Internet freedom and independent press in 2023 – a view from India | Global Journalism Seminar with Apar Gupta of the Internet Freedom Foundation | Otter.ai

Internet freedom and independent press in 2023 – a view from India | Global Journalism Seminar with Apar Gupta of the Internet Freedom Foundation

Reuters Institute1h 1min

Mitali Mukherjee

00:10

Well, hello, and welcome to the global journalism seminar. We usually start off with a bit of a video. Let's see if we can cue that up in the next few seconds. But if not, we'll just swing right into it. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining in. There's been tremendous response actually, as we set out the context of what we're going to speak about today, because it's sort of housed within the experience in a market like India, but I think much of what we're going to discuss echoes across the world really at this point, more so as we head into what could be seen as a critical year for journalism as well next year, when a number of countries are heading into election mode. We're discussing internet freedom and we're discussing what happens to press freedom in that context. But there's so many layers within that, and I am delighted to welcome our guest for today upower Gupta, Executive Director of the Internet Freedom Foundation. Aside from that, of course, a bar has been an extremely vocal voice around issues of digital privacy, digital safety, and the ramifications of that for every society apart. It is a pleasure to have you here. Thank you for joining in and thank you for making time for this. I have for our conversation, at least 12 pages of notes, which I think is an indication of how much we should be talking about and how how we're going to do it in one hour. I don't know. But maybe it would be useful to sort of approach this with the pockets that we could explore. You know, one of course being around law, the other round being a completely different category, which is surveillance, online surveillance the other being you know, what is the role here for policy? What is the role of a platform? And of course, the all important one, what are the lessons that we can learn from here? So let me start by just laying out the context of what you think you were discussing when we talk about digital rights and I came across an interview where you said something quite interesting, which is that digital rights are the realisation of values in the constitution of India's preamble, justice, equality, fraternity liberty, this is India, but I think those four words should work for every community that we're discussing. What do you feel we talk about, we should think about when we're talking about this concept of digital rights?

Apar Gupta

02:30

Thank you so much for having me here. metalli. I'm grateful for every person who's joined in the artists to fellows for you to host me. I think this is a critical conversation. Given that the mission of journalism, at its simplistic core is to uncover truth with a view towards understanding how power operates, and today power to a large extent, is distributed as well as enforced through systems which our technological as a society has become more and more digitized. Now, when I refer to the preambular values of the Constitution of India, it is a good reason and it goes back to my own. It goes back to my own early optimism, some of which has met a greater degree of rationalization, because I started out in with a with a unfounded belief that a greater level of tele connectivity as well as Internet access would by its own by its own. afford a very high degree of civic participation is what I would like to say. So more people coming online would mean that the quality of democracy would improve and only about two weeks back, I was sitting with some civil society leaders, and they were saying that it's not only a mistake for digitization, that's been a common mistake. Where we have thought that pathways to economic development, reduction of inequality would by itself automatically lead to to a lot of the kind of democratic deeper democratic values which are liberty, which also have equality because, in fact, inequality has risen over a period of time, which is also fraternity people getting along with each other. And I don't think so people get along with each other. If they're online, that doesn't seem to be the default there. We can agree on that. There's other things as well, social justice, for instance, and social justice is a very important value because all of the other or innocence, facets which come down to an individual, but how does it operate within a group? I think there has been a greater degree of pessimism and it is also reflected in the much more recent kind of reports such as the Freedom House index, which surveys premium off the net, and has thematic topics each year. This year. It's related to artificial intelligence, but the year before that it 2022 relate to the rise of digital authoritarianism. So I find myself working on that much more frequently. It unpacks different thematic issues which emerged from freedom of expression, surveillance, individual privacy, and much more recently, how systems of AI are being used words prevent preventing accountability in welfare systems and exclusion, which is happening very rapidly across India.

Mitali Mukherjee

05:26

I wonder bar if you and I choose our outfit colors with sort of the danger of the conversation and I wonder what you know, the next arrow point is when you go from optimism to realism, I don't want to ask where you end up. But I do want to make those arrow marks on an important point that you raised. About the concept of power. And the concept of, you know, having power over sort of digital landscapes in that context. let's map it and let's map it with for instance, the journey of law first, which seems to be the the natural first step in trying to in trying to grab that power or in trying to wield that power.

Apar Gupta

06:02

Yes, yes. So, India as a post colonial country, one of the greatest transformations of independence has to be the realization of the ability of a human being to realize the full participation in a society as opposed to a colonial country right. So that's the very thing which you fought for. And very, very clear articulation for that is contained within the Constitution of India, specifically part three, which contains fundamental rights. Now as a written constitution. It also has a system of governance, which is a federal setup between the state government and the central government. It has Houses of Parliament, it has an executive branch, it has a judicial branch. And these are essentially the organs of the state, which, at least idealistically, as per the constitution should result in the fulfilment of fundamental rights, but it's also pragmatically realized at the time of the drafting of the Constitution itself, that the fundamental rights essentially also act as guarantees against the union executive which is much more common than any other brands to encroach upon individual freedom. And these freedoms are not only freedoms of individual liberty, like freedom of speech and expression in India, it has a deeper social justice understanding, for instance, the freedom to religion for minority groups to preach, practice, propagate the religion. So it's a wide assortment of rights, which were traditionally not there. Now. What's happened is that we have gone through a move. We've gone from essentially a country which has been enjoying sense of independence, but has not really been able to completely achieve these objectives over a period of time, because we know a lot of sense like many other countries are a post colonial country now even as much as India practices an electoral form of democracy. There are larger questions, including within a recent special issue in the Journal of democracy, whether those are actually being met. And if you read those essays there are about six essays which are written by people who specialize on writing the academy scholars who serve a political economy, the landscape in India they have specific sections which deal with how internet based technologies are being used more and more to actually not only take away the fundamental rights or threaten them, but also the systems and the institutions of governance which are becoming much more centralized much more big in the way they take decisions, for instance, how they enforce blanket internet shutdowns, which India is now leading, and that's a very shameful statistic to read and globally. It

Mitali Mukherjee

08:49

is indeed and I'm gonna come to that in a bit but I just want to sort of, you know, scratch the point about law for a second apart it's it's a two part question, you know, one to use the example of India where most recently we have in August 23, the digital Personal Data Protection Act, which has some sort of hair raising elements to it, you know, self regulation, checking on content, reporting content. You know, just, you know, jump off from that, if you will, and walk people who are listening and watching through what, what the ramifications of that can be. And secondly, are there sort of other global examples that pop up when we look at the way that law has been has been worded?

Apar Gupta

09:37

So Mithali I draw very frequently from basically conceptual frameworks, which are made and it helps me basically also look at the final text of the law and place it in the larger landscape. So here I will make reference to the National Endowment for democracies framework, which focuses on our technology is being used and why there is a shrinking of democratic spaces globally, and it says democracy is being threatened globally more and more as an idea which is open to contestation. So it's not the only form of representative government, which should be here today. And what it says very tangibly is that technology is one driver among many, for instance, there's a growth in kleptocracy and centralization of power, in which certain firms which are presumed to be national champions are representing the nationalistic economic interests of a country preferred industrial policy, which is set by the government how is this reflected within the Digital Data Protection Act? The first is I have written an op ed in the Hindustan Times in which I've said that there was a 12 year long institutional process at the very least while beers which resulted in form of a law which was completely disregarded without adequate justification. And this version of the law, which was then promulgated, ladies legislated through Parliament was done without adequate consultation or justification. When the law was published for public consultation, it was it was stated by the cabinet minister that it had its primary benefit is that it is comprehensible and law is known to be very complex, jargon heavy so if you look at a comparable legislation, like the European Union's General Data Protection Regulation, the GDPR then if you compare it to the Indian digital Data Protection Act, you are left wondering why and how have they achieved making this law only in 47 sections in such simple language, but when you look at it from the perspective of a lawyer, you recognize that a lot of the principal ingredients, the core policy decisions, which should be made by a legislative body have been left to the Union executive, which means the ministers who run the day to day government. So it essentially goes against the not only the constitutional framework in which you know, the legislature sets the policy the executive enforces it, but it also then increases PA on a case to case basis discretionary discretionary PA on how it will be applied because they know ingredients in the loins. Now, let me just come to one or two examples how that may affect people. The first is that it can range in a large level of exemptions or application of the law, which means the government can decide who it applies for and who it does not apply to. And it can make this exemption with respect to one single country without any clear criteria. So isn't that curious? The second is this is the only data protection law which rather than giving only rights to people like you and me, whose data is gathered, also puts duties on us. And these duties are to provide complete information which in fact, increases the amount of personal data which is held about individuals give accurate information and also undermines autonomy for instance, in a deeply unequal patriarchal society like India. I know a lot of my friends who are women give out incomplete details on online applications because they fear very immediate consequences which which which may range from stalking to just unpleasant experience. Right. And finally, it does, it damages transparency because It amends the Right to Information Law in India, which is essentially comparable to the United States where the federal government provides you any information on the basis of which he takes administrative decisions. So we have a comparable law in Hindi here, which is called the Right to Information Act. And this says that if any information reveals personal information, that if it's a government document, for instance, the award of a tender for the construction of a road or electricity supply, and there is a historic issue of corruption and India, then because it's revealing the name of a contractor, then that information cannot be disclosed. And so it results in obesity, costs duties. on individual citizens and has wide discretionary power, thereby providing a huge amount of executive control. Just

Mitali Mukherjee

14:31

one final point on this aspect of law, you know, before we move to other parts of the conversation about you know, walk us through what this means in the shoes of a small to medium sized newsroom that is possibly digital that works on fairly limited financial resources, and now has fairly onerous demands on them, including the accountability that you mentioned, a compliance officer has been talked about over the years. Your content can be immediately flagged. And ultimately, you know, the agency that decides whether or not your content is inflammatory or something that is not to be put out, actually rests back with the state.

Apar Gupta

15:13

I think to a large extent, will cause a lot of problems for people who are engaged in journalism first at the very threshold stage of of yes, so a lot of journalists actually do file RTI in India, because the government does not make proactive disclosures on the basis of which it's taking decisions. And quite often this is done by publications which are not there in metropolitan cities, which are looking or trying to get to know what's happening in a small district in a smaller geography far removed from the Delhi Bombay, Calcutta. And they are essentially those journalists which kind of try to show how government decision making is not being done properly to check essentially, that the money from the public Exchequer is being spent in a manner which is actually consistent because there is a actually a very deep problem of contractor politician nexus in India, there is a large amount of corruption where public funds tenders are awarded and work is not done or it's done in a substandard way, which then again, causes a lot of injury loss of life, collapse of bridges, which is very common in India, and we are seeing that in several Indian states. So even with respect to what happens subsequent to that, I think it's just the discovery, the querying of information, which will become much more limited and this act act acts as a legal basis towards that. The second is that while research, archiving, those kinds of exemptions are there, a lot of that is determined by the central government. It will come out with rules regarding them, and from what we've seen with respect to the recent as well as the last few years in terms of how delegated legislation has been tweaked and made the government essentially at the central level, which is the union government is looking at controlling more and more of the journalism space and India with a view towards not only crushing independent journalism, but actively making it partisan. So we need to think about it in the sense that not only will people go small and medium into journalism outfits, not be allowed to conduct journalism, but larger corporate entity entities, which then also have a media arm which is most of the Indian brought television broadcast media today, may be permitted may be given information and the law may not be enforced against it. So it will work in those ways. And that's why a lot of RTI activist people from journalism are really concerned as to the application enforcement of this law. But a lot of it does depend on the rules, which we think may come out in the next few

Mitali Mukherjee

18:10

months. Yeah, and it's a good time for me to say for those who are watching, if you have questions, just pop them in the chat box. I'll see you know what I can take depending on time. Let me move to the second aspect of it which you touched upon upon which is internet shutdowns as you said, maximum number for India. Within that I think from 2012 and counting Jammu Kashmir is probably on top as a state as we speak Manipur has seen multiple instances at last count it was 35 or 36. It's probably gone up. I mean, you know, it's very simplistic to sort of use the term internet shutdowns I think a lot of people often don't understand what what that really means in terms of a living impact both as someone who's living in that space, and more importantly, as someone who's trying to report from that space, where you face complete lack of access to anything online.

Apar Gupta

19:04

So this is based. Some parts of this are based off of what happened with respect to the internet shutdown in Jammu and Kashmir. So when the state specialist status was invoked, which is article 370, that very day there was a complete communication platform. So it wasn't only an internet shut down, even phone lines were not operational. And when the internet was restored, it was done in a manner which came through a process of litigation conflict, as well as a large amount of advocacy which included a tweet by Rihanna, which caused a diplomatic incident. I encourage people to look at it because it seems that what caused the government of India to restore internet and my friends joke about it and not the three cases apart you did in the Supreme Court, but it was a tweet by Rihanna. So like, I hope that popstars people who hold cultural capital do comment on issues which affect the public interest much more regularly. The point which I'm coming to is that the journalists who are there in Jammu and Kashmir have all always been under a very repressive environment with security laws, they have been arrested, preventively detained and there are a large number of them which face threats very frequently, and they operate in such a difficult environment knowing that they can be arrested at any point in time. It's important to then understand that when they are putting out reports, even when the internet was partially restored, and the state was being reorganized politically, it's essentially been seen decades of conflict and unease. It is very important for accurate news reports to get out if India wants to claim a status as a democratic country, right. Other parts of the country need to be accurately informed and this will come from ground reporting from the not only from the press releases by the government of India now, when the terminals were set up for specific journalists to report from there. Actually, there was a high amount of presidents of government officials that thereby they could even see what reports were being typed, how they were talking to the newsrooms, and this is very important for people to understand. And this has given rise for me to draw an impression that Ethernet shutdowns quite often when they're justified for by people by stating, firstly, there's no evidence to back up this claim, empirically, that internet shutdowns lead to a prevention of violence as well as destruction of property. There is an absence of evidence in India, and this has also been stated by the standing committee or the standing committee of the Indian parliament. So my view is since it's not fulfilling the purpose that the state is saying for which it's imposing an internet shutdown, which actually is not limited to specific district also but to an entire state which has millions of people and they can't operate the internet for more than 500 days. It basically puts them back into a pre digital age when the rest of the society the entitlements, their services, remote education, commercial transactions, personal relationships are all dependent on the internet. So why is it doing it and I keep asking myself that question, but I found this answer to it a little much more convincingly. I took my time when on May 3, the state government of Manipur shut down the internet there and are still continuing to shut it down with respect to mobile based internet access. And mobile based internet access is the primary mode of how people in India access the internet. And again I think it is due to the state interest in controlling information in setting a narrative that we have shut down the internet and in Jammu and Kashmir because we reorganizing the state the only reports which come out which to a large extent come out are the ones which we decide how they come out. There's no citizen journalism. There's a there's a high amount of censorship which is there. So essentially, you believe the government that what are the claims that it's making, but to a large extent, true that the state is happy that this organic reorganization of that state in terms of it being broken up into three different states at a future date right now as a unit territory, its special status being removed. It's all being done peacefully, and it's going after a plan. Similarly, in Manipur when there's an ethnic conflict between two communities the state shuts down the toilet because it says it wants to prevent violence. But if you look at the orders, they basically are extending every five days and they have extended till date today. And what they have done when partial restoration has been done in parts, has made the rest of India because Manipur is the smallest state just have 2 million people, about 2.5 million people. So a lot of people don't know what's happening there. So we don't care. The rest of India does not care what's happening in Manipur. So we go by the claims of the state government. We think there's violence happening. There's so much happening in our world. And our public attention, urgency, joining, demanding accountability from the state government wide can't restore law and order does. And here I think so it serves its own interest in terms of avoiding any kind of questioning which may emerge from political voices on the ground reporting on the ground. In Manipur, actually, when incrementally it was restored, there were there were videos of sexual violence, which went viral. And that was the very point on which common people in India not people who are working on research policy in journalism, first started caring and noticed what was actually been happening in Manipur since May 3. The video was actually short on May 4, but was released I think, sometime in August or a little before June, July, June July coming out

Mitali Mukherjee

25:06

what's the most what's the most effective way to take this on? As you know, as sort of the legal community or the journalistic community apart because in this we are top runners but not unique? You know, if you look at the shutdowns across the world, there's India, Pakistan, there's Iran. There's a bunch of Asian countries it happens across the African continent as well. And as you said, it's a gray zone that is often played on which is national security, which is safety and security of people within the region. What's the best way to take on this sort of continuing habit of internet shutdowns

Apar Gupta

25:44

so I think internet shutdowns represent the the feature of a post colonial state which is on its path to democracy. So because I'm optimist, I think we are on the path to democracy like that, okay, because it's relying on a disproportionate action of social control, which is very reminiscent of how colonial states work, right. They inflict disproportionate injury. They rely on tarsal forms of violence. They restrain people in different manners and weight in order to discipline them, right. So this is the state acting, how it will, how it will as opposed colonias, it won't give it its pass. So I think there will be a need for journalists to report it with a deeper level of introspection as to what damage it causes to ordinary people. I think ordinary people who have access to the internet in very huge numbers in India I think close to about 900 million active Internet connections out there need to be the front and center of journalism as to the impact it's causing on them. It's only when their voices are heard, they're reported, that they gain legitimacy. So it exists in the world. Okay, and I think over a period of time, there is a very real possibility, given the imposition of internet shutdowns increasing in frequency increasing in geography and increasing in period in terms of its how long they stretch that it does become a popular issue on which they can be voting choices which can be also influenced over a period of time. For instance, a politician who says in a geography with has suffered internet shutdown for six months that I will try to restore the law in order here without shutting down the internet. By looking at approaches which may be building trust between different communities who lack it at present, may may, in fact, not be taken with a higher degree of apprehension because I think even people who have not experienced internet shutdowns quite often feel that so what if you're shutting down the internet until it actually happens to them right. So I think it also Internet shutdowns exist in India and to this frequency because ordinary Indians are also used. And sometimes, unfortunately, I will say even invite a greater degree of police powers because they believe that greater degree of discipline is required in Indian society and this is a truth we need to confront. And I think it will only be confronted when there is greater journalism for instance, in Manipur, if students are hurt, who are not getting their money to pay rent when they're studying in metropolitan cities where local business traders are hurt where they cannot sell. The local producer Manipur has very rich produce in terms of condiments, spices, etc. For instance, when the tourism people who operate tourism towards to impel will similarly not hurt. So these are the voices which need to be centered in terms of the impacts of internet shutdowns and when it becomes a human story, I think that is when you start seeing a degree of positive movement in the realm of policy and politics. And

Mitali Mukherjee

29:13

also happening in other states. Honestly, I'm in Punjab, Bihar, it's happened across many other states on much more sort of flimsy reasons. Which brings me to you know, the last most sticky pillar maybe of all of this, which is online surveillance. I spoke around Pegasus I think, and there was lots exploding at that point that was truly global in nature. There is almost a bravado for many country governments. That invest and nurture surveillance technology. In India itself. There are a couple of projects that are you know, still in the mix and have been considered. There are countries like Israel as well that have been appointed to in terms of their surveillance technology. That's that's a difficult one. For especially when you are trying to report responsibly and independently.

Apar Gupta

30:03

That is correct. And I think surveillance today, for many friends who are journalists, is somewhat of a feature of their job. They stepping into journalism, knowing that they will that digital devices, it's not the old days where you notice somebody following you awkwardly, like a Pink Panther movie, but it's somebody who will be having access to your emails, your messages, your personal conversations, and it's happening very frequently in India. So it happens both technically because the Pegasus project revealed that the, the highest number of people there were two categories who were infected with that spyware and this has been validated by Amnesty labs as a forensic and investigation and then cross check by Citizen Lab for journalists and the second one opposition politicians. So journalists, it's not a hypothetical, arming surveilled by advanced spyware technologies in India, but in addition to that, what we also see metalli happening much more recently, the use of very flimsy factually flimsy cases under national security laws in India, which lead to wide ranging device seizures, in which a person's phone laptop tablet, who's a journalist is confiscated and most recently, what's happened with respect to the news clip case. And even when these devices are confiscated, the investigatory processes which require which require the which are required to maintain the integrity of the device as it has seen for instance, providing a hash value which is generated so something which is changed in that device will then not match that hash value. So you know that there's been tampering when the police had after the police has seized it or not in place in India today. So it's making it more and more difficult for journalists to report especially on areas which touch upon politics, economy, society, religion, which are incredibly important and quite often within a range of conflict with the political program or the majoritarian ism in India, while it leaves open pockets of lifestyle consumerism, which is very important to understand. So I think what we will see is a tradition of talent of young journalists in India who either pick up PR jobs, or they shift to safer domains rather than doing this really critical work which they may enjoy, which they want to do, but they just can't do it any longer because they're fearing that their that their entire life is essentially being examined constantly, in order for them to trip up even slightly, and they are being placed under examination. So they they feel under attack in a way and that's what surveillance is in India today. A feeling of insecurity a feeling of fear, and I'm saying this on the basis of several conversations I've had with journalists every time their devices in India they call me they tell me what to do. And quite often I say yes, you signal etc. But will it really help if they asked me then a bar will it really help? A police person? If a policeman comes to my door and asked me just to handle my device and unlock it? What happens then? And there? Mitali the law is unclear, right? And also, you don't want to get into a contest with a policeman in India because given the rule of law, you may actually suffer some amount of coercion or physical force.

Mitali Mukherjee

33:58

And there is I think, you know, the unsaid layer of power of financial harrassment in this situation, which is on when you you know, impose laws that demand so much accountability, there's a cost involved with it. And the second being that when you invite this kind of legal tussle, you invite a legal cost with it. So you know, for smaller organizations to support those young journalists also becomes quite difficult in a situation when they're crumbling under their own financial pressure. You know, one sort of last question from me before I move to the broader questions, which is I know, you mentioned that journalists call you and ask you what to do, which is what I'm asking you. What do you do as a journalist or an organization to at least ring fenced yourself to some degree.

Apar Gupta

34:42

So, there are some guides which have been published by the Internet Freedom Foundation, which are on the digital Patrick car defense clinic, Patrick car is the Hindi words for journalist and they deal primarily with a wide assortment of laws. What do you do practical answers and questions. In addition to that, there's another resource for digital security, which is published by the Electronic Frontier Foundation EFF, which is called the digital self defense league. I'll send the link across to you mentally, but beyond that, I think so. I think individually, there is only so much a person can do. They can adopt good, what is called as digital hygiene or digital security practices. But a lot of the digital security also involves a huge amount of time, behavioral change, as well as a consistent need to follow it. So it's, it's much more difficult than just, you know, and also it's not really possible in India, for instance, it's not always possible to talk to your contact on WhatsApp or on or on even WhatsApp. If they don't have a smartphone. If they have a smartphone. You can't ask them to install signal to talk to them because you're a journalist just because you can't sometimes. So it's a complex thing. So my final prescription here I think so. And something which does offer some degree of for instance, IFF is representing the foundation for media professionals. And this is a learning I take away from many organizers globally, such as Naomi Klein from the climate, Justice Movement, etc. is to organize is to come together form associations or participate in existing ones. I think the only way out of these problems is for people to come together not only in the metropolitan cities, which do extent today have organized in India, but also in the smaller cities the B the c tire cities in India with a smaller voting population as well as economic activity as well as smaller towns they need to organize towards a common mission, because technology has changed so much, and yet the legal protections don't match it. And today you can be censored and your devices can be snatched without safeguards. So this can be a common agreement which can be reached even amongst journalists who disagree amongst with each other on bases of the political spectrum. They're that they fall off, or if even if they don't fall on any I think organizing is one takeaway I recommend to any journalist who's watching here. There are some associations I like to mention Digi pub for digital news publishers that operates both at the individual as well as the organizational level. There's a foundation for media professionals, which has much more senior editors, but you can send a query they are accepting, etc. They don't have a lot of resources. There's the Press Club in India and more people need to join that as well. And also these clubs and these associations need to also be much more inviting and embrace and expansionary in the Outlook.

Mitali Mukherjee

37:56

Absolutely. There's a bunch of great questions online. I think some of it we address so let me go straight to our room. Where our journalist fellows from across the world going to do have questions that have been posted and the first is to Mars Andre Mar is from Burkina Faso. That's just for your reference apart. Omar. Hi. If you'd like to go ahead with your question, we can come on and questions coming

Unknown Speaker

38:33

from booking officer

Mitali Mukherjee

38:36

can't see you sorry, before you start, so if someone who could just address that in the room that be great

Speaker 1

38:41

I think we need the host to start the video. Okay.

Mitali Mukherjee

38:47

Well, why don't you go ahead while I try to get that out

Speaker 2

38:55

okay, so I have a question is about internet. It seems to be a kind of space of no room where you have a lot of disinformation going on fake news. So how can government regulate this space properly without being seen as someone who is a regime that is restricting freedom of internet? And also the second question is related to something that is happening in my country? So the government has decided to consider all the social media users who have reached 5000 and more followers has a news media has the media and want to rule them? Like, you know, the way they will the traditional media? Can it be considered has a restriction of freedom or is it accurate to do so?

Apar Gupta

40:11

So I agree with you that there's a large amount of disinformation which is online, my own view towards regulatory approaches, which are focused much more directly in deep in criminalizing disinformation are fairly clear. So I think creating a new law, which makes it a criminal offense to spread disinformation in isolation is somewhat counterproductive, especially in settings where you have post colonial countries like India, where the application and the practice of the law quite often is partisan. It's not even handed right. So you have to take into account the creation of criminal remedy at the point of conceptualization as to how it will be used. Right quite often. So that's that's one thing which is clear for me. And I've also I, I lean much more towards a free expression orientation just on disinformation because I think people lie. People like to listen to lies and I think lies by themselves are not criminal in isolation. However, when you bundle that up with other things, for instance, a false statement, which also dehumanizes a particular community with the intention of causing violence, which fits within a UN framework in the EU UDHR that is hate speech. So I think it can be an ingredient within existing law. Now, what can be done to solve it in that sense, right? And here I have been I've been fairly clear in this I say that the basis of the disinformation are the basis of the platforms and the basis of the platforms or the economic model. The economic model is surveillance, which is done constantly which has an incentive towards gathering more personal information. From the users and keeping them for longer periods of time. It's the snakes. It's the tale of the snake which is eating itself again and again and again. And what keeps us much more engaged, unfortunately, happens to be things which play to our cognitive biases. So my worldview, and you may guess my worldview from the color of this t shirt, right now, I happen to be on a specific political spectrum. And so I will be shown that over a period of time to make me look at that website, and that will include disinformation rather than country checks, which are there and here, I think work which has been done by article 19, about two years back in terms of its white papers, which look at questioning the business model. The business model of large social media platforms is what is more important rather than just looking at the content layer, which is that this person said that I think this is a systemic problem. And you have to look at the system. And when you look at the system, you have to look at why is the system doing it and the system is doing it because it's a traded company, which is listed on the stock exchange and needs to show earnings report. The earnings come from x. The second thing I will just say is that what can the government then do? And I have been advocating that for a long period of time. It's the old school approach of public broadcast, but which is done with independence or autonomy, and for the digital age. I think we need digital broadcast systems which need to be set independent of platforms, but not also completely excluding them, rather than the government reaching out or paying influencers for its public political agenda. So I think public broadcast with autonomy for for institution essentially is what is needed, because you also need to deepen and strengthen the common social values which are under threat through disinformation today, and that's happening across country. No final question with respect to 5000 people, people with more than 5000 followers being required to register as a media entity, a large degree of my answer will be dependent on what does that classification then reside? Just not a labeling by itself? I'll pause here because I may have to take other questions as well. You

Mitali Mukherjee

44:38

absolutely do and I was going to say we have 15 minutes I hope we can make it through all of them. The next question from our journalist is from Christine, a woman from the United States. Christina, go ahead.

Speaker 3

44:49

Hi, thank you. I just wanted to follow up about some of the strategies you mentioned for protection, especially considering how important journalism and the internet is as a tool. You mentioned some how surveillance and things like that were pushing journalists out but I also was wondering what strategies or tools can journalists or individuals use to counter some of the level of harassment that's happening specifically to female journalists?

Apar Gupta

45:20

So I think female journalists in India are specifically being targeted and historically have been targeted for their political opinions, irrespective of whether they questioned government power or they even are partisan toward the government at a given point in time, and it is gendered abuse, which emerges from that, in fact, Amnesty India went through. Empirically it went through the tweets and it found that women female anchors are targeted much more strongly or they're just in a way there's the sexualized in terms of their how they look is much more important or how they act with spend more scrutiny. So I think it's harassment which is not only harassment in the form of a journalist being abused. It's harassment in the form of a journalist not being taken as a journalist, but first being taken as a woman. And here the primary problem which comes through when I talk to my, my female friends who are journalists is that they say that there's a sense of crowding, which happens online, in which, especially in India, in which men seem to drive the conversation, or enter the conversation, or just send so many messages in a sense, and that's across social media that's across how engagement is done, and then it inevitably becomes gendered. And the basis for that is that Internet access in India is deeply unequal. It's an equal to the point where I read a statistic today on Twitter that the gender breakup or people on dating apps in India is 95% men and 5% women. Yeah. So and it's an equal to the point also significantly, where regression analysis has shown that when there was an online vaccination portal for obtaining the COVID vaccine, then more men got vaccinated that women in the 18 to 38 age group, which is the only way to get vaccinated because more men own smartphones, it's economic. So my primary recommendation again and again is going back to Yes, we can look at abuse, we can look at prosecution, we can look at enforcement of laws, which is not happening special self reporting mechanisms, etc. But there needs to be a greater amount of state support direct financial transfer so more women can hold smartphones and participate in the online world which is the world today. That's that's my primary recommendation. I think about it a little differently. Here. And it's it's also because I think that when, when, when there are more women, it won't happen automatically, there will need to be a higher degree of literacy. There will need to be the other things which are done in place as well. But they're if they're just like 20 Women on Twitter for 80 men, this will keep on happening and this is important part of that conversation. Very

Mitali Mukherjee

48:27

important and I you know, want to add this sort of our own research research is well apart it points to the fact that more and more women are engaging less and less with the news online. Of course, this can take us down a rabbit hole on platform companies, but we don't have time for that today. So let me go to our next journalist Patricia from Poland. Patricia. Thank you

Speaker 4

48:53

so much. Paula, will build a bit of work Christina has asked me to refer to the restrictions. We try harassing press freedom. Sometimes the authoritarian measures are su competing for for societies and they support the regulation or restrictions, which are implemented. So how news outlets can build their immunity. If they cannot appeal refer to the social stress or two civil rights protection.

Apar Gupta

49:35

Thank you for asking that question. And I answered that not on the basis of my own experience or insight, but looking at how some digital news media, upstart upstarts in India are managing it. And I think a very important part is the ability to operate in a way which is financially stable, where they have built subscription based models in which people who consume the news directly pay them. I think that opens that level of financial comfort opens up large amount of, of stability, of strength, resilience, ability to engage lawyers. Put your world out, hire staff, okay. Because I think the newsroom also, quite often in authoritarian settings does not do well because you don't have enough people. People are overworked and this is something on top of that. I think people are always overworked in newsrooms, but from what I see but I think this does that move. Right. So that's one important part. The second important part, and this is also indirect. It doesn't directly deal with the challenges building community. And what I mean by community is that by using these digital media platforms which which which which then serve as a bridge between your reader or viewer, and you and it's really difficult, it requires the journalist to become quite often personalities or people who the reader or the viewer also follows. Because then, in a sense, they're like an influencer, who's providing trusted news, you follow them, and then you pay them all that media news organization, what does the community do? It does not only offer you financial support, but it also is a form of support in numbers. You the people who are looking to attack you, to some extent know that there is a group of people who rather than just hating on journalists in authoritarian setting are also because you're challenging authoritarian power and most people in your country support that government at that point in time, which is authoritative. There are also a group of people maybe 1000 2000, who may speak up if their disproportionate action which is done against you. It's it's not a solution, but it's like I can't offer any solutions. They're

Mitali Mukherjee

52:13

not all conversations are only about solutions, right? Sometimes it's just about sharing apart one more question from our fellows before I get a couple of the online questions in Francesca from Chile. Francesca Go ahead.

Speaker 5

52:27

From Chile. You should have said that India is the world's largest democracy. And I was wondering what these restrictions and new regulations say about the current health of the most

Apar Gupta

52:46

so it's a broad question. Thank you for it. My own view is fairly clear. I think we are showing clear signs of authoritarianism and digital technologies play a very important part in increasing and centralizing power without adequate checks and balances. Democracy as I define it is not it's not an election. It's actually the practice of values which include government institutions, following a path of, of, of human growth, potential development. Etc as set out for which they are constituted the Constitution actually creates them to reflect the welfare of people and the different criterias also. So there are a lot of indices actually which measure democracy all of them show that India is been consistently falling over years, and I don't want it to be the methodology. I agree with most of them because I, you know, like, even if you look at economic freedom in that sense, and you look at the conservative rankings, which are by the Hudson Institute, by Cato, etc, India's even restricting economic freedom in that sense. So, quite often, I think that there is a greater centralization of power which is happening in India, and democracy is being reduced in terms of slogan or tagline world's largest democracy. Go Let's come out and vote every five years. And that's not how, you know, civic duty is performed, either from the government or by people. So thank you for asking that.

Mitali Mukherjee

54:29

It's a good segue for a couple of online questions about and I'm sort of paraphrasing and joining some of them up one being that, you know, specific to the sort of internet pressure or online pressure that governments often inflict on the on their citizens. There is an ebb and flow to it, and it tends to rise around election period. So there's one question about what to do around Election Periods and strategies. And the other one is, you know, you talked so much about the communities within India and I know they're sort of they were born as a function of this environment. What about cross border strategies for reporters and journalists? So there's, you know, two questions there.

Apar Gupta

55:13

Okay, so, I'll say what I don't know. And I can't think about or come up with something with so I don't want to say nonsense. So I don't know any. I haven't. Yeah, I don't know about cross border strategies. Maybe I'll think about it. You know, it's also because Mitali I basically quite often I look to the world and I for inspiration and for for getting a perspective about India. I'm not looking quite often these days. Cross Border and just in terms of 2024 and election, it's the year of elections. I think one publication is called the elections given the number of elections is usually held all over the world. I think what's important for us to realize is that Silicon Valley corporations run these platforms have actually, you know, historically, they've never funded election integrity work as much as they have publicized it, because if you look at the Francis Hogan papers, about 94% of the spend for trust and safety around elections, you know, it was done for the United States and everything else was called rest of the world. Okay, which is like what six to 7%. So let's look at the money where is it going historically, but we are added very dangerous period in terms of, you know, a growing amount of digitization in countries such as India, so more people online, yet at the same point in time, these corporations are saying that we are offloading a lot of this function to, let's say, artificial intelligence, and it will flag content even before it goes up. But they are they have considerably you know, shut down these trust and safety teams, they've outsourced them quite often. And if you read the manifesto, by Marc Andreessen, who's a influential venture capital person in Anderson Havas, its partners, he says Trust and Safety is our enemy. He says AI ethics is the enemy. Okay. So it's really important for journalists to also look at how tech platforms are decreasing their budgets and of course, looking at how political parties and governments are taking to social media and and using it for as much as political advocacy which I suppose it needs to be done, but quite often also engaging in forms of disinformation attacks towards minorities, which is also quite prevalent. In political campaigns today. Yep.

Mitali Mukherjee

57:55

And some of which we've actually seen very large tech companies moving away from news as something they support in some geographies, like Canada, some, you know, fairly stringent decisions around whether or not news should even be published on those social media platforms. So that's a that's a storm of its own. Let me end by asking about because you, you know, sort of mentioned some of it. And I know that aside from the work that you're doing at the Internet Freedom Foundation, you're also doing a number of other things, for those who want to be associated more deeply with the work you're doing or work around digital privacy, digital laws, internet freedom, what are some good resources to go to what are some goods of organizations to be aligned with?

Apar Gupta

58:40

Thank you so much for asking Metalia I think at the international level, great organizations exist which are working more and more the intersection of human rights and technology. So I'd especially like to highlight that there is a financial ability for you to participate these to participate in the rights con. It's the animal Conference, which is organized by the nonprofit access now. And that can be a great way to meet people be introduced to organizations globally for which coming from different regions, of course, comes with the financial cost. So that's the issue there, but it's a great start. towards building a network towards understanding these kinds of issues which are emerging. The other organizations are the Electronic Frontier Foundation in the European Union. Also, there are several organizations, either they're split across country, or there is the organization which coordinates some of them which is called a three European Digital Rights Initiative. And then there are ones in Africa, which is such as paradigm, initiative, etc. And in India, there are several organizations as well think organizations that look at the intersection of technology and gender, such as point of view you can also look at networks like the association of progressive communications. I just like to end by also saying one more thing with Ally. I have after six years, I have transitioned from my executive director to just a board seat at IFF. So I play the role of a volunteer there and I'm looking to get back to active practice much more directly after managing or digital rights organization. Just wanted to make it clear in terms of my professional credentials.

Mitali Mukherjee

01:00:27

Absolutely. Thank you for that and you're doing a few other things as well that are keeping you busy. And I always appreciate conversations with your bar. I'm glad you ended up in that sort of flowchart with optimism. Because what are we if not optimistic, as journalists trying to do something different at this point in time, so big, big thank you to you for joining in and for everyone else is well tuned in next week, of course. We have, please but one round of applause for a bar

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