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Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, we're back.
Not only are we back, we're back with like, one of our favorite people of all time.
I mean, she's got to hold the record for the most repeat guests, because every time we have these kinds of conversations, we're like, what would Kishshana think about this, and this is what's happening, you know, you're catching us on week three of our Enneagram series. And this is a series that we have been so passionate about getting to this community because we feel like there's so much absence of just knowing ourselves and how that relates to how we relate to our funders and to our teams and to even our families and all the ways we show up in the world. And we wanted to lift that conversation. And so we spent the last two weeks really unpacking that. But wow, now we're ready to get super practical, super applicable to our lives in these organizations that we love, that we want to serve. And so we want the soothsayer that always speaks truth to us. That always comes in and we'll drop the mic. We're talking to Kishshana Palmer today. And let me give you a little bit of background of this your first time to hang with Kishshana. She is a national speaker, international speaker let me correct myself. She's a trainer, a coach, she's got more than a 17 year background in fundraising, marketing, talent management. She is formed The Rooted Collaborative, this beautiful retreat and online community for women of color and fundraising. She's an author, she has been on the TEDx stage. I mean, my friend has done just about everything in this space. And so we have her on speed dial for these kinds of conversations. She's an NYC girl, and mother to a wonderful teenage daughter. She's just one of our favorite people to get into this house. Hello.
Hello, my friend, we are talking to a fellow two, Kishshana is a helper just like Julie and I. And I bet there's a ton of you out there. Hopefully you've taken the test. We have a free link to it on our show notes page from both of the past episodes. But it's like, I just like want to get into this. How did you get into the Enneagram? And talk to us about why this is a powerful tool to kind of help us see not only the blinders of people in our life, but ourselves mostly.
I mean, so for me, I got into it, because the church and I think that when I think about like the sort of the history, the history of the Enneagram have gained a lot of popularity in like large nondenominational churches and faith based organizations that used to have like small groups, that folks would meet weekly, or on some cadence, and they get together and talk about all manner of books and things and community. And so I lived in Charlotte many years ago. And the church I belong to was a plant to church plant. And that was what we were starting to do in our in our small group. So I took that test a long time ago and put it down. And actually Becky think like you like my numbers actually switched. And so I did that test. And I was like, I don't know, my late 20s, early 30s. And that I was a three with the wing two. And when I read ticket a couple of years ago, I was really shocked that I had switched to wing three. And I think because I know that I am coming into who I am in the world, for real for real, like I am releasing the pretenses of performance and of people pleasing and of, you know, wanting to be liked, and all the stuff that comes with that. I wonder if that in and of itself is actually revealing, like who I am at my core. So because I love behavioral assessments, I think that it's they're such good tools to be able to help us make sense of places and spaces in ourselves that don't always make sense. And I think the Enneagram does a really good job of helping to give sort of layman's voice to things that may not otherwise make sense. So you know, you know I'm Clifton Strengths coach, so I love Strengths Finder. And so because I Coach, I had to learn the business of each of the different behavioral tools. So I can talk your ear off about Enneagram, which we'll be doing today and DISC, and Myers Briggs, and 16 personalities and strengths, because you just have to know how what modality people operate in as a coach. And hilariously, that speaks very much to my Enneagram number, because I'm really out here, just trying to make sure folks are comfortable, you know,
Chase that harmony.
I love the way you described it, because we talked about it in either episode one or two of this series, where we just said, sometimes it's just as effective to like, get in and read about the types and whenever you feel like, Oh, I feel really seen or I feel really heard, or I feel really, like deeply seen. Like, that could be your type. And I love that your kind of description like mirrors that. And I think like that's the kind of like relationships and kind of understanding what triggers could be for somebody, or what could be really their motivation or intention. I think that's what the depth of this personality assessment element, if that's the right term for it brings to the table. So I just think about, you know, today's conversation we want to camp out with what does it mean internally? Like, what does it mean, in our teams, we're serving nonprofits, missions, causes, you know, around the world, you're often working in a group, in a team setting, you're gonna have a lot of tough conversations, you're gonna have a lot of high highs, low lows, what is this unlock, if you can really lean into using the Enneagram to form a better team and just kind of lay the groundwork for that?
Absolutely. So I think the first thing that I would say that leaders who are going to take on this work need to do is to really make sure you're doing I head heart check. And so one of the things that the Enneagram does that I love is that it looks at the perspective of who you are, and sort of like, where you step forward primarily. And it talks about whether you're in your body, whether you're in your heart, or whether you're in your head. And so the for those of us who are nerd alert, you know, or like, we're typically in our head, I am a nerd alert big time, but I
Me too. That's why I'm giggling,
Right, like, but I lead with my heart at the end of the day, like the places where I like, you know, want to just like by myself right in the head is when I didn't actually lead out with my heart when I lead out with something else. And so, as a leader, when I'm setting vision, when you're thinking about setting vision in your own organizations, if you have one of the types where you lead with your heart. So if you're a two, you're three or four in that regard, then you have to know that you need a counter person who is a complement to you, who's going to give you that balance of that head. And who's going to give you that balance of that body, you need somebody who's going to be able to that you can have that push and that pool before you introduce it to your team. And the reason I said before, first you got to know where you are and who you are in your spirit in your body, etc, you got to know that right? You got to tap in. So if you know that you are burnt out, that you are literally operating on fumes, this ain't the time to have an all staff retreat where you don't bring in a facilitator, let me be clear, this ain't the time to have what I call an all day meeting with food, which is what a lot of organizations do in their retreats, you just held us hostage in here with a meeting. And he gave us this dry bread, and called it heroes. I'm a New Yorker. So you know, I call it here. So you've got to be able to make sure you check in. So I would say if you're going to introduce this into your organization internally, first, you need to make sure that you're operating from a place of rest. And it doesn't mean that you need to take a sabbatical, you got to have a vacation. But I like to ask my CEOs and my executive leaders to make sure you have one day a month, that's just for a pause for you. I'm not going to be pushing I push my clients to get to a weekly pause, that's a monthly pause, then have an opportunity for your team members to do the same, then introduce this working dynamic into your organization, the Enneagram any tool does not work if you do not align it to goals and outcomes. So if you're not leveraging it in your weekly and monthly staff meetings as a part of conversations, if you're not leveraging that in your check ins, if you're not using that as a part of your performance evaluations throughout the year, you're not really folding in the to me the sort of foundational purpose of what this tool does, which is to help people find language to describe things about the way they work and the way they communicate, particularly when they're stressed that they wouldn't otherwise have. And so a leader who really wants to use this tool, which is quite nuanced, and quite powerful. First, you got to get help. Do not do this alone. You know, I was like this is not a DIY situation. Okay, this is not I was up late with my 90 tabs open and I stumbled upon this ad and I came to work the next day feeling spirited and I said to my team, you know we're gonna do we're gonna take this test No, your team is running for the hills. Sit down. Yes. So, that's to me. That's like my lair. like one A, one B, one C. So making sure that you're checking in with yourself one A, where are you showing up in this work if you have you taken the test? Are you the body? Are you have the heart? Have you have the head? Who is your counter, that's going to make sure that there's some balance. As you step into this work with your team members across your organization, I don't care if they're five of you are 55 or 555. And then, are you able to give yourself space enough so that when you introduce this as a working tool into your organization, they actually can fold into the practices and the norms within your organization? So to me, that's how I roll that all in.
Wow, so many thoughts that I want to reflect back to you because, one, I'm having an epiphany here, that in 20 years, I literally cannot think of a time that a leader has ever told me we need to pause. Have you ever felt that listener in nonprofit where a leader has said we need to pause? No. So talk to his Kish about how to start leveraging this as a tool internally. I mean, for someone who's listening, new to the Enneagram, you know, whether they're a leader or whether you're one of the worker bees on the front line, I think many of us have found ourselves, you know, in one or both of those places. Where can teams start today? If they're really curious about integrating this as a cultural norm into their organizations, what kind of counsel would you have for them?
I would say that it is not a drive thru process, like we're not going to McDonald's to pick up Happy Meal number four, or number seven, and keep it moving. Like this is a sit down. Nine course situation. And so being able to understand that it takes time for folks to lean into this is important, because the first thing you need to do with the Enneagram in with anything really is belief. Because if you actually don't believe in this type of stuff, then it doesn't work to actually activate it in your organization. I when I see organizations who've really taken this on, or taken on any kind of the assessments that I work with, it's when they start talking about folks in their actual number. Oh, you know, oh, Becky, she's a two. So this is that's just the two behavior, we just got to work with her because acts like when folks start describing you by your thing, that means that they've been able to give some distance to you and how you behave, which to me is a very healthy thing. So you can like say, I don't like the way somebody did something, but I like them as a person. Like there's a really good separation. I think that happens there. So I think that organizations who want to be able to start using this in their teaming should really invite their team into that conversation. So I think the first step is always to be able to take the test to be able to see how you understood it, I'm always recommend a facilitator because I'm like, please have somebody who understands this to help you interpret it for you or your organization, I think having a really good pulse on your culture. And there's a couple of types of culture, viewpoints that you can look at. The first type is like, I call it your height culture. And so that's like, how you promote what it's like to work here that show talent brand. So when people think about culture, they oftentimes think about like, what's the actual working practice or norm that happens in organization? I'm like, nah it actually is your reputation out in the world. And so we're thinking about that, like, how do you want this particular tool to help activate a healthier culture in your organization?
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I mean, I think this is really good, because I think everything kind of starts at that level too. You know, it's like if you're not going to come at it from that positioning, it's just not going to have the same weight and people are going to be chugging along. I want to ask you a question though. Because something you said I just want to go deeper on because, I mean, on some level, we were all bringing our own bias perspective to everything you know, at all times. And so we're all trying to process through that. What does it do for our culture? If we say, Oh, you gotta watch out because she's a two, I can't do this. He's a nine, I got to avoid him this way, it feels like it could create even more problems potentially by being put in a box. I mean, as a nine, you know, I don't love conflict. But I know that I need to have it. And so like, I don't want to be typed that I'm just going to avoid, you know, conflict. So how do you how do you kind of marry those two where you're like, I see you and understand you. But I don't want to label you as if you're only this one dimension of a type of person.
I think that's the part where this work actually comes down to the manager. So it's so funny because I was I've always talking to folks about the fact that like, it's frustrating as a day to day people manager when 70% of your team's success, engagement has to do with your behavior. And you're like, I did all this work, I put up this job description, I save all my writing, that I did this long process I was on Indeed, and I was on this site. And I was on that site then I had interview people that I have to get you in here. And you telling me that after all of that, your success is still on me. So this becomes the thing, right? But as a good day to day manager, people manager, you have to see your people that we want to do the block and tackle how to blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, you know what you need to do how to human? Yes, so as a manager, being able to be focused in as opposed to focus out on other things. So focusing on your team in this in this particular instance, being able to be paying attention, which is why I believe so deeply in check ins, being able to have your finger on the pulse of what actually is happening, what the motivations are of your team, what's happening in their lives, which I believe that you should have a personal relationship with your team members necessarily a private one, but a personal one. Because I don't have to know why your grandmother got to go to the doctor. But I do need to know that you are the primary caregiver for your grandmother, because it brings a whole different dynamic to how your work happens if something happens at home with her episodically, right. And so in order to be able to not be labeled, to me, a plugged in manager is going to have a good keen understanding and a learning of how their team member shows up when they're healthy, and how their team member could show up when they're in crisis. And a really good understanding of what is episodic to that particular team member, and what is emblematic of either an internal challenge they're having having or something that's happening in the organization that is pushing on that team member to be able to make decisions. So in your exact example, Jon, you talked about, you know, being a nine I avoid conflict. So I'm not putting you in situations where you are going to always have to be the one to address a conflict. And yet, if there's something that is a conflict, we're going to have a conversation offline, about like, Okay, well, how do you want to navigate this? What is the result you're looking for? What's the outcome that would feel successful to you? Okay, what are some ways that we can get to that, which is why managers today are more coaches than they are managers, which is why they need to come to me to get coached properly, so they can be better managers.
Oh, she's the best.
She wins. So you can actually coach people, because this is a lot, right? I want to take a nap. Just talking about it like, wow, that is a lot of work. And then I still got to do my job. So I think, Jon, like it's really about getting to know and really knowing your people.
And it's less, it's more of an internal dialogue that you're having of like, this is how I want to coach through this situation. That's how I show up. This is the expectation here. Powerful.
Yeah, exactly right. I think that's super important. I think that a lot of times we don't afford ourselves the space to be able to do so because we don't demand it in our work. And so one of the biggest breakthroughs that I've been able to have leveraging my, my, my strength to me as a two which is in really being a helpler, support, I'm relationship oriented. That does make you laugh. I think I've just relaxed into the idea that I actually think I'm a relationship coach at the like, at the foundation of who I am. I care about work relationships, I care about personal relationships, and I care about relationship with yourself.
Can I tell you, I thought you've been that for the two years I've known you? That is hilarious.
Oh, I think it was Monday. I was like, Oh, I feel like alright, I'm starting to rewrite my bios. So I was like, okay, my battery needs a refresh. I was like, I've been in the game 20 something years, I gotta figure this out, like, who am I now? What do I say? What's my story? And I was like, Oh, I really think I am really like, at the end of the day, I'm a relationship coach, like that is what I am. I teach people how to do this better in all aspects. And so that is my Enneagram that's the power of where I am in that. And so the challenge is, because I am like that and because I put myself out there like that. The challenge that I have as a manager is when people don't do it to me I am upset. Yeah, because I give my whole heart to making sure other people are successful and I'm always bewildered when people do not do that for me, and I have to constantly have that check of folks are not oriented in the way I'm oriented. And so I think as a day to day manager, one of the powers of leveraging the Enneagram, is you have to constantly stay on your toes in terms of the perspective of how people show up in the world, and how you show up in the world and how that interaction moves the ball, stops the ball, in your work, and in the relationships you're building with your teams and to be able to activate your missions.
So smart. And I want to thank you for saying all of that, because one of the reasons we had Ashley Engel who did our first two episodes on this, break down, what you what the types look like at their best, and what the types look look like at their worst. And this is a very vulnerable place to be. And for all of us, especially in the worst part, because these are things that we think we hide, really, really well. And the Enneagram just pulls that out to the front row, and then puts it on stage for everybody to look at. But I do think it's so helpful, and maybe never before, as helpful in a time such as this. Because when we're virtual, you know, as many of us have moved to, or when we're not together, or when you're talking to your team, you say how are you doing, and they say, fine, you can look at those underlying behaviors, and know that your team member is not fine. And it also helps you just, I feel like see the blinders that you can't see, you know, if you got to somebody on your team who's a, you know, type five, the investigator, we know that if they're going to be on zoom all day, it they're going to be entirely exhausted by that. And it may have nothing to do with their work, it may or may not have anything to do with their personal life, they're just exhausted, working in sort of a digital detached way and being so on, on I say on with air quotes. And it's like understanding each of these types and understanding the limitations and where your team will struggle and where they will shine. It is just like a next level tactic that I think for managers and leaders that are kind of feeling their way through this new way of work, it can be one of the most powerful tools that you have in your toolbox. And so I would love it if you could just break down for us like any examples you've seen of different numbers and different scenarios internally and give us some examples of what you've seen.
So I love that, that's such a good question. Because I feel like folks are like, Well, what about what about me? That's like my favorite. So I like so I the way that I was able to like digest the Enneagram was around a sort of like head, heart, body, right. And so then the three different sort of aspects of how each of the numbers show up. And so first, I'll start with my body folks, folks who like give me body, okay, so those are my eights, my nines, and my ones. And so if you're an eight, those are my folks who are like assertive and they are strong, they are determined. They're also a little controlling. They like their desks to be just so, they like their meetings to be just so, they always seem to have the direction, we know where we're going, how we're getting there. And so when that is your dominant type, what that means is that when you come into a room, you take up space, so that's the person that comes into the room. And it feels like the air sort of sucked a little bit, that that person that comes into the room and the room hushes. And so that person has to be very conscious of the kind of energy they're immediately drawing from the room, which means they have to be conscious of the energy they are putting into themselves, I need y'all to be working out, I need y'all to have a good breakfast, I need y'all to have some sort of like motivational life, whether that's meditation or prayer or walking or whatever, whatever, whatever your ritual is, so that you are putting good energy in before you touch other people. Because your number you, whatever you put out, is all spread like a disease. We don't want it to spread like a disease we'd like it to spread like fairy dust that feels much better to me. Okay, thanks. And so that to me is how an eight will show up in an organization situation as a leader as a team member and he shows up as a person who might be the shiner. They know they are the one who has the answer, they have done the research, they have dug in, they're the first to respond, they're the ones gonna follow up first. And so if you know that's how you show up you know you are a dosage kind of human okay. Dose yourself accordingly. That's it you're gonna choose when you want to be when you want to pop out. And when you want to just stay back that's that balance you need to have you need to have somebody who can also like pull your coat a little bit and say and you don't get offended. Okay, so my nines Oh my nines, so calm, so patient, so steady. Also have some people will perceive you as easygoing, therefore uncomplicated therefore a pushover. It just gets real bad real fast, right? It's just like sets you up to the edge of the counter. You're like, God, how did we get here? You know? And so I think, because the and Jon, you're such an example of it. Every time I talk to you, I'm like ah peace. I think the challenge of that is you can get so nested into making sure other people are well in that way, because you bring that kind of energy that you sort of like, forget, like, wait a minute. Now what was important to me again, because you're so busy trying to make sure that you just easy with it, you like to know what, you don't want to go and do that anymore. That's fine. We could just write these grants, and you're like, This is dumb. Oh, you want to do a golf tournament? No, and you like, if you feel that people will come? Alright, if anybody wants to do that, show me why you're like, that is not what I signed up for or when you're a nine, nines to me have to write stuff down. I'm gonna need y'all to have a written agenda. So you like when people pull you off course because they will. And you feel like, okay, I guess you like haha. Actually, before we move on, I'd like us to consider one thing, just one thought I'd have just to consider, just a consideration so that you're able to stay with what's important to you. So I think leaders who have that have to be really clear, write it down, you have to have your sticky note, you got to have your mantra up on your wall, you got to have it in your phone, you have to have somebody whispering to you everyday, get your Kishshana's meditative word. I don't really have that. But it sounded really good.
Breathe it into existence.
Oh my gosh, right, tells you what you need to do for yourself to stay on track. So that's my nine. Okay, and I'll do one more. So my ones, I think that because ones tend to be the ones that are like really disciplined, really principled, conscientious. And for those of y'all who are listening to this, this description so far and go, but I have some of that we all have some of all of it. Situationally, each of these aspects will bubble up to the front. But the ones that come up, and we're not even trying or what we're talking about now. And so folks who are in our ones like you are the person that's going to be like modulating your behavior that you have a high set of rules, standards and values that you adhere to for yourself, you might come across as self righteous, I just want you to know and did admit you're being nasty Miss Jackson, okay. You were the folks that if I was doing your Strengths Finder right, I would say you have responsibility very high and discipline very high, and you apply yourself diligently. But what that means is that you might be critical, and find it difficult to relax and find yourself pleasure. And you wonder you're the person who if you're a parent, and you're a one and you see a young person taking a nap, you get very resentful, you wake them up to do a chore, because why are you resting? You know, like you resent the people who know how to rest. And so just thinking about that, as leaders, even just in those three examples, look how that is so powerful. On the one hand, the ways in which you'll get stuff done, the ways in which the strategic plan will get, you know, will get done the ways donors might have confidence, where your board will have confidence. Also, the way you might seem like you are not flexible, or people might not be as excited to help you because you don't listen anyway. So how do you navigate the healthiest parts of yourself in real time, with the parts that when your back is up against the wall, you know, a little stressful? So I'll give you the three.
Kish mean, I would read a book listen to a podcast like what you just did there for those three, I mean, just pulls you in, you've got it spot on. I mean, that's where I think we really wanted this conversation to go today because it is about figuring out how we work together in a different way. And I think this allows us to have that kind of different level of conversation. And so I mean, we could talk about this all day, but Kish as we kind of come to the close of this first conversation with you. What's one good thing, what's an applicable place to think about as we engage with Enneagram in the context of our teams, what's one piece of advice that we can walk away with today?
This is an opportunity for you to give voice to the parts of yourself that have previously felt voiceless. And to step away from yourself in the healthiest way to be an observer of how you shown up to date, in your own life. And then you get to decide, you get to decide how you want to show up for yourself. You want to show up for your team, you want to show up in your family. And this is a tool that allows you to be able to unpack some of those things and how people experience you so that you're able to go okay, what's next? So I think like giving yourself the gift of space from yourself, to be an observer in your own life is something that I think this tool allows you to do.
Like the most perfect Enneagram one good thing of all time, thank you for this gift. I feel like you have just done an incredible level of self care in breaking breaking this down in the human way. And so we want everybody to stay tuned because you know, we couldn't just have Kish back in our house for like one episode we got to pull her back in for a second episode. So hang with us. Because next Friday, we're going to be talking about Enneagram and fundraising. And so as much as we love talking about how the Enneagram helps us, you know, build better teams, build better cultures, we've got to figure out how this can be flexed with the external donor dynamic, and Kish is coming back, she's going to help us better understand some of our limiting beliefs about fundraising and how we can apply this to our donor relationships. So, Jon, thanks for being in Enneagram nine, and for balancing out my crazy heart with your head, because it truly is a gift. I think to We Are For Good because Julie and I are both Enneagram twos and John gives such a great balance in his peacemaker-nessand that is the beauty of Enneagram is that the mosaic of all of us is gonna bring harmony and balance to the places that we're at. So thank you for reiterating that.
Thank you, B. Part of my peacemaking. I'm like, Okay, how can people connect with Kish. But before next episode Kish point is to all the ways you show up, tell us all the other ways.
I'm across all socials at Kishshana Palmer and so you can find me in listen fun trick. If you put Kish into Google. I will appear. It is so great.
Taking over Google.
Okay, that's epic.
Yeah, for Kishshana Palmer on all socials. And if you're like, I want to know how to be a better manager, and how to like leverage Enneagram and how to figure out how to use you know, Kishshana, I've used it, I've used this, I've used all the tools. And I'm confused. I want you to just be a better manager. So you can lead with confidence and keep your teams and I want you to join me a kiss camp. And I'm going to be hosting for virtual camp session for grownups for stressed out managers who want to lead with confidence and keep your teams. And that's going to be two sessions in August and two sessions in September. And so you can just go to kishshanaco.com/kish-camp, and you can check out his camp and join me for a day. To be a better manager we will dig into all of this is going to be great. And so that is where you can catch me all right now.
Oh my gosh. Okay. It's all linked up in the show notes we're running right now. Thank you. This has been so good.
Thank you, my friend.
Hey, friends. Thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics? Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community. It's free and you can think of it as the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie Confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom.
