Right, Steve. Oh, sure. I appreciate you coming on the show today. We're gonna have some fun. You ready?
Yeah, man. Let's do it.
Alright, so before we start, I've got to confess, feeling a little guilty.
I like to start. I grown up with a Jewish mother. I like exactly where we're headed with this perfect, good. And Father for that matter.
Well, what happened is I used your line. I didn't give you a footnote. So I figured I would at least make documentation of the proper footnote and probably no better place to do it than right here. And right now. I said, What would make today's conversation a homerun for you?
You did do that? Didn't you say you did that so well. And if you did do that Nice job, didn't even catch my own stuff well played.
Listen, it was great. Like it as we were talking about earlier, I'll usually like to say start my meetings with what's the best possible outcome, and it's usually very well received. But I got it, you know, when you throw a homerun in there, that's like, next level.
Thank you. Yeah. Well played, by the way. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. So I will I'm going to start incorporating that more. And and, and if it's okay with you, I'm going to encourage other listeners to follow suit. Because it really, I gotta tell you, it sets the tone for a really good conversation.
For sure.
When did you start incorporating that?
That's a good question. I think I really started doing that. When we began, my team began offering me out, they kind of pimp me out and gave people the opportunity to have a 15 minute call with me. And so I realized quite quickly, that 15 minutes can go super fast, if you're not really clear on what your intention is for that period of time. So I started using it as a way with which just to get people to dial in on what was most important to them in that particular moment, so that we could actually tackle something and you actually experienced this when we had our call, you can get a lot done in 15 minutes, if you're intentional about it.
I love that how many wasted how much wasted time you think goes on in meetings?
Oh, god, it's insane. And I think part of the issue and one of the things that, that I've become really good at as far as just meetings, or even because I lead a lot of live events, and people come to the microphone. And if you've ever heard people ramble the right microphone, you know how that can go. But I've become really good at just at getting people to say stop, time out. I don't need your backstory, I don't need all the information. What's your question? And just simply by having people phrase things as a question, it changes the trajectory of that conversation.
Completely agree. I love that. And I'm sure you've heard of this company called Spotify before. But
what is that?
Yeah. Is the the founder and CEO, Daniel elke or ek forgot what, Ek, Ek, yeah, he's got a quote that I love this. And he says a great meeting has three key elements, the desired outcome of the meeting is clear ahead of time, the various options are clear, ideally ahead of time, and the roles of the participants are clear at the time. He's like, I think it's the largest single source of optimization for a company that make up meetings. I mean, he's all about just being clear. Time Time is, you know, being Oh, purposeful, too he's big on purpose. I couldn't agree more. And I have a feeling that you agree as well.
Yeah. And obviously, you got a look at what his stock price is and what mine is at. And you can see he's doing a much better job of it.
Listen, I'll take either one, I think yeah, I think we'd be okay. So there's so much to talk about before it kind of diving into a lot of the meat and potatoes, if you don't mind, for those who aren't familiar with who you are. And yeah, it's it's complicated. So rather than me bastardize it, I'd love to hear how you describe, you know, kind of what's your elevator pitch?
Yeah, for in this moment, the elevator pitch is different than it would have been five years ago. And certainly five years before that, and so on. But in this moment, we're really focused on is building our, our umbrella company, if you will, which is called ear control. And ear control is really an end to end organization that helps people of all shapes, sizes, companies, doesn't matter what industry they're in leverages the power of new media to create visibility and highly targeted leads and revenue on autopilot. And we do that for ourselves through the various tools that we leverage, including podcast magazine, our own podcast, a live event and in an app for the podcast industry.
We've done so many other things too. I mean, keynote speaker, you do high end coaching. Yeah, the whole gamut. Any reason you kind of left those out.
When in, in 30 seconds or less, it's hard to cover so much of what we do. I didn't mention the $55 million in real estate development and I used on liquor, calm and all that other fun stuff. But in this particular moment, our focus is really on creating a pretty damn impressive entity that we can bundle up here and put in the hands of one of the biggest four that's looking or someone else is looking to make a dent in the industry of audio. So that's, that's really where the focus is that,
Jeff and where's this entrepreneurial spirit of yours? Where does this come from?
There's conversations that often take place around whether or not an entrepreneur can be made or if entrepreneurs are born, I would be of the argument and of the mindset that entrepreneurs are 100% born. And so I am one of those types of people that really from as early as I can remember from the time of being able to pick up a shovel and try to shovel snow off the sidewalks and driveways or grab a rake and put leaves in a pile and put them in a bag. Just always been in wired to try to scratch a couple of dimes together and make a quarter.
And where'd you grow up?
I grew up just outside of Chicago. Very confusing. Actually. I grew up technically in Skokie, but we were in the Evanston School District. So all my schools were Evanston home of Northwestern University and other fun stuff. But again lived in in Skokie. Technically. So we like to say that we grew up in Skevanston.
That's great. Well, and there's no shortage of snow to shovel or leaves to rake. Negative.
Yeah, lots of that all day long for sure.
Of all the businesses that you've had, is there been one venture in particular, that stands out to you, which is either the most fun or the most profitable?
Um, yeah, I mean, let me just say this, because those are two different questions. Right, fun versus profitable. I will say that early on one of my ventures was actually a bit of both, though, certainly a lot more fun than it was profitable, which is that I actually opened a nightclub when I was 19. So that was how
were you able to do that? When there's liquor? You got to be 21.
Yeah, so that was way back in the day. And I had DJ in a lot of clubs and built up a pretty decent following. By the time I was 1718, early, 19 years of age. And I thought, you know what, let me try to do something here, in terms of opening up my own place, but obviously, at the time, I couldn't open up a booze club. So I went down the path of opening a non alcoholic nightclub, and wrote the business plan and raised money and actually got that bad boy opened. And and it was a really interesting endeavor, as I'm sure you can imagine, which is something being run by a 19 year old kid. But we ended up doing really well for an extended period of time and ultimately hit the bumps in the road with my manager and the guy who was the lead investor on that. And we went our separate ways. But yeah, that certainly was the most fun, no doubt, in so many ways. And we were making money hand over fist, and it was a cash business. So there you go, Yeah,
well, those days are done. You can't even get somebody to take cash these days.
It's really tough to do anything with cash nowadays. And ironically enough, my family was in the liquor business, which I ended up going into for a period of time. And so yeah, I mean, cash businesses are what kept a lot of those retail stores afloat for so many years. I mean, now you don't want to try to touch cash if you can avoid it. But back in the day, it was the difference between keeping bread on the table and lights on or having a business that just wasn't entirely viable.
Yeah, it's crazy. Do you follow the crypto space at all?
I do. As a matter of fact, I'm in a deal right now, where part of the financial terms on the sale of an asset will include some crypto So yeah, I followed a little bit danced around actually got burnt. Bad from the standpoint of one of the exchanges where I'd parked some of the crypto closed down and disappeared.
hurts. Yeah, but I like that you didn't give up I love that I there's a lot of times people that get into certain situations, and they're like, you know, I'll never do that again. And I like the fact that you're getting back or at least attempting to ride the horse. I asked people and they all won't do that again. I said, Well, you eat pizza. And yeah, pretty much everybody eats pizza. Did you ever burn the roof of your mouth? Yeah. Have you ever done of course.
Yeah, of course. You still is a million things we burnt our mouths on and we still eat that stuff. Because it's delicious. Just was too hot that one time.
Yeah. I'm glad to hear that you're still eating pizza or you get a shot?
Oh, yeah. Although, although my I don't know, whatever. They call it my hormone. I'm seeing some hormone woman, somebody who deals with my hormones, because I'm an old man now. So I gotta make sure everything's in order, whatever. But the first time of my life when I was 49. I, based on these tests that you run, I realized that with the results that she gave me that I'm allergic to dairy, and bananas. So my whole life I love bananas. I love dairy. Who knew? And these are obviously not good things for me. So pizza. It's one of those things I do every now and again.
Good, good. I'm glad to hear that. Well, you said when you were 49 if you don't mind me asking how old are you? You've got a very young And from the pictures I've seen of you, you don't look older than 49.
Yeah, I appreciate. So 48 and three quarters. Yes, but not older than 49. So appreciate that. Yeah, no, I'll be 51 in November. And now, I grew the beard out. So got the COVID beard thing going, which is mostly gray. So I think now it validates the fact that I have some wisdom. But if you ask my wife, probably not nearly enough.
I don't know. Have you heard of a gentleman by the name of David Sinclair?
David Sinclair, I don't know.
Yeah, he's the I think he runs genetics at Harvard, I'd have to fact check that, but he essentially runs one of the big departments over and over at Harvard. And his whole thing is fighting. He thinks agism is a disease. And there are some molecules that he takes that he I mean, if you look at this guy, he's 50-something years old, he looks like he's 25. And it's just a fascinating individual. But that's what it reminded me of. So yeah, you talked about maybe the difference between profitable and fun, how much has money been a driver for you, when it comes to these businesses, or just any of the ventures that you're participating in,
it was certainly less of a driver, I would say when I wasn't married, when when I got married, and then it's the things change, and my wife had a son when she was young. So when by the time I came into his life, he was already 10. Right? So just immediately have a wife and a son. And then we ended up having two of our own children's No, three kids. And I'll definitely say that the the responsibility factor, you know, kicks in 100 fold, right? I mean, you, you got to make sure you take care of those who are counting on you to take care of them. So there's definitely been a number of commodity oriented opportunities that I've pursued over the years. And that's what I call those, those businesses that are developed, like if you think about, like, I'm sitting here looking at my glass of iced tea right now. And you look at the glass, I mean, somebody didn't wake up one day as a 10 year old and go, yeah, I want to create a factory that makes these cool looking glasses, like, I highly doubt that was on any 10 year old list in terms of what I want to do from a dream job perspective. And yet, nevertheless, you can look at some of these companies like Sysco, and you know, many, many others, right to serve the food industry, and so on, that are just killing it. And they do really, really well. So there is something to be said, For commodity oriented opportunities, right? Where you're doing something simply because you can build a better widget, you can make some money doing it. And that's certainly not gonna sit here and tell you that I have been immune to pursuing that particular path over the course of my career, because I have for sure, but I try to incorporate more and more fun now into so much of what I do like our live events, we'll have a DJ and a dance floor. And we'll just do you know, line dances and crazy stuff. And you just don't really see that at a lot of live events as an example. Right. I mean, in terms of the podcasts, well, the people that we have on our shows and podcasts magazine and being able to sit down with people like Dave Ramsey and Katy Kirk and Adam Carolla, and Jocko Willink, I mean, like all these people that I never would have had access to before, you know, that's fun for me. And I really, really like being able to do a lot of that. So, you know, man, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that I haven't been guilty of pursuing those money oriented opportunities. But certainly as I get older here, I'm doing a hell of a lot less of those things that I don't find to be fun. Because the God's honest truth is, I've been doing things for a while that weren't fun. And now, and number one, I'm either selling off those pieces that I just don't necessarily enjoy as much as I used to, or having somebody else take on those activities altogether. But, you know, I see something on my calendar, and it just doesn't resonate for me. I begin thinking pretty deeply about how can I get rid of that particular activity?
Good, good for you. All the power to you to be in that position to do that. There's a guy that used to live in my neighborhood great guy and his father owned he worked for his father. I don't know if their partners or he worked for him. But they had a washer business not like your clothes, washers, but washers that go on screws. And oh, crushed it. I mean, they had these accounts in Manhattan where they're essentially, I don't know, it's like mob, but they essentially had to use his company. So he that would
be called the mob. Yeah. By definition, that is what the mob does. I'm pretty sure
yeah, they had the monopoly. And I mean, he just crushed it, but he was bored out of his mind, and he just just wasn't happy. So what points the trade off. So it's great to hear that you're pursuing things that again that you're passionate about. And obviously it shows up in the work that you do and the work product. I mean, your magazine is just top shelf. I mean, everything about it is great. Let's talk about that. I'd like to talk about your magazine and just I guess the podcast space in general. When did you get involved in this space? And what was the lore? I just, I'm killing myself for being so late to the game.
Yeah, no, I don't I mean, not at all. Because when you look at where we're at right now, we're just starting to see incremental growth, I mean, just day to day over day, month after month, and where we started at the beginning of the year in terms of there being under a million podcasts. And now there's over a million-six movies at 60% growth in the industry, just just in the last year, and even less than that. So now your timing is perfect. You don't kick yourself about that best time to plant a tree, of course, is 20 years ago, second best time is today, right? So there you go. Right. And so when you ask me about my experience in the podcast industry, I have to go all the way back to 2009, which is when I began shifting out of kind of that, that world of chasing those commodity driven opportunities into a world that was more fulfilling for me in terms of writing and speaking and mentoring and coaching and trying to help those who were just a couple steps behind me on the path. And so as I began looking at how I was really reinventing my life, and in the various ways over the years, it became clear that there was an opportunity for me to position myself as a quote unquote, reinvention expert. And so to that end, in 2009, we launched our first episode of reinvention radio. And so reinvention radio, the idea at the time was, we're going to bring people on who have reinvented their lives. So maybe they were a lawyer, and now they're teaching people how to surf, or maybe they were an accountant, and now they have a restaurant or whatever it might be, but really find these people who have reinvented their lives, and then are dismantling the status quo in that new area of expertise and focus. And so I thought, not only could I share my own strategies around how I can help people to reinvent their lives, but also bring on examples, like I said, of people who have done it, too. And so the first episode of reinvention radio man took place back in 2009. And I did it for a little while and kick myself, you talk about kicking yourself, I mean, I kicked myself because I didn't stick with it. I mean, I can't even imagine that there's probably less than 20,000 podcasts when I started. So I mean, just an incredibly. And that's one of the things that I will say too just in terms of my career, historically, I've been too early to things. And on a personal level, we won't get into that. But let's say it hasn't been great for my wife either. So that but reality is I've just been way too early to a lot of things. But we launched a store on compuserve electronic mall in 1993, one of the first fully functional e commerce sites in 1995, same year as Amazon. But I mean, man just didn't stick with it. And I think that's part of my blessing and my curse is I get bored and tired of things long before it actually hits the mainstream, so to speak, where the real opportunity lies. So yeah, man, off and on from 2009 till about 2015 when we really dug in and said, you know what we're gonna we're gonna release this episode of reinvention radio here on a consistent basis. And so 2018, we launched beyond eight figures. And then 2020, we launched podcast magazine. So it's been it's definitely been a trek.
Wow. And what's been your experience in this industry? What have you seen some of the obviously, you've seen it all, but anything in particular in terms of trends and just insights from the top level?
Yeah, for sure. I mean, what I'm seeing right now is, number one, if you don't have deep pockets, it's going to be increasingly difficult to compete. I mean, you're not going to compete with ESPN, you're not going to compete with Spotify and their original shows you're not going to compete with with Amazon who just bought podcasts and podcaster I think.com. But anyway, podcast.com and one other, you're not going to compete, period, end story. So how do you play in that game? When you're facing? I mean, look at Will Ferrell as an example. Right, when you're facing people who have these huge platforms elsewhere, and then are driving people to the podcast, just really hard to compete with. So if you look at Will Ferrell as an example. When he launched Season Two of the Ron Burgundy podcast, he appeared on Stephen Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel, and Jimmy Fallon, the same night, the same night. And how do you compete with that? You don't right? And so those types of celebrities, the big companies, the wonders of the world, and God bless them for doing what they're doing to push the medium forward. Conan and Trevor and Hillary and Michelle, I mean, like, all of these people have podcasts now. And and that's a good thing, right? I mean, it's a good thing because it definitely drives more attention more leads more listeners and so on to the medium which is important. But at the same token, you have this ascending spiral in the world of podcasts right where a show Like the Ron Burgundy podcast, as an example, will show up in the charts because they have a lot of downloads and a lot of subscribers. And then they have the ratings and they have the reviews. So as new people come to find shows, Well, look, there's the Ron Burgundy podcast. So now they listen to that show. Well, there's another download, hopefully another Subscribe for them, maybe somebody else rates and reviews, etc, etc. And so the popular shows remain popular, and they ascend up the charts. And it makes it really difficult for Mere Mortals to compete with that. So the trend, if you will, that I would suggest that people really look at is number one, of course get into the space. Don't Don't look at this as it's too late. It's definitely not too late. How many YouTube channels? Do you think there there are right now? Do you know? Do you actually I'm actually asking you that question. Do you know
I actually, literally just last week, it's like 72 million or something like that?
Well, active to the best of my knowledge active YouTube channels sits around 23 million in terms of active YouTube channels that produce content on a weekly basis. So it could very well be much higher, if you look at it from a monthly basis. So there, yeah, it could very well be over 70 million, you know, then you look at the number of websites, right, and blogs, and so on, there's over 3 billion sites. And so the point being in a million-six, or wherever we're at right now, there's still plenty, plenty, plenty, plenty of upside. But what you have to think about is, how are people going to find you? Right? And you have to think about it from the standpoint of how does a podcast complement what you do from a business perspective, either as the host of a show where you have your own show, or even like I'm doing now, right? as a guest on a show, there are two sides of the microphone, and both are available to you. But at the end of the day, you have to be really clear on how am I going to attract my most ideal prospects? My most ideal listeners, the people, especially from a business perspective, who have the highest likelihood of turning into leads and conversations and ultimately revenue?
Yeah, that's Oh, my God, I think it was Tim Ferriss that said was that you might have heard him before.
Tim. Yeah, you might have heard. I love to look him up.
Yeah.
He said, oh God life punishes the vague and rewards the very specific or something to that effect.
Yeah, Spoken like a champ with the show named the Tim Ferriss show well played. Yes, you can do that there.
Yeah. When you're him. But yea no, I mean, so again, and I'm maybe you're familiar with this, this is I remember, I don't remember the exact percentages, but something to the effect when there were about a million shows that actually, like what considered to be qualified as if you put out a new show every six months, or something was like, it was like, it was ridiculous, that even qualified and then something to the effect that the average podcast only has, like, 18 episodes. So of those one point, I don't know how accurate those statistics are today. I'd like to get your perspective on that. And then of that, like, how many people do you think really are gonna follow through with this? Because it is if you're gonna do it, right. It's time consuming. And and it's not cheap.
Yeah. Yeah. So there, there is something very Oh, called pod fade, right. And so when you look at the number of active, and again, there's, as you said, there's the number of available shows, and there's the number of active shows where people are producing content on a consistent basis. And so the reality is that and the numbers that I've heard, and, and again, this can certainly vary, but the numbers that I've heard, are that the magic number is nine, and 50% of all podcasts suffer from pod fade. And within a fairly short period of time, which is nine episodes, they actually stop producing new content. And so it's a very different discussion a very different discussion when you look at the number of, of active shows. And so if you think about it from this standpoint, and the current number that I'm seeing, is that of the one point, let's just call it 1.5 million for easy numbers here of the 1.5 million podcasts that are available right now. Only about 43% are active, right? So you can run the math on that. And I believe that's gonna land right around 600,000, something like that. Right? So only about 600,000 or so, of those shows are active. And then interestingly enough, only about 38 let's just call it 40% of those shows, have 10 or more episodes. So now we're talking about roughly 40% of 600,000 is 240,000. Right? I'm doing my math, right. So yeah, yeah, right. 40% of 600,000. Should be 240,000. Yeah, yeah. 240,000. So, now we've got a much smaller playing field. Now we've got 240,000 active podcasts that have 10 or more episodes. Okay, that makes it a little bit more palatable a little bit easier to say, Do I want to be one of 240,000 in terms of a podcast? Or do I want to be one of 23 million if we're looking at the YouTube channel as an example here. So Still, the odds are significantly better in terms of being to to your favor. But there's also lots of different ways to then leverage what's available to you via this medium, and not the least of which and using the Tim Ferriss adage here, and not the least of which is to get really specific about who that show is for and what the core benefit and outcome is for the listener who tunes in.
So true. What are you think someone's starting to show right now? What would you recommend that they do?
So we actually teach something called the new media trifecta, and we encourage people to leverage the new media trifecta, which basically means that we encourage our clients to aspire to have a brand, a podcast name, and an online course, that are all of the same name. And so the more that you think about what it is that you do and who it is that you serve, the easier it will be to try to land on a new media trifecta that works for you. So as an example, one of our one of our clients, her specialty is helping photographers creates profitable photography businesses. And so although it seems pretty simple and straightforward, at this moment, it wasn't so clear, and we actually had to push her for well over a year to move in this direction, we actually ended up branding her as the profitable photographer. And so what that led to was a podcast by the name of the profitable photographer, and then ultimately, an online course by the name of the profitable photographer, right. And so the idea is that anyone who is a photographer is going to type in photo or photography or whatever that might be if they're looking for shows. And if they are, in fact, in business and looking to boost their business, then they could very well stumble across this and realize, hey, she really knows her stuff. And I want to hire her to help me to create a profitable photography business. So it's just really important to remember that your goal is not downloads Your goal is to as often as possible, attract your most likely listener who will ultimately invest in a relevant product program or service.
Great. That's excellent advice. Now, forgot where I was reading it, I might have even read it in your magazine, where they said, the majority of listeners actually come from wom word of mouth marketing. And I think it was something like 88%. So to push back a little bit on the trifecta of having your name everything kind of being consistent. What are your thoughts on that word of mouth hearing about other podcasts through other people?
Well, let's talk about what word of mouth means. And so when you think about it, in terms of, if you are the host of a live event, and you have one channel, like if you could only choose one channel with which to attract people to your live event. What marketing channel would you use, if you're trying to fill a live event?
In one channel, meaning the internet versus like
meaning you can only pursue one marketing activity?
Yes, you're
gonna what would you what marketing activity? Would you pursue to fill a live event if you were hosting a live event?
I mean, the internet? I mean, I guess I'm not that's not the answer you're looking for. But that's the lesson.
It is. And even the dogs disagree with you. So but it is an answer. And they're right. And you're wrong, right, which is, the easiest way to fill a live event is by going to another live event to try to attract people, right, because people who attend live events, attend live events. Right. And so when you talk about word of mouth in terms of where our listeners come from, to find these shows, and to tune into a new show, a new podcast, word of mouth, from the standpoint of a podcast recommendation, where you're listening to one show, and they say, hey, check out this other show. That certainly is going to be the highest conversion mechanism that you can leverage. Because ultimately people who listen to podcasts, listen to podcasts. So I would need more data around what it means when you talk about word of mouth, but from from my understanding in terms of what really drives podcast listenership is the recommendation or the appearance of a podcaster on another podcast show. Right? And so like our coming together here today, will ultimately lead people to one of our shows or perhaps podcast magazine, or whatever that might be. But yes, of course, friends share what they listen to and what they like with other people. But ultimately that the highest converting strategy or tactic that you can leverage if you want people to listen to your podcast is to advertise on or be a guest on other podcasts. And that's the best word of mouth you can ever get.
Yeah, I would agree with that. What? What podcasts are you listening to these days?
That's interesting. So my wife turned me on to a podcast called something you should know. And I really, I really enjoy his cadence and the questions that he asks. And I just think it does a really great job of leading the listener towards answers that are really helpful. There are other shows that I like one of our podcast, magazine, category directors, has a show called men on purpose. And men on purpose is a really interesting show. If you're a woman, and you're listening to this, another show that you might want to listen to that I think is done really well actually just won a, a podcast. I think it's listener Choice Award, I forget exactly what it's called. But it's whatever the award is, she won this for her show called wickedly smart women, which is another great show. And believe it or not, I actually convinced my mom to launch a podcast about two years ago. And so she along with her friend launched a show called women over 70, which is all about aging, reimagined. And it's doing a great job with it.
That's so great. So it's really ironic, I actually just downloaded something you should know, haven't listened to it yet. But now will be the next in my queue. Sure. Oh, that is great. What are and then when you're listening to podcasts, what are the things that you're evaluating? It's interesting, right? So
as someone who is a host of a couple of shows, and we're actually launching a couple of shows now onto the podcasts magazine umbrella, I am very much along the same accord as you in terms of listening for production value in terms of listening for sound quality, when it's an interview show or a morning Zoo type show where you've got multiple hosts, I really do listen for cadence in the flow and how comfortable the listener actually feels. Being in that conversation, because I will say that there are a lot of shows that I listened to, and it just doesn't feel like the host or the guest truly has an interest in what the listener is going to get out of their investment of time and energy to be tuning in.
That is such an awesome takeaway. Can you expand on that a little bit more? Because I agree with you, I completely agree with you. It's and I don't know if it's just ignorance, not like a negative thing, just them not knowing that there is an audience that it's not just you and me that when you were talking, we're really there, there is a much bigger platform that's out there. So so you could expand on that. Because I think that's something that a lot of people that are listening could really benefit because now they will be interviewed at some point or another on another show if they don't have one already. And yeah, or a podcast host that's listening. I think that's that insight is so valuable. And yeah, like to learn myself, how
can I get better. So to that end, if you listen to different types of shows, so listen to something you should know, since we're talking about it. And listen to how Mike was Mike or others listen to how Mike takes you as a listener through the interview on the conversation, versus listen to perhaps the most popular podcasts on the planet, the Joe Rogan experience, right. And if you listen to Joe Rogan, you'll find it's a very different experience for the listener. On one hand, the intention of what Mike is doing behind something you should know is to really make sure that the listener gains immense value. by tuning in and again, investing their time and energy to be there. Rogen doesn't give two shits about what you do and what you get out of it. He literally doesn't care. You are a fly on a wall, listening to a conversation between two people whose lives evidently you must find interesting. But at the end of the day, he's not thinking about it from the standpoint of what can my audience get out of this. But he's thinking about it from the standpoint of I find this guy interesting. I want to ask this person questions. And I just I'm just inherently curious about who this person is. And so it's just very different when you're thinking about it from the standpoint of just having a conversation that you're interested in versus having a conversation and really thinking about it from the standpoint of what is the listener wanting me to do in this case. And one of the things that if you listen to beyond eight figures, which is one of our podcasts, I think that we do a pretty dang good job of asking the the questions that our audience is thinking And I say that because that's the feedback that we get
great feedback.
That's good feedback.
What are there I mean, something that I've noticed that I found when I was kind of analyzing some of the podcasts that I listened to, that I think made them good, or at least made me as a listener enjoy it, at least the one on one interviews are when the host can regurgitate back what he or she heard from the guest. Yeah, paraphrase to show that they're listening and really kind of summed it up sometimes in just layman terms. For someone that might be listening, and maybe it's something about signs that might have gone over their head, but they were able to really kind of just like I said, lay that landed cleanly.
And look, I mean, obviously that works in any conversation, right? I mean, it works in a conversation with your children, it works in a conversation with your significant other, it works in a conversation with clients. And frankly, it's a phenomenal skill to be able to leverage in the the conversation and the medium of podcasting, because because there are, it's a double edged sword. I mean, the beautiful thing about podcasting is that because it's an auditory medium, you can multitask, you can do other things while you're listening to the show. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, because you can vacuum or you can drive or I don't know, whatever it is that you're doing. But the reality is, if you look at brainwaves, you look at the pattern, you look at what's going on, I mean, just the bottom line is you don't have 100% of your attention on what you're hearing, you just you can't when you're multitasking by definition. So when the host re iterates and says, Let me see if I got this correctly. Or let's let's recap what we just talked about. It's almost like a pattern interrupt. And it gives the listener the opportunity to really get the cliff notes out of what was just covered. And and what you'll see is that the hosts who do that well really add value for their listeners in a way that's pretty difficult to match from those who just simply allow others kind of like I'm doing now to rattle on, right, because it just that's just the way our brain works.
Yeah, I think I don't know if you listened to Jordan Harbinger, but I think he does. He's probably one of the best at regurgitating and giving those Cliff Notes. That Yeah,
yeah, Jordans. Great. Yeah.
And it's hard. It's all like you said, that's a skill, that it is a skill that takes practice. So I want to I want to talk a little bit more about your magazine, tell people about your magazine, it's high quality, really good insights, great people good features, why should people read your magazine,
thanks for the opportunity to to talk about it. And we launched the magazine, because, number one, I felt like there was an opportunity here to create something that was consumer facing, most of what I've done throughout my career has been consumer facing a little bit of business to business, like we do with our coaching and you know, our year long type programs. But most of what I've done has been consumer facing. And so as I said, having been aware of what's going on in industry, for as long as I've been involved with the podcast industry, I've seen a lot of great things happen, not the least of which is events for podcasters, and communities for podcasters. And, and so on. So those are awesome. And I've got no complaints or suggestions for the folks that are doing things for podcasts, or they're doing a great job. What I didn't see was any sort of consumer facing publication or community or anything really created with the podcast listener in mind, something that would give people the opportunity to go beyond the microphone, and deeper into the lives of today's leading podcasters. And behind the scenes, if you will, the shows that fans love. And so knowing that this was perhaps the opportunity to create something around if you just think about Sports Illustrated, right, and what Sports Illustrated has done for the world of sports, or what wired has done for the world of technology, or what Vanity Fair has done for the world of celebrity, I couldn't believe that there wasn't something like this. And so it was more a matter of and and perhaps this was completely the wrong way to do it. Because certainly I was absolutely just fired up to support the industry as best that I could. But at the same token, I just felt like, Look, if I don't do this, someone else is going to and I'm going to kick myself 1000 times from Sunday just trying to figure out why I didn't pull the trigger on this. When I felt like there was a really great opportunity here to do our part right for the industry and really elevate the industry as a whole and that there's two sides of the coin with the magazine. There's the side of the coin where we obviously feature people like the Katy Kirk's of the world and Jenna Kutcher's and Dave Ramsey's, and so on. But what we're really focused on is also leveling the playing field, and giving exposure to shows that you haven't heard of, but absolutely should be listening to. And so right out of the gate, I knew we had to do an under the radar feature where we'd be reviewing shows that you should be definitely checking out and off the charts feature with our selections for various categories. And what we really wanted to make sure that we did also was created our own fan based chart of shows from the standpoint of every month, we released what we call the hot 50, which is the chart of the 50 most popular podcasts in the land as determined by podcast fan votes. So it's got nothing to do with ratings or reviews, or subscribes or downloads, which obviously would push you right towards what Apple does and what Spotify does. And you see all of the same shows, again, that get caught up in that ascending spiral. And the chart that we wanted to create, again, would give opportunities to shows that, frankly, may never show up in those charts. And that's what we found to be the case. Yes, of course, some of the more popular shows are on there. But we've seen month in and month out a litany of shows that frankly, you never would have even found unless you saw him there on the Hot 50 chart.
Yeah, I found some good ones through there that I'd never heard of. And I wouldn't have come and I just frankly, yeah, I just wouldn't have come across them. Yeah, result of that. What about some of the other materials? Like how are you choosing the interviews that you're doing? Or the insights? Is it a team? Do you guys vote about what we're gonna what you're gonna go after? Yeah,
yeah. So I mean, our executive team obviously sits down and we decide what's going to make the most sense from an editorial perspective over the course of the coming year. And we've got we've got our sights on on folks that we want to feature and like in November, we're in the process of putting together our November issue right now. And we're gonna it's our salute to the military, right. So in honor of Veterans Day, we're gonna highlight veterans who have podcasts and so fortunate to be able to sit down with Jocko Willink, right as an example there and getting access to Jacko, which, and frankly, just from a purely selfish standpoint, if I'm being completely transparent here, I knew that if I was going to continue down the path of trying to do things, in the world of podcasts, and the whole podcast industry, I had to do something different. Because as I said, as a podcaster, since 2009, off and on, and mostly on then since 2015. I mean, our shows reinvention radio, and beyond eight figures we were doing okay, but not great. we'd certainly have nowhere near the types of numbers, as you mentioned, Jordan Harbinger, and certainly not Joe, or anybody else that we've featured on the cover of the magazine not even close. And so what I become really clear on is that if you're going to do something you really got to figure out number one, what conversation do you most want to be a part of so that people are talking about you even when you're not at the table? And then number two, how do you position yourself at the hub of the wheel, in other words, so that all the spokes of that industry in that vertical connect to you and what you're doing. And ultimately, when you have that sort of leverage, and you position yourself in that way, then you become an indispensable piece of that industry. And so for us, podcast magazine really gave us the opportunity to sit at the hub of the wheel, if you will, where the spokes would no matter where you are in the industry, whether you're a podcaster whether you are someone who supports podcasters, it doesn't matter. You're going to want to be involved somehow with what we're doing at podcast magazine. And so now we can call Dave Ramsey's team and we can give a sit down and cover feature, I couldn't get Dave Ramsey on reinvention radio, I couldn't get Jocko to show up for Beyond Eight Figures. You know what I'm saying? So, there's so many reasons behind why we decided to launch the magazine, but not the least of which is purely from a selfish standpoint, in terms of not wanting to be invisible. I don't want to just be one of 1.6 1.7 2 million, 3 million 10 million podcasters. I want those 2 million, 3 million 10 million podcasters to all want to be a part of what we're doing here with the show. And then I want the hundreds of millions of people who love podcasts, to all subscribe to something that we're doing. That's what we found in terms of the solution, the opportunity here with the magazine.
Yeah, that's brilliant. That's the old adage, the fishermen. You go to the hole where they're going. Yes, you've created that hole. Oh, yeah. That's brilliant. And what's it like getting access to people like that? I think Adam Curry I think he was the original podcaster right. Wasn't Yeah, yeah. So
so there is Adam Curry and a lot of people refer to him as the pod father. That's someone that we haven't yet sat down with. We will Carolla Adam Carolla is the other guy that's been really early in the space. And so we had an opportunity to literally go into the offices of podcast one pre sale to live by live, but sat down with norm pattis, who was the founder podcast one and Adam Carolla came in and sat down with us. I mean, These guys are all just opening up their doors and saying, Yeah, come on in, we'd love to chat with you. And it's been a pretty incredible rewarding experience. And from a credibility and authority standpoint, if other elements and other parts of my business are helping people launch their own podcasts as part of a bigger initiative to really drive visibility leads in revenue. It's pretty tough for folks to compete with if you're going to have someone help you or you're going to have the team of podcast magazine help you launch a podcast or some guy who's got a show that doesn't even show up in the top 5000 of his category.
Yeah. Wow. So people that are listening right now, can they How do they get access to your services?
Well, I mean, what I would suggest that people do is I'll just give you a backdoor link here to join us for the the journey of podcast magazine. And so we'd love to have folks subscribing just grab a free lifetime subscription of podcastmagazine.com. And then the backdoor link is slash free. So just podcast magazine.com slash free. Join us for that journey. And then along the way, we'll certainly let you know, and the dogs will let you know, we'll certainly let you know about about other opportunities. That's the beauty. That's the beautiful thing about COVID. Right, here we go. We work from where we work, and we do what we can do
that the truth. Before I let you go, I'd love to hear about some of the events. That I mean, obviously, things have changed now. But when things open up, can you talk about some of the events that you've done, or at least some of the events? Yeah, you plan on doing and some of the goals with those events?
Sure. So we launched our first in person new media summit in 2017. The idea of the new media summit was we're going to bring in top podcasters, you're going to have the opportunity as an attendee to meet them, develop real relationships with them. And we're even going to give you the opportunity to take center stage to pitch them on who you are, and what you do, and literally get booked on the spot. And so that event, we have been personally responsible for over 20,000 bookings, on podcasts at that event. And of course, in between, I teach people how to really leverage and monetize the power of podcasts and just understand the business of podcasting and how to put this to work for them and their business. And so what we're doing in 2021, is we're going to combine the elements that we love of the new media summit, where we'll still have some of those elements with it, and combine those elements with more of a comic con ask fan focused event that we can really scale. So yeah, 2021, we're gonna do a much larger event. And reality is we're hoping to push two 3000 people for that first event.
Right? Where will you do this? Where do you think we're gonna be?
I think we'll do it here in San Diego. We do. Most of what we do is in San Diego. And so I think we'll I think we'll keep it that. Keep it that way.
Not a bad destination place.
No, not at all.
Not at all. Steve, this has been a great conversation. You do a great job. You're very articulate, you've obviously shared a ton of insights. I'm walking away with a bunch of takeaways myself, I've been taking notes. Like I suggested, you know, earlier when we spoke, and I just really appreciate your time. I know you've got a lot on your plate.