's because we have developed, you know, quite efficient technology, and which was, would not say, easy to manufacture, but with a good, you know, good efficiency in terms of manufacturing, that you could reach, you know, a cost, which is compatible with consumer application.

Got it makes sense. And so, the other name we know, today, or I know, today, and then micro, all that market is Sony, they've been also innovating in this direction on how to deliver these things at reasonable quality and attempting to make it at a reasonable price. How do you distinguish the approach the technical approach, maybe or the manufacturing approach you've taken relative to what Sony is doing, or has done,

I think the picture quality that we achieve, I mean, Sony, and others, by the way, is very good, you know, for or it may codependency is key for that type of application when you use it in viewfinder. So Sony, of course, you know, is a tough competitor, you know, they're not quite strong, but in a way, you know, it's a good thing for us, because they're also driving the, the market. And I will say that, well, let's say a neck and neck with Sony on the picture quality on the pixel density. But we still have a, you know, very strong advantage on the power consumption. For instance, I compare, you know, current two point 19 inch, or the micro display to the equivalent display in Sunni, or power consumption is about 30 times less. And the other advantage that we have in our microdisplay, that you can connect directly to microcontroller, you don't need any driving chip, you can connect directly with SPI. And so you get a solution, which is very efficient. Of course, this is a strong company, but we have a lot of technical advantage, and mostly in the power consumption and picture quality. I will say brightness as well, because did I hear you? Right? 30? Yes, at the time says that's great. Yeah,

the reason is less is hugely significant. Factor multiple, especially when we're talking about creating something that makes sense in a pair of glasses.

Yeah, especially. And basically, it's because we have a different approach than Sunni, you know, Sunni is really a component because it's part of the component division of Sunni so, so they have, let's say, a display roadmap, you know, on our side is different, you know, we think at the use case, we think at the application, and we go back to the specification of the micro display. For instance, if you make micro display for night vision application for for the difference, the advantage that you will look at the micro display, I mean, the benefit that we look at the micro display are going to be different from what we do for for nightwear for AI, where if you do something for an AI augmented reality, power consumption is cheap. If you do something for night vision, the picture quality will be key because the picture quality will be you know the distance of detection, you need to have a very high picture quality display, which has a better picture quality than the sensor to be sure that your system is good. If you do something for AI, you will focus mostly according to me, you will really focus on power consumption and brightness, of course, you need to get the brightness anyway, brightness, you need to assume that you have the brightness, and then you need to have the minimum

consumption. Let's jump on that in two different directions in terms of power consumption. can you articulate why it's so important within the context of a wearable display or AR glasses to really emphasize power consumption?

Because you know, I was an accessory and then which needs to be comfortable not well, you know, so when you over your glasses on your nose, you can only bear 3040 grams, but you cannot go to 5060 or 70 grams that's too heavy. If you look at the average weight of a friend, it's typically in the in the 2530 grams and it goes through to 4045 grams so so you cannot go to 50 grams, just a few grams makes a difference. Not only you know the weight, but the size, the eyewear industry, the fashion industry, so I well needs to be comfortable, and it needs to look good. So you want the technology to disappear. So you need to make something which is very small, very compact. And if we're higher power consumption, you have a larger battery. So larger batteries more weight and is more you know, cubic centimeter you know and then it's really difficult to me bed, you know in the frame or to let's say, integrate into the eyewear. And then then the issue that your your product looks like a kind of technology product and not really like an eyewear. So this is a way we've been thinking the product. And that by the way, we use lenses which are, you know, don't doubt shape lenses for for sport eyewear,

we'll definitely come back and kind of explore some of the use cases and the overall architecture of the system. But as it relates to this one big challenge, one big critique that many have had of the potential of OLED over the last many years is that it's hard to make it bright, it's hard to make it truly bright, especially bright enough to be used outside, in bright daylight in an augmented reality context as well, because you're often looking through the displayed image at the real world. How is it that you have approached the brightness problem within OLED and micro Ludy. In particular, in matches against the longevity challenges that also come often with organic LEDs, my basic understanding is that the harder you drive these, these o LEDs, the less the longevity, or you can make it right. But to make it right and last a long time, the combination of those two things is extra hard.

Yeah, it is always difficult, you know, to have a very high brightness with OLED microdisplay. However, we have been working on that technology, you know, for the past 10 years, and we succeeded to develop an OLED start, which is very efficient. So still working at very low power, but while you get better extraction of the photons, so better light extraction. And so to get very high brightness. So for instance, I was talking about the micro display that were using eyewear as of today. So it was only a few million milliwatts. So typically one milli watt. In terms of power consumption, you don't need additional driver, and the brightness that you get from the already can go from 12 to 15, to 20k, in brightness. And that's good enough, you know, when you are outside, you can even look in the, in the bright sunshine, close to the sun, and you will see see the image. So of course, you need to reach a certain level of brightness, it's key. But what is more important at that time is also to to get very low power consumption. The other point is that you don't want to use an optical system, which has a very low efficiency, you know, that's why you need to think at the system level, not only at the display, because, you know, I think that one of the mistakes that we see in the industry that the chooses some optical system, which has very low efficiency, and so it's putting all the stress on the display. And at the end, you are just you know, making the issue bigger because then whatever if you use LCD or OLED, you will increase the power. And so at the end, you get something which is too bulky, or too heavy. Now, if I come back, you know, to to the LED will lead the discussion. I think, you know, there's a wrong perception the industry here, because we think that we can do it with OLED. And by the way, this is where it's what we do, as of today, we have very low power and we have high brightness. And that was very well you know, in full day in full sunshine day. The issue with the LED you know the quantum efficiency of the LED is very similar to the quantum efficiency of the red you are in the same range. Even if you look at the red color, the quantum efficiency of the of the LED will be lower compared to the OLED. But the big issue with the LED is that you need to drive to LED in PWM so, it needs you need to address very quickly you know, the your electronics to drive the LED need to be very fast. And so, we use a lot of power. So there is no way there is no technical way for the LED to be as efficient in power compared to OLED and it's going to be even worse, when you will increase the resolution. So let's say as of today, you know we focus on light AR you know a small field of view, limited resolution, but then maybe one of these days you will increase the field of view increase the resolution and the advantage of OLED versus led in terms of power consumption efficiency will be much higher. Because if you see the you know dragged you in organic LED in PWM mode so that we seem very quick to having system you know you will be at 100 200 milli watt and then it's dead you know, to make an eyewear it's going to be too bulky, you will get a battery which is you know, you know, big and so it's completely different. So I think that the AI industry as of today A is looking at the problem from a wrong angle, you know, they are looking, you know, they say, Okay, I want to waveguide it needs to be flat, and it has very optical efficiency. So I need to have very high brightness display. So I go to LED, and nobody's talking about the power the end, and nobody's talking about the weight and the integration. And so we were in that circle where it's going the wrong direction. And by the way, you can see that already, some large companies are moving in, I think that distribution is already. And this is true, because you can, you know, we did a lot of progress in terms of efficiency of lighting efficiency, so for you can get to much higher brightness with less electrons. And this is improving, you know, every year because you you get new materials, you know, from the chemical companies. And we always work on the design of the OLED, you know, to get better light extraction. So I think that is, you know, that is a wrong perception as of today, from the AI industry, where they're going in that brightness direction, where the key issue is not the brightness, you need to look at the system. And the key issue is a weight, the weight and integration, which is power,

as long as you can hit that brightness threshold, the thing that is most important is the weight, the wearability, of course, yeah. Can you share some of the numbers in terms of you'd mentioned that brightness, you're able to achieve 1215 20,000 nits off of the panel? Is that right?

Yeah, that's correct. And then the power consumption will depend a little bit of your you know, what you display, but it's going to be typically in the in a one to three milli watt. So almost nothing, almost nothing. And because you don't need the driver behind, you can directly connect to and this is what we do in our glasses, we connect directly, you know, to the, to the microcontroller with Bluetooth, and you have a very minimal footprint in terms of power.

So is the then the back of the display chip, basically the controller that you need. So you just input the the standard sort of, this is what we want the image to be into the backlit display, and the display interprets that and drives each pixel accordingly.

That's correct. Yeah. So so the innovation is in the OLED design, because in the OLED design, you need to get a very good, you know, efficiency. So in terms of conversion from electrons to photons, to to reach the brightness that you need. And the innovation is also you know, in the chip design, because we do operate on silicon. And so we embed in the silicon, or the innovation in order to reduce, you know, the power consumption.

You taught at the outset, when you had started the company, the market for video glasses, or AR glasses wasn't there yet. And so you turn to other opportunities around eyepieces, and camera systems, or might vision systems or other sorts of systems that that did have a market already did have a need, given where you are today and given now that we're gonna be talking about some of the, the sports glasses sort of use cases in this concept around AR? Is you kind of go looking forward from today, what is the go to market strategy that you have? How are you thinking about rolling out this kind of core innovation that you've gotten around the OLED, micro OLED technology into products that, you know, the average person might end up buying? will end up buying? Yeah,

okay, so really on our core business, where we manufacture micro display, and we say micro display to integrators, as you say, you know, for, for integrating IPCC is a core business and that business is, you know, a growing market already, and we are in the 20, neon 20 plus million euro cells, and we sell on microdisplay, you know, around the world. And then, of course, you know, the way to develop the augmented reality market is somewhat different. So, of course, we are in continuous contact with the people, you know, developing a mounted reality from a display point of view, and they're, they're always, you know, testing or integrating or micro display. But on the other end, we have our own vision on how to develop the market, because we're convinced that the market will start you know, with will not only start will develop with light AR so let's say that, you you bring information in the field of view of the user, in the wild, seen in the real world, but you bring information, which could be for sport, which could be for navigation, which could be for plenty of application in the field of the user. And what I realized, you know, when we saw the different attempts, you know, from from all the big guys, you know, there are very much technology focused trying to embed everything in the glasses again, doing Wi Fi, voice recognition. And that was not our vision, our vision is really you know, the augmented reality in a way it has to be an eyewear. And so if it is an eyewear, it that looks good. It's not you know, as I say the technology should disappear, you know, the user outside should not see that you are wearing an eyewear with some augmented reality information. So, so that's key. So that's why we really focus on that way. And we optimize or the system, because if you want to make a system which is compact, low power, you need to have an optical system which is efficient, you need to have a micro display, which is efficient, you need to have a way of communicating which is very efficient. So active look, this is not only the module, active look is a hardware, of course. So it's the display, integrating with the optics, integrating with electronics, you know, communicating with a mobile phone, or communicating with a watch, for instance. But I keep look, it's also you know, a way of communicating in order to reduce the power again, and I keep on top of that, it's also an open platform because of you was ready to develop the motto, read the market. And for that you need to be according to me, you need to be open, you need to leave the flexibility to the eyewear manufacturer to to develop eyewear with their own brand, with their own look and feel, you need to give the possibility to the app developer or to the device manufacturer, such as a watch manufacturer or a mobile phone to send data directly to the glasses. So that's why active route does three ingredient really the hardware module, the open platform, and the way of the communication together with the application,

very thoughtful about how you're putting together necessary ingredients to allow this to be broadly adopted not only by the brand's you more directly influenced, but also by other by other brands as well. I'm going to shift a little bit here to mark maybe we can kind of take a step backwards in order to kind of understand where we are today hear you, yourself have a very long history in working with connected smart devices. For you what excites you about the sort of general idea of connected technology of making some sort of device connect and talk to some other sort of device.

Thank you. So in my past that little over 20 years ago, I worked for an innovation consultancy that helped a spin off of MIT create an early VGA display is micro optical Corporation. And this is sort of when people were first like late 90s iMac was coming out of personal computer wave was still underway. We hadn't quite that into mass adoption of mobile devices yet or even connected devices in general, the people were still connecting to the internet modems. And suddenly, there was this heads up display that could do anything, you could clip it onto glasses, the company that I worked for, built the developer's kit, and I had a chance to wear one to Comdex something like 1999. And I was inundated with people saying what is that? What's that on your glasses, immediately being fascinated by this. And so for me, it's been 20 years of thinking about how to bring that experience forward in a way that people are not just interested in, not just wanting to demo, but actually wanting to use after the demo. And so I've seen in the video game category and a couple of other categories that I've been in that there's there's always an interested demo. And there's always that tech lover early adopter, that that will be all in wants to go first. But like everybody else in this community of XR, also sort of seeing that mass adoption, in general interest after that first demo is sometimes a bit weak. So to really answer your question, what is it about connected devices, it's that they give us powers, when they really work for us. They enable us to do things faster, better, smarter, they enable us to do some things that we couldn't do without them. Whether it's eliminating an extra click some repetitive action, some extra step that we have to take in the kitchen in the car, for allowing us to be in touch with the people who we love in a place where we normally wouldn't. It's giving us powers. It's true for Bluetooth audio. It's true for the smartphone in general. It's so many things that we can do today that we could not do 20 years ago, are coming from connected devices. I can no you know, I worked with another MIT spin off called ambient devices. It was that's a pre Internet of Things company. And the idea was information everywhere information at a glance, frictionless information. We could look at a stock market ticker or a sports scoreboard or weather forecaster and instantly know whatever that is. affirmation was that we wanted without having to go to the radio and wait 10 minutes for the weather segment to come up or go on a 14k modem and wait five minutes to get to weather.com. All of those sort of repetitive slow activities to just get an answer went away, when connected devices started to become real ambient was one of the first companies that helped do that. And I still feel that novelty, but also empowerment from connected devices that we're working on today like AR and xr in general type products, that will allow people to do things hands free, without repetitive navigation with instant frictionless access to whatever it is they need. It's kind of exciting. It's it's always been really personally rewarding to be to be working alongside great inventors and engineers like Eric, who helped make this stuff happen.

And what is Endo? How does that connect to the broader strategy of micro LED technology in this active look platform that Eric talked about?

Sure. So Eric spoke a bit about having an open platform. And so we've got a number of partners who are working with the active platform today, both app partners and device partners. But anko is micro LEDs own initiative to provide a demonstration product, it shows how far we can push it for a couple of applications. So we assume that there will be a whole range of specialty use cases. And we're an active dialogue with a number of partners and various verticals. But for runners and cyclists to groups that we identify that can potentially benefit from real time data, we wanted to create a product that was able to demonstrate all of the attributes that Eric's been talking about really long battery life, and really lightweight. And so there have been a number of excellent attempts from other innovators to bring, we'll call it like AR solutions to athletes. Garmin Bahria, now discontinued, every state Raptor, which I believe is discontinued, solos, smartglasses. Recon, which I think was for a time associated with Intel are acquired by Intel. And as Eric mentioned, they're all, you know, north of 50 grams, maybe they have three or four hours of battery life. They're, in some cases, asymmetrical and unbalanced, which is an intrinsic problem for athletes, the one that is balanced is extremely heavy, you know, really no different endurance event. What we're doing is coming into this category and saying, Okay, what are the market requirements? Okay, lightweight, long battery life, great brightness and ambient daylight, and demonstrating that we can deliver it. In some ways, the endo product is revolutionary. It's complete breakthrough. Nothing's been done with these attributes before. But there have been a number of attempts that just haven't met the basic requirements. And so what why are we doing in NGO, it's to prove that it can be done, and on another level to also prove that there's a market fit, and a use case that demonstrates the value. So another piece of NGO that we don't talk about enough and XR, and in my 20 year context of looking at this thinking about, well, what are those hurdles to mass adoption is price point, it's just price elasticity. And so not only do we have sort of so many firsts in terms of market fit, or meeting market requirements, but we also have the lowest price point that's ever been offered and a product with these attributes it between three to $400, not $1,000, not 800, not 600. You know, what would you say if I told you today, you could buy this product for $329. And that's what an NGO is doing is also helping to demonstrate to our ecosystem of partners, what can be achieved?

You talked about these these key attributes, you think that others fell short at achieving one of them was this idea of being more wearable, less weight more balanced? You talked about the idea that it's longer lived, right, that they can be used for more than a couple of hours at a time. And you talked about price affordability, that's kind of one of those other those key pillars that you described. When you think about the the other side of that the utility side of that beyond kind of the physical characteristics, what you mentioned the most useful bits of data for the specific groups that you've chosen, which was cyclists and runners that ultimately will motivate them to purchase it kind of given that they can overcome those other hurdles of price and weight.

Yeah, that's a that's an excellent question. We've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and how to prioritize this. And the reality is we've realized that for athletes in particular, it's a highly personal question. So it really comes down to where are you in your athletic journey? What are your objectives. Are you training for your first marathon? Or your 10th? Marathon? Are you a recreational cyclist? Or are you some kind of elite cyclist? Either retired pro pro semi pro? Are you somebody who steps on a podium from time to time? Do you have a coach? Or are you self coached? And depending on these sort of personal circumstances, you might be more interested in heart rate than you are in power, running power, or just power output measured through the cranks that drive train on a bicycle, you might be more interested in time elapsed and speed, then you are in in heart rate. And so it really depends, are you training? are you competing? How are you using this display today. And so what we find is that as we develop the application that connects to an array of different devices, that all have an array of different sensors, the display, as you would expect, can be configured in many different ways. So the combination of active look, plus NGO, or other partners is that the the end user will configure very personalized dashboards in order to see what matters to them. And that's where there's a personalization component here that really helps the product stand apart. But it's absolutely necessary. And I wouldn't say that it's, I don't want to overstate it because if you have a, an iOS device, or a watch OS device, or a Garmin, computer, Garmin, Ronny watch, they can all be personalized, they can all be tailored to have the kind of display or prioritize the information that's important to you, we find that that same dynamic extends all the way into the active look experience. And so we are creating an experience that extends that really, to make this a tool that people can really benefit from.

So here you're talking about this idea of compatibility of being able to take the sensor data from one or more, maybe even simultaneously, Garmin and a watch that maybe some other sort of heart rate sensor that you're wearing or other sort of performance sensor. And you're integrating all that data presumably on connected smartphone or smartwatch. And from that building a set of dashboards, set of panels that a user could swipe through in order to see whatever personalized performance data matters most to them in that moment.

That's correct. That's correct. So in the Garmin implementation today, you can pick from whatever available data fields are on your Garmin device, it varies depending on the device. So there are some Garmin running watches, there's Garmin Phoenix, which then in some cases as blood oxygen level, there's some habits, some don't, for example, there Garmin cycling computers, which then have your cadence and may have your power output. Then there are other data types that are becoming available in other wrist worn devices for athletes, that can be integrated either directly with the active look app or relate into a Garmin. So depending on the individual configuration and the sensors in that configuration, you'll be able to customize your display to present that data. Most of our Garmin configurations allow you to have two screens, or two dashboards, which you can alternate with a touchless gesture. So if you're wearing the glasses, you just swipe your hand in front of the glasses, and there's a sensor that recognizes your hands. So even while you're running or cycling, there's a very low friction interface in order to change the display. Some people will set that up as a primary and secondary display. Some people will set it up for a training versus competition display, depending on what their objectives are their GamePlan for a particular event, and make sure that they see the data that's important to that.

So here like they're swatting away a fly, just show a visual, you can swipe between the various views, the various dashboards that you've set up, which is pretty awesome.

That's exactly right. We thought that was essential because if you think about it, the dirty secret of sports watches, running watches. There's they're supposed to help you improve your performance as an athlete. But the reality is that you have to slow down to use them. You have to break strive, change your body mechanics, and then attempt to read that screen on your wrist while maintaining pace. If you're a marathoner, the whole game is about maintaining pace. And yet the watch which is supposed to help you do that requires you to break pace, usually several times per mile to confirm that you're on pace. And so we eliminate that problem completely. That's one of the reasons why we selected running and athletes in general For this demonstration case, because it's of immediate value to an endurance runner, never need to look at your wrist again, you need the sensor package and that garment, but you don't need the screen.

Yep, the glasses become screen. I have some appreciation, not that I'm an endurance runner. But I sometimes like to run around and chase after a soccer ball on the field. And I'm wearing my watch. And it's the same way, especially as my eyes get a little bit older. Not only is it to have to break, stride and slow down and stop to kind of study what's going on in this watch. But I'm also trying to put it into focus, especially late in the night. Yeah, so it's powerful. It's definitely very powerful. Within within the context of this kind of usability, where is it? Where is it that the user sees the information in their field of view? Is it something you present directly in front of their field of view? It's always persistent, or is it off to the side? Or how do you how do you accommodate that side of it?

Sure. So the optical system sits on the nose bridge, inside the eyewear. And so it's always in a very stable central balanced position. And what we're actually doing with the, the optical engine is projecting the information onto the inside of the lens, you perceive it to be float, let's say floating two or three meters, 10 feet in front of you, in a very central part of your field of view, the way the product is designed today, you're seeing it in your right eye, there'll be a small percentage of people who maybe don't have vision in the right eye for whom this product wouldn't work. But an overwhelming majority of people perceive that the data isn't a central part of their field of view. That's a strategic choice, because it helps you not get distracted. One of the big questions that comes up is, am I going to see this continually? Is it distracting? And does it interfere with my vision. And the demo is irreplaceable. But when you actually experience it, the learning curve is non existent you majority of people you put it on, and within a few seconds, you realize where to look to see your dashboard. And then it becomes instant and intuitive. You see it when you want to see it, you don't see it when you don't want to see it, go for a run, go for a bike ride. It's not even there. But instant you want to know, you know, how fast am I going or what's my pace, you just glance at this particular zone that's in a central place and through basically depth of field, you focus on it instantly see it, it's stable while you're moving, and then look away, continue to look further down the road. But we don't put it off into the peripheral vision. Some people say well, wouldn't it be great to have it far to the right or far to the left to keep it out of that central view. And the reality is that would cause that would insist that you look to the side or glance to the side while running or cycling. And that's where you get into more instances of dizziness, disorientation distraction. So it's, it's absolutely a strategic choice for us to position the data in a somewhat central position.

And the sum of the information you're describing is truly glanceable, you only need a fraction of a second to throw your eyes in that dirt. And whatever that's slightly off center direction is, in order to get the information you need. Right. If I want to know my heart rate, I don't have to sit there and try to read a bunch of tiny text in order to get that as it clicks flash, right? I see 65 or whatever. Amazing if I were running a marathon, I can maintain heart rate of 65. But anyway, that's the idea.

Yeah, we describe the product as operating at the speed of sight.

Yeah. Nice. One of those other attributes that you'd really focused on is this power efficiency as really translates both to lightness wearability, but also proficiency as it translates to how long you can use it. And you one of the critiques of some of the existing products is they only last a couple of hours. So what sort of runtime do you get out of these glasses for this sort of purpose?

It's the question that we kind of invite by saying it's a product for endurance athletes. So this product will easily last for a marathon for a majority of users. So up to 12 hours of battery life. Even for endurance cyclists that are doing some all day events, that'll do it. For some endurance running events that are transferred out of hands to all day events, it'll do it a few days of training, for out running, you know, for an hour or two a day, you might charge it once a week. And then again, if you need it to last for the run and bike segments of a triathlon, it'll do it. And there has been no product that will meet that promise until now.

Probably should not work for the swim segment though of that triathlon. Not quite ready for that

now, but but actually I'll be gracious and say yeah, for that segment work with our friends from form swim goggles. It's a slightly different product, but I think it also helps demonstrate that there is a a need and a demand for this type of solution among athletes. So it's it's a very complementary Every product in the marketplace today

yeah, you know, these available today I can go out and buy a pair of NGO's.

Yes. So that's another major distinction between OLED and LED is, oh, by the way, we're shipping available today at this price with these attributes today

from a marketing perspective, right, because part of it is about proving the case. So you talked about endo is brand as an extension that sits on top of ACTA look, which sits on top of the core technology, the micro OLED technology. And you're trying to prove this the potential for the product at one level. But also there's there's an ambition, I'm sure around making a very successful product right behind this idea. It's proving that it can be done. It's that people are eager to do it. And that itself drives demand for the underlying technology within the NGO brand itself. How do you think about the the marketing strategy around this technology that we've been, at some level have been talking about collectively since Google Glass came out in 2013, right? And it's had its ups and downs in the public mindset. And now you've got something that has a powerful set of attributes, powerful set of capabilities. How do you think about getting the word out there?

Thank you. So that's always the challenge. And that's where we kind of exist in the same domain as there's lots of other companies. So we thus far have not embraced things like sponsorships, and endorsements and some of the classic marketing tricks in which you find a celebrity athlete in order to say that your product is good. Instead, our approach is a really bottoms up grassroots approach, which is finding age groupers, which, among endurance athletes are the people who compete in a particular event at a particular age, they're competing against other peers, basically, who are somewhat elite in their categories, they do have a chance of hitting a podium, but they will provide us both with great product feedback from the field, as well, you know, they're basically acting as beta testers, as well as providing case studies for us about how the product impacts their training in preparation for events. The folks that we're working with are professionals in various trades. They're not professional athletes. There's a gentleman who's a surgeon in California, but He's competed in five Boston marathons. He's got a full time job, but he's also a serious marathoner. There's a woman in Ohio, who, she's a mom, she's got a full time job. But she's also to say it's a hobby is just not right. She is a marathoner, and competes in a number of high profile events like Boston, New York every year. And we're engaging folks like this. And we will begin to activate the case studies and white papers and stories about their experiences on our various social channels to get the word out. So they will hopefully help us communicate the value of the product in a very authentic way. And we believe that that will be marketing efficiency. Rather than taking a big bet on a celebrity endorsement, we want to have validation in the field. And we're prepared to see that validation simmer, and eventually reach a boil, we understand that that needs to happen over time. So we're also trying to avoid the pitfalls that some, you know, typically venture backed electronic innovators have, which is like let's go acquire as many users as possible as fast as possible. And then they saturate that available market and wonder where to go next. Instead, were building a ramp that will allow us to not just engage the cycling community and the running community, but then also provide a foundation upon which we can extend with our partners into other verticals. It could be mountaineering, it could be scuba diving could be any other vertical, were having a hands free heads up display, is going to be huge, huge benefit to critical, intensive competitive work. And I think that's where we're really demonstrate a lot of value,

critical, intensive work. So just describe how some of these other areas outside of sports competitiveness, kind of fit that sort of mold.

Yeah. Well, Eric mentioned defense a couple of times. So I mean, everyone knows in this XR space that there have been heads up displays in aviation for decades. That's intensive and critical work. Where else is real time information absolutely essential. So today, a mountaineer does not have the luxury of taking off a gauntlet style glove and rolling up the sleeves and a parka in order to look at their watch, which is maybe where they're getting sensor data on heart rate and things like that. And yet, they're absolutely critical conditions they have to make life hard. up decisions about are we going to push on to the summit? Are we going to go back? What's your SPO? Two level? What's your heart rate? What's your GPS position? What's the altitude? Can we make it to our destination? If you could have that information at a glance in your goggles in a non distracting way, that would probably change mountaineering. I mean, there'll be some purists who say, No, we're going to do it old school. But for many, many expeditions, that would absolutely change the safety of the overall expedition, as well as potentially outcomes, how many people are actually able to achieve their goal, whatever it may be, whatever summit they're trying to go for, you know, how much oh two is left in that supplemental tank, be really good to know. So those are the use cases that we'd like to help build out with a variety of partners. And so it actually gives us the business model where there's an expanding market as you go vertical, by vertical niche by niche. And I think these are the ones where the people who use the technology first will benefit from the most, because it's so critical to what they're doing. Eventually, we can get into entertainment and novelty and, and things like that. But one of the reasons why we're starting with endurance sports is because a fraction of a second can make a difference. And we can help make that fraction of a second visible so that you know what to do to make sure that you get that

result. Yeah, love that. As you can look out, you're starting to build this, you talked about as a simple building up to a boil, right, this idea that you've identified a handful of early customers that really represent exactly who you're targeting, and they feel the pain of the alternative solution. And the benefits of your current solution, you really want to make sure that it's working well for them, and you want to hear their story and, and share that story broadly, as you kind of continue to build. And as you look out over the path over the next 1218 months, what are the things that concern you the most that might stand in the way of ultimately executing the strategy,

confusion, and the extent to which the product really requires the demo? So first, on the confusion side? You mentioned Google Glass a few moments ago, and we all know that story. And now there are other players in the space that are sort of notorious for privacy concerns. And so to what extent does XR get commingled with AD based business models, or commerce based business models that are dependent on recurring revenue streams and other services? That loop right back into the privacy concerns? To what extent is there a backlash to the entire XR community, because of this ongoing consumer concern about having AR or XR connected to privacy issues? Well, the big guys always insist on putting a camera on every single pair of glasses that have a display, do we really need to have another large scale consumers research study primary research to validate that consumers don't want that. So what we've got is a product that isn't dependent on ad based business models, that isn't based on E commerce, it isn't based on the internet, it isn't a web browser, it doesn't have anything to do with shopping. In fact, there's enough margin in this product for it to succeed as a piece of hardware. And so our message to both consumers and to commercial partners is, yeah, we can make we can give people superpowers, we can give people those powers that I was talking about from the great experiences that continue to come from connected devices, without relying on recurring revenue streams and ad based business models. And will active look get tangled up in the mixed messages that come from the big guys. That's my concern. But when I have a chance to do a demo with an athlete, they get it and they love it. So kind of active look has an invitation to the rest of the community to say, yeah, you can build a business model. It's not based on all that other stuff that kind of seems like no one wants. Instead, you can build a business model just based on creating a great experience, and the inherent utility that comes with the product. So let's do that.

Talk a little bit more about the challenge of needing to see it the demo side of the challenge.

So one, it's new. And people always ask, like, what does it look like? I think I alluded to this earlier, potential objections. Is it distracting? Will it interfere with my field of view? These questions come up very early. And so in a direct to consumer internet sale, it's hard to simulate the product. One of the ways that we're addressing this is NGO has sort of a classic consumer satisfaction policy or contract for 30 days to return it if you're not satisfied. And I think that's an essential component of getting people to try it. But we also go to some events, triathlons and other marquee events, where we will We'll do the classic consumer sporting goods demo, put up a tent and let people try it. And the response is when people first see the data that can kind of don't know what they want to see or what to look for. But when they finally see a face lights up, and they smile, go, Oh, I see it. Wow, there it is. And it's very infectious. So it's getting people to that moment, that aha moment. And then they start to think about what they can do with it, you know, what would it actually be like for them cycling, running, you know, because cyclists and runners are already addicted to the data, the predominant mode of training today is you were to watch, or you have the cycling computer, you go to your event, and at the end, it syncs to an app and you look at your performance in the app, it's post activity review, it's very difficult to see your data live. And there's a cycling computer on your handlebars. But that's like having the dashboard on your car. And like a two inch display on the steering wheel. It's sometimes a little tricky to convince cyclists who just purchased a new cycling computer with a bigger, brighter display that it's still not good. They feel like they just upgraded. But they can't quite appreciate how much better it's going to be with the glasses. When they see it, they go, Okay, this is what I've been looking for. This is what I've been missing. So they already know the value of their data, I want to know, you know, all of my current metrics, all of these different data types, and suddenly, it's like you have the power to do it. The demo proves the point. And so I don't underestimate the importance of the balance of doing a bit of grassroots presentation combined with a satisfaction policy. And those are two components of this go to market plan.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And Eric, for you, is you kind of think on this, the set of challenges that you see out 1218 months as relates to some of the core technology elements, the manufacturability, the margins, the yield, the other sorts of things that will allow you to take full advantage of these, these end consumer opportunities, both directly through and go and your partners, what do you see as some of the one or two of the biggest challenges that are kind of sit out there in the relatively near term?

Well, in terms of, as you said, you know, for for the introduction of such a product, yeah, one of the challenges similar to what Mark said, you know, the, to see, other companies are pushing product, which already only technology driver and, you know, in the space of either Excel are connected eyewear with cameras, which could affect the market, and because they are not really a user experience, so focus more on the technology side on the manufacturing side, I mean, well, you know, we are quite okay, while doing when, because are you a well running business, you know, so we're actively running business, you know, on the, on our cover technology, outside of, of the eyewear, you know, manufacturing microdisplay for many application and, and that business is growing. So, anyway, we have a demand a winning demand to manage, and this is what we're doing every day. So I don't say it's easy, you know, it's true that, you know, the timing, you know, the supply is always difficult, but we have a, you know, manufacturing process, you know, in time I'm talking about microdisplays quite a long cycle manufacturing process, we have a good visibility from our customer, because most of the business, you know, for Miko despair, most of the business, we are in our long term business. So whenever we have a book order, which is, you know, for over 12 months, so, so good visibility, so that enable us to manage the supply. Lot. Net once. But, you know, everybody knows the situation as of today, which could change easily, you know, in terms of supplier or whatever. But so far, yeah. are doing quite okay. Yeah.

Are there any unique scaling challenges? If you suddenly got, you know, 10 extra volume orders next year? Is there anything that's particularly challenging about scaling your manufacturing of the core technology?

No, I don't think so. You know, so so, you know, first of all, talking about the micro display, the display that we use, you know, in the eyewear product is, is very compatible. So in terms of capacity, you're scaling up, the capacity for that is not that difficult, in terms of a summary of the optical module is showing the 10x 20x that type of volumes should be okay, as well, then, you know, of course, if we're very successful, it might take time, but you know, it's just a good a good problem to have.

Yeah, there's no specific challenge with the scaling it's just no no need more capacity. So we need more tools, more people more space to make it all happen. Yeah. Yeah. So the company that you are building kind of the approach that you're taking here is that you are, you're again, building the core and display microdisplay technology, you building up the module, you putting those together into a hardware unit that's tied to SDK is element elements is part of the active loop platforms, you kind of one level up in the stack there. And now here with NGO, you're kind of the next level up in the stack, right, you have this consumer product, you're making all this into one specific product with a key use, or a couple of use cases in mind. And you're going to market so you do all these three things at the three different levels simultaneously. And so as you are building your business, what are the big challenges about managing kind of a company that has activity at all three layers and the sort of stack,

it's through, you know, it's a wide range, but But you have to recognize, you know, in first state that the micro displays a major key component in the environment. So, in a way we control, you know, it's quite natural to move up the value chain and to control the value chain of the module. But But you are right, you know, it's, it's a real challenge, you know, it requires many different expertise, and very open approach to address from the component up to the module, let's say, the platform, and add to the finished product, and to the end customer. But, you know, in a way, we were innovators, and we, you know, we like to do innovation, and for me, the, the innovation, you know, I really like that, and customer approach, you know, when they used to work at Thompson, you know, I was doing product, you know, not not only the despair, I really like to go to the finished product. And for me, you know, the innovation should start with a user experience. It's not only, you know, something, we should be your technology driver. And I think it's a big difference, you know, here what we're doing, if I compare, you were talking about Sunil Sunil, they have a pure technology roadmap approach, and I understand that, you know, it's the, their business case, is different. No, it's, let's say, your value, you know, in the company, we like to understand really the customer. And even you know, if I talk about what we're doing, you know, for for other applications, such as night vision, and whatever, it's the same No, of course, we don't make night vision system, because that will be too difficult. But we really like to understand very much what the user needs. And for me, it's key, because when you really understand, you know, the use case from the user, even for night vision, you know, they want to use the system in a dark night, but they want to be able to use the system day. So you need to have a display, which can work, you know, in a in a in a comprehensive way, you know, from really, really dark night to let's say, it's a moonlight or some gathered, any share the same, you know, so going to the finished product for me is, of course, it's difficult, but it's very nice, because you better understand, you know, really the use case. And as Mark was saying, You know what, talking to athletes, you know, for the past years, we have been working with beta tester with different athletes using the product, we have sought some athletes who have been using the product were early stage of the product for more than two years. So it's very nice to understand, you know, really what they need at the end. And then you can feed back what you need for the core technology. And this is completely different, you know, if, if I made the comparison to a big company that we say I want to make an eyewear for AI and we say, I want to display with HGTV Fukuro and everything. Okay, but at the end, you know, is it really what the user will need. So, here, we understand what the user needs the user, they want to see the information in an eyewear which is lightweight, which looks good, you know, because when you are a runner, or when you are cyclists to you, you know, they are, they are sensitive as well to the look and feel. And they don't care, you know, if this is, you know, a multicolor or single color, but they want to be able to see the information very quickly. And in any daylight condition, for instance, but also, you know, if you go to dawn to the, to the night, because our display, the brightness of the display will adjust, you know, is a sense also that if you go for instance, which you know, that will reduce the brightness. So, coming back to your question, it's clear that, you know, while doing the guy can we say in French. So we're going, you know, from the component to the finished product, and it's true, it's not easy, it's difficult to manage, but it brings a lot of benefits for the company. It brings a lot of benefit for the employees as well as a company and first to develop more product.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. The feedback loop is really powerful. In that way in, as you noted, you're modifying the core technology based on how it's actually going to be used in that full system context. Yes.

Exists tea, you know, when when we develop that display that was specifically for this application, because the display that we use in the glasses is different from the display that we do. For instance, for night vision is completely different. It's a completely different architecture. And by the way, I think we're the only one to switch nursery texture on the display. And that's why it's so low power.

Yeah, amazing. And this is in the sort of context we're talking about here for Endo, with the sports the athletes, single color, yeah, single

color as of today, you know, because, you

know, that's all you need.

It's not the major, major things. So So you, you, you have some gray level, but then, you know, on our roadmap, we will bring, you know, multicolor, and so on. So, but you know, at the end, what is key for the for the user, you want to see the data, you know, anytime, you know, any any day conditions.

Now, let's wrap it a few in lightning round questions. What commonly held belief about AR VR spatial computing Do you disagree with,

I'm afraid I may have already tipped my hand on that one. risk of repeating myself, I'll just say I disagree that AR VR requires one of the giant dominant tech players to bring it to market. And I don't think that the traditional business models that are very internet driven, are a fundamental requirement. There. They're valid, but they're not a requirement. Right. Eric, you want to add one?

Yeah, I think that, you know, the main people have been working on AR VR for the past 20 years. 25 years, I remember the first product to that person. And so my vision is, you know, most of these products, they've been mostly, you know, technology driving, and not really thinking about the use case. I mean, for me, you know, if you look back at the Google product was technically was a good product, you know, of course, the battery life was too short, you know, it was, I guess, to our social media, that, that then the use case was the key. And also, you know, it looks like a technology product and not really like an eyewear, I'm convinced that what we call a light AR, you know, in my career. So I wear augmented reality AI wherever you bring information, that or video, you know, to the user, but But you you keep your view of the real world, you know, you are in the real world, and you did you get additional information, which gives you you know, more power or whatever, you know, more and more interesting information. I think this is going to be a major market. But definitively, it should not be a technology push, it should be really a use case, because otherwise, it's going to be difficult to develop it. And by the way, I'm afraid that that was the case, you know, most of the attempt on AAO, you know, the products always trans, you know, how brings, you know, things, technology points, you know, we're talking about the Kenya, I'm not sure that we need necessarily a camera, maybe in some application, for instance, for industry, we need a camera. But for everyday use, not sure that you necessarily need a camera. So I think that the main, you know, as of today, you know, the AR market that I have seen that most of the company has been very pushing technology and not really thinking at the at the use case.

If you could sit down and have coffee with your 25 year old selves, what advice would you share with 25 year old mark or a 25 year old Eric?

Yeah, my son is 21. So

you've had this conversation recently? No,

no, no, actually, no, frankly, speaking, you know, when I look back to what I did, in terms of technical on today's show, yeah, I always enjoy and I am doing things with with passion, I think that you can share it. So, for me, this is key, you know, to keep up with the passion in what you do. And, and this is also so nice to share it with other people, you know, you know, relationships, friendships need to take this opportunity to share this passion, you know, with with your friends, your family, that type of things.

Yeah, great. I love it. Have you mark.

So when I was 25, I was a ski rep. And I spent about 100,000 miles a year on the road doing on snow demos for an upstart ski company, which actually still exists. And one of the things concern me at that time was I just had this realization, I saw a lot of great people in the ski industry who would get hurt, if there was a bad snow year, other ski reps, livelihood would be in big trouble in one region, while in another region that gets snow, it's it's boom time. And I realized, wow, that that variable is pretty, pretty scary to me. Maybe I should go find a career that's not in sporting goods. And so these days, I actually comment on things who like sometimes I'm invited to speak at a business school or something and say, you know, if you think your startup is hard today, just imagine, if you have all the same challenges you have, but you can only sell when it's snowing. And that's the ski business. But somehow I've come full circle, and today I'm bagging specialty sporting goods, with technology with Eric. And so my advice to my 25 year old self would be maybe don't wait so long to find something that's really compelling, that you want to have a role in bringing success to. And don't be afraid of a bed failure.

Don't be afraid of a bad snow. Yeah. Any closing thoughts either you'd like to share?

Well, I would just say to any of your listeners, by all means come to either angle eyewear.com or active look.com. And there are contact us tools on the websites. And we'd be delighted to hear from you. And not only get your feedback on on the presentation and discussion, but entertain any discussions or demos to get additional feedback on the product. Totally welcome. Love to hear from people.

Awesome. How about you, Eric?

Yeah, it's a little bit sooner. But you know, what I like, as of today, you know, with the activity that we discovered, people were developing application or platform and could be a you know, always application that you do not imagine before. So for instance, you know, people are using, you know, the glasses to control the halfway heart rate, you know, of the horses, you know, when they are riding horses, you know, we've been never think you want that type of application, you know, for horse racing, then, you know, last week, we discovered a company, we developed an application for paragliding, sending the information directly to the glasses. But we've also, you know, plenty of people in the industry type of application using the grasses for application that we never been thinking about. So I am very glad you know that that in small scale as of today, but that this product is bringing some innovation for partners, you know, or just anything, they're their business in a way. So I'm very happy about that type of open platform, enabling a different type of use case.

Absolutely. And this is one of those fun, fun things about working on an emerging technology is that we can't even imagine all the amazing and interesting ways in which the end users will end up adopting and adapting these things to make their lives the lives of their customers. Amazing right are significantly better. So the fun, the fun aspect, I guess if there's been there's been this early, Mark, you've talked about how to get in contact and learn more about what you're doing@indigo.com and active look.com? Where Can folks go to learn more about both of you as individuals and the underlying core technology company? Micro OLED?

Oh, sure. So I'm on LinkedIn, I believe Eric is as well. And the micro OLED website is micro oled.net. And so we have a total of three different websites here, but we're glad to engage on all fronts.

Yeah, and again, a world of micro read, you know, since the inception of the company, since we started the company, we have always been very open to collaboration with our customers and changed. So that's, that's part of the idea and of the company, where we we like to make you know, things to resolve customer with a partner. So, welcome to contact us, you know, for any ideas.

Amazing. Thank you both so much for this conversation.

Thank you. Thank you, Jason. Thank you.

For you go. I'm going to tell you about the next episode, and I speak with David King Lassman. David is the founder of GigXR, a global provider of immersive 3d training solutions that transform collaborative learning with an initial focus on healthcare. David is a serial entrepreneur who grew up with a passion for music and has since started six companies. In this conversation we dig into GigXR, the benefits of immersive training and their strategy for growth. I think you'll really enjoy the conversation and please consider contribute to this podcast@patreon.com slash the AR show. Thanks for listening.