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Catherine Carr30min

Speaker 1

00:01

My name is Catherine Carr. And this is season three of relatively, the podcast all about potentially the longest relationships of your life,

Speaker 2

00:10

it was a big deal for him to tell our parents, but I

Speaker 3

00:13

was never going to be able to come out at home. I knew in my heart of hearts that it was always going to be okay.

Speaker 1

00:18

I'll be bringing siblings together to talk about the connections they have as adults, as well as what it was like growing up together.

Speaker 4

00:25

And I walked up to her in this bar, and I said, you know, I've got something to tell you. And she was like, Oh, my God, you're gonna tell me you're gay. And I kind of outed me. And I was like, Oh,

Speaker 5

00:33

if you'd have gone into my teenage bedroom, compared to my sister's, all the stuff on my walls were women looking.

Speaker 1

00:39

But I also talked to them separately, to get a more private take on the relationship.

Speaker 6

00:46

And so I like I felt a real responsibility to not bring to not bring more of that on on everyone at home because it was already so hard.

Speaker 7

00:57

I don't think she spoke to him for quite a long time. She didn't she didn't take it well.

Speaker 1

01:05

Brothers and sisters are never straightforward. This weekend marked the 50th anniversary of the first Pride March in the UK. Reflecting on that, and on some of the guests I've had on through the three seasons of relatively, I decided to hold the final episode of season three, with comedian Tom Ward, and collect together some stories of siblings who chose to talk about their identity on the podcast. First up is got one from season two, who talked about the safety of home and the love of his family. As a child, he was racially bullied and picked on for being overweight.

Speaker 3

01:47

They are and they were brilliant parents. They weren't conventional parents at all. But they were really good. And it was us it was us against the world really. And, you know, way before the pandemic, we talked about bubbles, we were in a bubble and it was a lovely bubble. The minute we left that bubble, we became very vulnerable, all of us actually. And it was very, very tough to go out and be picked on or bullied and think why am I so different? Why do people need to point out those differences so publicly and make me feel bad about myself? Because apparently I'm all right, because when I go home, everything's lovely. And I'm alright. And I'm accepted for who I am. And no one cares about my race or my sexuality. Well, at the time, I wasn't out, but no one cares about who I am as a person. I'm just me. I fit in perfectly in this running order in our family. But the minute we left the restaurant, it was different. And so that was quite a difficult thing to deal with. Because it was it was every single day you had to face the big wide world. Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1

02:41

It absolutely does make sense. And I think it's a theme of this podcast. So you say he moved out at 16 Quite early after you finished sharing your bedroom and that he knew he was gay but hadn't come out yet. And he needed the space as how you described it. What was that period like when he moved out?

Speaker 8

02:59

Strange because obviously, we've been sharing a bedroom the whole time. And it was quite nice. Because I mean, literally he was a five minute walk from the from the restaurant, straight up the Fosse road.

Speaker 3

03:07

I wasn't leaving the family, I was just going into the granny annex, I was just going somewhere that I could then, you know, be the person that I was going to be by which time I knew that I was different. I remember being a real genuinely equal combination of terrified, but also exhilarated by the freedom.

Unknown Speaker

03:30

Did you know he was gay before he told me he was gay?

Speaker 8

03:34

It didn't come as a surprise. But no, I think the last thing you do as a sibling, you know, you don't look at your brother think oh, he's gay. Or you look at your sister and think oh, you know, she you know, you don't have to grind your siblings or your family. We know exactly, no,

Speaker 3

03:46

but why would you? I knew that I had some be away from the family to work out who I was as a person. I was never going to be able to come out at home. I knew in my heart of hearts that it was always going to be okay. But there was if there was ever a 0.0001% chance that I might lose a member of my family then that risk was too hard or too high.

Speaker 1

04:07

Like a little chrysalis really you went to a little bit of

Speaker 3

04:11

exactly the butterfly the butterfly arrived or a moth no matter how you want to look at it.

Speaker 1

04:18

Interior Designers Edward Robinson and Sophie Robinson came on at the start of season three, like GAAC and caughlin. Edward was bullied as a boy and felt fearful that his identity would be judged

Speaker 4

04:31

I'm a gay man so that was probably quite a tricky time for me at school growing up not really knowing like Is this normal to think like this or to feel like this and I remember thought of things like fencing or games teacher I think everybody fancies their game teacher but Mr. Thomas that my secondary school was particularly hot in his brightly coloured shell suits

Unknown Speaker

04:54

coming back in fashion now, Mr. Fashion Yeah,

Speaker 4

04:57

exactly. But I think even that and that was you know, it's not struggle of I'm liking people, but I know it's wrong. Or it's not wrong, but at the time you think it is because you get singled out as being a bit of puff or whatever it is horrible words that kids use.

Speaker 1

05:12

His sister Sophie was the first person Edward came out to having stood up to him in the playground, she is still very protective. I

Speaker 2

05:21

couldn't remember it really well. It was a New Year's Eve party in London. And he'd come along with a group of my friends for some New Year's Eve party. And it was, you know, two in the morning after quite a few

Speaker 4

05:30

glasses of fears. I think it was New Year 2000. She was living in Elephant Castle. And I was with a gay friend of mine who was out Lee gay, but I wasn't. My friend said you just got to tell the sister now's a perfect time. And I walked up to her in this bar. And I said, you know, I've got something to tell you. And she was like, Oh, my God, you're gonna tell me you're gay. And I kind of outed me. And I was like, oh,

Speaker 2

05:53

and and he sort of said, oh, you know, I'm gay. And I was like, Yeah, I know you are. That's fine. But of an anti climax. You stole his thunder? Yes, I know. You are and you know, whatever.

Speaker 4

06:07

I didn't even get the chance. And she said, oh, you should tell mom and dad, but they know anyway. And I can literally was just like, Oh my God, my whole world just sort of felt folded in on myself. Because I was just like, how can they? No, I, I kept it. So you know, I kept the secret. So well.

Speaker 1

06:22

But are you saying that with a slight wry smile, Edward? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4

06:26

I mean, you know, I think the mothers always know. And dad knew it was just never really talked about.

Speaker 2

06:31

It was a big deal for him to tell our parents. And, you know, I really felt for him for that. And I was really willing him to do it. But it took a It took years. I think my

Speaker 4

06:45

mom did ask me at a young age at college, and I can flatly denied it, totally denied it and said, How could she have thought of something so disgusting, and all this sort of thing. But I think at the time, I was just split like, it was my little secret. And maybe I hadn't quite come to terms with it anyway. So I wasn't really sure.

Speaker 2

07:02

I mean, it's still at that time where I didn't really know any gay people. So a lot more open and accepted and talked about and visible. Now. I think that it was in the 90s. And I remember sort of thinking there is no, because I think I was frightened deep down of what that would mean for him. The disadvantages and the prejudice that that would, you know, having already defended him for being bullied most of his school life thinking on? Hopefully not that not with any personal prejudice, just three protective feelings. I think we need to be vulnerable, do you? Exactly. I think that's exactly what it was. So we really talk about it.

Speaker 4

07:42

I told dad, in a very strange occasion, we were on a rally in Wales in a car rally. Yeah. As you do

Unknown Speaker

07:52

your moments, Millennium rally? Well, because Sophie

Speaker 4

07:55

had said, so if you said, Oh, well, Dad's going to ask you if you don't tell him. And there might be this weekend. And I was like, I need to get in there. First. I don't want him to ask me because I deny it. So I will in this rally stage. It was about three in the morning. And we were just about to get to the starting line. And we're just chatting away and sharing a cigarette and that kind of thing. And I said, and he actually brought it up. He was like, oh, you know, how's college? And has he loved life? And he's seen anybody and I was kind of like, no, no. And he's like, are you seeing any girls? I was like, No, you see any boys? I was like, No. And then it all came out. It was actually a really lovely conversation. He was like, you know, wherever you are, and whoever you're going to be, I love you still. And it's actually a really bizarre conversation. And then And then before you know it, there was a guy outside saying 54321 Go and then it was like 80 miles an hour down or down a racetrack

Speaker 1

08:47

perfect. For the follow on conversation. Perfect.

Speaker 4

08:51

Get out. I mean, it was pretty, it was just very bizarre occasion and actually does been great. You know, he's he's kind of embraced it and he understands, you know, just wants to be happy for us all, you know.

Speaker 1

09:02

Yeah. And I wonder when you're thinking about your brother now, obviously, things have moved on enormously. And he's, as you say, out and very proud of his identity. Do you still reserve a little bit of that protective tiger or the sister for him?

Speaker 2

09:17

Yeah. 100% Yeah, don't cross my brother man. I'm coming for you.

Speaker 1

09:25

Labour MP Angela Eagle. Like her twin Maria was more into chess and revising than parties and crushes as a school girl.

Speaker 5

09:34

And I sort of had my sort of teenage times slightly later when I was around 1819 got into the pretenders went round music things like that, but I never did the sort of crushes parties thing really. I was too busy studying.

Speaker 1

09:50

And when did you know you were gay? And when did that all become something that you could kind of enjoy and explore.

Speaker 5

09:59

I suppose I have If you'd have gone into my teenage bedroom compared to my sisters, although we did share for many, many years, because we didn't have spare bedrooms, all the stuff on my walls were women looking back. And all Maria had all sorts of men and I had all women. So I think the clues were there quite, quite early on. But that side of me wasn't something that I was that. You know, I wanted to do other things before I, before I sort of explored any of that I didn't feel a great need to, but probably, you know, very early 20s Probably.

Unknown Speaker

10:37

Was that ever an issue? Or was it just No,

Speaker 5

10:38

never, never an issue. Thank goodness, my parents weren't weren't prejudiced in any way like that. So

Speaker 1

10:47

in June 2016, in the UK, we had the Brexit referendum. A month later, Maria moved into Angela's flat with a broken foot, and provided solace for Angela, who was standing for the leadership of the Labour Party, and facing online abuse for her sexuality, among other things.

Speaker 5

11:05

But I wasn't sort of quite as focused as she was on on the day to day what was going on. Also, I was debilitated at the time I'd broken my foot on the day of the year of the referendum. And so I was for a few weeks was it pretty incapacitated. And that happened to coincide with when all that was going on. And so my best role at the time was just just to try and be a, you know, an emotional support her, I think she found it quite stressful as you want. It was a stressful time. And so I felt a bit useless, not been able to help her as much as I would have liked. I was gonna

Speaker 1

11:48

say, Oh, you said all that if you put that in air quotes, that encompasses an awful lot of vitriol online and actually a death threat in actuality and all sorts of abuse that she put up with by putting herself forward. Yeah,

Speaker 5

12:03

it is. And, you know, I mean, she, she's often had more of that than me, partly because she's LGBT. And as obviously the first out woman MP who wasn't, who wasn't altered as it were. There was a whole element of that kind of homophobic abuse that she's had to put up with, that I've never had to put up with. People were so you're so similar. And it's like, yeah, we're similar in many ways, but actually, I'm not gay, you know. I'm not LGBT like her. That's quite a big difference. It wasn't an easy thing to do. And, but, but it was it. It seemed the right thing to do at the time. And, you know, it was a fairly astonishing experience, not least because of the massive amounts of abuse that came my way, which was difficult to cope with. But I like to think I did cope with it, and I'm recovered from it reasonably.

Speaker 1

13:11

And were you aware at the time, obviously, your, your poor sister with her broken foot was doing her best to kind of cheer you on from the sidelines and encourage

Speaker 5

13:19

incarnate of course, and, obviously, she had broken her foot trying to keep us in the European Union. And in fact, you know, she had to come and stay with us, because she couldn't get up the stairs to her flat. So we work actually, together during the most, the most wild a bit of that particular time. But I was no use to oh, well, you were you were you were funded. You couldn't do anything to hell. No, she was, she was a great use. And she was a great solace. And she understood and of course, the house was under siege with the media outside. And, you know, I mean, I was being bombarded with abuse across all social media outlets. But these experiences are you have to cope with them in life, you know, and I did, but I did with the help of both cameras in my life. My, my partner, Maria, and my sister, Maria,

Speaker 1

14:17

she was saying about the differences in your teenage bedrooms. When I asked her when she was when she knew she was going. She said, If I visited my teenage bedroom now, I probably could have told my teenage self that I was, but I wasn't really thinking about when you look back. But I wonder whether her bravery when you say about the abuse that she endured, was formed or innate or whether she's had to be latterly for some of those really difficult and horrible reasons.

Speaker 5

14:45

I think it's I think it's pretty innate. But I think that it's been more difficult because of some of those things that have happened based on either either on an on the fly Actually, she's, she's been more exposed as an LGBT person, she's been more exposed as somebody who's taking that step, for example, standing for the leadership. And that is very exposing thing to do wherever you are. So, I mean, I, it was very brave of her to do that, no doubt about it.

Speaker 1

15:20

Before we go and get her I wonder how this is a really practical question, but how you cope with those sorts of really visceral feelings of like your gorge rises? I think when someone attacks your brother or sister, there's a very kind of physical response. That's pure anger. And you must have had those feelings quite a lot over the years what you do with them, do you talk them out with her or do you play chess or go for a run? Or how do you deal with that feeling of like, back off, that's my twin.

Speaker 5

15:52

We've always seen sort of supporting each other rather than going out and having a fight with somebody else is the way to do it. I think

Unknown Speaker

15:59

wasn't implying you went out and had a fight.

Unknown Speaker

16:01

Well, probably has been known in the dim distant past but not from

Speaker 1

16:09

this season of relatively is sponsored by find my past the online home of the 1921 census. By 1921. People from all over the world had begun arriving in Britain to start new lives. People like the remarkable Dr. Harold moody. Jamaican born Dr. Moody graduated top of his class studying medicine at King's College London, and set up a practice working from home after struggling to find a job. Perhaps there's an inspiring story in your past. Find out in the 1921 census exclusively available online at Find my past.co.uk. Finally, right at the start of season one, drag queen Davina to Campo and her sister Charisse came on their childhood spanned a time when section 28 was still in force, which made life very complicated for Davina, who was named Odin, as a baby.

Speaker 7

17:06

It was a programme that they did a study in India, and it's about how the testosterone levels reduce as you go through the families. You can really see it in our family. Right? Because there's all the buys to Venus at the end, then there's Philippa. And then there's me.

Speaker 1

17:26

And would you say that the boys get less boyish than even those top three? Top four?

Speaker 7

17:31

Yeah, I would say they all get a little less manly along the way.

Speaker 1

17:37

With a thank you for saying that or would they not mind? And when did you know that? Owen might end up with a different identity as a grown up. When did you know that Davina might be emerging from your brother Owen,

Speaker 7

17:57

I think it has always been pretty clear. Oh, it wasn't like the other people. He was he's always been super formed by Him about everything. So it was no shock to anyone when he said he was gay. And nobody thought anything of him dressing up because we'd always dressed up.

Speaker 1

18:16

Was it a problem with your parents? Or anyone like that? Or was it just like, we've got seven of these. And they're all so different? And this is just the way that Owens different? Or was there kind of a like, oh, that's something new because I felt like even with drag race, the first series, there was a lot of explaining of Dragon sort of gender identity and those things going on. And that's 2019. So

Speaker 7

18:38

yeah, woman. Oh, god. Yeah, back. Back when I when I decided he was gay. Well, my mom didn't take it. Well, I don't think she spoke to him for quite a long time. She didn't she didn't take it well, or we don't. We don't see our dad is not part of the picture. But yes, mom didn't take it too well at all then. But now she's his biggest fan. So you know, she's over it. Now. We all get over stuff in the end.

Speaker 1

19:08

I wonder if we if it's a question of getting over something like that, or actually understanding because that's what I was trying to say it. The fact that in 2019 Drag Race was still having to kind of explain it to people means that back when Owen was a boy. That's a lot of learning for your mum to do. And understanding, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 7

19:27

And I think it's explaining it to other people as well. Because even if she did understand it, other people wouldn't would they?

Speaker 1

19:36

When When did you know you were gay? And when did you come out? How old were you?

Speaker 6

19:40

Oh, God, I knew when I was like 1112 I mean, I was the Christmas fairy all year long at school, you know, like the rainbow Ranger running up or down those school halls singing to show tunes and kicking my legs around. So it's pretty obvious to everybody, but I came out at 14 aim. And actually, she'd asked me when we were in a beta.

Speaker 7

20:04

Oh Ha ha, yeah. And what did you say?

Speaker 6

20:07

Do you remember the pool was in the just in front of where the hotel was? And then there were those stairs that went down to the beach. Oh, yeah. Do Yeah, that one it was there. Yeah. She said, sometimes I think you're gay. And I said, Well, actually, I think I am. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

20:22

And she was hoping you were gonna say no, I'm not.

Speaker 6

20:25

Yeah. Whereas I was like, Well, I've been told not to lie. I shouldn't lie. I've been getting in trouble for lying for my entire life. Oh, tell the truth. Yeah, I think I am. Oh, now she hates it. Ya know.

Speaker 1

20:43

And what did you feel Kara's? Like, did you feel a sense of protection towards Davina at school or

Speaker 7

20:49

school was awful, because people would just come up to me and go, your brother's gay and I've gone? Yeah. I'm not sure what you want from

Speaker 6

20:58

me. That was another lightweight on top of me as well, you know, feeling like all these other people in my family are having to deal with this as well. And it's not their fault. And it's not their problem.

Speaker 7

21:11

But nobody should I think it comes back to the kids a horrible thing doesn't.

Speaker 6

21:16

But equally, I knew that, you know, I was, I was lucky, in that I had this this sort of mindset of, I know that the popular kids and the cool kids are going to still be in Brighouse, in 30 years time. And I know that they're going to be married at 17. And they're going to have four kids by the time they're 20. I don't want that for me. So I'm not going to stay around these people. I'm going to go and do something else. They're not your friend. No. And it was, I knew that it was going to be like a two of three year experience. Rather than this is my entire life. Now I knew that I was going to go and do something different.

Speaker 1

21:58

That's amazing. Because most teenagers feel like school is the universe and the present that they're living through is going to carry on forever. I think it's really unusual to have a perspective that life is bigger than secondary school at that age.

Speaker 6

22:12

Yeah, I think a lot of that was, there were some really great teachers at rastrick High at that time, some of them are still there, they helped you know a lot with that, what would happen was I would get harassed and bullied for two or three months, and then I would explode and I would beat the crap out of somebody. And then people would leave me alone for three or four weeks. There was like Lower School, Upper School, sixth form. So whoever it was, who I kicked their head in, I would always go to the corresponding office and be like, I'm really sorry, I just flipped out today. And I beat this kid up. And they'd be like, well, you mustn't do that. But nobody's come to talk to us about it. So.

Speaker 7

22:55

Yeah. Oh, wow. Carry on. Yeah,

Speaker 1

23:00

basically. So that's amazing. You felt like they might have had your back? Yeah.

Speaker 6

23:04

And especially because section 28 was still in place. They knew that they possibly would, would face the sack. If they did step in, you know, it wasn't exactly what the legislation said. But if, if the PTA decided that that was what they they wanted, that they'd stood up for a gay kid, then that's what they could have pushed for, because it would have been promoting homosexuality as a valid lifestyle choice. So they couldn't affect it in the way that I think now teachers Absolutely. Can.

Speaker 1

23:40

I read somewhere when Ruth Bader Ginsburg died, that unless your rights have been debated in the Supreme Court, then you are privileged. And I think it was really interesting that you've brought legislation in to look back at your adolescence, because that says so much, doesn't it?

Speaker 6

23:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I knew that it was in place at the time. You know, I knew the score. It wasn't that I didn't know what was going on. I absolutely did. But everybody's hands were kind of tied. So the only thing that I could do was just carry on. But also I was like, you know, I know that it's better. Me getting bullied than somebody who's going to go home and kill themselves. You know, is better me having that? Because I knew that I was not going to do that because I wanted to do something with my life.

Unknown Speaker

24:24

Did you tell Karis when you were being bullied? I don't know.

Speaker 7

24:27

No, you didn't have to. I knew. I remember being in the school hall. And we walked through and people were jeering at him. Like it was awful. And I was just like, people are going to see that your brother and I'll fight Yeah. I'm like, There's nothing I can do. It was public knowledge that he was getting bullied

Speaker 1

24:49

as a horrendous image you've just described,

Unknown Speaker

24:53

it was and I remember that really vivid way.

Speaker 1

24:55

He was saying earlier or I worried everybody had to it's not there. problem. It's not there this I mean, be engaged nobody's problem. But did you feel his pain in that innocence?

Speaker 7

25:07

Oh, yeah, it was horrific. But I was just like, I can't do anything because he just puts me in the place to be bullied, like, and people were already trying because they were like, your brother's gay bar boss. I'm like, the only thing I could do was ignore rake. There's nothing you can do, because I was not I can't put myself in that position.

Speaker 6

25:29

No, because it was horrendous. It really was her intense self presently. Which was very much how our family operated as well. The quick and the hungry at dinner time.

Speaker 1

25:44

When you sort of look back at your you know, you do when you get older, I don't know how old you are even but you look back at yourself as a teenager and you feel like quite separate people sometimes. And I think you can feel pity or pride or protection towards that sort of other younger person. And I wonder if you look back at that person at secondary school and just sink slipping out, you had no idea how good it was going to get. But crikey, that was hard.

Speaker 6

26:06

Yeah, I mean, I definitely felt like the protection towards Philipa because Philippa and I have been really, really close. So we'd always played together at junior school, you know, and then I'd already started getting bullied in year seven. Philipa said she felt like I was ignoring her. You know, later, we'd had this conversation about how she said she felt like I'd been ignoring and I think an element of that was that I wanted I wanted her to not have have all the shit that was coming at me. I didn't want that to be put onto her. So, so I sort of hadn't ignored her but I definitely changed our relationship while we were at school.

Speaker 1

26:50

So sort of not hard to see where this whole thing that you seem to have about taking everyone's problems on your shoulders comes from because you were just trying to make it all right for everyone and yourself. Yeah,

Speaker 6

27:04

I mean, we were we were having full it was a really really tough time. Mum and Dad had broken up they were like, it was like World War three and then we had I had all this at school as well. And so I like I felt a real responsibility to not bring to not bring more of that on on everyone at home because it was already so hard.

Unknown Speaker

27:39

Yeah. I'm sorry I didn't mean to upset you. I just

Unknown Speaker

27:47

said don't be interested in the sense of

Unknown Speaker

27:51

I just need to go for therapy. That's all

Speaker 1

27:54

I can recommend it. Thank you to Davina and Charisse, Angela, Maria, Sophie and Edward Crooklyn and GOC Happy pride to everyone from relatively and thank goodness for sibling support. Thank you to Tony to tickle him for letting us use her amazing song. This is a pocket Production and Sound Design is by Nick Carter at MC sonics.com. I'd also like to say a huge thank you to our sponsors for this season of relatively find my past for digging into their extraordinary records and uncovering surprising and often revelatory family stories Find My past is the only place online where you can access the 1921 census. So if you want to start your family tree or add colour to what you know already, then find my past or co.uk is the place to do it.

Speaker 9

29:05

Tradition of love and hate stay my fireside this good tradition of love and hate stained by the Fireside another way may for your father's calling you you still feel safe inside a mosque to proud the brothers ignoring you. You still feel safe inside of washing solo wasn't shields to his wild west Chanti can still

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