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Mumonkan #11, "Joshu and Two Hermits" 2023-07 | Otter.ai

Mumonkan #11, "Joshu and Two Hermits" 2023-07

John Pulleyn43min

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

00:01

This is the sixth day of this July 2023, seven-day sesshin and today we'll take up a koan in the Mumonkan, also known as "The Gateless Gate -- it's number 11, "Joshu and Two Hermits."

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

00:36

And I'm gonna take a stab at the, the original Chinese name of of, of Joshu. These are he's a he's a Chinese master, and the Japanese render the name Zhaozhou as Joshu, but I see if we can stick to Zhaozhou.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

00:55

And this is the case - every every koan has first the case and then the commentary and the verse by Zen master Wumen (Mumon). It is every every koan in the Mumonkan has the three parts.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

01:16

So the first the case, Joe, Joe went to amongst hot and said, Are you in? Are you in? The Hermit lifted up his fist? Zhao Joseph said, the water is too shallow for a large ship to anchor here, and he went away. He then went to another hermits and called out, are you in? Are you in this hermit also held up his fist. Joe Joe said, freely you give freely you take away freely you bestow life, freely you kill, and made a profound bow. So, Joe, Joe appears in more koans in the Zen tradition than any other master of a lot of biographical material and him. I'll turn first to Andy Ferguson's Zen. Zen's Chinese heritage, the Masters in their teachings, we read from this earlier in sesshin. His dates are 778 to 897. Again, this is the tang the great Tang Dynasty. And as he was disciple of the also famous, non Schwann non Zen in Japanese. It says that he he had his first Great Awakening at the age of 18. And then he spent several decades training under non Schwann his teacher until non Schwann died. And then at that point, Xiao Jo set out traveling on pilgrimage to visit other masters of their their monasteries to further refine his practice.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

03:41

Joe Joe's fame spread throughout China, although he had 13 Dharma Heir is his lineage soon died out. Yeah, there seems to be no. The greatness of a teacher doesn't seem to guarantee that the lineage will last can only imagine the different socio psychological, political factors behind a lineage lineage continuing. I was certainly not make the mistake of thinking there was anything deficient about his lineage he needed he needed more than a great teacher to her lineage to continue

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

04:40

he's also very famous for having reportedly lived to the age of 120.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

04:51

In, in Chinese astrology, the kind that the The kind that you see on the placemats in Chinese restaurants with the 12 animals, but I learned it's far more refined than that much more sophisticated than that. A life cycle is 60 years. This is why the in Asia 60th Birthdays a time of great celebration. The fact that Georgia has reported ages is double that 120 Makes you wonder a little bit besides the in the most most most famous of koans does a dog have Buddha Nature Mu. Here's some other exchanges with Joe Joe and others. First one is about his meeting, the man who would become his longtime master non Schwann when the Young Joe Joe approached him, he was lying down and resting. And he asked Joe, Joe, where have you come from? And Joe, Joe said, I've come from Ryu Xiang, which the translator here tells us means Omen figure. Nan Shan said, Did you see the standing omens figure? And then Joe, Joe said no, but I've seen a reclining Tagada Buddha, a reclining buddha obviously referring to non tshwane. Well, this got non tshwane up off his chaise lounge and, and he asked as a novice monk, do you have a teacher or not? Ciao Joe said I have a teacher mantra and said who is your teacher? Joe Joe stepped in front of non Schwann made a prostration and said in the freezing winter cold, a prostrate monk only asks for the Masters blessings. And if this non tshwane approved his response and permitted him to enter the monks Hall and obviously become his student

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

07:44

when I was briefly in pilgrimage in Burma, now, Myanmar, I guess I spent a week there visiting temples. And I was stunned and amused to see these his monks, these Tera Vaada monks stretched out on these kind of lounges know how us in the most insouciant kind of sprawling kind of way. He just exuded indifference and cocking us just a little footnote here in, in Southeast Asian countries, some some some Southeast Asian countries, will Thailand for sure. But maybe there's similar in Burma to become a monk is is no lifetime commitment to you. They might do it for three months or six months. And I've been told by many people that it's it's a little bit like, serving in the Israeli army, you just you're expected to do it. You go in for three months, or whatever, and then you may leave and then you may go back in later. What really slew me was the when they would lie there. With her, sometimes they're lying down with her legs crossed one over the other raised up. I don't know if you can picture that, but it's not. not unheard of. But anyway, lying there, and with a big old Stokey that they're smoking in the most cocky way. Well, there's nothing here about non tshwane smoking a cigar butt. It's interesting. Where would that be where he approached where Joe Joe approached him and he was lying, reclining somewhere. Anyway, There are so many koans that I won't read. I'm involved with Joe Joe. So I'll just stick to the non koan anecdotes here. One day Joe Joe asked Nan Schwann. Where do people with wisdom go when they die? In other words, who could sue me means when? When the Enlightened die where do they go? And Nan Shan says they go to be water buffaloes down at the base of a mountain. Ciao Joe said thank you for your instruction. Nan Shan said last night during the third hour, the moon reached the window it sounds funny, it's hard to know what quite what he meant there sounds like approval of Joe Joe's response. But the thing about the water buffalo. This is in the tradition. The Zen tradition that after awakening we go down the mountain going up the mountain is on the way up to awakening and then after awakening we go down to the base of the mountain to become water buffaloes water buffalo being the sort of the quintessential symbol of service

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

11:31

if if, if awakening has any purpose at all, it's to serve to then help others.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

12:00

One day Joe Joe was sweeping. A monk ask the master is a great worthy Why are you sweeping by the way by the time he began teaching he was at so all of these dialogues with him as the master means he's 80 or 90 or 100 or more among casts the master is a great worthy Why are you sweeping? Joe Joe said dust comes in from outside. The monk said it is a pure temple. Why then is there dust? This is the mark is no beginner he's he's sort of challenging Jojo. The it's a pure temper why then is there dust and Joe Joe said there are similar

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

13:12

next one is a little longer. Joe Joe dress the mocks. I'm just pulling out an extract from a long passage. Essential mind is unborn. The myriad dharmas are flawless. Try sitting for 20 or 30 years and if you still don't understand, then cut off my head. The empty flowers of delusion and dreams. Disciples work so hard to grab them. Just the myriad dharmas are flawless dharmas. This means things phenomena, everything. Everything we can imagine, is flawless.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

14:11

It gets continuous when nothing deviates from mind. Then the myriad dharmas are but one vastness since it can't be attained from outside, what will you try to grass? You're like goats, haphazardly picking up just anything and keeping it in your mouth. And then he quotes Yao Shan, another great master. People asked me to reveal it. But when I teach it is like something taken from a dog's mouth. And then Joe Joe says, what I teach is like something taken from a dog's mouth also. Take what I say as dirty. Don't take what I say. is clean Don't be like a hound or he's looking for something to eat

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

15:10

this is this is an acknowledgment that many of the great masters made acknowledgement that somehow this just as it is, is only diminish through words

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

15:38

one, one master put it this way, he said, it is like a cup of second a cup of fine soup befouled by rat droppings.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

16:03

It is in our tradition to give talks, that's what teachers do. But we do so knowing that it's a it's a double edged sword that we can cause misunderstandings by depending on how the words are taken. Sometimes I have to deal with those misunderstandings and Doakes on after teisho. Try try not to think about it too much. Just speak from one's heart, one's experience and hope that some benefit from it. But tomorrow, tomorrow is the last day of session. And I'm going to again not give a teisho There's something about the last day of a seven day sesshin something about the magnificent silence that I just don't want to monkey with.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

17:51

Another time Joe. Joe asked a monk, how many sutras Do you read in one day? The monk said, sometimes seven or eight, sometimes 10. Ciao Joe probably knew that this, this monk was enamored of the sutras and was a voracious reader of them studying on them. Sometimes seven or seven, sometimes eight, sometimes 10. Zhao Joe said, Oh, then you can't read sutras. Mark said, Master, how many do you read in a day? Jar Jar said in one day, I read one word.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

18:47

Another time John Chau entered the hall addressing the monk saying when a person of understanding I'm doing my own translation that I've that I remember from many years. When a person of true understanding expounds a true doc a false doctrine, it becomes true. When a person have no understanding expounds a true doctrine, it becomes false.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

19:19

It's very important point. In Zen, it's not the words it's not the doctrine. It's the understanding or the lack of understanding behind it. One teacher can say the same thing as another teacher but it can. One can be true and the other false

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

20:13

Have some up turning to a different source here to someone. Oh students many years ago gave me a collection of short exchanges with Jojo. Someone asks Master, where is your mind focused? Joe Joe said, Where there is no design

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

20:44

he was. My guess is that the Zhao Jo, like? Most of these great masters in the Tang Dynasty, the Song Dynasty, his practice was shikantaza. Just bear attention or bear awareness of everything inside and outside, without any object of concentration. So then where does your mind focus where there's no design

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

21:19

could also take this might be going too far we could take the word design and the old fashioned way of having a scheme or an ambition or there is no design. Here's another jewel. A monk asked what is the principal concern of the one wearing Buddhist robes? And Joe Joe said, not to deceive himself.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

22:12

Someone asked when the one says an awkward translation I'm trying to make it better on the spot. When the one moving toward liberation vows to strive for the utmost enlightenment. How about that? Joe, Joe said, when not yet liberated, you are used by enlightenment. When liberated, you use it so before awakening, the thought of it is it's just a blight on the mind. To hold it in the mind is something we are grasping for afterward. Our job is to use it for the sake of all sentient beings

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

23:13

this one I particularly like a mark ask, what is the ultimate word? Joe Joe coughed. The monk said That's it, isn't it? And Joe Joe said Alas, they won't even let me cough

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

23:37

now they're very short one someone asked naturalness. What is that? Joe Joe said this asking is in itself on natural

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

23:55

someone asked the way of the monk what is it? Jojo said being detached from the way

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

24:11

the danger of internalizing labels identities

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

24:28

one more I swear. A monkey saw a cat and asked. I call it a cat. Master. What do you call it? Jojo said you calling it a cat

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

24:46

All right. Small amount of time we have left and go to the colon itself. Joe Joe went to a monk's hut and said I Are you in Are you in? One another translation of this challenge is ar, ar AR is the master in Are you the Master? Present? referring of course, to this original nature of ours. Are you in Are you in the hermit raised his fist? Jojo said the water is too shallow for a large ship to anchor here and off he went. He then went to another hermits. By the way, sometimes this is cast that the case is cast as two different hermits but it doesn't matter. Terms of a koan doesn't matter a bit, there are one or two, he then went to another hermits and called out are you in Are you in the hermit also raised his fist. Chow Jr. said, freely you give freely you take away freely you bestow life, freely you kill. The man made a profound bow.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

26:23

So on the face of it, he certainly seems to be finding fault with the response of the first hermit. And then when the second Hermite, finding it, approving it completely.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

26:42

I wouldn't people work on this koan. I tell them right off the bat, let's let's save you some time and just assume that they're healthy. They're raising their fists exactly the same. It's not really giving away too much to say that it just makes it all the more perplexing and holding up raising their fists exactly the same. So why then does he say that the first one what appears to be a disapproval into the second one very strong approval? That's the nub of the koan.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

27:35

Is these masters, we're always watching the monks and other other masters watching to discern their level of understanding where where they're coming from. And there's really very little that that gives gives you more information and to see how anyone doesn't have to be a monk. How anyone responds to praise and criticism. It's a great test.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

28:21

In, in Buddhism, there are what are called the eight winds, winds being that which has the those which have the potential to unsettle us knock us off balance. And these are the eight winds are for pairings. One is Yes, praise and blame. Another is pleasure and pain. The next is fame and disrepute. And the last pair is gain and loss.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

29:00

Each one of these, each one of these we can face in a day and going through a day in our life we can face any one or all of these. And they will indicate where to what degree we're attached to the self. And its its acquisitive nature

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

29:41

there's a passage from one of my favorite books of universal wisdom, let's say this is from the man of many qualities, a legacy of the eaching it's a it's a rare It's a rich compilation of stories from all over the world from all different centuries based on the 64 hexagrams of the eaching. And now here's how this one goes. man's mind is more treacherous than mountains and rivers, and more difficult to know than the sky. For with a sky you know what to expect, in respect of the coming of spring, summer on autumn and winter, and the alternation of day and night. But man hides his character behind an inscrutable appearance. There are those who will appear tame, and self effacing but conceal a terrible pride

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

30:55

Roshi once or twice said to me, watch out for the quiet ones. And you can even see that even with the with these mass shootings, so often they say, Oh, he was quiet is kept to himself. But to continue here, that there are those who appear tame and self effacing but concealed terrible pride. There are those who have some special ability, but appear to be stupid. There are those who are compliant in yielding, but always get their objective. We know these people don't really some are hard outside but soft inside, and some are slow without, but impatient within. Therefore a gentleman gentleman is the the word used in Confucian tradition to mean someone who's highly developed why a wise person. Therefore a gentleman sends a man to a distant mission to a distant mission in order to test his loyalty. He employs him nearby in order to observe his manners. He gives him a lot to do in order to judge his ability. He suddenly puts a question to him in order to test his knowledge and makes a commitment with him under difficult circumstances, to test his ability to live up to his word. He trusts him with money in order to test his heart and announces to him the coming of a crisis to test his integrity. He makes him drunk in order to see the inside of his character and puts him in female company to see his attitude toward women. submitted to these nine tests, a fool always reveals himself

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

33:14

but such an elaborate regimen is unnecessary. In ordinary, the course of things in our lives, if we're if we're attentive, if we're mindful. We see people revealing themselves all the time. In terms of Zen, it's it's always on display how they walk, how they carry themselves posture, how they respond above all how they respond to anything in particular, of course, especially praise and and blame.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

33:54

He used to say to people on staff something would happen who left Left the lid off a yogurt in the staff kitchen. And, and I always, I always was, I was proud of one who would anyone who would say I did it, I did it. Which hasn't always been the case over the years sometimes just silence. Silence

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

34:23

a poor mother used to go crazy. There were six of us kids. And there was something I don't know, a vase broken or something. And she'd say, who did it Who did she go around interviewing each person? And the last one would say no, I didn't. And she said no.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

34:48

But it's just it's just about not having your mind clogged with thoughts. When your mind is is empty, relatively free of thoughts. We see so much We hear so much we send so much

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

35:16

there are there are some koans that have kind of a dual level to them, they can then one on one hand, the master is what his response to the mark is, for the purpose of changing the mark. We sometimes call this sort of the training or the teaching aspect, this is teaching in the conventional sense, I'm going to teach you something, there's that can be, but then even even simultaneous without can be the, the essential aspect. That is, it's has nothing to do with changing the mark helping the mark. It's just the way things are.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

36:23

What's going on here, with Joe Joe, responding in opposite ways to the very same response on the part of the hermits. We don't know how the hermit responded, the Each One responded to his response. It's not important in terms of the koan. We might reflect how would I respond? If my teacher said the water is too shallow for our large ship to anchor here, or the other way? The deep bow

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

37:08

go on to the commentary. That's the commentary by Zen master who men move on and Japanese. And he says he just kind of kind of articulates the dilemma here, both stuck up their fists, why did he approve one and not the other? Just say, what is the core of the complication? If you can give a turning word on this point, you will see that Joe Joe is unrestrained in saying what he wants to say utterly free either to help the one rise up or to push the other down. But though this is so, remember, that the two hermits also saw through Joe Joe further, if you say the one hermit is superior and the other inferior, you do not have an open AI neither have you an open AI, if you suppose there is no difference between the two hermits?

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

38:22

Just going to leave this with no comment. No comment on the commentary. Leave it for for people when they work on this and doxa then the verse woman's verse, His eye is a shooting star, his spirit like lightning. He is a death dealer a life giving sword

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

38:57

talking here about Joe Joe and then this these last two lines. He's a death dealer a life giving sword

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

39:14

with respect to the death dealer is one one more little exchange here involving Joe Joe. One day Joe Joe was walking with an official in a park. A rabbit saw them and became alarmed and ran away. The official asked Joe Joe, Master, you are a great worthy. When the rabbit saw you Why Did it run away? You know as if the rabbit can recognize the Zen master is such silliness. What about the startle response? What about that? Any animals reflex? You're a great word of a great master. Why would the rabbit underway. And Zhao Jo says, because I'm good at killing

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

40:11

it is squarely in the middle of a Zen teachers job description to kill when killing is necessary that is to expose the the ego, when it's called for. And that can mean obviously means correcting a times correcting a student it can mean harshness. Compassion doesn't have to be just sweet and approving. Sometimes it's just, it's the most compassionate thing to, to speak sharply to a student now, doesn't have to be a teacher and a student, it can be think of a good friend, you have a good friend who you think is is making a mistake is is deceiving himself to use a phrase we read earlier that response by Joe Joe not to deceive himself. That is, that is our ultimate aim. And we can at times need to to be strong. And with a with a call hair kill. And there are other times, of course, when it's the opposite, the affirming that the negative but the affirming.

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

42:00

And different teachers have different ways they use these different proportions. Roshi Kapleau was very harsh, very critical. I think honestly, I could say that in all my years with him, I could count the fingers on the on one hand, the number of times he praised me. And then when I went to Japan, and was training with a teacher there, it was the opposite. I was baffled. It was just all kinds of praise. In that in that context, one way to understand that is that in Japan that you're receiving praise, you're expected to live up to that praise. You've got a responsibility now.

Unknown Speaker

43:03

lifegiving sword

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

43:04

double edged sword

Roshi Bodhin Kjolhede

43:13

All right, well stop now recite the Four Vows.

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