There are enough properties that are waiting to be waking up.
Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and in this episode, I have the distinct pleasure of introducing Alain and Liliana Malin of K architecture and design both deeply rooted in Switzerland and Provence, their philosophy is grounded in the belief that architecture should be a reflection of its surroundings, a harmonious dialog between the natural world and modern living, Helan and Liliana champion the idea that while Innovation is key, it should never overshadow the timeless elements of function, comfort and connection to nature. Their approach to design is both thoughtful and meticulous. Every project begins with an intimate understanding of the client's needs, but it is a lands and liliana's flair for offering innovative solutions, whether through the careful selection of materials or the seamless integration of technology, that truly sets them apart. They artfully blend modern elements within organic textures, creating spaces that feel both contemporary and deeply rooted in their environment, their work is a celebration of heritage, enriched with authentic pieces and the craftsmanship of artisans and artists who help transform spaces into living, breathing works of art. And from their Swiss base, they've contributed to some of the most significant contemporary architecture projects, paying homage to modernism, while their agency in Provence specializes in creating luxurious treats that honor the beauty of their natural surroundings. I was very excited to be speaking with both Alan and Liliana. They are running a very innovative design studio and architecture practice, one where they have pretty much become client free and the majority of projects that they do in their offices are ones which are self led, design focused developments. So in Provence, for example, we had a the great privilege of being able to visit a number of their developments and their projects. They're finding extraordinary heritage buildings and transforming them into either luxurious retreats like the Master shabran, which is where this podcast is done, or they're turning them into small boutique hotels or rentals for the area. But it's a really, you know, amazing kind of portfolio of work, and they are very much executing on the client free practice that so many architects strive for. So sit back, relax and enjoy Alain and Liliana Malan and
now a word from today's sponsor. A while ago, I began to hear reports of a company that was helping some of our clients build remote teams. We looked into it more closely and discovered the company world teams, that was helping small architectural practitioners build remote teams that were both capable and qualified. I was intrigued by another business that addressing one of the critical pain points for small architectural practices, which is the ability to grow and shrink a team effectively, to be able to handle higher workflow without having to staff up significantly, and also being very sensitive about labor costs. World teams is built to address these issues. World teams is a small but mighty company that helps architectural practices build high performing remote teams quickly and efficiently, saving you the headache of sorting resumes and interviewing under qualified candidates. World teams operates in your time zone and prioritizes near native English speakers, ensuring clear and efficient communication with your remote team members. They have flexible contracts so you can adjust your team size as your needs evolve. Additionally, you're connected directly with your skilled professionals, which fosters trust and collaboration and world teams helps you reduce your operating costs without compromising the quality that is so important to a practice. To download a free guide for building a remote team for a small architectural practice, go to Business of architecture.com. Forward slash world teams. That's one word, Business of architecture.com. Forward slash world teams. As a reminder, sponsorship is not an endorsement, and you must do your own due diligence before entering into any business relationship. Go to Business of architecture.com. Forward slash world teams.
It's time to announce this month's 200 304 100 club, if you've missed our episode on the 200 club, listen to Business of Architecture Episode 485 to learn more about this new initiative for benchmarking small firm performance. So big congratulations to our 200 club members, who are Yogesh Mistry, Lina boella, Brad Hubble, Marina Robina, Yost, bende and Denise Burkett Andrea Nemechek, Kelly, Morgan, Julia Larry Apel, George aguirres, Jorge, catran and David and Kristen ware. Our 300 club members are Mark Elster, erini Adams, Daniela, Spana and Euan ranase. King Christopher Brandon, Charles scram and our 400 club members are Drew and Justine Tyndall and Kimberly Doakes. Keep up the amazing work, guys. And then Liliana, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. What a pleasure to have you on the show. And thank you so much for having us here at Master shabrat, so very excited to be speaking with both of you. Obviously, we came here because we were looking at the space for an event. And there's an interesting story, because I actually came across the space and see a little maybe a couple of years ago, okay, and I was looking, I was on doing a lot of zoom meetings, and I was looking at kind of beautiful backgrounds to have in my Zoom meeting. And I actually chose the background and the image of that really. And it was quite it was quite funny, because then, then last year, we were starting to look at venues for and to have our marriage ceremony. And everyone picked up the image and was like, and even more excited to hear that, actually it was, I mean, I could tell that there was an architectural like heavy interior design influence on the space, but delighted to hear that actually it was an architectural design studio that had developed, bought the bought, bought the property and turned it into its own business. Yeah, and that, that was really courageous, which is exactly what we talk about here on the Business of Architecture show. So welcome, really, really great to be speaking with you. And perhaps we could just start by talking about K interiors a little bit and how that business started. How long ago you guys founded it? And then we can kind of move into the your property, exploits, vacation.
K interiors is actually the baby of K architect, right? Kr, but it's in Geneva was founded by my husband Alan mehlen, few years ago, about many years ago,
and a few
about 30 and and now counts. Nowadays counts more than 35 collaborators, and it's one of the biggest architectural studios in engineering suits, a lot and key interiors came as a major continuity of architecture into interior design, because both parts are connected forever, even though a lot of architects have difficulties accepting but oishev, or Ellen has observed it during many years and and it was in very high end project, it's crucial to complete a project and clients desire in so that, yeah, so this is how pntvs For spotted, When, when we met, that I
see so so the architecture firm was was fast, and then in the key. And
10 years ago, we won. Three minutes ago, we create a key interior for the entire design. And since five years we move to the south of France, and my son is in charge of the chair architect in Geneva, and we decided to open and your office in the south of France,
architecture and theorist.
So, so yeah, that the new the new studio is still connected with the studio in in Geneva, or it's completely new entity, or
it is connected. We do have together, also a few few projects in around Geneva, in the Gen for example, we had together a big project in central Bay. It, it happens that that we together, it began, yes, it depends very much on the project. What we both do here is now by abandoned, old or ugly propoint series and try to give them reliance. And, yes and have them either prepared for clients or really to be worked on as rental comms with high end services.
Got it so the portfolio of what. That you had in the architecture and interior design studio done a lot of very high end luxury housing, and you can obviously see that here reform the attention to detail, to absolutely everything. Thank you. It's absolutely, really, really beautiful. So how and why did you decide to kind of move into doing your own properties? I mean, this is something that lots of architects and designers want to do, but it's it's difficult. It's not easy.
We wanted to do a weekend and the holiday project just by ourselves, because architecture is our passion. So we cannot say work stops after 5pm and bed life begins. It's part of our life. Architecture is what we loved, and we had summer house already here. We were spending weekends and holidays here. And then we, one day, we decided to look for North house and have our own project, because we're all the time working on on different port, yeah, different class, different projects in the same office, but not, not together. And then we found Bach. Probably knew visited,
that's the smaller one.
And meanwhile, I hear our neighbors were trying to sell for long years, but the price was really so high, impossible to approach. So we were trying to negotiate a small bid. There is all this part was not explored at all. We're saying, Yeah, we just need one more room, a small office, you know, then we can carry on and take care of your home and but couldn't match on this level. We tried to make an offer, rejected, okay? And then we went for the other projection. And then two weeks after, the neighbors came and said, Well, we actually made our made our minds, and we're ready to accept your proposal
amazing on
the same day. So back to the life change. So that
was so it was. It suddenly turned into a much bigger project than you'd anticipated. So we're going to do the other little one, and now this one as well. Yes, how much bigger is this one than the I haven't seen the other one yet. The
other one is around 350 square meters, and this one is about 1200 Wow. Okay, so we
at the same age, covid are ahead. And
then covid arrived. So we were locked in here, locked in too much. It was a very bad period. This was 26
it was a great time.
So we managed to have all our teams working. It was allowed for architects to carry on and everything connected to construction, building. And it was amazing. It was it was difficult to get, to get supplies, to have deliveries. But in the meantime, we were, we were very happy to this up.
So did you take, were you doing about design projects at the same time as this, with with other clients? Or did you put everything on hold and then just focus on this one project? Or how did you, how did you balance the time of the retreat.
At the beginning we were working in Geneva, and here because some project in Geneva, and here we met many people, and we do some project for different planning companies. And yeah,
in the beginning we were traveling. We had a very large project in central Bay, touring back here, and then back to Geneva, three days here, four days in Geneva, and then the other way around. It was pretty intense when the and then when covid developed work. Wow. How are we doing all this?
You just got to relax as they during covid, and kind of froze,
really. But this, yeah, this killer.
So when you kind of purchased this property and and the other one did you have, Was it intentional that it was going to be a business or. Or like a boutique type of event space. Or did you see it as being a home? Or what was the business vision for it?
Was it?
Well, at first there was not really a business vision rental, so creating a collection of homes. It was, as we said, it was pleasure to pleasure to renovate, build and and then probably resell. And when we arrived at the situation of having other Chevron and busted the fresh on, then we thought, Okay, this one, it's too big for us. We're going to move here. What are we going to how are we going to explore it? And then we thought, okay, maybe the best way is to imagine it as issue to us our home, and then create a space where people will be able to share very moments and with the experience of hiring projects in in Switzerland, we thought that we've learned how people this level would love To to be welcomed, or what they're expecting in their everyday life and and we applied it here in the renovation. And this is how it began. The beginning, we didn't knew if how people will look at it, if it knew, be well accepted, how the team will be created. It was quite something new for us.
What kind of state was that house in when you, when you bought it with
mirror or under the city? Yeah, being born. So this bishop, wow,
yes, it was, it belonged to a family from Paris, where the mother in the father were very active. They were welcoming a lot of guests and organizing concerts. And true, it was well used, yes, but in the meantime, they wanted to have a small shirt to avant. So it was very much a traditional, traditional style, with their fabrics and hidden. The ceilings were hidden, the heights were lowered. It was also a mixture of many, many styles with we can still see it in in the house. And then the their two sons never managed to touch anything. They were so impressed by their parents that they were saying is, yeah, but if our mother came back, what he just said, but a thing so the station, because in the era of the parents, which is already outdated, and yes, there were mirrors all over or pink marble on that yellow tiles. And then every room was different, kind of headache.
And so when you were doing the renovations, did you do you live in one of the two properties whilst it was happening, or did you rent and stay nearby or go see more, just
living next door
is right. And was this always that next door space there? That's now your studio. That was a garret. Oh, right,
flannel, yeah.
There was a ramp. It was all dark. One part was some kind of storage. Actually, the last room, mental room number eight, the balcony didn't exist. All this part was set covered to the aluminum first aid from the 70 the it has, it was really, really bad.
So a lot of work kind of,
oh yeah, the office is a complete transformation. Yes.
So with these projects, when you're doing them yourself, obviously, you know, the biggest danger is money. That's the it's the thing that stops so many architects and designers actually doing their own projects, is because, you know, then it can quickly become prohibitively expensive. How were you guys kind of working with the budget? Or were you just, like, you know what we're going to do, everything that we want to do, or you knew how to kind of keep costs down, but keep the quality, you know, like, as high as it is, how did you kind of manage that?
Either way, we didn't. In Switzerland, I do a lot of promotion, and we sold some houses in general. Finish, I know the one ewe by the property into to unit and leadership with some men for
the
awesome credit, yes,
we negotiated a lot with the with the suppliers, furniture or materials, just trying us to make get out the maximum. Yeah, and we were present all the time, so keeping you guys the rhythm of the construction site was was kept steady. We had also our teams. We hired our workers for for the masonry painting, and so it was, yeah, that allowed us to keep the budget, did you
set this, the ownership up of this property in a separate business, and then that business and kind of hired the architecture, and yeah, so you kind of had, like a contract between the two businesses and then paid it. So you've done property before, before these two projects, you kind of built and developed your own properties before Ellen did Alan. Alan has and what sorts of things were you doing prior?
At the beginning, we buried some land and doing some some houses. But now it's early. You don't show because in Geneva, all the concepts are where I'm here. Now it's absolutely different than we work on my test on right different Danielson, but all the time we were working on the show here. That's the that's very work or not for the for some private clinic, yeah, in chican. And we were to try it in that hotel,
right? It's
very nice restaurant and usually comfortable when you go to the student. Yeah, and one more time it was on the high level, on solution.
So, so the the architecture business in in Geneva was, was kind of just doing very well and and allowed you to be able to kind of go into doing your own private developments, and then you sold load of those which kind of help the funding during this one exactly I see, I mean, it's so long, long term
plan. And on the same times, we didn't know what to do during a few few days, and we decided to to design a roading boat with coffee, and we build it in Turkey. And same we do a lot of chocolate. Here we adapt the profile of the chocolate from the boats from the wizardian house. Same service and quality of service.
Oh, wow. Okay, oh, lazy. Very interesting. So when you kind of completed this project, I mean, one of the things that's, you know, so photographic, you know, there's, like every other corner you can take a picture of. How did you go about promoting and marketing it and having it published?
That's fair. I
first went looking for a nice graphic design agency because I thought our presentation should should be to the same level. And then when we started working with with this company from from Paris, cake design. The guys told me, okay, so who would be your PR manager? And I was like, What are you talking about?
Maybe much.
How shocked, how come. And then they advised us that to if we want to really out on the market, and position is, is a high level product, who would need a good agency, right? So yeah, we found one that is still following us actually, or leading us. And yeah, the mixture of a very good photographer, a good graphic design and a good PR. I helps you to bring your good product, yes, to the right market, yeah.
So because, because that, one of the other things is that the the imagery of the of the building, you know, it's kind of everywhere. It's, you know, it's, it's the kind of story I told at the beginning. What illustrates that it's, it's very easy to find it's one of these kind of Pinterest, you know, people's people's dream houses that's been in WF, and, yeah, the photography of everything, and the, yeah, how many magazines being featured in is very impressive. It
we received really an oppressed impressive color in France was, for us, it was a huge, huge surprise. We didn't, weren't expecting to be in AD or or even, and now we're focusing on UK and west market. Oh, fantastic.
That's it. And have, have you found then that, since you've done and completed this, that it's its own business now, so you're kind of, you know, it's an event space, and you hire it out for that. Has it also driven new work to the practice interior Islamic?
Yes, it was. People started calling to have projects done by us, because they've seen Master chapon. Then she people asked to buy well already, already not. Yeah, we had also a moment for now, we're done with it. And was it you realize?
Did you? Did you think about it? Or no, I
didn't work. And there was, we had a client that our heritage plan that was willing to buy it for his as a gift for his 60/60, birthday. And we went through few months so very stressful, because it was difficult to say, no, it's impossible. And thanks God, his wife decided that he didn't consult her. He so it was at her choice. And
was it, was it difficult situation because you you didn't want to sell it, or you did want to sell it, or you didn't want to say no to a client? He really worked.
Yeah, actually no to those.
Actually, at that time, there are many things. Those
are the Laos, the attachment to the house. Sure,
we are very generally attached about the property. But we are architect all job is our job is to to create some new your house, more property, yes. And they were very troubleshoot, yeah. We were very and the boys is a nice guy, and it was like, you say that, difficult to say, to say no. And the boys were shown
there was desperate, impossible to refuse. But then finally, it's it's our face, our main main point, or main main attraction. So we should win. We understood it. We have to keep it. Maybe we can sell other houses around the smaller ones, we can always add, and they'll be more difficult to only promote To. They're less less significant. Let's say this one we really unique in uni, remarkable. And as you said, now, now it has arrived to a state where it's recognizable. It has some background already, press, average, important to know it,
yeah, it's, it's got, it's kind of iconic in the region, and it's also very interesting, because so many times when architects design like an exemplary building like this, and you're doing it for somebody else, then the client doesn't allow you to take photographs or or they don't like to publish it, and you've got To keep it, and that's really like for so many architects, very, very difficult. And then, of course, here you can
enjoy the contract. You said that we had the right doing to take some pictures I blend on the conception. And yes, and even though, because it's short and
easy, you've experienced that before, then clients have said that. And. Yeah, and so and so. Now you always put a you put a clause in the now we
have it as it was in the contract, but even though it exists as it was in the contract, it remains a very sensible moment in when we arrive to the end of the project, and when clients get possession, it's like giving a baby so once they become parents,
no, no. Yeah, and I can, I've spoken to many architects where that's been a real difficult point with their you know, particularly in the Ultra, you know, working with ultra high net worth individuals in the luxury market that being able to take photographs at their house, very difficult. I was speaking to one of our own clients, actually an architect, and one of the things that he does with his clients is he takes a small percentage of every invoice that comes in and puts it into an escrow account, and he's got a clause, and it's called the the completion bonus. And so when the project is finished, this bank account has accrued a significant amount of money. And at the end, he'll ask the client, can I take photographs of the projects? And if the client says, No, you're going to allow then he'll say, Well, I've got this, this money that I collected that was going to go back to go back to you, and if you don't let me take photographs, then you won't get this money back. And they're like,
that's a good it's,
yeah, it's kind of an interesting way of, kind of dealing with that. But it's very, it's very difficult to, you know,
it is even for in the office, even for colleagues and for for new members coming in, if you, if you want to show someone
details like to see working also, that does not like
to let to other People. There also, yeah, when
they arrived in me and let's see what that so that's that.
So that must be really great then, because you can always invite clients here and let them stay, and it's and we kind of just, you know, get the whole experience of it exactly,
feel the atmosphere, understand what they like, what they don't like, make them understand our philosophy and vision of a project in South of France. It's very helpful. So after
this, this one, have you got your eyes set on some other, other properties that you're looking to do the same with, or was this enough?
Actually,
we're talking for projects running right now, two of them completed for this summer and tomorrow we're aiming to finish for the end of the year, Christmas. One of them is, will be the small sister of my deception. Again, seven bedrooms and massive plane tree, 300 year old plane tree in front of the of the house. Then the second one is smaller, one six bedrooms, but in the heart of the village, very different. We tried to break the codes and and went completely traditional, but still with the with the contrary. For contemporary living and applying a lot of reclaimed materials, concentrating on local craftsmanship. Maybe 80% of the of the furniture and the materials we have in French for that, wow, just more in the line of regenerative building and tourism and then, and then we have to, then We have another one. That is the third one is in the rocks of both prolongs. So, yeah, the the rock is actually in the living room. We won't have walls, but we have a huge rock and and the swimming pool is also attached to the rocks. And then the fourth one is lost in nature, completely remote, where you don't have, you don't see anyone, you don't have each of one neighbor, in case. But we always try to find a. Something unique. Yeah, it can be a small village house, but still, when the atmosphere inside have to procure some some pleasure and some well being, of course, you're looking for, if possible, the dream of the architect an old building and has done bringing back to life. We decided to not build new here because there are enough properties that are waiting to be waking up.
So with these, these new projects, are they all being kind of privately, you know, financed by yourself, and then you're using institute like you're borrowing and linking mortgages, or are you working with other developers, or other clients, even
to for the
investment for
our project, the finance the project, one set. So we just say one trend we spot now, until one house, but we don't need a the other. Yeah,
so that's great as a as, like a such a freedom for for you guys to be able to answer, yeah, because this is the other thing, because if, if you go down the development route and you're bringing other people in, then it's going to be harder to create all the details and do it exactly the way you want to go through it, human
sometimes between the emotional background, I often think, no, I have the most difficult
keeping each other in sharing sort of work. Yeah, hold on a second. So, so with the new projects, do you have, like a business in mind for them, or you're going to just, you just kind of develop them with the design intent as the main focus, and then figure out what they're going to be or how you're going to hold on to them.
Well, we always, we figured out that we need to help concentrate everything into a collection. This is how we came to the main de Charon, right? So now we are positioning everything as a private collection and and then we always say, if someone falls in love it, I
love it. I love it. Wow.
There it is. The project must be
completed today to the smallest detail, and that's we start exploring it through the rentals and the events and right? And then one day, who knows? Yeah, it already happened two times.
So I guess the question would be, why? Why do work for anybody else?
Oh, now we are building a new boat for Brazilian client. That's That's an amazing experience, and the clients are also incredible. And it's, it's nice to exchange and to have this, this challenge,
very different team. Yeah, it's a second boat, 48 jars, and with electric propulsion. Oh, wow, that's a good clever
and otherwise, we still continue doing projects for plants, but we don't follow anymore the execution, right, okay, just architecture supervision on site, but the most of our time for construction, for what is dedicated to our project, and
how do you source the properties? Because, again, that's the other difficult thing is, actually, I'm sure in this area as well, there's
so
much competition for stuff like this, and it's
very difficult to find something, uh, interesting the rules are getting hardest form there, because it's a very particular area, right, and actually very difficult to build house, regulation, right? Maximum strawberry, 50 square meters when some area it's one or not usually, right. And with the one uncertainty is parameters you cannot do any architecture,
right? So very small idea to give some something, yeah, so that that as well, I guess is, is quite a good niche for you guys. 10 because, you know, and this is, this is part of the good thing about architects being developers, is that you can take very difficult buildings or very difficult sites and work magic with them and kind of being able to release them, whereas I'd imagine a lot of other developers, it would just be prohibitively expensive to take these properties and try and do something with it. It
happened, yeah, a few times already that was the case. We transformed some properties that owners were completely desperate, and they were saying, off, it's it's impossible, and we love the challenge of it's impossible, but it's getting more and more difficult from from one side, it's good that people try to calm down and To make things in a more sensible way, but it's a weird thing. It's really getting awkward. Why did you ask people to build only 150 square meters, or 200 square meters, in area where you know that you come together with family and friends, so it will never be enough to welcome,
yeah,
everyone, every member of your Pebble. And then people who are, who are in need of this kind of surfaces, they don't have the financial possibility to buy in this particular errands. So it's rules are always very general and they don't really apply. They
could be kind of interpreted and understood slightly different tangent of questions. Obviously, you guys are your managers, yep, and and working together. So, and this is I find really interesting actually, because I was, I did a little survey of some of our own clients and our listeners on the podcast. And it's about, we was, we were seeing between 13 to 20% of architecture design practices are husband and wife team in a certain bracket of small practices. Okay, so we're talking between, you know, five to 35 people gent practices there's often led by husband and wife team. So how, what are some of the challenges of running a business together, and what are some of the benefits? How do you? How do you, how do you not go crazy? How do you keep it? You say, folks,
I think both we like what you do and we don't think about weekend or they have. It's our life to build, to think, to travel and to see some some land somewhere, some construction, some materials, some more. And everything informs the project, and then we are still open to to share period together. And sure, sometimes we are not everybody,
but it's it's probably more difficult for the others around us. Interesting, yeah, because we're all the time as artists, we're all the time exchanging and sometimes thinking out of the blue on the same point, on on a project, or video of a project, and people around us are not really in the same in the same mood or passion. So for us, working every day so it has never been overwhelming or a burden, and we
can work everywhere, is it? Yes, actually, with in one art we can do a project and we are and the other part of the world and send the drawing to the axis, and
we do have more or less the same dynamic of of living in in and working so it's it's really a problem. Problem is the color of the shutters. It lasts about 15 minutes then,
but now. No brilliant.
I have perfect place for us to conclude the conversation. Thank you so much for speaking with me. Really, really inspiring what you guys are doing and just absolutely beat English is real pivot,
and that's a wrap.
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