I haven't checked the weather, but I know it is a perfect day to chat about adult Jewish literature. I'm Sheryl Stahl. Thanks for joining me here at nice Jewish books
I am really happy to welcome Victoria Goldman to speak about her mystery novel the Redeemer. Welcome, Victoria.
Hello, thank you for inviting me.
It's my pleasure. But would you please set the story up for us?
Yeah, sure. The Redeemer is a murder mystery set in England. And it has themes of anti semitism, heritage and identity and revenge and redemption. It follows journo Shanna Regan, who discovers a series of fake historic plaques. And each one highlights someone's misdemeanor rather than a good deed Digging deeper she discovers they're linked to vigilante killings spanning several decades with ties to the local Jewish community. As I search for the truth becomes personal. She puts her own life in danger. Can she stop the next murder in time?
The fake plaque say something like so-and-so beat his wife here for 30 years, repent or you will never rest in peace?
Yes, that's right.
So I'll have that had that repent or you will never rip? Well, one thing I appreciated was the the lack of blood and gore because the murders were in the past. And so we didn't stumble across too many dead bodies.
Yes.
So I was really struck by one of the first scenes where Shana is watching some teenagers harass a woman for being Jewish. And Shana was desperately willing someone else to intercede? And it seems like so many of us get into that position of not being willing or able to step up and help a person in distress yet, and it seems like that's kind of a theme in her life.
Yes, I think I think that's a common thing. I think that people often see things and they worry about getting involved putting their own safety at risk. So in this case, she's watching these teenagers, they're throwing stones at a woman is the first thing you read in the book. And it's actually based on real life experience. The anti semitism in the book is based on actual happenings in the UK, although I'm sure they happen around the world. And this particular scene was printed by a park seen locally to me, where teenagers were hassling us for being Jewish and shouting similar names in that scene. And people don't, don't get involved. People just look and ignore, and walk in the other direction. And Shana doesn't want to get involved. And there are particular reasons why she doesn't get to work wants to get involved, until she gets to the point to a breaking point where she realizes someone has to do something, someone has to help this poor woman.
Yeah, I'm sorry that that happened to you. And unfortunately, it does happen, at least all over the United States - I can't speak to the rest of the world. There are some themes of memory and history, that sort of conflict in the book. So Shannon says two things. My early memories are scarce, broken, shattered, those of my mother, mainly the before part of my life hidden behind a stony wall in my brain. And then she also says, I've never been interested in history, including my own, I always thought the past didn't matter. It's the future that counts are the here and now. So I'm wondering, which came first? Is she not interested in history because she has lost those early memories of her life? Or has she kind of blocked or lost those early memories, because she's just not interested in history.
I think it's probably a mixture. Her mother died when she was young. She knows that. But she doesn't know much about her mother. She's grown up with her father. And I think because of that, she's just moved forward in life. She hasn't thought about the past too much. Her father has always traveled a lot for work. And therefore, he's moved from one place to the next. And she's also done the same thing throughout her life as a journalist following on from a childhood spent traveling. So she leaves one place and moves to the next so she doesn't tend to dwell or tries not to on what she's seen in the past. She just moves on to the next thing the next job
which brings us To another theme in the book of, of home, and she feels like she doesn't really have a home that she's not that connected to the farm where she grew up with her father. And then as you said, she moved around with him for his work and then continued to move around for her own work. What would it take for her to feel that? She had a home somewhere?
That's difficult question. I think that she is obviously she's very close to her father. But there's still something missing. And I do think that she spent her life searching, searching for, as you say that home that sense of belonging, and she's always felt a bit lost without it. And that's partly because when her mother died, she, she and her father traveled a lot, and they did live elsewhere. So she's never really learned how to settle down in one place. And as she does say, in the book, she's never had long lasting relationships or friendships, because she's always moved around as a child. And as an adult, she does have some longer lasting relationships as an adult, as a journalist with colleagues, for example, but she's never laid her roots anywhere.
So there's a lot going on in in Shana's life, she's got this actually a crap job that she doesn't like at all. She's used to dealing with serious issues and traveling and in depth journalism, and she has this job working for a jerk in this local rag, guess not a rag in this local newsletter. So she has to deal with her boss. She's also being stalked by someone. And she's trying to investigate these, these plaques and the murders that they the deaths that they represent, and then the subsequent death, that was the result of the first one, and starting to unravel her family history. So how did you keep track of all the storylines,
I used a spreadsheet. I used a computer package called Scrivener. I don't know if other writers have mentioned it. It's a bit like Word. But it's aimed at writers and you can move chapters around very easily as part of it has a cork board, like you were put on a wall with post it notes. But it's a virtual one. So it's not a real one. So it's good if you don't have a big wall anywhere else. And I use that I use that I made a lot of lists. And I kept going back and I kept changing things and dates and everything it was it took me two and a half years to write the redeemer in total. And that's partly because I have a full time day job as well. But a lot of it was thinking as well and just trying to plot it and get it right.
definitely kept me turning pages. So another theme is justice and revenge. So what is the difference between those?
I guess justice is within the law. Whereas revenge isn't revenge is can be calculated. But it's likely to be a violent crime. Whereas justice to me is going to be as I said, within the law, there is a very, very fine line between the, as my book does reveal.
So your day job is a journalist. So how much of you is written into Shana's journalistic career.
My day job is very, very different. I don't travel for it. I sit at home, at a desk, usually the dining table working I write for health magazines. And I also edit I proofread fiction and nonfiction for publishers. So I have a very, very different job. On the other hand, I do understand deadlines, and I do understand what it's like to be working as a full time writer. And also she was working on a local magazine. And I know what it's like to work on a magazine, so I could use that. But on a day to day work previously as a travel journalist was very different to my day job.
So you mentioned that some of the anti semitic events which show up in the book were personal ones to you, but it looks like you did some research on that also of anti semitic problems in England. What surprised you in your research?
I was surprised by the scale of it, although I've been following it for Some years I follow it via websites and social media are very active on Twitter and Facebook. So I do see it. What surprised me is how much there is in relation to what is published in the national media, certainly in Britain, so there are a lot of things going on, but they don't meet the national newspapers or the news. But they're covered by the Jewish or the local newspapers. And this meant talking to friends who aren't Jewish, they didn't realize the scale of it, until they met me. For many of them. I'm the first Jew that they've met. And these are people I've met, through publishing and books. And they've learned a lot through me, and they didn't realize the scale of it. And this is actually that's something that a lot of readers have said that they didn't understand how much anti semitism there is in Britain. And also they've learned a lot about Judaism in terms of culture, and heritage and the traditions.
Yeah, that's similar here. Unless there's a mass shooting, you don't hear of just the every day harassments and smaller things. So Shana meets a Jewish couple, who explained to her, as he said, some some Jewish customs and about Shabbat. And she is just stunned to learn that they turn off all their electronics, including their phones, that sort of a freakout moment, the thought of doing without her phone for 24 or 26 hours.
Yes.
Do you have a Do you practice a technology Sabbath?
Yes, we do. We're, the community in the Redeemer is very similar to my own community. But communities in the UK or Britain, as far as I'm aware, are quite difficult to different to a lot of those in the US. So you will have what is known as an orthodox, modern Orthodox community. But people will be members of the synagogue, some practicing nothing, some practicing everything. It's a very diverse community, but it's still considered to be a modern Orthodox community. So as a family, yes, we do keep Shabbat Sabbath. So a lot of the practices in the book are practices that I am aware of, and I use myself. There are others that I don't so so it was a learning curve for me. And a lot of the learning curve for me was, why these things are done, because I'm traditional. So I do these things, and my parents do certain things. But there are the things that I've never really thought, why do we do them? It's just following what we do. But certainly within the UK community or British community, as I said, you have that diversity within a particular area members of one synagogue. And that's what I wanted to get across. A lot of people who aren't Jewish in Britain, when they read about Jews. They're looking at the ultra orthodox communities. That's what features in the newspapers and in the media, it's been the subject of a lot of Netflix series as well. They don't they don't realize that there are practicing Jews who are just like them, who, who have normal jobs who are normal clothes. You know, they don't women don't cover their hair. They might wear trousers, or shorts, or sleeveless tops. But they still practice their religion. And that's something I wanted to get across in my book that I'm using. What's a normal, average, modern Orthodox community in the UK? We do have other communities that are less religious, and obviously more religious that I was going for the, the sort of middle of the road orthodox.
Yeah, that does sound very different from here. Where, of course within any congregation, there's some difference, but not nearly that diversity of practice, I think especially among the different orthodox congregations. Yes, yes. So that's interesting for me to learn. Yes. So what drew you to writing a mystery? This is your first novel, right?
It's my first novel. I always wanted to write crime fiction from a very young age. I started off reading Enid Blyton's the famous Viva secret seven. They were very big in the UK. I don't know if they were that big in the USA. And I was just fascinated by crime fiction. As I got older, I just knew I wanted to write it. And I took a biomedical science degree with plans to go into forensics. When I was 16. I in fact, watched the post mortem. A long story at my local hospital. I thought at the time, I was standing outside the room. And I just knew that was what I wanted to do. So I, so I took my biomedical science degree. But then in my final year, I realized how much I loved writing. So I took a master's in science communication, and became the health journalist instead. So I didn't actually go into forensics, but that interest was still there. So I knew that I always want to write crime fiction. And that's generally what I read as well.
Until somewhat recently, it hadn't been one of my favorite genres. I read the occasional one. But I think past six years or so with the, with the political situation in the United States, and then the pandemic, I really wanted something where, at the end of the book, a problem was solved. And life went back to normal. It just seemed like a really needed satisfying thing that, you know, problems could be solved.
I think that's like crime fiction that you that it, It delves into the darkest depths of human nature. But you're counteracting that with someone who's investigating something to try and put it right. And for me, that's escapism, whereas other people escape with the feel good. Feel good fiction. And that's not for me. I like to see a mystery and solve it. Obviously, that stems also from Agatha Christie, who was one of the biggest influences on me as a teenager, for example, where she had all the clues and you had to put them together. And I think I think that also stems from ... I like jigsaws, for example, the word searches. And I think that stems from that I like puzzles. And it was a challenge writing Redeemer to fit all those jigsaw pieces together, and put the clues in different places. And then when I asked friends initially to read it was a friends I mean, a crime author and a reviewer. I was really worried thinking, Is this too obvious? Is it working? And they actually loved the book? They said, yes. But that was a worry. And I think it is, I think with a mystery, it's solving something. It's making something right in the end, the bad person getting there come up. You can sort of share at the end, and I like that for me. You it's overcoming the darkness in life,
I think. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. As I said, I've been just kind of devouring it the past several years. That my on the cover of your book, it says a Shana Regan murder mystery. So does that mean that there will be another Shana Regan murder mystery coming?
Yes, that's the plan. I am writing it at the moment. I need to speed up. I'm doing it alongside the day job. It was actually planned on the whole around two years ago, when I finished the Redeemer. But for various reasons, I didn't carry on with it. But I've now gone back to it. So yes, there will be another one. With Shana a couple of familiar characters as well. She will be looking into the disappearance of a young woman. So that is the nature of the book. It will also have Jewish themes, very different, but still some Jewish themes, and also looking into interfaith projects as well.
Excellent. I look forward to seeing it when it comes out. So are there any things you'd like to answer that I haven't thought to ask?
Not really, to be honest, I'm trying to think, I suppose research wise. I did do quite a bit of research. When I was writing the Redeemer. I actually ended up a lot of the time on Twitter and social media, looking at anti semitism. I had to psych myself up for that, because that's very hard to deal with. At times. I visited Jewish museums and Holocaust exhibitions. And just after I finished the book I actually visited visited Auschwitz and other sites in Poland, which was a real life changing experience. I've never felt ready to do it until I finished writing the Redeemer. i At that point, I felt I need to do this. I need to go there and I need to see it and experience it.
I wouldn't say that it's on my bucket list, but that is something I'd like to do at some point. One thing that I appreciated about the book is that Shana did do some of her research in the library and spoke about how helpful people were bringing out carts full of old newspapers and everything. So as a librarian, I appreciated that that point that not everything is on the internet yet, and that the library is there to help with your research.
Well, I actually went to the newspaper in London, to research a book. And I did read old newspapers. So the chapter in the book is more more than one chapter that deal with that are actually based on my experience at the library with the heavy folios of old newspapers. And what she found again, that was some of the research that I did for the book, I went to the newspaper library and experienced it and just experienced the past different eras and what was going on.
Wonderful. So if someone were to use your book as a call to action for tikkun olam, for repairing the world, or if there's any other thing you would like to mention, what would it be?
I'd say tackling racism is really important. And one of the underlying issues there is a lack of education, when it comes to intolerance, and I would say, getting involved in local interfaith initiatives is important. Educating people who aren't Jewish, especially children, and teenagers, about Judaism, and then about their religions as well. And different cultures, maybe simply by explaining Jewish traditions, to non Jewish family and friends on social media, and showing that Jews are like everyone else. I think a lot of people do you see Jews as these ultra religious people living in close communities because of what the media portrays and TV programs are portraying. And they don't realize that Jewish people are just like them. And we're just normal. And I think that's really important. And that's something that I wanted to get across in the Redeemer, that that there are practicing Jews, certainly in the UK and Britain, leading lives like everyone else.
So if people would like to connect with you, what is the best way?
One way to do it is on Twitter. I'm at Victoria goldma2, which is without the n and a two in its place. Another way to do it is via my website, which is VGoldmanbooks.com. And I do have a Facebook page, which is Victoria Goldman books. All right.
Well, thank you, Victoria Goldman, for speaking with me about the Redeemer.
Thank you very much.
If you are interested in any of the books we discussed today, you can find them at your favorite board brick or online bookstore, or at your local library. Thanks to Die Yan Kee for use of his fraleigh which definitely makes me happy. This podcast is a project of the Association of Jewish libraries. And you can find more about it at WWW dot Jewish libraries.org/nice Jewish books. I would like to thank ajl and my podcast mentor Heidi Rabinowitz. Keep listening for the promo for her latest episode.
This is Shannon Lambie, author of the very best Ahsoka, a story from Uganda. I'll be joining you soon on the Book of Life podcast. I would like to dedicate my bodyguards to my very good friend Teddy Coyne in Evanston, Illinois, who makes me feel smart and makes me feel like I can do certain things in the world, and for encouraging me and making me believe that I can write this book
the book of life is the sister podcast of nice Jewish books. I'm your host, Heidi Rabinowitz and I podcast about Jewish kidlet. Join me in October 2022, to hear my conversation with Shoshana Nambi, about the very best soccer Book of Life podcast.com
