So we did about, we did 14 missions. And we ended the war in Germany. And waiting to get our orders to come home. These are the orders is old, so be careful with it. See my name on the bottom? We took-excuse me, we took our ground crew plus others that would want to fly home. Some didn't want to fly and that. But we took quite a few. The passengers are on the back sheet here. And that's as many as we could hold. Well, that
It says passengers right there.
Yeah. But yeah, that's so this is old. Now to date. See, it gives you the airplane number that we were taking back. That's the order, let's put it that way. And this is the airplane, the number of the plane, 44. That would be the year it was made.
'44
'44 then they'd go from there for- and most of the time you would- It was a big number, serial number, but they'd use the last three numbers if they were calling you out or something.
Just 598?
Just to shorten them up. Very few came the same number. And, uh-
So-
And that's my birthday.
You got- you got sent home- You received the orders on your birthday?
Yep. 20 years old. Marked it on here.
Yeah. So-
We were coming back for 30- it shows right there. We ended the war in Germany. We're coming home for 30 days rest and recuperation. Then we were going to- I was going to go on a B-29 because they still needed a tail gunner. And I would train on a B-29 because our 24s didn't have the range in the Japanese area.
Right? Yeah. The Pacific is...
So that's why they gave us the 29, see. But I'll tell you this before I forget. While we were flying in the last few missions, they gave us a piece of oil cloth, but the American flag on it with a with a safety pin. And now the one that's got- giving the briefing, 'Now when you get shot down or something like that, and you know where the German army is and the Russian army is, you give yourself up to the Germans. Patton will get you out. If the Russians get you, we won't know anything about you.'
Right.
Cold War was starting already. But that's the start of the Cold War. Now, we get when we get back home, and- and I started to train in B-29s on the ground.
I think you're you're getting ahead of us a little bit. I'd like to talk a little bit more about your your time in England. Um, could you- What was the name of the base? That you-
Rackheath.
What, what was it like when you first arrived there?
Very clean country. There was no, how should- brush or that around trees or that. It was cleaner than ours. Here we leave a tree- It go down, but over there they use it for, for fuel. The dead ones. I had a neighbor over here that he cut the twigs from the- from the woods, now this is before '44, and he his wife used to use that for cooking. It was a hot fire, quick, see?
Right. Yeah, the small sticks.
But in England. No, there was no junk laying around. Kind of old looking, at the towns in that. In the cities. Old looking. And it- now they were getting pretty- hit pretty hard by the Germans. So there's a lot of- we didn't see too much of that. We went to London and different things. We seen some of the- how should I say it- the buildings are bombed and stuff like that there, but they wouldn't even take this down to where they're really bombed out. And the Germans had those buzz bombs that they'd go so far. Now that's the rockets, the Germans had the rockets. They'd go so far, run out of fuel, and then (puff sound). That's when they say when you heard it stop running, you better start running. Because they were going to come down from th ere and then they would explode. V-2 rocket I- no- Yeah, I think
I think you're right. Yeah.
Yeah. And they're- there- A lot of Spam. Spam would come in, in big cans, square cans. And then it would keep for quite a while. Didn't even have to be refrigerated.
It's still that way.
And they they dress it up. We knew it was Spam and yeah, you're hungry, you ate. But then they had black beer in town. We went to town a few times. We didn't have that much time off. We all had bicycles. We'd buy them like cars.
Okay.
And they had these skinny wheels, in that time already. With the handlebar brakes.
Okay.
Now we had fat tires, good cushion ride. Ther was a name for the brake, you just push back on your pedals. When you want to go forward, you go forward. But coast- coaster brakes! You'd push them back and you'd have back wheel brakes. But then on the- on the English one, you had front brakes and back brakes, by the handlebars.
Right.
And you better get used to which one you press. Press that front, lots of luck. That was our transportation. We'd- if we went out that you're gonna come home in the evening, we'd wrap our raincoat and then have our GI flashlight hooked on there. And that we would travel. And yeah. But we'd trade them in then, if you found a better one you traded in and- like cars.
Did you? Did you go through many bikes? Do you remember any of them distinctly?
No. You'd just get a fancier one as you could afford it.
Oh, Okay.
And then when we left they weren't giving us nothing for them, the English.
Oh, yeah?
So we called in our, our, the kid that would come in and the mother or sisters or whoever would wash our clothes. And we asked them which bikes he wanted and take his brothers and sisters and took our bikes. What didn't get used by the kids and that we piled them up and set them on fire. Cuz of how the dealers were waiting for them, see? To resell them.
Yeah. (laughs)
So that's what happened to our bikes. Transportation was- steering was on the wrong side, which we never drove anyway. We had a chance at once to go down to London, Piccadilly square, that's where all the girls were, by the hundreds. Nighttime girls. And we had to go and see that. Some, took the girls, too. But yeah, it was Piccadilly square, you can look that up on your computer sometime, you'll see.
So what do you recall about your combat sorties?
Ah, it was- the longest trip we ever made was like nine hours. And to get a nine hour trip, you'd have to- they'd install bomb bay tanks, fuel tanks that would fit the- and then you couldn't carry that many bombs, but you could go farther and get back home. And they would transfer the fuel out of those tanks into the wing tanks. Because that's where our fuel was in the wings. And that's one time we couldn't smoke. Because of the fumes that were- when the fumes got around- or they figured they were all gone, we could smoke. Not only that, at 10,000 feet, you went on oxygen mask. People holler about the oxygen mask now, but we'd be on an oxygen mask with the oxygen. And for the microphones, you had throat mics. There were two buttons that would go onto the vocal cords, here. And then you had a strap around with a button, so you'd be on that and that'd be hooked up to the plane. Well, I'm going to show you something about oxygen. I picked up a- My brother and I took one trip to Florida we, we went to some airplanes factory that was full. Here it is. Now you'd watch this to make sure it blinked and you'd, and you'd watch, watch your partner or other people there then make sure it blinked.
Pick it back up. Like hold, hold it while I take a picture of it. Focus.
I'll show you how it blinks. I hope it blinks I'll blow in there to see. (Tries blowing)
I'm not seeing any-
Is it opening up? It's in here. (Tries blowing)
I'm not seeing any movement.
Not working anymore, but that's what it is. And that, by each station where you had like a small hose, like a vacuum hose.
Right.
Do you still use them in in the fighter planes because they're not- there's a name for it when they're- got the oxygen in the- Oh, what the heck's that name? The bigger planes all have that now you're on- well you're on oxygen. No masks or that, but-
Uh, pressurization?
Pressure planes. Yep. And now see when you get a problem that's when your oxygen masks come off automatically
Right.
And that's what this is. Yeah, so that's what I had to show you. but- yeah and- see back of the bomb bay where- I would sit back there and f- I want to get this damn, old plane here. And- (gets up to get model plane) It's kind of wrecked up now. I can get through there.
Oh, there it is.
This had a little crash, too. When I put it together, didn't use too good a glue. But see we'd sit back of the bomb bay. All the rest of the crew were up in here.
Okay.
And then Birch and I were back of the bomb bay which was- ended up about here and that's where we'd sit when landing and taking off.
So that was you and then the-
Ball turret gunner.
The ball turret gunner,
But all the rest- the other eight were all up in here. But see that- This is the turret that I was in.
Mm hmm.
Now you get those two .50 calibers- They're include- they're enclosed in the in the turret.
Right? Right next to you.
You know when a 30/30, you ever see one of those go off? Or hear it?
No.
What's the loudest gun you ever heard? But a .50 caliber is big because they'd have a lot of power, or powder in them. We, we were somewhat protected with our earphones and our helmet.
Mm hmm.
But even then, oh yeah, There was some Some racketing that turret. (hearing aid squeals) That's- I got hearing aids now, I've had them quite a while. But it's uh yeah, that's- Now see this turrett would go around. It's limit to work as far as it can go. And the guns are limited how far they could back down and up, see?
Right.
And then up here there was like a marker. It was a marker on the turret and there was a marker on the plane. When you parked it, you would watch that so could- with the, with the handheld thing you could get out of that turret and into the plane.
Oh, okay.
Getting in the same thing. And those doors would come around.
You had to align it just the right way.
You had to align it otherwise, you didn't have much- well I think I was about 130 pounds 33 pounds when I was in that turret. And he was- the one in here was short. Birch, he was short. And small. And you had to be small to be in that ball turrett. And he was crunched up. He should between- his site was between his legs. His legs would be up.
Oh, like like curled up.
Oh yeah. And he'd be shooting all through his legs but he could go all the way around or- then I'd have to make sure he got back into the plane. Cuz that turrett had to come up into the plane so it could land, otherwise it would scrape landing.
Okay. Oh yeah, I see it's basically on the ground right there.
Yeah. And so you know, 'Make sure you get me up, Joe!' Yep. We were good pals. Well, we were all good pals. But him especially because yeah, we were we shoot the breeze back there.
Well and that's that's one of the questions here. What what kind of friendships did you form and with whom?
Well, we were like families. We were like a family. We were close together to the officers. It was four officers and six enlisted men. And we were very close to everybody. Yeah, everybody because you- Yeah, we'd uh- talk about our homes, our families or whatever came up. Yeah, yeah, you got to be like a family. And you trusted each one. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
How did you? How did you stay in touch with them after the war?
The pilot and I got to be the best friends. Even after the war. Me, my wife, which she has been dead for 30 years, and my daughter would- We were the first ones to make the trip down to Iowa. I forget what the town was in Iowa, or the city. And we stayed there, while I was working, so I was- stay there while I was on the- How should I say? I'm looking for the word. When you got time off from working?
Vacation?
Vacation. Yeah, it's surprising all the simple words you get to lose them as you get old. I'm 95. But if I think a little bit I can come across them. But they have to be in a hurry I gotta wait for a while. But yeah. And he came. He came up to- him and his family came up to see my family once and then a few years after that, he called me and he said he's got bad cancer. My wife had died already. And he said if you can come up to well, know where lower- upper Lower Peninsula. I forget the name of the town. But he has to be up there for a wedding for some good friends. And he said the cancer is going to get me pretty quick. So let's have our last get together. Which I did. And we went down there. The nose gunner- and that was the only one that I seen after we broke up. I seen him once. In Ishpeming. He lived in Waukegan. I seen him once in Waukegan. I think that's all the time. I actually seen anybody from the crew. But we used to keep in touch. More so with our wives, they'd be the letter writers. I still got the- all their, their- What do you want to say? Where they live. In my address- the addresses! In the book up there, yeah. And finally that one ka-poots too as we grew older. I think- I know I'm the only last one left in that crew. For quite a while now.
So while you were in Europe, how did you stay in touch with people back home?
They had a special letter. All our mail was censored by the officers. Now the officers from another crew would censor our mail.
Okay,
And vice versa. So you wouldn't get into more- How should I say it? If you were writing a love letter or something like that, you didn't- they didn't want you to know what I was saying or nothing. So it's- the crews from another, the officers from another crew would censor the mail. And then there was v-mail. I, my brother in Europe. My brother Johnny was with the infantry there and he was, he was walking up from the southern part of Italy and, and he got shell-shocked. On the way up. But prior to that, we had a few letters back and forth. So he knew I was flying. I knew he was on the ground. And we'd say, 'Oh, those poor buggers down there,' and they'd say, 'Oh, those poor buggers up there.' But then, what kind of a plane? I said, if you see a plane coming with two tails on it, I could be in one of them. Because the 17 only had one tail, we had two tails. And forget there- one said he was sleeping when they woke them up, 'Johnny your brother's coming.' He's 'where'? He said, "Up there." The 24s, see? So we often joke about that. But he came out, he got the Purple Heart and a few other- He got a bronze star. I picked up a bronze star, also. It- but that was- mail wasn't that- they didn't encourage Well, yeah, they encouraged it. Because when you made a letter to your parents, the pilot would say I want to see those letters going to your mother and dad, so we'd have to bring it up to him. And if we didn't bring them to him in a few days, 'Where's that letter to your parents?' He made sure we wrote to our parents and our parents would write and back. But now they didn't just scratch out a word. You only had to write on the front page of the paper. Because they'd actually, to censor the words or that, they would take a razor blade and actually cut it out of the- of your letter.
They cut it out entirely.
Oh, yeah. Because otherwise you could do something with it and get that word. See, (indistinct) Yeah. There were certain words you weren't allowed of, or how should I say what you were doing? If it was whatever. Oh, yeah, they'd cut it out.
Wow. So I mean, I know I've gotten redacted documents before I could hold them up and see what was underneath them.
They'd cut them out. And coming back they'd cut them out, too. Yeah.
Was there, was there anything that you or other members of your crew did for good luck?
For good luck?
Yeah.
Boy, our ball turret- No. Top turret, he'd pray.
Oh
Whoo. It was a good prayer. We (indistinct) quite a few times. But no, he- we would always tell him, Forget the shooting and get to praying.' Get to praying.
Well-
Yeah, it's- not only that, but- I don't care what religion you had or you were, they often didn't have like a priest for the Catholics or whatever. Demon- denomination there was. I forget what they call them. But they would have a service that you'd go to pray prior to your, your mission. And there's not many that I missed. though, I'll tell you that. Yeah. Now coming back from a mission, they'd question you, interrogate you. After the mission to what you seen, or what you did or what. Not only that did give you a shot or two of brandy. Or cognac. Some of us drank and some of us didn't. I did. But you take that and it would more or less relax you and the questions- like we're doing now- they'd come easier to you. Let's put it that way.
Sure.
Yeah. After every mission. Yeah. Yeah. So what else would you like to have?
Well, before we before we get to leaving England, I guess the the last question is, um, did your, did your combat experience change you in any way?
Boy, I'd have to say- It made you, as young as you are, what life really meant. Like, see, I didn't expect to be 20. I didn't expect to be 20. And you more or less. I will- How would I say it? You didn't say, 'Oh, next week, I might be gone.' But you, you'd have that in your, back your head. I don't care who you were. Yeah, but we had parachutes. And we relied on them. That was one thing as long as I had that parachute, figured I could live. Bail out. Plane could get in trouble or that. And we had a bell there that the pilot would press when that bell went off, you knew how to get out of that plane. And once that bell rang you didn't ask who or what you just made your way. And now in those turrets I couldn't fit a parachute. They have backpack, they had seat packs. And it had chest packs. The chest packs, you could leave outside, and you had two hooks on your parachute harness that was always on you. So when you, if you had to take that parachute and get on, you clipped it on you. And you had it be careful not to pick up the D ring. The D ring is what opens up the parachute. You better make sure you've got the handle to pick up that parachute and clip it on you the proper way and then you- once you left, got out of the plane 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10, then you'd pull the ripcord. Never had to bail out. (indistinct)
Did you during training?
Well yeah, I think about 500 feet they'd leave you drop. And it was similar to. Not only that in the water, you just had seconds.
If you had land in the water with the plane. I forget how many seconds you have because it would break apart in seconds. And you- now if they train you if you bail out over water, because we had to come over the- what sea is there between-?
Well it would be the, the English Channel.
The English Channel. Yep. And you, you would bail out. We had Mae Wests underneath the parachute harness.
Okay.
And they were flat. But they had two co2 cylinders. They're like little bombs. Did you ever see them? And you'd, you'd pull down on them and that would release the air into your Mae West, your life preserver in water. Now they train us, if you over water, it's hard to see how far you are from the water. To tell you how far you are, so you've got more or less guess. When you hit the water, you'd have to release your parachute. Otherwise that would drag you down under. So you had to unclip your parachute. Drop down. Freefall, in other words.
Oh.
Freefall down, and then count. I think that was 10, too, and then pull your cords. And then you come up like a cork. Because that was around your neck. Never had to do that. But you had to do it in practice. Oh, yeah. They showed you what to do. Yeah, trained you well, let's put it that way. And you had to listen and you had to be good. Like the instructor told me you better be good. Better listen. Yeah, it's not only that the pilot would keep making sure you work good. All of us. Yeah. That's one reason he was an instructor at- forgetting the college down there. I always- I think it was I Iowa State College. He was a professor there. He was a professor. He went back to college when- when I met him he was still studying at- or not studying. Teaching at that college. Yeah. But he kept us in shape. Not only that he was- we were one of the first crews to exercise on that ship going over to England.
Oh yeah?
Oh yeah. Get up in the morning, do your exercises and the other crews weren't too happy because pretty soon their pilots were telling them better go join them also. And- but kept us in shape. Let's put it that way. Yeah, he was strict. Strict but not saucy. That's the wrong word to pick. But no. He treats you well lets put it that way. Treat you like a man. And we're still kids. 18 you're still a kid. 19 you're still a kid. But you grew up in a hurry.
So- I guess well then we'll move on to end a service. Where were you when you found out that the the war in Europe was ending?
Okay, see now we had from here 30 days. When the war in Europe was?
Yeah.
Oh, we were flying and pretty soon. Long story short, they declared the war over and then they didn't- We had to wait for these to come out. And that's when we knew we were going home.
Right. How long of a wait, was it for you to get that?
I'd say a month, probably.
A month? Okay.
And then we had, we had a lot of fuel over there. So we- our squad, our CO over the whole thing? Why don't we take our ground crew and the people who worked on the ground and take them on a mission like we would go? Show them what we did with their work. They got us ready for the mission. See, we wouldn't have to do anything. When we brought that plane back, they cleaned it, they had the- all your bullets all set up, your bomb birth. And it was all tested again. And they got us going. Not only that, and then the ones for the weather and all that. They'd have to give us the weather report and the briefing and everything else. So we fill up the plane and I forget how many times we went to shown the different cities that we, we bombed to show them what we did, because they were still there the buildings were still down, you know? Well, yeah. So we took them around. Because we had enough gas. We didn't know what to- what they were gonna do with it. So we used it up that way. Yeah. But when the ground crew knew we were- they were flying back with our plane, some of them- most of them never flew before.
Really.
But I'll tell you they went through with a fine-tooth comb. New tires, new everything. They put on new- they put on one new engine for us and the others were practically new. And yeah, a lot of them were sick. Paper bag sick.
Oh, yeah? That bad?
Yeah. (laughing)
I'm not very experienced flying, but-
Then see the planes now are a lot better. I mean, you don't get the action like we would. Especially that tail now. You got all the action.
Oh, right.
Do you know now when your flight now commercial, very seldom they'll put you in the back. Either the steward or something probably back there or the kitchen, whatever they want to call it. But that'd be in the back there because you get the up and down from the tail. You get rudder and they'd have to compensate for that. In those planes years ago was worse than now, see?
Yeah. Well the Liberator with the double tail, too.
See if the tail would get- I don't
or the rudder, the double rudder I guess, yeah.
But I mean, even you if you got a tail but you get shook up. The pilot tried io once. He came out of there real quick. Well, he couldn't fit in there, but he was back in there with the doors open. He- know- very few. I would of liked to get into the ball turret but I couldn't fit into that one. None of us could but our gunner. He was next to a midget. Birch.
So all right, so you didn't go straight home. You flew- You were telling me a little bit before. You flew- It wasn't a it wasn't even a straight shot back to the United States. You had to stop in Iceland. And then you stopped in-
No, no, not Iceland. There were there was two routes. One was up in Iceland. Further up. We went to the Azores and a few other stops. Some we'd even at- most of the time, we'd sleep at that base, but then refuel, we had to refuel. I forget what that route was called. But we took that route on account of the weather. Like I said the pilot and the navigator had to choose the route. By ourselves, you flew back by yourself. Not in a formation like we do bombing. You're on your own. Take your own route back. We landed in, in Maine, the last one in the state of- the first one in the States. And that's the base they have the B-24 and a lot of planes on right now. We landed there to fuel up. And then we went to Bradley field where we left our plane. Not only that we had to go through- when you check your over, coming from overseas. Put everything we own on the tables- Customs. We had to go through customs. Film they were- our ball turret gunner, his family was well-to-do but he had a good camera. 35 millimeter at that time. We'd buy him enough film and get it. All he had to do was take the pictures and get them developed and we'd pay him. But that was on 35 millimeters and getting off track a little bit. What was I talking about?
Coming back.
Coming back.
You were you had to make some stops.
Yeah, see, we landed Bradley field, left our plane there, came to- where's it Bradley field that we went by train or bus or something. And we were put, given our 30 days rest and recuperation. Then we had to go to Sioux Falls, the whole Air Force went to Sioux Falls.
Did you- On your 30 days, fid you come back to Mohawk then?
Oh, yeah. That's it. You'd fit it in there.
Yeah. How were you received? Like, did everybody, was there? Was there a homecoming event or?
No, because there was a lot of us coming back. Let's put it there. You're just one of a few coming back. Your parents and that were great. I mean, everybody was happy to see you. But there were a lot of infantry, paratroopers and that, so you didn't stand out too much because they'd be having a parade for every-
Right. And you didn't all come back on the same day.
No. But and then we stayed here. Now one thing when you came back, not came back. But when when you went on furlough or that you had to stay in class A uniform.
Okay.
He said, if you ever get out of your uniform, go into civilian clothes, if you're caught, they'll consider you AWOL.
Wow.
So you had to- not just the junky part of your uniform. Tie, class A. Class A and that's how you had to be all the time you were in service. When you got off the base, uniform of the day in the states get what I mean, after it came back, the uniform of the day. It was warmer then, short sleeve shirt, open collar, press down, no tie. You could have the regular cap or the forget what we used to call it like a V f on top. But no, you had to -oh, yeah, now I don't think they know what a class A uniform they mostly got camouflage uniforms. Which to me isn't right for- you see, all the other countries are dressed up class A uniforms. But not ours.
So, so you had your fur- or your 30 days.
30 days.
You came home-
We had- you came home and I found out how soon I had to be leaving here by train. Going to Sioux Falls, South Dakota, the whole Air Force was there. There were so many of us, we had to have passes to be out of our barracks. Out of our barracks, because there was no room for the that many people in that- I forget what base it was in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. Now we were going back to- I was going back to to study to be on a 29. So I wasn't there too long like that. But I got pulled out then. Where the heck did I go? Nevada, I think it was Las Vegas. I was in a couple of bases before the war in Japan went and- I think it was Nevada- I was- in Nevada I was at Las Vegas, Nevada. Yeah, and that's where I was studying on the ground to be tail gunner on the B-29. Never seen a B-29 but it was all bookwork and studying. And I sure wish I would have been able to fly in one. Not in Japan or over Japan or them, but just to fly one because I never was in B-29. Now, when the war ended- You got- to begin with our B-24 was put in mothballs in Tucson, Arizona. They still do that with the planes that are- they're still worthy to fly. But they're just keeping because there's new one that's taking their place. B-24s were put down there in mothballs. They could still- that plan could still make it from bases against Russia. Cold War, okay? Now, we thought war ended in Japan, we're going home. Oh, no. Long story short from Nevada I think I got shipped down to Sheppard field, Texas, where I started. And when you get called out 'you're going on this base, they're going down to that base'. Shepherd field, Texas. And there was another person that was- he was getting shipped down there also not from our crew. "Joe, what you hear about that?' 'Hear about it,' I said 'I've been there.' I said, 'Nothing but mesquite bushes and sand.' Long story short, I get down there and he was put into the- Where it'd have the clothing and that. What would you call that part of the service? And I was put into the mess squadrons. You wouldn't have liked that very good, for the food wasn't that great. Anyway, I had to go there. Reported into the main office, there was a tech sarge and he came in there from the 15th Air Force, which was down in Italy. But when he came back they put him there and he had a pretty good job there, and I said whoa. He said, '8th Air Force?' I said yeah. Oh, Christ, I said can you do any good for me, get me out of here. 'Why?' I said I don't think it's going to be any good. 'Yeah, yeah, yeah,' he said. 'Go down number two mess hall.' Now number two mess hall was the top mess hall of Sheppard field, which is a big field. It's still going. So it goes down there reports there. There was a 2nd Lieutenant and I'll never forget because he had his feet up on the desk and he was back with cap pulled down. I made a little noise, he got up. I stood up and saluted. 'I'm supposed to report, sir.' Oh, okay. 'Oh, 8th Air Force, Yeah. My brother was in there. He, he didn't come home.' Gave me the name. 'Do you remember him or seen him?' I said no, mm-mm. I said, 'Can you get me out of here?' 'Why?' I said, 'Well, I don't think I'm going to like it.' 'You stay here, you'll have the best job you ever had in your life.' 'What am I going to do?' Well, I got to be the the dining hall supervisor. Now, the permanent party- that's permanent party where you're assigned there for- you can be there for years or months or whatever, but your permanent party, you don't come out. Not like transients, be there for a little studying and leave to another base, you're there. So number two is the main mess hall. And he put me in charge. He said 'Eh, we'll put you in and easy job.' Dining Hall supervisor. We served permanent party on one side, the dining, big dinging hall. Kitchen was in the center. The other side was officers. And so, officers would pay a quarter for the meal, whatever meal it was, they'd flip you a quarter they'd sign your name. Anyway stayed in there and that's on my discharge. It's a- pretty soon I was there for a few weeks, and the mess sergeant, he was big, pretty heavy. He got sick and he went to the to the hospital and was there for a day and he they called out to the mess hall and they said, 'You're going to need a new mess sergeant because he won't be coming back.' So the same Second Lieutenant I said, 'Who is- who you going to drag in for mess sergeant?' Our names were on a board with all the personnel and they're like a little slot where you'd push their name in. He took my name and he said, 'You're the new mess sergeant.' 'Oh, well, I know what to do.' Anyway, as a mess sergeant- excuse me- in, in that position, you could name it what you wanted.
I had two cars. Two of the cooks, they live close to the base. And I said, 'Boy, do you guys have cars?' He said, 'Yeah'. I said, 'Could you go home and get them?' 'Yeah,' he said. I say, 'Well, I could use a car quite often. If you go home and you guys can cover for each other on the afternoon shift.' So they did that, but the cars, one of the '41 Chevrolet, black, one was a '40, Mercury, black. And down there, the sun would really deteriorate the black paint. So one day in comes a permanent party. Big guy. And he, he was a staff sergeant. I said, 'What do you do? You know, you have a lot of paint on you.' He said, 'I'm in the paint shop, head of the paint shop.' 'Oh, could you paint two cars?' 'Huh?' 'Paint two cars?' He said, 'Well they wouldn't look too good in olive drab.' 'Tell you what,' he said, 'If you fix them all up. So all I have to do is paint them. With that we had them ask them to send them down. We should all paint them. But you got to get me the paint. Okay. What's it going to take? What do you got? I think I got, come into the walk in cooler. You probably never seen it but the sliced baloney that comes sliced up all the time and is packaged. They used to come in a tube.
Okay, make sense.
And it was, and they'd hang it up by one end. And that would go on to a hook. Well, we walked into, into the walk in cooler, and he said, 'Well, what about one of them?' 'Yeah,' I said, 'They can pick that up.' I say, 'You can take it home now.' But he said, 'That's only for one car, you know!' So you could bargain, in getting things, you know. Bargaining, oh, boy. So that was my time at the- Not only that then- pretty soon it c- I'm still getting flight pay. Half my salary. By that time I'm a staff sergeant. That had to be about,, I think a sergeant at that time was getting a $77. A regular sergeant, then a staff sergeant, I think was getting $99. So we got half of that. You got about 140-50 bucks, which was pretty good pay. But pretty soon they took me off flying status. And then they wanted me to sign up for five years. In the base, was, there were talk that the base was going to be no more so I thought, 'Oh, if I keep on this job, I'd stay here forever.' But I said nope. I'm gonna take my discharge.
Not only that, see, when they, they kept us in the service. They kept us on, like our planes, mothballs. Didn't tell us that. No, because if the war in Russia got too bad, our plane was there, Joe was on the base, pilot was over here. All the whole crew was still there, and it just, you didn't necessarily get back, put back on the same crew, but you were a crew that could get that bomb- bomber going and you'd hit towards Russia. But in the meantime, then that cooled down quite a bit. And it was time to get us off flying status. So that's where I took my discharge then and I think it was San Antonio, Texas. And then they paid me to come back to Mohawk. (indistinct)
So once you got back here, did you go back to work right away? Did you go to school?
There weren't any jobs. There were very few jobs, because there's so many of us coming back.
Right?
Anyway, they paid us unemployment. 52-20 we'd get $20 a week for 52 days, one year. Not one year, 52 days. Anyway, I got a job with a- one of the logging companies in the area. My office was above the old bank down on the corner. And I did that.
And then a buddy of mine went to Lansing. His uncle was pretty high in the- I'm going to say the big wheels in- he said come on down with us it pays a lot more than up here so, me and my wife got married and we went down to Lansing. Worked for Oldsmobile. And they were making cars, pretty soon you got a layoff. Making cars, get a layoff. We'd have enough time to get back home here. Finally the next time they did that, I asked my wife I said, 'Do you think we should make the break? Where we go home and stay there?' 'Oh,' she said, 'I'd like to go back home.' I said, 'So would I.' So we came back home and stayed. Then I got a job with a mining company.
Right.
That's when I got with the security for the mining company.
Did you- did you join any veterans organizations?
Legion.
Legion.
Right across the street here.
Oh, right.
Yeah, I live down on the next street over here. Then my wife lived one door up from the church over here. So I've been in the Legion, in fact I'm the last one in- from World War Two that's in the Legion here in Mohawk.
Where's- Were there any parts of civilian life that were difficult to adjust back to once you left the service?
Oh, no. So you know when I got back with the company that's when they got me the house. Rented it, because 99% of the houses the different mining companies would build them like in Mohawk here. 99% from were build for Mohawk Mining Company. Mine was in New Alloez and that was a mining company, smaller one. C&H took them all over. So that's how they got me the house in New Alloez, which I had until I bought this one. They eventually sold the houses but they wouldn't sell the land and then finally they sold the land. Just so many feet on the surface, underground was still, is still owned by somebody else. Yeah.
The mineral rights?
Right.
Okay, last page of questions. Are there any lessons that you took away from your time in- in the service that you're, you still hold on to?
Superstitious.
Yeah?
13, I won't take your 13. Years ago when you'd go and get your license plate you know, if I could see that 13 was coming up some way, in a number or in addition- it needs to be lined up- I'd wait till somebody else came up and grabbed that number and then I'd get that one. Never walked under a ladder. What the heck else or- black cat, my wife would hang on.
Oh.
If one crosses as we're driving, because she knew what was happening. This boy was stopping. (laughs) Black cat.
I have a black cat.
Oh yeah, I stopped and she knew that, I wouldn't have to tell her I'm gonna brake, I'm not gonna pass that, but I'll (indistinct) now. Learn how to manage things, keep yourself clean. How else? Save money. Because- now money, see we were paid in cash in the service. When it came down for cash, the MP and the pay officer would come in and you show them your dog tags. 'Joe Enriettie' 'Yes.' He'd count out the money. Checks weren't, just in business. So you had to keep the money in a money belt next to your skin.
Wow.
Yeah, next to your skin. And when you took a shower, you'd have to take that into your shower too, because you're not in the shower by yourself. You know, there's about six or seven others taking the showers and there are toilets. But that's how you got paid and that's how you knew what you had for the whole month. You got paid by the month. So you had to more or less ration yourself out to what, what you had. Food.
Get along with people. Yeah, because you had to with so many. The crew was little but I mean the men you would go to the PX with have a beer or whatever you wanted. And, so I would say yeah, and then you got connected with government. How should I say- you made sure when you were 21 you voted. Now see- I wasn't 21 till I was home for a while.
Yeah.
Then you could vote, go to a bar and have a beer. Bars were great at that time, a lot of bars, and you could drink as much as you wanted. But if you got in trouble, you'd go to a little jail like in Hancock. Hancock still got a jail, Houghton's still got a jail. Calumet's still got a small jail, overnighters. Laurium, Ahmeek over here has got a little jail there yet. Eagle River, they'd put you in there. Justice of the Peace, you'd go to see him in the morning and- (smacks table) '$5,' I think it wasn't more than $5 if they were caught drunk or that, but you were gone the next day. But they were- they take care of it, quick. But you learn how to get along with people, appreciated what you got. Most kids right nowadays, they don't realize how good of a thing they have. A lot of them didn't earn a nickel, one but then they're 18 they're living on mother and dad. And some still do. But our mother and dad didn't have that much money to give to the kids. You were on your own. A lot of times most of the families, if you worked, you had to pay board to live at home. Then they'd give you so much money to spend, but you had board to pay. My dad had four kids and Ella said, 'Oh, Joe you're going to be a rich man. I don't think any of us paid board. No, I know we didn't. Yeah. And they'd work young.
Yeah?
Boy, they'd work, young age.
How does your time in the military impact your feelings about war?
About war?
Yeah.
I hated when- the Japs were bad for picking on- there's a different word for it. When they had you captured. Germans were pretty bad, either, but- you didn't get much food with Germans because they never had much themselves. And they'd pack you in. But the Japs were- I'm looking for the word. That's it- torture you. They were little people smaller than what the Americans were but if they got you there were, they were ruthless. And I think that's the thing I found that was bad in the service, if you've got caught by one of them. And we didn't know that much till later on. But later on, we see what some of them went through. And now as far as shooting somebody, I don't think I could shoot a person.
No?
But maybe he at shot me, maybe I should shoot back, naturally see? But a friend of mine, same age as me. He was in German and he shot two Germans and I thought, well- like I say he was different. He would get shot at, too. I was shooting at a plane.
Right.
I wasn't shooting at a person, get what I- Eventually maybe he died in that plane, too. But I wasn't- to go up there and, mmm. I hate to shoot a deer. I never shot a deer. Let's put it that way. Or a rabbit. Deer hunt. Rabbit hunting. No, I didn't. I didn't think they were hurting me. Well, I knew they weren't hurting me. I didn't want them to eat. I didn't need them. I didn't like to say I was eating rabbit or deer. So I mean, no as far as killing something. No, I don't. Even today I don't know. Killing is- I'm against killing, let's put it that way. But sometime when they're bad to you, you gotta- like the police now, when they shoot somebody, nine times out of 10 the problems we got into now is that they were under arrest and they tries to skeep- er, skip. And then before you know it, they're shot or killed. And that's getting into a different part of the story, but it's, it's part of life now that is turning our country inside-out.
It is. What do you wish more people understood about veterans? Either World War Two veterans or veterans in general?
Well see they left us finish the wars.
Yeah?
We didn't go till we finished that war in Germany. We didn't leave till we finished that one in Japan. But these other wars now, don't want to get into too much, but Korea, and then- you'd go so far and couldn't go any further to defeat them. So that's why we got left with North and South Korea, we got left with North and South Vietnam. This other one now, 19 years and they're still keeping, like 5000, family men. Most of them there now are family men. They got- When we were in the war, 90 percent of us or maybe more were single, so if you got shot and died, you were just one person. But now look how many family people they're taking. Leaving a wife with four or five- hell, there's one on TV the other day, seven kids. And I don't think they should have them into a shooting war. They should be like in the states, that if they want a job. But to put them overseas, and- doesn't seem to be any solution now, for the wars. They go on forever. To my thinking, but our times they left us defeat the enemy. And we didn't- how should I say it. We weren't ruthless to them. We actually built their cities and towns bigger and better than before. We didn't terrorize the people. They got left. Atom bomb and that well, they got killed and it would have happened to us also. I give Truman credit for dropping the bomb. Because either way we were going to get- both sides were going to lose millions of people. But that was the war.
Is there- Is there anything in particular you'd like people to remember? From or about your story?
I never thought of it till people like you came there and asked me for it. Yeah, and like I say, oh, I bet you there's four people. Tech was here. Two women. This one here with the how many pages. Somebody sent him. Now, something I found out. See in Calumet now, they're putting pictures of veterans up on a pole. And your name. And I always thought they had to be dead. To put them up on a pole like that. And before you know the service officer from the Calumet Legion, 'Joe, you're not sending in for your picture to be on a pole.' I said, 'No. You got to wait till you're dead.' He said, 'No, no, no.' He said, 'Would you have one put up?' 'Yeah, I have one put up, yeah, okay.' I said, 'Oh, by the way, when I see them there, but I thought they were- well they were all dead that I seen there. Let's put it that way. I'm 95. So a lot of younger ones are up there, you know. But I said, 'Oh, maybe we can put mine up by my store. Let's make sure we Calumet Furniture. Where Newman's is now. I own that building, finally. And he said 'Yeah.' So guess what? Pretty soon, he comes down, he said, get a picture that you'd want to put up there. So this is what's going to be up there. That's when I got my wings.
Oh, yeah?
It's over in the living room. And so then one day he stops here. And he comes in with a- I think there's six pages from the courthouse down here.
And I remember going in there. You had to come in there and I thought I just put my discharge in there. But it's got everything I did in the service. And I remember them telling me. No, that's in 1940- I think I got out in '45. Yeah, '45- That these are going to be put on microfilm. Boy, that word came up pretty quick. Microfilm. And I didn't think much about it. It was the clerk, he signed it. He signed the papers that I got back. And with everything from day one in such a service, until I got out that you had to bring your papers to the courthouse. And I never thought much about it. I thought by this time Hell, they're gone down the tube, because there's so many. It's all microfilm but I thought that'd be like everything else that would disappear, or they throw it out. But they all came in. And I got them there in, in my briefcase that I keep from my stories.
Yeah.
But so you can just BS so much. And you better tell the truth. Cuz sooner or later, it's gonna come back. Oh, yeah it's gonna come back too. You might forget a little bit, different words or stuff like that, but the principle of that story better be true. And yeah, I was surprised to get them back. As, on paper, they still got those microfilm down in Keewenaw County Courthouse. Now, not only that, the clerk when he got those papers, he was responsible for them. With his signature for those papers. And that's a long time ago. But he picked them up maybe a month or six weeks ago, and I didn't know he'd had them. Oh, yeah they're all there. Just like in Marquette, now. Remember when I said about that Sergeant? He worked in the airport.
Mhmm.
And I tell people I got inducted in Marquette. 'No, no, no, no. They didn't have that in Marquette.' And I couldn't prove it. But guess what's on my induction papers that I got down there? 'Inducted in Marquette, Michigan.' That come back to some of those people and bite them. But yeah, it's a- it surprise how, how should I say it, you better be telling the truth. You string along little bit but boy, they're going to be- So far, that's my story. What else do you need? Or you got plenty of it?
I've got I've got one last question for you. It's it's kind of a it's a big question is is there a message you would like to leave for future generations who hear this interview?
That they should be doing?
Or just just any kind of message that you would like to leave for them? You know, advice, or-
Well, I can see our country going down the tube. It's been divided. I'm a Republican, I (indistinct) my way but you can be a Democrat. Years ago, now, we could be Republicans and Democrats- good neighbors, good friends, good family, and when a- How should I say it? A presidential election came out, your side won? Yeah, we go with that, no problems. Good friends, do what they were told and everything else. But now it is so divided. And boy it's getting worse. And it's, how should I say it? I don't believe the election went right, right now, it's- how should I say it? 95 now, I still went up to our election board which is up in Alloez. 95 years old when I get in there, I know what's going to happen because it does. And I know most of the people on that board. 'Joe, hate to ask you this, but could you give me a picture identification?' No problem. Take out my wallet. Driver's license, got your picture on it. 'Okay, don't put it back, though! You're gonna have to show it over here, too.' I go over there before I get my forms and they get me really- and what they do. 'Okay, Joe, thank you. You can put in a wallet now.' And I say if everybody would have to be- it would have their vote cast like that, there'd be no way that you would say, well, it's, it's rigged or whatever. You feel good, even though that your party didn't win. But you would feel safe that it was done correctly. And in this election now, one boy, there, there's so much just not done properly. Before when one was elected, the other one say come in and we'll take over, we'd go over the books, whatever they do, and thank you they check out and they still be friends, but probably not happy friends, but it would go. So everybody figured it went legally, it got to be legal to run this country and, and you have to have police. Now, to my knowledge, I never talked back to a policeman. Never. Whatever they told you, I just was confronted with one police officer and that's probably eight years ago, coming from the vet's office for a, just a checkup. And I was taken a different route. And I had his little white pickup truck, Oh, that thing would go crazy. That'd be crazy bad. But not- If you got in the open before you know you're hitting 70-75. It was out of Iron Mountain. And a state police car came up quite a distance. And I had a fuzz buster. So I pop that out from the windshield and put it under my seat. And I said I don't know. He's on patrol, because he got his lights on. And I better be ready. So he comes down, the lights. Then he makes a U-turn, as quick as he could in back on me. And the light is on, the red light is on me. I pull over. He says, 'Sir, how come you didn't stop when I had the light- red light on?' I said, 'Oh, I figure you were coming from some- after somebody else or going someplace else. I didn't think you were after me.' 'Well, you know you were hitting 75 miles an hour.' And he says, 'You sure cut it down real quick. See, you must have good eyes.' Well, it wasn't good eyes, it was that fuzzbuster.
I said Where was coming from. And I was going to take a different- 95 or 35 I think it was to get to 41 just outside of Marquette. Oh he said, 'You missed that quite a way in.' He goes back with my license. And I said, 'Boy, this is going to be the first arrest or speeding of anything or that I've gotten. So many years old. He goes back in his car and he comes back and he said, 'Sir,' he said, 'Here's your license back. I'm not going to be the first one to give you a ticket.' He said no, I think it was 35. And he said 35 is back this way. He said I'll make a U-turn you will make a U-turn and I'll show you where to turn off to get that highway. Which I did. Get back in the car. He made a U turn I made his U turn follows him back. Guess what we hitting 65 in nothing flat. He kept popping, I kept going 65 pretty soon he pulls off the road comes out with his cap on it. Oh, he's going to tell me 'I thought I told you not to go over the speed limit. Well, he said, 'You go up here now and turn on, and turn off your turn there, and turn it- lot's of luck.'
65 is okay.
But I thought oh, he's going to say I told him not to go over 55. But that's his- Yeah. The laws, people gotta- How should I say it? You go by- go by the logic law. Like speeding and that, well, now, I think it's about 62 you can- but sometimes that's not good, too. But anyway, when a cop stops you, puts you under arrest. You're going to get a lawyer anyway. You're going to get booked and you better not- that's why they carry that gun. They carry the gun to shoot. But now that people aren't- they want to defund the police and I don't think we have enough. We got enough in this area. But if your take down some of those cities oh, boy, they're pretty rough. Not only that, they burn buildings down that they shouldn't and- got out of hand. Let's put it that way. It's got to get back into like we lived before. Yeah, and you got to have police, good police. You get a few bad ones, well, yeah, it's- and it shouldn't be. But they should weed them out right away. Yeah, it's government is- governments are getting pretty loose I think, not like years ago. But like I was saying before, if your friend was Democrat and you were Republican, after the vote came in you went along, you're still friends, you could do this and do that but now, holy- especially in the cities, it's getting bad. Both sides have got wrong things they're doing, but time we get together and heal the wounds because our country's going to hell, to my thinking. To my thinking yeah, it's gone down the tube. And it's gonna take a long time to, to get back in order. Now there's too many people getting paid not to work. Now locally. You see a lot of the smaller places or small outfit up in Calumet that they're adding on to, ever since the virus had started there's been a sign up there for help wanted and we get a lot of people here that aren't working most of these businesses can't pay the $600 a week, but people got to learn that they, you progress as you get a job. You get a small paying job you work hard to get a better one, more pay, and and you don't have that handed to you. You have to earn it. You've got to earn as you come up into life. And everybody wants to be rich. Nobody wants to be poor. But now, now, it seems like we're getting like the old countries. The old countries, years ago they had the filthy poor there was nothing in between up to the filthy rich. The ones in between in our country seem to be getting that way now. Seems like nobody wants to be a millionaire. Well, I would have given them- I would have liked a millionaire when I was a kid. But you still have to have low, in-between and we get into low one, you'll work up. You get to be better then there's others going to start, and they're gonna, if they want to improve themselves, they work- work hard to better paid, let's put it that way. I never had to backup for a paycheck. I always did what I was told. Tried my darndest to do the best. And guess what? Little by little I got to be, not rich but well, how should I say it? Well, I could buy good things and pay for them. And yeah, but now these guys down here want to move up too quick. Right? In simple words. You went to college. Now you went to college to improve yourself.
But now you're stuck down here because there are no jobs. But guess what? You're out there working yet? A couple of jobs right. And and you're, you're ready to step up. You've got the credentials to step up better when this thing gets healed over. This virus is- I blame it on China. China knew what they were doing. Why they made anything like this is terrible. What would they use it for? I can't see any good that would make but- chemicals are going to be in our next war. Big bombs and chemicals. And look how this, without China shooting one one shot, look how they crippled this country and few of the other good ones, too. I still don't know if China is in bad shape. Like we are here. Now. I don't hear anything about it and, uh. But that's my story.
Thank you. Thank you. I'll stop the recording here.
