1869, Episode 110 with Linh Vu, author of Governing the Dead

3:23PM Sep 23, 2021

Speakers:

Jonathan Hall

Linh Vu

Keywords:

martyrs

nation

people

dead

chinese

war

nationalist

ceremonies

book

die

china

state

stories

heroes

regime

cemetery

create

families

20th century

life

Welcome to 1869 the Cornell University Press podcast. I'm Jonathan Hall. This episode we speak with Linh Vu, author of Governing the Dead: Martyrs, Memorials, and Necrocitizenship in Modern China. Lin is assistant professor at Arizona State University's School of Historical, Philosophical and Religious Studies. We spoke to Linh about how growing up in post-war Vietnam inspired her to learn more about how nations, in this case China, handled the millions of war debt from conflicts in the 20th century, the evolving concept of necrocitizenship, and the most famous of the Nationalist regime's "martyrs for the nation". Hello, Lynn, welcome to the podcast.

Hello. Thank you, Jonathan.

My pleasure, our pleasure. And congratulations on your new book Governing the Dead: Martyrs, Memorials, and Necrocitizenship in Modern China. Tell us how you got interested in this topic and the backstory of this book.

So I have always interested in wars and conflicts. Part of it is because I was born in Vietnam. Even though I was born a decade after the Vietnam War ended, the war was pretty much there. My parents and grandparents don't really talk about it so much, but it's there. And it's sort of haunting me for ever. So when I began to study Chinese history in college, I became curious about how wars affected people in China. And I did my PhD coursework and went into field work hoping to find out more about you know, what happened to people during the war, multiple wars during the 20th century. So to narrow down my focus, as you know, doing archival research, I thought that I would be able to find documents about how the government and the people handled the corpses, the millions of the warded? How can they deal with this logistical issue, which is a huge one, if you think about it, the war a lot of dead bodies everywhere, as I imagine, but I couldn't find any. I found some stuff about dead bodies and burials of Chinese soldiers in Burma and India during the Burma campaign of the 1940s. But that's about it. So I pivoted a bit to work on, you know, the idea that how the state and the people dealt with loss and suffering, and other, you know, sort of how did they come back together after the war. So that became the topic of my book.

Interesting. Now, I read in the acknowledgments that part of your interest was spurred by visiting catacombs in Rome. Is that correct?

Yes. So even though I studied Chinese history, in college, when I had the opportunity to study abroad, I chose Rome. And my professor then, his name is - I'm blanking now- I only remember his last name Paxton. He's a medieval historian. And he told us to the catacomb, and I was struck about the idea to, you know, how the dead started live among us among the living, and how they are not forgotten how they are, you know, still there. So yes, I became very deeply interested in in the dead, and actually wrote articles about car accidents and suicides and sort of, you know, this, like the theme for my intellectual endeavor somehow, hopefully, I will pivot to something more uplifting in the future. But I think there's so much to be done about dead and the dead. And, you know, the role that they play in our lives as the living?

Yeah, I don't think it's a depressing topic. I mean, I think it's part of life. And there, you know, it's something that people, at least in the West try to avoid thinking about. And I think we need to think more about the impact of the dead on living. Now, your focus specifically is on China and modern China. And there's been a lot of death in over the past 100 150 years, typically, the first half of the 20th century, the whole world was on fire, really. But for the Chinese 20 to 30 million Chinese military and civilian died lost their lives in the first half of 20th century. How did the nationalist regime in China assume the responsibility for caring for the dead and also in doing so create a powerful nation state?

Yes, so that's one of my main arguments for the book is that the nationalists, you know, the regime they were quite competent in creating the foundation for a strong nation state even though they lost the Chinese Civil War and you know, Now they kind of shrink to fit into the island of Taiwan, actually, they also lost a lot of power in Taiwan as well. But in a way, we sort of have to give them some credit, as early as you know, the 1910s and 1920s, members of the revolutionary Alliance. So this is the, you know, sort of the former identity of the Nationalist Party, and also the Nationalist Party to during the, you know, early 1920s, they started to promote the idea that sacrificing one's life for the nation, and the pollute, and the political party was a good death. It's something that is actually desire. And then when the nationalist regime was formed, in the mid 1920s, they started to create institutions to commemorate this martyrs who died for the Chinese Republic. And then they also compensated the families of those martyrs. And the Nationalist government also did a bunch of, you know, first, they first build a military cemetery for fallen soldiers in Nanjing, they also mandated county governments to be a shrine for martyrs, then they also made the county governments to organize commemorative events. So as you can imagine, all these policies reinforced a very strong notion of national martyrdom and national belonging, you attended those ceremonies, you feel like you are connected to the people that sacrificed their lives, and you feel connected to the community. You know, in a way, those propaganda those policies worked in creating, you know, the the national community. And also, you know, not just those intangible notion of the nation, but the institutions that they built. The institutions also provided tangible benefits. So families of those who are honored as martyrs, they could receive stipends, and then the children could attend school for free. So you know, there's a lot of incentives for people to, you know, joy, the nationalist cause, and, you know, became more willing to die for the nation have become willing to think of the death of someone, as you know, for the nation, even though in many cases, this could be considered victims, they probably did not have this very nationalistic, very patriotic notions when they die. But they, the families of those people were inclined to think that these debts are, in fact for the nation.

Interesting. Tell us that, you know, in the in the subtitle, you have necrocitizenship. Can you explain a little bit more of this concept?

Yes. So I think, and to be honest, you know, this is one of the concepts that I'm still working through. And I think other authors, you know, also work on it as well. But for me, in my research, I think there are two meanings to Nicko citizenship. One is the idea that people that died way before the nation was founded. Think, think about there were people that died revolutionaries that died in the late Ching Dynasty and only republican period. So you know, late 19th century and early 1910s, this will die before the national nationalist regime was established. But then when the you know, the, the regime was built, the nationalist of tech all these people that died during this period, you know, prior to the establishment and say, these are the ancestors of our nation. So Nicholson ships in a way means that those that there was sort of scoop up from different periods of history, and now they become incorporated into the nation. They are the negotiations of the nation. And the second meaning of NATO citizenship is a little bit darker and more sinister, I guess, his idea that you can only gain citizenship, you can only become part of a nation upon your death. So a lot of these people, and you know, a lot of soldiers and many more of the civilians, they they were not known to the state, the state did not know they exist. But once they die during the war, especially the war, the war of resistance, would were to you know, the word that the Chinese fought against and the Japanese army. Once they die, they became incorporated into the nation stage, they are celebrated as martyrs as heroes as part of the nation. So in in a way, they only gained citizenship upon their death. So it's a little bit of a morbid idea that You know, you are only part of the nation, you only gain citizenship by dying. That's a tough and mentally

tough way to become a citizen.

But you know, in the case of America to, you know, some soldiers, you know, green card holders, they could come seasons after they die during the war and then ship posthumously. So there's a little bit, something that is sinister by then, about the nation. state. Yeah.

And you mentioned, you mentioned parallels with the American Civil War and European states, European countries after world war one that a lot of them erected monuments to the dead war memorials. And so there was this Western mode of war commemoration. And you're looking at the eastern the Chinese approach. And I was fascinated by these loyal martyr shrines tell us how they were different than the traditional Western approach to war commemoration.

One of the main difference is that the national government and you know, the central government did not build a lot of those, but they sort of just mandate county governments to do so. And as you think about a, you know, the bureaucracy, the county governments will just pick some sort of an empty space in an existing temple. And they say, this would be the space for the martyrs now, and that would save us a lot of, you know, money, a lot of costs associated with building a whole new strike a whole new Memorial. So that's what happened during, you know, the nationalists who, in mainland China. So a lot of those temples that became the loyal martyrs, shrines will already temples. So in the same space, as I explained the book as well, sometimes, you know, heroes from the Han Dynasty, for example, or the sub dynasty, they would be honored in the same space as republican martyrs. So there's a lot of sort of, you know, mixing and mixed match, as you can imagine, which is really counter to what the nationalist agenda would be right? They would want to commemorate only the people that die for the nation, and the political party, but then in a way, those tribes have to conform to the local conditions, and they sort of become a place for, you know, all the martyrs or the heroes or the local prominence that died. So and then, because of, you know, the idea that they only appropriated temples that already existed. So when the communists took over all the strides disappear overnight, well, I would not say overnight, but they would sort of revert reverted back to being the stripes Union, the Han Dynasty heroes, and the Song Dynasty heroes and the trace of the republican heroes disappeared. So we couldn't see a lot of those today, there are, there are a few of them that are still standing, but you no, no longer see those. So that's another difference to that, you know, if you visit Europe or you know, America, the memorials are probably still there, they are constructed more sort of prominently, and they did not suffer the same fate as the Chinese lower martyrs shrine.

That's fascinating. Tell us more about the actual ceremonies with which they called comforting the loyal spirit.

Yes, so I think it's very fascinating. And I think I have long sections in the book describing the cemetery, the beginning, they would follow this sort of ancestral worship, ancestor worship, the ceremonies for those so they offer incense or for all these meats that are prepared ritually, or this fruits and all these offerings food, most of the time, because, you know, the Chinese courts are hungry. The you have to feed the goats in China and a lot of other Asian societies. So all these foods would be put in ritual, and you know, bowls and plates and everything like that. And then later on a course, you have a lot more martyrs, you have more ceremonies to conduct and also you face the difficulty of war times and you simplified it and basically, the board got good gather. And they would, you know, bow three times, to the martyrs portraits and some allergies, some poems. Some lectures will be read to those martyrs so became a more standardized and I guess politicized, but in a way, it's still you know, those ceremonies still played a very important role in creating a immunity. You know, even though the it's centered around the dead, but it's unified the living to a large extent.

And just out of curiosity, I know this is beyond the scope of your book. But then, you know, the Communist Revolution occurs. And a lot of these traditions that are more spiritual in nature didn't jive with the "new scientific man" that they were proposing. So how did some of these traditions, did they just stop some of these traditions?

So I haven't done a lot of research about the Communist era yet. But I, what I found is that it's very gradual. It's not like they took over and they forced people to abandon all this, actually, the communist also have the, you know, very similar rituals. Up until the 1950s, before they carry out, you know, the great proletarian Cultural Revolution, a lot of the ceremonies that were invented by the nationalists to worship, you know, their martyrs were adopted by the communists as well. There are some ceremonies and there are the, what, what is called the public sacrifice, which is, you know, a memorial, but it's called sacrifice because you make sacrificial offerings to the dead. A lot of these activities were carrying out for prominent Chinese politicians as well. Even in Beijing, there's a cemetery for the cadre, it's called the eight treasures mountain, cemetery. cemetery. And from what I read, from the newspapers, in the 50s, a lot of the ceremonies resembled what the nationalists did during the 1930s, and 1940s. But of course, the biggest change would happen during the Cultural Revolution. And a lot of those rituals would be abolished and condemned. But, you know, a lot of times things sort of cycled back, I guess, and the idea of organizing a public sacrifice and make offerings to the dead. I mean, you know, they still doing it, to this day. Maybe not, at the top Politburo level, but the people still King at the same ceremony.

That makes sense. It's not state sanctioned, necessarily, but there's the local municipalities are doing it. So yes, yeah. Interesting. Interesting. So during

the families, yeah. Yes. So you know, like a Chinese politicians, maybe the state organize a state funeral. There is more, you know, I guess a scientifically guided, that's not the right word. But you know what I mean, but the families are carrying out all this, you know, tomb sweeping festival, hoes, and all these burning incense and winning people good to know this thing. So there's sort of a separate the public spirit and the private sphere where people could exhibit more of the traditional ways of, you know, mourning the dead.

That makes sense that makes sense. During this time, Who were some of the most famous of the martyrs for the nation?

Yes, sir. The most famous one would be Lin Juemin. And I only briefly mentioned him in the book, because he's, I think he's too popular. And he's, he died in 1911, in a very small uprising in Guangzhou South China. But he was not that famous for what he did. In the revolution in the uprising, what he was famous for, is actually because he wrote a very long loving letter to his wife. And I think one of my friends in Taiwan told me that the letter that Lin Juemin wrote to his wife was taught in Taiwan, in schools, you know, to school children's for a long time, I couldn't verify that, but I could imagine that that is the case. And then, he also wrote a very short one farewell letter to his father, he said, You know, I'm so sorry, I was so unfilial. But the letter to his wife made him very famous, because, as you can imagine, of course, you can always talk about those models, you know, bang for the nation dial for the stage, they die. So he wrote, like, you know, in front of the enemy and all these things, but then eventually, in order to, you know, create something that resonates with people, you want the backstory, you want those models to be three dimensional. So a lot of times the stories and I mentioned earlier in this interview, that, you know, the Nationalists already create this idea of dying from the nation is the good death. But they are but you know, keep in mind, the Nationalist regime and the Nationalist Party members and you know, the the leadership's they also create all the stories or they promote those stories as well. The idea that, you know, someone dies for the nation, but before he did that, he was a failure, son. He had this you know, marital bliss with his wife and even though, you know, dying for the nation means he could no longer take care of his parents and his family. But of course, you would lose an heir, you know, a male stand behind, to continue his lineage. So, so this is really the theme for, you know, the martyrs of the nation actually. And you can kind of think about how, you know, those three dimensional, you know, characters would be more would be a better candidate to motivate people, right? So you read about those people, and you can really think that, oh, they had a really good life. And even, you know, post two, mostly, they were cared for by the edge, and they were not affiliated at all. So that's another thing with, you know, the whole idea of constructing the notion of martyrdom is that you need to reconcile or not you, but the nationalist regime, it has to reconcile the Confucian idea of someone who you know, live a long life, taking care of his parents, taking care of his families and raising his children with someone that would die or would be willing to die for the nation. So those stories of the martyrs have to cater to that sensibilitiy, right. So they have to make sure that the martyr was not only you know, wanting to die, but he was also very handsome, he had a great life. And his lineage is maintained, and actually had a really long, I have a very long story about Chen Gengxin in, in the book, I included his whole biography, because I really want people to see what was put out there for the people and how those stories motivated the living. So you know, Chen Gengxin, who was very handsome, who could ride horses, and shoot guns, but then he can also, you know, recite poetry. And then when you know, he engaged in the suicide missions, he had this long talk about, you know, how, how that would be okay. In the Confucian society in the Confucius, you know, how he did not violate the Confucian principle. And so the story is a very wholesome. So you know, before, I guess, before Netflix, or before all the movies about heroes, those stories, those stories of martyrs that are promoted by the state, but in a way, they became very popular, they almost became like a popular fiction for people, you can see that, you know, the stories, motivate people, because it caters to a lot of the human needs, the idea that they want to live a fulfilled life, and death, which is, you know, part of the ideal life that was left.

So I think that's very important. And I just want to add one thing, that you know, why it's so important to for the martyrs to, you know, to live a well lived life and then have an heir to take care of him. It's because in the, in the Chinese society, there's no, you know, are the watery rewards for the dead. This is something that is different from, let's say, you know, American and European societies, some of those is that there's no God to embrace those martyrs into, you know, his arms. So, it is very important for the stories of the martyrs that once they die, their wife stays chaste. Their parents are taken care of either by the family or the state, and their son went to school and carrying out, you know, the efficiency of the debt, you know, Father martyr, so that is very important. Yeah.

Interesting, interesting. Well, thank you so much for sharing these stories and making this history come alive. It's a fascinating look, as you said, how the dead were used as a way of creating a whole new system of government, the bureaucracy that you said, constructed military cemeteries, there were hundreds of local murder shrines, they collected biographical data on the dead, and they collectively mourned millions of fallen soldiers and civilians, as well as distributed millions of Yuan to 10s of 1000s of widows and orphans. It was a huge undertaking, and as you also eloquently said, they're also presented the murders as heroes and presented them as a way of bringing cohesion to the state. So all of this is detailed in much more elaborate ways, with in depth research in your new book, governing the dead martyrs memorials and niekro citizenship in modern China. Thank you so much, Lynn for joining us. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you for taking time with me.

That was Lynn Vu, author of Governing the Dead: Martyrs, Memorials, and Necrocitizenship in Modern China. If you'd like to purchase our new book with a 30% discount, visit our website at Cornell press cornell.edu and use the promo code 09POD. If you live in the UK, use the discount code CSANNOUNCE and visit the website combined academic.co.uk. Thank you for listening to 1869, The Cornell University Press Podcast.