Episode 28: Jackie Brown (1997) & Out of Sight (1998) - Movie Connections
12:37PM Jan 19, 2023
Whoa, just curious what mid just curious media this is let's talk movies. And I'm Jason Connell on the show. Today I'm joined by special guest, Brian Beasley
special guests. I love it. Good to see you, Jason.
You too, Brian. We are back my friend doing a nother movie connections episode. And I'm super excited to join me on this journey.
I'm super excited to be here. We had lunch in LA not a few weeks ago.
And we did we hadn't seen each other for a few years.
You instantly were like, Do you know the connection between Jackie Brown and our site? And I was like Michael Keaton, you're like, you're doing this pod with me. And I'm all in.
You pass the test.
And I got super excited because I rewatched Jackie Brown pretty recently during the lockdown, but I hadn't seen outside in a while. And I love love that movie. Total. You can just see why everyone's gonna be a movie star, George Clooney and JLo I mean, the chemistry between the two of them is extraordinarily palpable. And yes, I'm just excited to talk about Michael Keaton. The best Batman,
as am I well, you jumped the gun and I like it. So we are definitely talking about Jackie Brown 1997 and out of sight 1998 And this is Movie connections we kind of all let's talk movies. I like to do like things in like threes not even pairs three. So what last time you had you on? We did Risky Business of course remember? Yep. And what was the other movie
and the color of money? masterpiece. And unlike today
where we're talking about an actor who portrayed a character in two movies by different directors and that one we talked about Tom Cruise and Bruce a young because they were sharing scenes and both of those movies. So anyway, that has some sort of weird parallel. I like to explore it. And today is different than the episode because today is two movies by legendary directors I should say Quentin Tarantino, Steven Soderbergh. Both movies were based on an Elmore Leonard novel, which is another tie in of course, and Michael Keaton plays the same character in each film. And when I saw outside, I was thinking, Wait, is he playing the same guy? Like I caught it right away? But then I just thought, do you see that that often? What turns out you really don't see this very often?
No, no, not unless it's the Marvel Universe or DC the superheroes they've kind of graver done it, maybe the the TV show bleed and stuff like that. But I actually did not catch this. The first time I saw it. I definitely saw Jackie Brown the movie theater. I didn't see how to cite later until it was on most likely. DVD VHS. I don't know. Okay. Okay. And I think I must have had like some kind of nerdy film conversation at some point down the line. someone's like, Hey, did you know?
I'm sure you did. You went to NYU film school. I'm sure
that it popped up. But it definitely was something that stuck with me. And then doing the research on this. I found one or two that I thought we can mention that on the back end that were kind of follow. Yeah,
yeah. And I've got a comp I want to bring into play that's also in a Soderbergh film that I thought was interesting when I saw that movie in the theater, and it came out in 99. But I'll save that to the end. So this is more of a fast down and dirty backstory on each movie. But we'll start with Jackie Brown came out first. Yes. So we'll jump in 1997. And let me just say this finally, as you speak about a site, which I also really love. I feel that way about Jackie Brown and always have some people like hey, what's your favorite Tarantino movie and there was a spell where I would have said Jackie Brown is my favorite. I think once upon a time in Hollywood is probably taking the nod course, I could rotate those all day long. He's got so many great movies. He wanted me to pin one down since I put Reservoir Dogs on again, that's my favorite 100 person so I can't choose that. But as far as Jackie Brown the synopsis is a flight attendant with a criminal past gets nabbed by the ATF for smuggling under pressure to become an informant against the drug dealers she works for she must find a way to secure her future without getting killed. So great background that sets the stage for Jackie Brown I would say course directed by Quentin Tarantino, written by Quentin Tarantino screenplay credit, Elmore Leonard, rest in peace. We lost him in 2013 at the age of 87. He wrote the novel and which was called Rum Punch. Now the cast I'll quickly go through this as well. Pam Greer's Jackie Brown Sam L. Jackson's Ordell Robbie Robert Forster rest in peace. Incredible Actor Oscar nominated Oscar nominee for this role Best Supporting Actor. We'd lost him in 2019 at the age of 78. He plays Max cherry Of course, Bridget Fonda plays Melanie the surfer chick, and Robert De Niro, who's incredible and everything, but he plays this so well. Lewis Gaara, and then Michael Keaton plays Ray Nicolet and there's many more ATF ATF agent. Now I read in you probably read this as well, Brian that John Travolta was the first poised to play this role. Now him in Qt have this great connection because it goes back to of course Pulp Fiction. And that would have been an interesting take. It would have been, you know, he probably could have done it just as
it would have. I thought Michael Beaton did a great job. I actually didn't read that either. The one thing I did read was I guess Quinton said somewhere that Michael Keaton kept trying to talk him out of hiring him, which I think is a common thing that Michael Keaton does. I guess,
you don't want me to play Birdman. You know?
I don't want to be Batman, me Batman, Batman.
Even better Batman. I mentioned Birdman because of the accolades he got, but yes, Batman. He didn't want to do that. He did two of them, right? Yes, he did. Yeah, he's Batman twice. Yeah, that's funny. Well, I love Michael Keaton. And let's go from most recent to backwards. I mean, the founder, I can watch that movie every day he plays Ray Kroc, the founder of McDonald's. So good spotlight, which one best picture? He's so good. And, of course Birdman Oscar nominated for Best Actor Pacific Heights when he really pivots and starts to play the darker character. That's a great little thriller movie. Johnny dangerously for comedy Mr. Mom for comedy in the night shift Ron Howard's first movie. I mean, not to mention the Batman's what you just brought up so many he has been around, and what a pivot and his career. I mean, I know that Jim Carrey kind of did that. But he could probably still do comedy. Once Keaton switched over. It's like that was it. He was a serious actor. Yeah,
I remember he was on a movie called clean and sober. clean and sober. Yeah,
I guess he did comedy after that. Because multiplicity. But yeah, cleaning silver. I mean, he was probably one of the top actors in Hollywood for a stretch in the ad.
Oh, 100%. Yeah, Mr. Mom will always have a special place. Oh, just how old I was when I saw it. Oh, yeah. How funny I thought he was and he's still even in, not so much an outside but in this one he has. There's one scene where he gets to have like a little of that Michael Keaton back and forth, kind of Yes, it's very light and Jackie Brown, obviously, because he has to be a bit of a serious person but and I think he does that with a lot even a lot of a serious roles. I think there's moments where he can kind of bring levity to the seriousness of the stories.
Yeah, I think so. And he plays this role. Great. And so to set the stage again, ATF agent, Ray Nicolet. Brian, he rides a motorcycle. He's got the helmet. We never seen a motorcycle. We see the helmet helmet, love the jacket. Where's the black leather jacket all the time? Of course he has the sunglasses with a strap, almost like he's a sailor, but he's always on his bike. So we know. And then I'd love him and his partner played by Michael Bowen, who plays Mark Dargis le you also recognize from Yeah, he's LAPD it's good cop, bad cop or hunger stop hunting or bad cop, good ATF agent, whatever it is. Do a very good job. Now you may recognize Michael Bowen from Kill Bill Volume on he played buck.
That's right. He's the nurse role the nurse, rapist nurse, they're
total rapists. They're great in these scenes and they're really given Jackie the business and they play on her, you know, vulnerabilities. And although I'd say the whole time Jackie's outsmarting them.
Oh 100% Keens first line, when he walks up after officer Dargis is like kind of asking Jackie Brown a bunch of questions is can I help out? Like he just kind of appears kind of help out? Yeah. Just walking by and I'm like, Oh, she of course instantly knows he's law enforcement. SSC, his badge, but it sets him up perfectly because he it's total good cop bad cop. Like they're not trying to reinvent the wheel here. And he brings that Michael Keaton charm. It's why he's cast obviously. Yeah, cuz he can do that perfectly. He's there to kind of win her over. But Jason you're so right as you watch the movie, especially after you see how everything goes down. It's she's the one playing them.
Absolutely. She's so good at this and I really didn't know much about Pam grip. Before I saw this movie. I learned after her background and how Quentin Tarantino was like such a fan of her work and not Mario van Peebles, but his father Melvin van Peebles, but so she obviously huge actress but she's so good in this role and her and Max cherry working together to come up with this perfect scheme. Yeah, she out cops, these guys. So basically Ray bust Jackie, and then they work with her to get Ordell because I don't have her on much. They want to go after someone who's selling guns. He's a much bigger thug, and she's just the linchpin to them.
She's the money mule basically she's the money
mule? Yes, but rake takes a shine to her Brian likes Jackie more than just wants to work with her. But they're at that dinner one scene which is it feels like a it's like a date. It was very strange. Let
me ask you a question before we move too far past a bit late so they arrest her at the airport. She's not saying anything while officer Dargis is kind of like questioning her at the police station. Keaton is counting the money. Yeah. Then he looks into the bottom of the bag. Yes, I even when I rewatched it. I'm like, Oh, he planted those drugs because they're picking her up for having over $10,000 She's like 5050 grand,
right and I knew the amount They knew
to tell is that when they're arresting her Michael Keaton doesn't ever look at the money. And when they, when they say it looks like 50 grand, he's like, Yep, looks like 50 grand to me. And she picks up on that, which is also if you go back, she's so much smarter than you think she really is. She wasn't even looking at Michael Gaines character. And she knew that he wasn't looking at the money. It's a perfect Elmore Leonard novel where there's so many layers of people playing everyone. But I totally thought he planted the drugs, did you? What did you think?
I thought initially he did and then after rewatches, it's like, yeah, but she they let her tell tell you that it was was planted in there by someone else. And it was just there. But the way they shot it definitely makes you think it because he's looking in the bag and then pulls out like classic.
Yeah. Yeah, she's waving.
Oh, yeah. I initially thought that. But yeah, once I only learned it from what they've revealed. Sure. Yeah.
And they don't again, to the credit of Quinton writing this, it's like a piece of dialogue that's thrown away in a much later scene of like, oh, yeah, the arms dealer threw it in there for Melanie, you know, it's not even Exactly. But it's important because the drugs are what take it from what should be like, six months stay in jail to you might be going to jail for six or seven years. Now she can work for them. And this way you think they planted it at the beginning. So however, when you get
to know His character array, he would never, you know, he's just He is above board that way. But he's not the best and brightest. I'll say that almost doesn't say a lot about ATF agents. I'm sure they didn't appreciate this role. It's like, yeah, he's getting outwitted by her constantly. And she's so good at it. But it is what it is. There's an aspect
I narrowed this down that the bravado of the cops is their downfall when she pitches or Dell, the same old Jackson character of how she can work with them and secretly bring in all of his money. And it's only going to cost him 10 grand, and he'll get his half a million. She goes back to the police, right? And she's like, I'm willing to work with them this idea. I know, Ordell they're out of their minds excited. Of course, that's the scene that we get to see keeping up like you said, walking down the hall and he's got his motorcycle jacket. Oh, yeah. He's doing the Michael Keaton walk where his head's moving all over the place. And he's like, taking everything in. And the third thing, it's the helmet, the jacket. And the third thing between both these movies is the GM. He's always got Yom and his mass
that is a character unto itself. Yeah, I mean, it's chewing the gum. Well, and you bring up a good point about her. And she says something to them about Ordell she says he wants to believe me. Yes. And I feel the same about these guys, because they're, they're so everybody wants her to believe her because she can help all of them. Meanwhile, she's
slaying them. There's a great little moment between the two scenes. The first one is she asked to smoke and they're in Iowa. And he goes, No, no. And then when she comes back and asked to help them, she goes, Can I smoke it? Of course. Yeah. And it's just like, she knows she's got him. She knows that she's got him on the hook. And it's great.
That's exactly true. Yeah. He was like, Okay, no problem this time. Well, so again, we don't need to break down the movie, per se. It's like Keaton's role. And he's in this movie, we should point out a lot more than he's an out of sight, out of sight. He's a real character of a cameo. He is a real character. In fact, I like him coming back throughout the movie, it gives it that kind of that beautiful pace and structure, because you're checking in with Ordell. You're seeing what he's got going on him and Louis, and Melanie, then you catch up with Max Jerry, who is an incredible character in this movie. In fact, I would have loved to seeing if this is a different time, that probably would have been a max cherry spin off. Yeah, because it's such a free character, or a prequel and it's still on the table. I mean, it's such a cool thing to see his life and his office and his just the whole thing, how he works. And then of course, Jackie Brown is phenomenal. It's great. Now I also love that Ray, Brian has a pager and uses it really sets the stage for the times. I mean, did you ever have a pager Brian?
I did when I first moved out here was a runner for Universal Studios and so pre cellphones they had to pay just to come pick up pick up videotape pick up dailies Yeah, I also and that was very I wasn't early to the pager thing but we were early to the cell phone thing because they bought a cell phones as soon as they came. Well, the new Kia like the one that became like what everyone had in the late oh yes.
That'd be a late 90s I think I got my first cell phone 9899 But I love this one time in the movie. We get a tight shot of the pager. It's actually Jackie Brown special because she's got one too. And it's July 2 3:21pm. Please call which is P l s. All caps. Re Nicolette shortened it's just nic o le t at 310915930202555 on there, Brian. Let's call it now live.
People asked him rains here,
I couldn't believe I saw it on screen. I freaked out. It's so funny. Well, Ray is inevitably tricked by Jackie, and near the end. So at the end, her plan comes to fruition. It's a perfect plan. Of course, it's a great novel. I haven't read it, but I know his work from the movies. And of course, it's you know, they set it up and they knock it down and everything kind of goes their way. And Ray winds up blowing away, or Dell in Max chairman's office,
he's used to the point that he's the murder weapon honest because they gotta kill
him because Ornella knows too much. And now her story is open and shut. And everything checked out. I found Melanie with some of the bills that she didn't know, Melia was gonna get killed, but she just kind of took these Mart mills and put them in their hands. And of course, everyone gets killed. I mean, Louis dies, Melanie dies, they have the money. And then of course, Oradell takes the money and he's got the money on him. Now, I'm not sure why he brought off 40 grand to max Jerry's office because it was on him. But whatever. He had it on him. Sure. Didn't want to leave it at the house, I guess. But it all works out. I mean, it's perfect. Now, shifting away from Keaton for a second and talking about the movie. I really wanted to see Max, just give up the life and go and just go with Jackie. Yeah. And you know what he could have? Because we still don't know it's left to you know, our own imagination. Would you say?
Yeah, there's an aspect of they're set in their ways. This is a story about Yes, older characters. I mean, they're not that older. I think she's supposed to be in her late 40s. And he's in his mid 50s. But she's trying to get out of her life. He's not trying to get he talked about it. Like, you know, when he got when he did his hair, right, like he talked about exactly. He's willing to take chances, but it was a small chance to make him feel better about himself. Yeah, he knows that. He also works with these petty criminals constantly. Well, he definitely has feelings. On bonds. Yeah, well, he definitely has feelings for her. I think he can kind of see that. We're gonna go somewhere and blow through this money pretty quickly. And then I don't have my business anymore. There's a practical element to him. I mean, she's always lived in this world of crime, even though I wouldn't say she's really a criminal. You know, they talk a little bit about her past about her ex husband and him forcing her to do things. So she's using the money to get out. He doesn't need to get out of anything.
Yeah, he deserves a partner though as to she so if it's not together, they definitely had chemistry The moment she walks out of the jail, and the look, and you pointed it out right there. It is a movie about middle aged people. And that was part of the beauty of this movie. Yeah. Like, hey, look at these guys. You might call them over the hill in some regards. Oh, yeah. The same time. Fascinating. Yeah, characters. Just incredible characters. I'm so glad that Quentin Tarantino did this movie. And just quickly on the age thing, I noticed a flaw in this movie. Maybe you did as well. But Max, Jerry mentions he's 53 years old. Okay. Which is funny. And to me, that's like, I'm not too far from that now. But I look at Mexico. And I think he's so much older than me, though. But whatever, right? No, no, no, I'm not disrespects in
every I looked up how Pam Greer was when she made this movie. And she was 48. She's my, it's like, I like those movies about me. Real quick, before we move on that aside, I do want to mention, I think the best scene Michael Keaton's best scene is before the switch or the heist, if you want to call it goes down. He has to count the money in market. And so they are in. Yeah, going faster. And they're Jackie Brown and REG Nicolette are in a car. And it's right before she's about to go do the Big Heist. And she asked him she goes, have you ever thought about dipping in here. And at first we get to really learn this is how we know he's a good guy. You know, I'm saying like, he may at the beginning have been playing her. But I also feel like, especially since we've already seen the dinner scene, the date scene, if you want to call it because walls have come down and he is trusting her and you know, his great line. And he basically walks through like what would have to happen? I take 100 I'd have to give you 100 Or maybe we could take more nobody knows how much money's in here. But it's not a point of view shared by the ETF which is that basically back to the book. And that was like why did she ask him that? And I feel because what if he'd said yes, that would have thrown a massive wrench into the hole let's do it. Let's do this. And you're saying like yeah, so she obviously knew she knows the boys were yeah he's not going to write nope but it's a brilliant Mr. Act
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes because he's already looking at her wondering at one point yes, she just throws it out there like you know, you know what if so I'm not thinking that either it is a great Mr. Act, and they bonded even more they did
they did they have like a little moment. But here's something and maybe we could use this as a transition to get out of okay, well, no, I have to finish Okay, you got a favorite transition, we can come back to it.
I set a flaw and I didn't mean to neglect this. The ID that Max cherry shows Jackie Brown when she asked for his ID says he was born in 1948. Now there's a reference in the movie about it being 1995 which would have made Max Jerry 47 not 50. So small thing
maybe he's lying about his age to Amy.
Why would he add six years? Anyway says a small thing. And quickly I have two little times personal times with actors in this movie. It's just I gotta bring it up and played Winston.
What was the name? Tony Lister Jr.
He died unfortunately rest in peace died in 2020 at the young age of 60. To one day, I was in Beverly Hills walking across the street, and there he was Mr. Lister and his SUV and I kind of nodded. So I always remember him from Friday. That was a much bigger
president from fifth element. Yeah, he's that guy. He
is it. So there's that moment now? A bigger connection. I got to meet Amy Graham. And that's Heather Graham's sister. And when I met Heather Graham, Amy was with her. I was in New York. I ran into Heather. I was like, You're Heather Graham. And we had this like, 15 minute conversation. She's like, hey, come over to the table. Meet my brother, my sister. I'm like having an out of body experience. She was asking me about my I just finished with the back when I was at the festival circuit. And I'm talking to her about like Boogie Nights. She's like, No, no, I want to hear about your documentary about movieextras. I'm thinking what? And so I was on a I had a date coming and she was about to shop and Heather and Amy watched on my iPhone the trailer for strictly background in this restaurant. I'll never forget awesome. They were so gracious and sweet. Well, Amy plays Amy in the movie, different spelling, but she plays the Billingsley sales girl. Yep. So
I did not know that they were gonna go yeah, they are related. And I have anything else I didn't even know she
pops up and she popped in lots of things. Now she's directing. Okay, so she's had a pretty great career of her own. That's gonna give her a shout out. So all right, buddy. I want to say Ray was great in this movie. He helped Jackie really flourish. And I'm glad it was him in the in unnatural to so good on you.
I agree. So in out of sight, he's more of a cameo. He's, he's in one scene, basically. But he's talked about prior to that scene, which is very important kind of laying more of his character. But going back to the scene of them in the car, where Jackie asked him if he wants to take the money and run with her. And he says, No, I find it fascinating that we get a whole different layer of the onion and out of sight when we come to find out that JLo is character. Cisco, what's the character's first name? Karen, Karen, Cisco, also such great character names in these great Elmore Leonard notebooks. Karen, Cisco is sleeping with Ray who is now with the FBI. He has been promoted. I don't know if that was a promotion. But he's married. Yes. Not to the JLo character No. And her dad is busting her balls. And she will he will bust his balls later about that fact. And I find that so fascinating about the ray Nicolet character that he when it comes to his job, there is no gray areas. It's black and white. But he's married and he's cheating on his wife
with well, they are separated but living Okay. Well, he's so what?
That's what she that's what the Karen Cisco. That's what she says to her father. He said they're separated and the dad immediately asked, Is he still living with her? And she says, yes. So a very classic married man thing to say to his mistress, um, separated but I'm not really. So
no, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. And I thought
that was a great in his personal life. And they're all complicated characters. And I thought that was great that we got this extra layer to this character that was barely in out of sight. So yeah,
absolutely. Yeah. Marshall, who plays Karen's father who's played by Dennis Farina, rest in peace. We lost him in 2013 69. Oh, he's incredible man. He also said he calls him cowboy cop. Yeah, a cowboy. So much. Yep. cheats on his wife. Yep, he's
a cowboy cop. Yep.
So let's set the stage for out of sight. Give it the respect it needs much like Jackie Brown, out of sight came out in 1998. And the synopsis is a career bank robber breaks out of jail and shares a moment of mutual attraction with a US Marshal tool who has kidnapped now that says it all right there. It's great setup. It's directed by Steven Soderbergh, written by Scott Frank screenplay, and again, Elmore Leonard's novel. I don't know the name of this novel like I did, right. So satisfied. Okay, perfect out of sight. Quickly on the cast. George Clooney plays Jack Foley incredible Jennifer Lopez plays Karen Cisco, as you just said, Ving Rames loving. He plays buddy brag. Now of course being rams as in Pulp Fiction supercharged connections over here, Steve's on always loved him as well. plays Glenn Michaels Don Cheadle incredible. Maurice Miller, Catherine Keener plays Adele and of course, Dennis Farina, who I just mentioned, Albert Brooks one of my all time faves guy, just actor but a writer director as well. Plays Richard Ripley. And Luis Guzman plays Chino also fantastic. And of course, there's Michael Keaton as Ray Nicolette
Ancram credited, uncredited, that is correct. Yeah, I was like wait a second get paid either didn't want to get paid did it as a favor.
We tried to talk Soderbergh out of it mostly. I can't, I can't do that. I can't be in this. So there's that now it was Oscar nominated for Best Screenplay. And Best Editing didn't win either. But so our purpose is again to explore re Nicolet. And as we've just talked about, it is more of a cameo. It does mean something and he has a presence now I kept wanting him to be more, Brian, man, bring him back, but they do mention him a few more times. So his, his character is alive and well. But he did switch over from ATF to FBI, but he also wears the FBI shirt when we see him. Which is it? I mean, it's like f be its last Raizy and her father course Dennis Farina. Marshall ask if he has an undercover shirt as well that he wears on stakeouts, which, also and what was
raised? It's pretty great because it's pure Keaton that awkwardness like keys, you see him kind of take that in, and he instantly knows okay, this, her dad's gonna fuck with me like this, because they're meeting for the first time. They both say, Oh, I've heard a lot about you, you know, obviously from the JLo character he just needs is a very dry like, nope, nope, nope. I
don't actually I would I don't have that.
That's fine. You're right. You're right, though. He's wearing that he's wearing the motorcycle jacket. He's got the motorcycle helmet. And he's got all that. Yeah, he is. Yeah. You know, incidentally, that it's the same character from Jackie Brown. If you were to watch these movies back to back, there's no mistaking that it's the same person, right? And he probably
shot them back to back they come out and you know, Sunday Dears, they did bam, bam, he's the same guy had the same wardrobe. And now we know he lived in California and Jackie Brown. He is now in Florida. So maybe that was part of the FBI switch. And then I started to speculate what made him switch. It's not like when they get his guy
in the gun when she has the scene with her dad. And when he answered the gun for her birthday. She says that he got promoted to the FBI.
And I wasn't sure again if that's a promotion or maybe I guess
because it is here different complete different agencies. So yeah, I'd
be like if he was a DEA Well, I don't know. They're parallel is a lateral moves are I guess his promotion. But did it all happen because of him getting his man in Jackie Brown who was because of order? I've never thought of that, that he came out on top and Jackie got hurt. You know, he celebrated
is basically put a stop to a whole organization crime like gunrunning prime. So I didn't I didn't think about that. Jason, you're totally right. That would have been a feather in his cap for sure. Yeah. So yeah, maybe he always had his eyes on moving moving agencies. But for the story, he basically he's FBI so that they can basically put him trying to track down the George Clooney character. All the all the characters that escaped. He's just on the Taskforce.
Right? Yeah. And he is dating Karen. And we don't know where that relationship started. It could have started in when he joined the bureau. And then it's like, who knows? I would have loved to have any more scenes or dialogue or exposition that we could have gotten, but unless I don't I don't have out of sight on Blu Ray, I wonder if there's any deleted scenes or anything?
Oh, there might have been hardshell I mean, I feel like Soderbergh pitched it to Keaton. Like hey, come play this character again. Yeah, Tarantino was 100% on board with that he pushed it actually. And I think that they always knew it was a one and done kind of runner kind of thing that was going to be in.
Yeah, that's probably true. And I know I mentioned Samuel L. Jackson played or Dell. He does have a cameo in this movie, which also
uncredited and unpaid but amazing page. Both are unpaid.
If you've seen the movie, it's at the very end and JLo sets it up. So she's hauling off her man to jail and then here comes Hegira Henry, and he knows how to escape prisons is his specialty much like bank robbing is Jack Foley's and they have a long ride to prison and he's there for a reason. So you're gonna get the lowdown which, which means Is she really going to be with a fugitive in the future. Is that where we're going with this?
Well, so I'm glad you bring this up. Because this the whole crux of this movie, is you have a law enforcement agent falling in love with an on the run. bank robber, right. Yep. And this movie does not work. If you don't have a George Clooney and Jennifer Lopez, and that the chemistry is popping up off the screen absolute. So the premise is brought under pressure by all the other characters. Ving. Rhames is constantly like, what are you doing? Her father is constantly like, what are you doing? I mean, the best scene in the movie is when they meet up at the hotel and they finally hook on. So it's probably the reason why I got nominated for Best Editing because it's a love scene that's spliced into the scene of them discussing how this will work and the whole timeout thing that they come up with together. But it's so it's such a chemistry is so good. It's what it's what makes this movie so good. They hinted at
that earlier with the dream sequence that way. Yes, oil because you're like this. I see it. And then she dreamt it up her walking in on him in a bath. Yes. And then we're
there. And this is Soderbergh being brilliant, like they like him in Tarantino, or is that the entire time you're watching it the first time you see it, you think it's his dream, but it's hers. It's hers. It's easy to think that a cop is gonna fall in love with JLo. I mean, a criminal is gonna fall in love with Jayla, that's an easy, easy buy. It's hard to see someone like the JLo character that Karen Cisco, who is very independent, can hold her own. She's constantly hitting her head against the glass ceiling at the FBI. So how do you make this very strong female character fall in love with a criminal? Well, you catch George Clooney died of his charm. Yeah. But to go back to our one and only scene with Rayleigh yet. Nicola, Nicolette, sorry, Ray Nicollet. Once you set up the scene, and we can get into it, because there's a lot of what makes this movie work and some of that like side characters questioning the premise of the movie, in subtext in that scene that we can get into.
Yeah, it's true. It's a good point. And I want to make a point about Karen, because it's easy to say, well, she must be a bad cop. She is not a book. She's there to bust Clooney in the beginning. She doesn't know who he is breaking out of prison. And essentially, she does have a gun on him. And her father has his own. You know, he's kind of in what what does he do? Exactly. He's more.
She says, He wants to hire her as one of his investigators, investigators. He's
grown up around this. Yeah. And she's like by the book. So this also caught her out of nowhere. I mean, she's dated an FBI agent, try who used to be an ATF, who's a
good guys was Mary. Wow. So
yeah, there's that there's the cloud essentially available. Right, right. I totally agree. So this seat is while we kind of bounced around the one scene with our guys what we're talking about, right? Yeah, is the scene with the fathers there, too. So he comes in, and we recognize Michael Keaton, you know, Ray Nicolet coming in.
So you know, after the joke, after they break the ice, we do have an undercover t shirt as well, which is brilliant. Michael Keaton sits down. And it's the three of them at the breakfast table. They're overlooking the ocean. Karen Cisco has a mind. It's a small house, but it's a very nice little small house on the water and a pool, the phone rings, and it's our man, Jack Foley, George Clooney reaching out and her face immediately. The dad picks it up, hands the phone to her. And he goes, Do you know who this is? And she looks immediately at Michael Keaton as in like, the guy who's hunting you is sitting three feet for me. And I'm dating him. And we instantly she's already had the dream. So we know that she's attracted to him. She instantly is like, excuses herself and walks out and has
her allegiance shifted in that mode immediately,
because she had her initial reaction is to tell him and then she, she does it. And she leaves. Yeah. And then it sets up. I didn't notice this when I've I've watched the movie a million times. But it wasn't until we had to do this deep dive that I really watched that scene between Denis Rana and Michael Keaton, because so she gets up an exhibit herself. She goes up into the backyard to finish that conversation with George Clooney. And the dad starts reading a headline from a newspaper that says something to the effect of I was sleeping with a murderer. Okay. And then it gets to Karen. Yeah. And then we start to see the George Clooney character starts to charm, the JLo character and JLo is still being like, she tells him she's like, I'm here with the guy who is hunting you. And I can turn you in. And he basically says, You're not going to do that. And when she says why he goes, because you're having too much fun. And so he knows that he's made an impression. She knows that he has felt that connection. We cut back to the Father and Ray. And they start having this conversation about basically women having sex with criminals and the whole thing of basically, why are these women attracted to these dangerous men? Okay, and basically, the dad finishes reading the article and raining clips like yeah, I totally just busted this guy. And we the reason we found him is because we went to his ex girlfriend's house, and he had stopped by there to have sex with her. And that's how we caught him. Yeah. And the dad's like, this is what you have to do to hook up nowadays. And, you know, raise like, I guess. So. It's insanely good subtext to the phone call that's happening out by the pool. It's exactly what's happening. And it's playing into the fact that just human nature, that sometimes we men and women are attracted to dangerous people. And we do silly things when we're attracted to dangerous people and make maybe bad decision. Absolutely. And I was like, Who the hell knew that there was so much subtext in this little scene? I don't even know what
to say. Right. And I would also say that Ray's probably not that fun. guy, but he's not Clooney. He's now
he's married to his job. He's not married to his wife or his mistress
isn't even Yeah, he's not even married to his wife. Exactly. He should wear a fun shirt instead of FBA needs all the help we can get and a fun department. You know that even that date with Jackie Brown was more business and awkward. And yeah, I could see that she's looking for something else. And you know, that scene in the trunk, which we cannot not talk about, was just so beautiful. And those two are in the trunk. And then this the how the whole scene played
out, rather. And it's the genesis of the whole movie, lighting relationship. You can
tell like, they have no business being together. But they liked each other in that moment. Yeah. You know, that carries through the whole movie. So and she's chosen her side. Yeah. Not telling Michael
Keaton comes back on Yeah, she comes back and she's she's hung up the phone, and we're off to the races. She's going to chase him. He's going to hunt for her. And, you know, when they come back in, and this is why I think the scene the subtext gets pushed away is because then there's a button on this scene, when she comes back in that the dad then flips it. And it's like, it's almost like someone cheating on their wife and not telling them their wife because it's gonna hurt her feelings. And yeah, he's turned this entire thing of chasing dangerous men back to the Nicola character, and throwing it on him. And of course, the JLo character like, you know, she's like, Dad, she turns into a teenager again of like, stop messing with my prom date.
Yeah, exactly. But he's a dad and I push that
little does he know what his daughter's about to get into?
What's interesting in in her defense, and much like Jackie Brown, she has this interest in him. But in the end, she's still the hero. No,
I mean, listen, she's chasing him. She's also every time she sees him shooting at him, shooting at him and hit end when eventually hitting him,
almost using him to lead her to the bigger score all the I's and she winds up getting them succeeding. However, I was interesting that we don't see Keaton at the end. I would have loved to seen him come in the house at the end with all the other
cars. Yeah, it would have been nice. Yeah. They kind of nice.
Because the other guy, her other. Her boss was phenomenal. Yeah, he was really his name written down. His voice is so good. Yeah. And he tried to one up her like you stay here in the lobby, and she sees
you can constantly feel how annoyed he has with her. Yeah,
and vice versa. But I wouldn't like to seem kidding. Even at the end, just like oh my god,
it would have been good to hear I totally agree. i It would have been nice to see him. It may have like, bumped up against the Samuel L. Jackson cameo that's immediately coming out to this, but it could have been nice to see him show up. And then him get a whiff that something's up between the two of them, you know?
Yeah, like what's going on here? Because he's a good cop. He is a good cop. He could pop up in another movie, man. Maybe he's divorced now. And he's still got the bike. He's remarried. We don't know him. And Jackie Brown
seems like a character that's gonna be multiple divorces in his future. So
I know we talked about something before we came on the air was the fact that had this movie not been made and not worked and was a hit because I remember it coming out. Yeah, it was a hidden that paved the way for Soderbergh's career because this was the first mainstream movie that he did. I remember, back in the day, he was like an A tour
sexualizing video size video. When Sundance and Sundance he made like three movies or four movies in there like Kafka like some very independent, very highly independent, yeah, we show in our houses, and so he gets this and yeah, we don't have Ocean's 11 Definitely. We don't have Erin Brockovich or traffic and I mean, he's, you know, winning Oscars left and right with all of his actors that sort of work today. I mean, like it's amazing how this movie launched him and it's out of sight is we can argue about who what your favorite Tarantino movie and I to have kind of a revolving door outside is my favorite Soderbergh movie I love it.
I'd probably still say traffic because it just how it floors me but I do love this movie. And the oceans are fun. I know they totally especially the first one probably more than the others and sexualize is really yeah
cycling the videotape is amazing, but this one has, where the oceans ones are kinda like really good candy with metal calories. This one's got meat to it like there is how we just broke down a frickin scene that I'd never really thought about and like how how much subtext is in that? And plus, just to see all these guys, even Steven Zhan is awesome. And Don Cheadle he's Oh, good is
amazing, excellent by everybody. I mentioned Albert, all the way down the line. They're great performances.
This is the turn for Albert Brooks where he starts doing when he starts to do these these little parts, right Dr. Yep. 100 he starts playing
a darker character. Yeah, I didn't recognize him because there hadn't been a bald cap for some of the movie. When he first comes on the scream. I saw, you know, way back then I was like, wait, wait, wait, is that Mr. Brooks? Because it doesn't look like him. And then of course it is him. But even Nancy Allen makes an appearance. Yes. 80s named Robocop. And yet so many movies in the 80s. That was it looks amazing. looks incredible in this movie. So and the stakes are high in this movie, too. I mean, there's some thugs going around. People are getting killed. People are almost getting raped. I mean, just like in Jackie Brown, there is violence.
Yeah, there is and Soderbergh does a really good job. I feel like the violence and out of sight could have been in a different directors hands. It could have changed the movie. I mean, there's literally a scene where Stephens on is forced to go and murder a transvestite and the way that it is shot. It's still it's still shot, like something horrific ly bad is happening here. Right. But you don't you don't come away from the first half of the movie going like, I haven't been turned off by this. Like, it's all about, like, just how despicable this character I mean, when Isaiah Washington's character, how about Isaiah Washington in this little known Isaiah Washington at the time, when he finally meets Karen Cisco, he's legitimately like, I'm gonna rape you, right? I mean, yeah, and a very casual conversation. And she's like, No, you want to tell us what we tousled, also showing just how tough and fearless the Karen Cisco character is, and that's Yeah, absolutely. Cuz he's the devil.
And Steve is on this scene, his reaction, how visceral it was, how hard it was for him to go through that you got enough of it. Like I felt sick to seeing how sick and upset he was by being around those guys. I
think that seems less than 30 seconds long, and it's exactly all you need to see.
Absolutely. So bravo to Steven Soderbergh for an incredible film that holds up. So that's another thing. These movies hold up, man. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. And this was a good excuse to talk about them, because you don't see these parallels very often. So are these cross throughs. And so on that point, and you already mentioned he worked for free? I read that the idea to have Michael Keaton reprise his character of re Nicolet occurred after Tarantino invited Soderbergh into the editing suite of Jackie Brown to view all of Keaton's footage. Now who knows what happened in that conversation? Like, see how good he is he got to us and I could see Tarantino pitching it to Soderbergh
knows, he understands like a cinematic universe before the rest of us did with Marvel, stuff like that. You're right. That's exactly what I read. The Tarantino was like, you've got to cast them down. And so it was like 100%. Let's, let's do this. And you know, the other through line that I saw, which isn't mentioned in any of my research, but I do think it's a little curious that maybe this helped out because there were different studios producing these movies. Yes, you're right. So the books were held by different companies. And that's why this usually doesn't happen. That's why you don't have like an alias actor like Michael Keaton reprising his roles. But Danny DeVito, his company, names on the movie, yeah, produced out of sight. He produced Pulp Fiction a few years earlier. So that's right there is that we gotta go to the studio. And it's like, well, our executive producer has worked with both of these directors on their pivotal films. I have no idea of Danny DeVito had anything to do with this, but it's good. He was the only IMDb crossover between the two movies.
That's a great story written by our letter writer. Yeah. Now I read that Miramax Films own the rights and Ray Nicholas character, and due to the fact that Jackie Brown went into production first, and Tarantino felt it was imperative that Miramax not charge universal for using the character. And we also know we all know that Miramax is the house that Tarantino Bill wanted something that at least by this point in time, he'd already come out with reservoir. It had cash section, he had cachet at that point in time. So maybe all that at play, and it's like, hey, let's just do that. It's a cool thing. And then these two directors What a cool link. There
really is. It really is a cool link.
link. So I also read outside of that, that Sandra Bullock almost got the part of Karen Cisco Soderbergh really liked her. I really liked her. But he said, I spent some time with Clooney and Bullock, and they actually did have great chemistry, but it was the wrong movie. I'm sure they could do a movie together someday. Why through someday in there, but not in Elmore Leonard movie. Well, as we both know, they did make a movie and it's called
Exactly and it wasn't good.
It was it was but it's not. It's not this and Soderbergh made the right decision like the whole time I was rewatching this I was like, How is JLo not a bigger movie star. I mean, she is a superstar don't get me wrong, but like, she never did anything like this again. She did all his romantic comedies and I'm sure it bought her many houses all over the world, but, man, she really sunk your teeth into this character. You know, she did like 10 weeks of police training she knows how to hold the guns she knows the protocol she was it felt real. She's so good at it and she's just gosh they're both just so they're really good looking people it's not hard to watch the both of them
no, no what she was in Salina which I never saw was more of a dramatic role, which
is probably what got her this role.
Exactly. Once she did that. It's like oh, she's got acting chops. Well, I also wanted to put this in because this it's like a cousin to what we're talking about. But I saw this other movie by Steven Soderbergh. And I didn't mention a minute ago because I was saving it. But it's called the limy came out in 1999. Yeah, right to this came out right after this. I always loved the movie. Taryn stamp kills it in that movie. I've seen it so many times Peter Fonda's, it's a really great movie revenge movie a lot of the same guys rent Luis Guzman's and many, many more Nikki cat. But anyway, in the Blimey, there's this old footage playing Terence Stamp is watching his old footage or there's like a flashback. And it's footage from poor cow 1967 movie, Ken Loach, his directorial debut. So in the movie The limy. You're seeing footage from an another movie with Taryn stamp used as a flashback first character in the limy. And I never seen that done before. That's called that. Wow, that's in that photo. She had his baby daughter and his wife because I think it was like personal footage. So use two times. And I thought, man, leave it to Soderbergh to come up with that little angle and bring that in the movie because I was in the theater going, what is this footage from? Because that's obviously stamp years prior. So to find out,
I mean, various guys, there's cinephiles to the end. Oh, gosh, yes. They know exactly what they're doing at all times. So yes.
Any other things you want to leave us with? That was such a fun exploration? No, I
really enjoyed it. Michael Keaton crushed it. Going back to the two studios, I'm sure. You know, we were like, I wish we could have more scenes of them. I'm sure when they started negotiating since there was no pay for anyone's there like him for one day and one day only so we're gonna make it work but and where you want to make it work.
And that's probably why he didn't reprise himself later in the movie. And that was also in Detroit. They stuck him in Florida shirt. So it may be it was just like, yeah, logistically, he's out. Yeah, it was it. We just gave him a little brief. I
thought I saw that. There's no I couldn't find anything about Michael Keaton speaking on this. You know, there's no like, exactly. I thought that was a little odd that he hasn't. That hasn't come up in a conversation. junket. Yeah, good to have
him on Let's Talk series and get
it was a big deal. He's been sent twice now. I'll never do it again. Yes, yes. Play this again.
So hey, Brian, anything else? Before we wrap up?
Well, I don't know. Um, do you want to talk a little bit about maybe some other fun cameos from other films that are kind of like stuck out of any setup absolute? Well, I mean, my favorite actually, it's so funny because this Michael Keaton one's pretty famous, right? And so I found some countdown where it's like the top 10 things where actors play different characters. And this one was number one, but number two, were the Duke brothers from trading places. And then in coming to America, of course.
That was good to get there. Like they're homeless and they get the sack of money.
But that was great. But another one which is more recent, there's an actor named Damon Harriman and Damon Harriman plays Charles Manson. Twice. He plays him in Once Upon a Time. Yes, in Hollywood. He's fantastic. And then he's in David fit in the same year. He played Charles Manson and David Fincher is mind Hunter the second season of mine hunter. I haven't seen that I've seen every Fincher logo haven't seen my watch mine hundreds freaking Excellent. But I just thought that was so crazy. Like this guy got typecast as Charles Manson and played him in the same kind of thing like he, he's so
Tina's film. Oh my gosh, he's eerie. He's so perfect in that role. That's interesting. I love the Dukes. I remember that when Sylvanus because I love coming to America. John Landis directs and of course training places. So John Landis,
so good, so good. So those are some fun little other things that I found during research.
There's your tie in there. He probably said yes, let's let's get the Dukes in here. But that's really good. Those are good ones and I remember them a lot. I could use more scenes of the Dukes and come into when it was just enough it was just just enough
just to taste. Just a taste of the Dukes.
Just a taste. Oh, that's really good, man. Nice job. Nice job. So Without further ado,
please enjoy Jackie Brown and out of sight.
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