My name is Catherine car. And this is season three of relatively the podcast all about potentially the longest relationships of your life.
I'll always remember it because he says your younger sister is supposed to protect her. Are you mad? Now they weren't impressed.
I'll be bringing siblings together to talk about the connections they have as adults, as well as what it was like growing up together. This week, we're talking to Leroy Logan and his sister, hyacinth Roberts,
you felt like nothing could harm you felt safe. It was how a home supposed to be really, I was a traitor. I was coconut. You know, I was everything that I could think of. But I also talked to them separately to get a more private take on the relationship. I didn't see him as a police officer, and I still don't, I saw him as my brother. And all I was concerned was that he has to be safe.
And our faith helps us to be discerning and really understand the challenges you face and how you get through it and to be solution focus, really.
And in a new twist, I'll be delving a little further back with the help of our sponsors find my past.
I thought it'd be less. But yeah, that's interesting. That's that's a new one for this podcast as
you have any reputation, Leroy No, I
think it just reinforces people's view of me actually,
it's a nutter.
Brothers and sisters are never straightforward. Ex policeman Leroy Lee, and nurse hyacinth grew up in en for Finsbury Park, North London, except for a small stint back in Spanish town in Jamaica, where their parents came from. Leroy saw it as a vocation to join the force, eventually becoming a superintendent in the Met. But this decision saw him abandon a career in research science. It upset his family, and alienated his friends. His own dad was a victim of an assault by police officers. When Leroy was just a young man. We talk about that about reenacting Bruce Forsyth golden shot about messy bedrooms and the joy of flashcards, as well as the controversial SASLAW a reminder. It gave officers in the UK the ability to arrest any suspicious person loitering with the intent to commit a crime that Leroy started by describing how he felt when hyacinths arrived. He was five.
Oh, yeah. little bundle of fun. Yeah, I can remember vividly. I mean, I was desperate to have a younger sister. It was an answer to a dream.
So what was he like as an older brother than when you were small, very attentive, actually.
We used to have fun together. We used to go on his bicycle and had the bar. I would jump on the bar, and we would like cycle around the world was our oyster. Wherever we thought was gonna go we just go. We had fun. I must admit,
Melinda couldn't afford a new bike. So I got the frame and family friend used to come round. Remember Fred?
That was dad's friend. Yeah. Uncle Fred
helped me up my bike. So I was so proud of you that these Mustang handlebars. And they got sprayed gold. It was a golden colour. I've rode it for years, even though everyone had gears and everything. It was affixed wheels you just had that. You can only go as fast as you can pedal. You know,
when you're describing riding around on your bike with him? Where are you imagining? What streets are you on?
Well, mainly is where we used to live in Corbin Street. We'd never had any plans. But usually we will out the house for a good while. We had some money in our pocket so we could buy drinks and things like that. So it's usually the neighbourhood. We didn't go too far at the neighbourhood.
So your childhood you were both born in the UK, right? And then you had a few years back in Jamaica, but you were tiny, then do you remember that at all?
Not at all. I was a baby. I have no recollection of Jamaica. Only what Leroy told me about that. When he was in Jamaica. They loved his accent, because he was English. And it just kept saying speak. Come on, speak again. So he told me about that. But from personal No, I have no recollection that I see England as where I was born. So yeah, British citizen.
My mother took my sister myself to Jamaica in the early 60s. And she was pregnant with my younger brother of nail. And while she was out in Jamaica, she gave birth. Unfortunately, a Neil didn't survive more than a few weeks. And losing him was very traumatic as you can imagine. I've never seen a small coughing before so when I saw his coughing it looks so small. You You know, I can vividly remember that
your mum went over there because she was homesick is that right? Well, yes.
I mean, when she came over to England, it was a big cultural shock. Because when I asked, I said, Why did you come to England? It's so great. She started to laugh. And she said, Well, we all came over here, with the prime objective of we're gonna stay for five years and then go back home. And but obviously, there's no family or friends. So you made your friends. And I guess she was homesick for family. We take that for granted. Now, you could just jump on a plane and your home for a couple of days and come back. But then it was more expensive. So yeah, she was homesick. She just wanted to touch roots. Again, I guess.
That must have been quite a trip for your mum to leave England because she was homesick and take you back to Jamaica and then to undergo something so hard.
Yeah, it was tough. I mean, it did have its massive impact on her. She had a couple of nervous breakdowns, because it was one of the reasons why we eventually went back to the UK, because it was so tough for her. We then got reunited with my dad, he was pleased to see us.
So that means then he never met your little brother.
Now, unfortunately, and that really had an impact on him. Not being there for my mom. And not even having a picture. It was a tough all around experience. But we, you know, became stronger and more united. And a tighter, a close family.
My dad, he was, would you say he would do anything for me and my brother, he just wanted us to achieve, you know, both my parents worked and how they saw it was our job was just to go to school and do our best. Their job was to do everything else. So they made it comfortable warm, you felt like nothing could harm you feel safe. It was how a home is supposed to be really.
Um, hyacinths said your parents created a very warm and safe environment for you to grow up in and provided you with everything you need. But obviously if they couldn't afford to buy a bike, then they were working really hard to make ends meet.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, holiday times. For us, we'd be either in dad's van because he was a delivery man. Or we go around to where mom was working. She'd always get a job local to the house.
Mommy used to be a press of samples, you know, like now, if, for example, Zara designed a new dress or something. My mum would be the presser to bring out the best in the material. So that when they put it on the model the mannequin to hopefully win the contract for the factory. Oh, I
see where she started this your mom? Did you quite like fashion? When I
think about she was very humble. She wouldn't go shopping for clothes. If anything. I took her shopping. But my mother's she had such a keen eye. She could buy underwear for me. Spot on. Oh, wow. I would say Mom, I'm a size 12 She goes hycet I know what size you are. And believe me, she was right every time.
Yeah. I was I was never out of socks.
socks and underwear guarantee. Yeah. Yeah.
And what was it like then going out with your dad on the track the work? Can you remember what that was? Like? It's like a
discovery, you know, you outside London, around the southeast. So you know, when you go to South End was our chance to say we've been to different parts of the country. So because a lot of our friends didn't know much more than London itself, if not just certain parts of London. So we were really fortunate.
Your sister said that she can't remember anything at all about Jamaica. Obviously. She was tiny herself. She was only one year old at that time. But it was quite a positive trip for you. I understand. Apart from that tragedies, the trip had some positive aspects.
While Yeah, that sadness and trauma was offset by an amazing sense of cultural immersion, seeing people who look like me doing amazing jobs from Prime Ministers to teachers, nurses, doctors, even police officers. I still love seeing the police officers because there's a red or blue seam down their trousers, and they all look very fit. They really look the part I suppose psychologically it had an impact on me. Seeing that because ultimately became a cop. But that sense of identity and belonging. And knowing if I can see it I can do it gave me a real sense of confidence to aspire to do the things that I believe I was capable of doing.
Which must have been in contrast to the community around you while the wider community around you and for North London, you know, when are we talking? Late 60s 70s?
Yeah, I must admit, it gave me a real sense of superiority complex and a lot of ways, because I wasn't going to buy into people defining me and trying to put me into a box. And I remember even when I was a secondary school careers, appointment, and I said, I wanted to be a scientist, possibly going into medicine. And this careers advisor said, Well, is that a bit too high? Don't you think it should aim a bit lower? And I went back and told my dad and he went, absolutely. It was beside himself. He had to calm down before he went to go and see the teacher and say, Listen, do not ever try and define my child, and what he's capable of doing.
And do you think I mean, this might be a bit simplistic, but do you think there's something about the mentality of someone who's moved country to kind of look for opportunity that has that passes on something to their children about? Come on? There is this opportunity here? So go out there and make the best of it?
Well, yes, I think it takes to great courage to leave your home at home that you aren't, you know, this is where you've been brought up to go to a foreign land and make it your home. So I guess they were inspired to sort of say, well, we moved from our land, Jamaica to come here. Now. You've got to try and do your best now. Because my dad said, well, the opportunities you've got in England, unfortunately, I didn't have in Jamaica. So do your best with it.
And was Leroy quite a studious boy did you follow in studious footsteps.
I would say that he was very, most studious and meticulous the way you studied. With flashcards and everything like that i personally, I'm more creative, and more visual,
the work ethics in Jamaica so you don't talk you know, you have to focus that ethics sort of live with me throughout my schooling. I wasn't a perfect student. Don't get me wrong, but I knew I was going to have to battle to be seen as good as anyone else. I'd have to work harder.
His way of learning is completely different compared to me. But it works. Literally the east of the West.
I sense that you were a very meticulous and studious older brother, she could remember flashcards, a lot of flashcards when it came to exams, I still
use them now actually, to give speeches and different presentations.
Don't knock them then. What can you do to Leroy Lee? What could you do to wind him up? Like the way Oh, listen, sisters can just mess
with his books. Move them do anything like that disrupt that. Or if he's getting ready to go out, disturb his clothes, because he used to go out with his friends and stuff like that. And he was to lay out his clothes on the bed or Preston Nice. Or just getting away. When he's getting ready to go out. There was a serious time. He's getting ready
to share the bedroom in those early days. And I must admit, my side of the room was very organised. And she would be coming on my side and how you got this. Got that and, and then when we had separate bedrooms, that was an Amen, I was so pleased to have my own bedroom. But yeah, she would stray in there, and I see things missing or out of place. And I knew she had been in there. But it was interesting, though, because she she's always been that sort of organic sort of person.
So how could you wind her up? Then you know how she thinks you could wind you out by messing up your meticulously arranged staff? How could you wind her up and say,
well, as the older brother, this is why I think we should do you know, that sort of thing?
I don't know. But sometimes he would come up with all different things that I'm sure or whatever. So I say yeah, okay, you got the height, but I got the looks. So
I could order around to some extent. But she got older, she thought, forget that good old amoeba. In preparation for this conversation. I remember. There used to be this programme called the Golden shot by Bruce Forsyth. And I remember playing this out and till this day, I am absolutely appalled by my behaviour.
EToken about the dark. Yeah, I remember, we was in the garden. And he told me to stand beside the shed door.
And I used to have these I don't know where I've got this dartboard and these and these were real darts and I shouldn't really admit to this.
As a child you don't really think about that. Darts can hurt you. You know what I mean? Anyway, anyway, I decided that he was a golden Shot,
used to put it on the shed and then throw darts
at her around her.
And she threw the darts and one went to the left one went to the right. And the one went above my head. And my dad and my mom nearly had a heart attack. Because it goes, Are you mad? Are you mad? I'll always remember it because he says your younger sister is supposed to protect her. Are you mad? No, they weren't impressed. They weren't impressed.
When I think about what I was doing, I thought. I mean, I was in serious hot water.
He said he got in loads of hot water. Can you remember what the specific punishment would have been?
Well, I mean, my dad would have probably sent him to his room. Denied television. Yeah, I mean, for me, I was in clover. Because I was innocent sister. But yeah, he was in a lot of trouble. Because my dad could not he says, he goes, Satan is a bad man. You can apply now, what would you have done? And things like that? You know, but we never thought that we just thought we were doing the golden shot type of thing. You know,
I'll just saying that. I've never admitted to that. To anyone's. So what publicly anyway, so yeah, that's a new one for this podcast.
You have any reputation Leroy? No, I think it just reinforces people's view of me actually. It's another
this season of relatively is sponsored by find my past the online home of the 1921 census. By 1921. People from all over the world had begun arriving in Britain to start new lives. People like the remarkable Dr. Harold moody. Jamaican born Dr. Moody graduated top of his class studying medicine at King's College London, and set up a practice working from home after struggling to find a job. Perhaps there's an inspiring story in your past, find out in the 1921 census exclusively available online at Find my past.co.uk. How do you think he would describe your character you've described his character really well as meticulous and sort of guided by the truth and all of these nice, studious qualities? How do you think he would describe you?
I would describe myself as a person that is loyal, loving. If I believe I'm right, I am not going to I'm not going to deviate. So people make classes stubborn. I don't call a stubborn class that has been how would you say motivated?
Oh, she's very strong and forthright. She doesn't miss about what you see is what you get with it. And she doesn't hold back. She's willing to tell you what you need to know not what you'd necessarily want to hear no nonsense.
To change the subject a little bit. How did you feel when your brother signed up to become a police officer? He'd been a research scientist before then. What did you think about the police before he joined? And then when he decided to be a police officer? How did that may feel?
For me? I saw police officers as I found them, if anything, not approachable, and the way they looked at you on the street. And that time, I'm a child, you know, and the way they looked at you with very suspicious eyes. And so when my brother said he wanted to be a police officer said what, why? And he says, Well, if you want to change something, you've got to be in it.
It didn't go down very well, because the daily experience of policing was bad enough. While I was still in the process of applying, and my dad getting beaten up over a trucking matter by local police officers, obviously made my dad feel very disappointed that I was joining the ranks of officers to beat him up for no apparent reason.
I didn't see him as a police officer, and I still don't, I saw him as my brother. And all I was concerned was that he has to be safe. Because he's the only brother I have. So for him being a police officer, it was his personal choice, but I supported him.
And obviously he knew we get stopped because of the colour of his skin being on the road every day. So you know, he felt that the he just police things will have to get through.
But the idea of his son joining not side but joining the ranks of the people who perhaps weren't sympathetic to him, that must have been hard. Oh,
absolutely. And I think he was also disappointed. I didn't continue with my my job as a research scientist at the Royal Free Hospital. So I was a bit of a disappointment for a few years.
Would you say that was brave of him? Oh,
yes. Because people weren't happy. My friends had Oh, you're brothers boo. Oh, your brother's this asset? Let me tell you something. I'll ask you this question. When somebody's breaking into your house, who are you going to call? Oh, the MP? Are you gonna call a police officer who you're going to call? And that ended that argument. Cell phones. But as far as I was concerned, you know what I mean, when we need help, you're looking for a police officer. And that police officer has a family. So yeah.
Yeah. So tell me about the event. If you don't mind. It was 1982 When your dad was beaten up by two police officers. And how old were you then?
Oh, it's till I was 2525. Yeah.
What was the first you knew of it? Tell me from your point of view, what happened?
Well, I was at the Royal Free because I've been working there for a couple of years. And I got a phone call from my mother saying that has been beaten up by the police. And we're going to the hospital with him to meet us there. And I'd actually walk past him in the a&e because I didn't recognise him because he was totally contorted and bruised, was literally black and blue. And I couldn't believe it. I was so incensed that I never smelled or tasted hate in a way that I did. And that I was able to turn that round. And I thought, well, there's no working join, just for the love and loyalty to my father. But that calling of policing stuff kept on nagging me and I thought I would still continue because I was already I had applied, I went through the interview, etc. But still didn't tell him because you know what had happened to him. But he found out the hard way when police officers knocked at the door of his house, because I'd moved away, but then I'm flat. You know, he called me up saying there's police officers at my door, saying that you're going to join the police. I said, Oh, my gosh, I meant to tell you that on the phone.
When you said when you looked at police officers before Leroy became one you sort of were a bit wary of them. Did that have anything to do with the way that different racial groups are treated by the police or the relationships between black communities and the police back in the day? I mean, not that much seems to have changed. But was there that sort of element of unrest in your thinking like, ah, Leroy, what are you doing? Are you sure,
I knew quite a few friends that were, you know, stopped and searched. And you heard of people in Broadwater Farm, you heard of all different people in different I had friends that lived in flats and so forth. And they'd come and say the police came, and how they were heavy handed. And they didn't speak to you with any respect. It was a police force. It wasn't a police service, if they spoke to you is very in a condescending manner.
It it strikes me though, like reading about your careers, I have a little bit with your family background, and coming from Jamaica and living where you lived and your Dad's experience and growing up as a young black man in North London and all of these different elements, that you're constantly walking really quite a narrow tightrope between people's expectations of what you should be doing could be doing, how you could be persuaded to fit in and make your life easier. But you can't do that. Because it would mean you'd have to deviate from your own truth. But the path you had to sort of plot during your career was a really tricky, narrow one. That's what it seems like to me.
Yeah, it was only tricky, narrows very isolated, very insular type of existence. You know, a lot of my friends and my close friends were saying, Are you? Are you going mad joining the police, and they persecute us like this? Because we had friends and family who had been subjected to the service law where police can arrest you on suspicion that you're about to commit a criminal offence. That's why we used to call him the thought police because you could read our minds obviously
was a traitor in some ways. Like if
I was a traitor, I was coconut you name it. I was everything I could think of some people threatened me with physical harm. That you know if I joined the police don't come around me else was so too out. Everyone was against me community. My colleagues when I finally joined, was my worst nightmare. But I had to do it. And despite what people were saying about me, I took care of my purpose.
That must be a bit of a funny feeling when none of my siblings are sort of in the public eye or famous or anything like that. But it must be funny when a sort of person in your family, your brother, or your sister is then out on the world stage in some way or vulnerable in some way, or making a stand in some way. That must feel weird.
I would say it's not weird. I am proud of him. I admire it. Because I said, what you do, I cannot do I know refuse to do. I don't believe you stand in front of a camera and things like that. Not at all. So I admire him. And I admire the fact that, you know, he speaks his truth. And it's good that he can articulate it in a way that, look, this is what's happened. And it's not right.
Your brothers sort of referenced his Christian faith quite a lot throughout some of the harder times he had when he was a police officer and whatnot. Was that a faith that you were brought up in at home?
Oh, yes. Definitely. My mother's faith was without unquestionable. And I admired it so much. You know, she would just say, you know, God is there. He knows us, pray, believe receive, you know, her faith was on unwavering, unwavering.
Yeah. Do you inherited?
I believe so. Yes, yes. So this sort
of spiritual journey, an anchor, to be resilient, purposeful and intentional to carry out what you want to do. And our faith helps us to be discerning and really understand the challenges you face and how you get through it. And to be solution focused, really. And I suppose we just mirrored what our parents their parents were very real problem solvers, especially that Windrush generation, having to get through so much difficulty.
And was that useful? Or how was it useful when things were difficult? Did the family get through that with faith together? How was that navigated?
It was faith because everything that transpired, God was there, because when he was being assaulted, and he was shouting out his name, a friend heard his voice. Imagine he's on a side road off the main road, and fortuitous, this person was walking nearby and heard him call his say, My name is Mr. Kenneth Logan. And he kept saying his name. And that same person came to Corbin Street, and knocked the door and says, your husband has been arrested. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that's got
the Stephen Lawrence murder and the domino detainer murder happened during your policing career, Leroy, and there have been endless inquiries and investigations into the matter and training advice and Black Lives Matter and all these different things. And only in the last couple of weeks, have we heard, you know, oh, the Mets going to get a new anti racism training, whatever it is module? Do you retain a sense of optimism after all of this? Or are you despondent that there ever will be proper change? Yeah,
I must admit, I disappointed but not discouraged. I get a sense that, you know, the human condition, whatever service organisation you are, it's always going to default back to what you feel comfortable with. Policing really hasn't come to terms with its race problem, since black people came over in the 50s. Well, actually, from the 40s, with the Wind Rush, and it, you know, that's why the slaw was such an issue for us growing up, especially young black men. And there's still an issue about young black men now.
I feel as though there's still lots to learn. And when you hear about another life has been lost. You asked the question, you know, again, you hear about these reports, and it's okay to have reports. But what happens after the reports was actions. Every time you hear something, you ask yourself automatically, if that person was why would they be treated like that? Would they be put against the wall? Would they be spoken to as if to say, they're not to human being? If I'm asking this question, right, that meat to me, there's not a lot of progress.
And I suppose my question was really unfair, because actually, I'm asking you whether you're optimistic because all of these things have seemed to maybe have stayed the same or sometimes slip backwards, but actually without people like you, Leroy, without people like your brother Hyson. You put all of that effort in who knows where we could have been now like the counter narrative that you could it could be a lot worse without people who've done all that good work. Yes,
but we We got to keep asking the question, you know, why is there a disparity? Why is that? Why? Why? You know, and we can't stop asking that question. But yes, people like my brother, if you didn't go into this, if you didn't go into change it things would have been much worse. No doubt.
Yeah, I do feel that I had to go into the organisation. To change it from within, there's no regrets. I truly believe that I had to do what I had to do. I've done it to the best of my ability. And my public service still continues. Similar to Hi, Cynthia, even when you think you gone into a different part of your career, public service still runs through our veins. And it's our purpose. And we'll continue to do that. As long as you've got health and strength.
It's really interesting the world to hear about your career in the police force. And particularly interesting to hear that you grew up in North London, because the sponsors of this season of relatively is fine my past or KDK, the family history experts who've just published the 1921 census. And in that sentence, it has family history, but it also has a sort of broader social history about what jobs people did and how they lived. And they've had a look for you specifically into the police force in 1921, when there were generally in England and Wales 73,156 people who identified as being involved in police activity, but in Islington, not far from where you grew up 888 people identified in that way,
But that's about that's pretty good for in terms of what maybe they're not all police officers, maybe they involved in security or safety in some form. But yeah, actually, I thought it'd be less. But yeah, that's interesting.
And one of the jobs I think you'd quite like this in 1921, the police force or the police officers were charged with locating and counting vagrants. And there were numerous returns for individuals discovered sleeping rafts in barns, tents and open fields, and all of the entries that sort of put into the census. One of them was filled out by Sergeant Henry Henry George Francis, where he recorded seven men ranging age from 28 to 70. And the residences on the 21 census were filled in as in a barn in the open field or in a tool shed.
Well, there was a lot of quite draconian Acts of Parliament in those days to keep people out of certain areas not to spoil how obstruction or willful and opening lewdly our seemly being in a public place and all these sorts of things. So yeah, it, it was pleasing was pretty tough. And even in those days,
not much changes. Also, interestingly, if you're talking about pushing boundaries, I thought, back in 1921, there was the sort of start of the women's police force. It was founded in 1914. You probably know all of this from your flashcards from your exams.
Exactly.
But in between 1990 and 1922, there were only 200 female officers in the Metropolitan Police's women's patrol in London. But in 1922, funding was cut and that went down to 14. So I think the police force can be a story of one step forward and two steps back sometimes.
Yeah. Remember, we had our first female Commissioner. It didn't end up as well as I think it could have been. And she didn't continue on to do us extend the contract for another couple of years. But I think women in policing is one success stories. So I would like to think it will be two steps forward. Three steps forward. I keep going.
Thank you to Leroy antisense and thank you to you for listening.
I don't have no I only call him Lee really only call him Lee. I don't call him Leroy. I have never called him Leroy unless he annoys me
to see some really sweet pictures of them. Or to catch up on codebreaking sisters Pat and Jean outruns amazing story, head to the website relatively podcast.com. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our sponsors for this season, a relatively find my past for digging into their extraordinary records and uncovering surprising and often revelatory family stories, some of which you've heard today by my past is the only place online where you can access the 1921 census. So if you want to start your family tree or add colour to what you know already, then find my past or co.uk is the place to do it. Next week a Shanti and Shakira aka Boosey on motivation and their famous dad thank you to Tony to tickle him for letting us use her amazing song. This is a pocket Production and Sound Design is by Nick Carter at mix sonics.com
tradition of love and hate. Same fireside this good traditional Love and Hate stem by the Fireside another way may for your father's calling you. You still feel safe inside on the mask too proud. The brothers ignoring you. You still feel safe. This was his was his heels used to his wild west Chanti can time still
