The resilient pedagogy podcast with your host Travis Thurston. On this episode, we discuss unlocking student engagement with Dr. Lindsay Masland from resilient pedagogy. This is the space where we discuss practical teaching strategies to overcome distance disruption and distraction. We also explore how approaching course design, classroom communities and pedagogies of care can humanize our learning environments. Today, we welcome Lindsay Masland. Lindsay is the Assistant Director of faculty professional development for Appalachian State University, where she also serves as an associate professor of psychology. In her ideal world, her days are filled with thinking and talking about transformative education, and pedagogical disobedience in higher ed. And based on her various roles, she's not too far from that ideal. Welcome to the show, Lindsay.
Thanks. It's great to be here, Travis.
I'm really looking forward to discussing some of the ideas from your chapter. Before we get started, I'm going to ask you the question that we ask all of our guests, as an emerging term resilient pedagogy has been defined in a number of different ways. And it continues to be applied in different contexts. But what does resilient pedagogy mean to you?
Well, the funny thing about that is it didn't mean anything to me at first, when it first was being used, which is probably the case for a lot of us to be honest. But then once I started to see it being shaped out and defined, I realized, Oh, I do that. So I guess for me, what resilient pedagogy is about is it's a student centered approach to teaching. That is really focusing on designing in ways that can be resilient, or flexible, or responsive to all of the different experiences, lived experiences, identities, current experiences that our students bring to the classroom. And so as long as you can design in ways, so that no matter who shows up, that person can be successful. To me, that's resilient pedagogy.
I love that. I really love that. That that perspective is student centeredness, and, and being responsive. Yeah. I love those ideas, Lindsay. Thanks. Alright, so I want to highlight a few things from from your chapters, I have a few questions prepared for you. As many of us know, when when things changed in spring 2020, there was, you know, there was a disruption in the way that we were teaching. And a lot of us became entangled in efforts to quickly train or transition and things like that. So as part of this, you talk about in your chapter, self determination theory, and I want to know, specifically, how does self determination theory inform student motivation in our courses?
Sure. Well, I think, you know, I should say that I had an unfair advantage going into the pandemic, because my background does involve studying student motivation. And I've always been looking into liberated and pedagogy and inclusive teaching approaches, universal design, for learning and stuff like that. So I had a leg up. And my dissertation and master's thesis were about motivation. And so I was already always bringing that kind of motivation focus lens, to my teaching, and to my faculty development anyways. And self determination theory is a particular favorite. Well, for one, because it has a lot of empirical research backing it up, but also, to me, it just feels like the way learning feels to me. So it also has that kind of face validity piece to it. So self determination theory is actually a huge meta theory of motivation. It includes lots of stuff people have probably heard about before, you know, like intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And it gets into attribution theory and stuff like that. But the piece that I think is the most helpful for us, is the needs theory. And the idea is that students, it all people, but we're talking about students today, right, that students have a desire towards growth, that it's kind of like an innate thing, to move ourselves towards growth towards well being to be in a in a good balance place, that that's just an innate thing, and that the way we can get to that place is to have certain needs met. And self determination theory, there's three main needs. So first one is competence. So folks are more likely to be motivated and engaged in work Work hard, when they feel like they're actually on the path to mastering something, or that mastery is in their sight. So that's competence. Then we have autonomy. Students work harder when they feel like the choices that they're making matter in their learning, or that they are given opportunities or choices to make that align with their values and their goals. And then the last one is relatedness. And that is exactly what it sounds like. It's whether or not you feel connected, you feel supported by other people in the learning environment, which can be both the other students in the environment, but also the instructor as well. So the idea if you are teaching from an SDT lens, is that you as the teacher, the instructor are trying to maximize students feelings of autonomy, competence and relatedness.
I love that. You're, you're you're speaking to my soul here, Lindsay, my dissertation focused on using self determination theory for faculty development. Oh, and, I absolutely agree, like, especially thinking about, you know, any learner, any human has those three, those three basic needs, right, autonomy, competence, and relatedness. And so I love thinking about that in terms of how it relates to our own development, but also how that looks like, you know what that looks like, in our classrooms. So, in your chapter, you also talk about how self determination theory relates to coursework. Organization, instructional strategies, the assessment of learning, and and how you can align a lot of the things that you're doing. With this overarching theory, this meta theory, specifically, I want to just follow up on on the autonomy piece. So how do you how do you design for autonomy or autonomy-support in your class?
Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I, I should also probably say, before I give specific example about that is another great thing about self determination theory is it's really empowering to the teachers, because I think a lot of times when we think about student's motivation, particularly if their motivation appears to be low, it's kind of like, oh, what am I gonna do? You know, but a theory like this gives us a little bit of power to say, No, wait, there are choices I can make in my teaching, that are going to be a really great lever for increasing student motivation. And so autonomy is a great example of that. Now, sometimes when people hear the word autonomy and teaching, they're like, okay, so I have to let my students choose everything in my course. And that's actually not the type of autonomy that we're really talking about. When we talk about this theory, we're talking about letting students feel like the choices they're making in the class matter, which could be you know, within boundaries. So it doesn't mean the world's the students oyster in terms of, you know, the content and the way they're going to be assessed and the way they're going to be instructed, or, or what have you. You, too, don't don't do it that way. But what so for example, things that you can do, is getting to know your students, before you launch into the meat of the course, on the surface doesn't sound like an autonomy thing. But if you do things like using, you know, pre course surveys to get information about them, and I don't just mean demographic information that may be helpful. But I'm talking about asking interesting questions like, what do you want to be when you grow up, or I like to do ones like what's the job you tell your family you're going to get, and then what's the job you wish you are going to get. And sometimes those are the same, but when they're not, then you get a little window into folks. And that can serve as a lever, because now you know something about them. And so you can design your course in ways that intentionally respect the wide variety of student experiences and identities, so that students do feel a sense of autonomy, because they see themselves in your course. And they see options for themselves in your course, that are meaningful. So another concrete way might be how you present content to them. I think a traditional approach to presenting content is like, okay, here are the chapters we're all reading this week, or here's the like documentary we're all going to watch or the article we're all going to read. And sometimes you're teaching something where you really do need all of the students to be cognitively engaged around a paragraph. Sure. But I feel like that's a lot less of academia than we think we really just need people to have, you know, exposure and facility with the ideas. And aren't there lots of ways that students could get the ideas before we then do stuff with the ideas. So that's why I really like using things like resource menus, where I give them a bunch of ways to get the content they need for that week or that unit, and then let them choose and just kind of missed that. out and no longer control or attempt to have any power over, you got to read this and this page and this, you do whatever you want to do with this pile of resources I gave you until you feel like you have something to say about it, or something you can do with it. So I think that's another concrete way of incorporating autonomy, that doesn't also mean, you know, giving away everything to the students.
I love the way you frame that. There's definitely a balance. I like the frame or the the term you use boundaries, right. So menus, like resource menus is such a great example for that, because you're giving those students choices based off of the things that you see that they might be engaging in. But I also really like how, how you brought in, that we want to know who the students are that we have in our class. And and that we can adapt based on who the learners are in our classroom. That's, I think we sometimes forget that. And it's, it's hard. It's hard. It takes time, it takes effort. But teaching the students that we have is such such an important, such an important aspect of this.
Absolutely. I mean, well, before. You know, we were talking about resilient pedagogy well before pandemics and things. I always lived by the the statement "teach the students you have not the ones you wish you had". Right. And I think that's so critical, because you have to think about who becomes you know, professors and teachers, a lot of us are people who are really good at playing the game, as it currently is, right? Yeah, being academics, as academia currently expects us to be. And so it's really easy for us to just replicate what we were so darn good at as students and hope that that will be an amazing experience for our students. But that's just not who's in the room. So there's a couple of those cool, they'll be great. Those students, they probably would be excellent without you. Right, but what about the students where your support and mentorship and understanding of their background experiences? What about those students who might not be okay with that, you know, right, or might be able to get to a new level with whatever support you have. And so, I think that, you know, resilient pedagogy is a way to bring that lens to the work that you do as a teacher.
I love that. That's That's such a good segue into into my next question for you. So talking about centering our course design choices, around interactions with students, knowing our students, but also planning and balancing both low stakes and high stakes assessments can really be an important aspect to this. So what advice would you give about assessment and providing feedback to our students?
I mean, I think the first thing I would say is let go of any assumptions you have about what assessments have to look like in your class. Just kind of ask yourself, what would it be like if, if there were no shoulds? I should do this. Because I think so many of our choices around assessment, again, are us just kind of replicating things that we feel like our colleagues expect of us, the field requires of us without, you know, giving the kinds of assessments that we think would actually help our students. And so once you kind of let go of that, then well, then it becomes like a, you know, playground, you can kind of start experimenting and figuring out what works and what seems to work for me and what is supported by you know, the research is this mix of high and low stakes assessments. And I have tried to even take it to the next level where even the assessments themselves are scaffolding into one another. So that the lowest stakes assessments, right, that are relatively easy for the students to complete that are low points, if you are a grading instructor, right? That those prepare directly for success on the next, you know, the medium stakes kind of assessment. And maybe ideally, at that medium stakes level of assessment. There's also a lot of peer and cooperative work, so that students are doing something harder than they did at that lower level assessment. But they're doing it in a supportive environment. They're doing it where they can, you know, learn from more knowledgeable others, those kinds of pieces. And then whatever feedback you give them on that, you know, medium stakes assessment, ideally prepares them to just rock it on the quote unquote high stakes assessment. So for me, the thought is that everybody in my classes once they get to that small number of high stakes assessments should mostly be doing awesome at that level, and if they're not then that is feedback to me not about the students, but about the fact that I didn't set up a structure so that the assignments prepared them to master the material when it you know, when it's the hardest. Also, that's just more fun to teach in grade. As an instructor, it's much more fun to be wowed by your students than to be quote unquote, disappointed by your students. And so a really good way to remove the disappointment is to make sure that the way you're teaching gets everybody to an A at the end, I know there are big feelings about whether or not everybody should you know, in the course with an A, but with my personal teaching philosophy, I think an A should be in reach for everybody. And it is if the instructor designs the class that way.
Yeah, I love that. The idea that we also need to be kind of reflective in our own practice and approach. And, and I love how you said, you know, if there is a student that's struggling, maybe I need to look at what I've I'm doing, and where that maybe there was a gap in the way that I was helping them along the way. That's, I love that. That's so great.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's also just a more hopeful way to do it. I know that sometimes people think well, wait, it's all my fault. As a teacher, if a student doesn't learn, that sounds stressful. Sure. But the other side of that coin is that it's empowering, because instead of just being kind of gutted and bummed that students didn't get it again, all of that becomes data, it becomes data for you as the instructor to reflect on and be like, okay, so clearly, the students needed more than they received up to that point, because the data showed they weren't ready to master it. So then what kind of additional activities or resources or additional lower stakes assignments Do I need to add, before we get to that place to kind of avoid that icky outcome? So it's actually feels it's pretty empowering to me to teach in this way.
So I wanted to share a quote a passage from your chapter. It says, Are you You're right. It's important to remember though, that disruption has always existed in the learning environment. And then you continue to count a pandemic as just one of the many disruption disruptions that have always conspired to threaten the most vulnerable of our students. And to use the inevitability of these instructions as the impetus for building an empowering and liberating learning environment for all. I know you don't dive into this into the chapter, but I want to I just want to ask you kind of the the why, why from your experience, is building empowering and liberating learning environments so important?
Well, I mean, I think it gets back to my core values as a teacher, which I have found that aligning all of my pedagogical choices to my core values, is the way to make the whole thing feel good is the way to make the whole thing feel like you're doing what you want to be doing. And so that core value for me does relate to kind of feelings of liberation. I mean, there's a very specific way that I feel when I'm even getting kind of emotional about it. That's how you can tell how how, like, core, this is to me, right? There's a very specific way I feel when I learn something, right? Something where like, the whole world shifts, and you want to like grab your desk and be like, wait, what, right, those moments that are just so I mean, if we want to be like technical, it's like threshold concept, achievement step. But you know, the way it feels where you're like, what, alright, those moments are the most cherished moments I have in my life. So I want to make sure that everybody who comes in contact with me, who's a student, and who's not a student, honestly, has the opportunity to have that amazing feeling. So that's the thing I'm trying to create in as many people as I, you know, interface with, then I have to think about the fact well, everybody's bringing something different to that moment. They're bringing different identities and experiences, and different things they're currently contending with, and different things they've historically contended with. Right? And so I can't create just a uniform transformative experience, like that is not a thing. And so I have to figure out ways that I can bring into into the whole exchange who the folks are. And so when you bring that to it, it's like, okay, there's there's not going to be only one way to have transformative experiences. So then we have to really open up all of the options and the choices and the avenues that we're giving to learners in order to have this amazing, amazing experience. So I'd say that is kind of the thing that anchors at all for me is I just want everybody to feel as awesome as I do when I feel awesome. That that's what it is.
That's powerful. I really like that. Thank you so much for sharing that. So the last thing Last question that I have for you is kind of shifting focus looking forward. There were there were many things that a lot of us did kind of in reaction to the disruptions in 2020. And there were, there's quite a few things that we changed in our own practice, and that we've helped others to adopt as well. And, and as I've been hearing about talk of going back, you know, to the way things were pre pandemic, you know, I don't want to just go back. So So my question for you is, you know, reflecting on this last year, but also looking forward, what are some things that you change in your own practice, or that you've seen others change that you would like to see continue moving forward?
Yeah, I think this is such an important question that all of us who teach need to be wrestling with right now and, and moving forward. And even in my own university, we're having a learning community or a faculty learning community around this question, because I know that for some people, the pandemic was an experience of loss, sometimes literal loss, but also kind of figurative loss of, of the job they used to have and the way they like to teach and all that. But also, I feel like it was a returning for some people, because certain things were removed from them that like, it just wasn't an option anymore. In terms of certain approaches to teaching or even certain meetings you had to go to, like you no longer had to go to. And so for some people, myself included, it was actually a time of kind of clarification of drawing really kind of bright lines around, like, why I do what I do, and why I don't do that thing over there, it helped me to get a lot of personal clarity. So when we talk about going back, I feel like I already did the going back, it was going back to my core values that happened during a time that kind of forced that. So I don't want to go away from that going back at all, I want to keep leading with those values, and keep making my teaching choices, centering those values around, you know, inclusion and liberation and student centeredness. And so that's what I'm hoping I don't go back to. And then other things, too, that are, you know, kind of more specific, is, my plan is to, to never, or to always teach hybrid forever. And that's because honestly, I was already doing that before the pandemic, and I didn't realize it. But there are very specific things that simply work better. In online modalities, I will say you can quote me, but in my own in my own teaching, there are certain discussions we had, for example, of around identity and privilege and oppression that are stronger, because they happened in discussion forums. It just is what it is, right? And that we used to do those face to face. So those are pieces that I want to take with me and not go back to the thought that face to face teaching is superior. I don't want to go back to that. And this is funny because me, my background is actually involves a lot of performance stage theater, stuff like that. So I can do I can put on a show for my students. And it's fun to do that. But that is not the same thing as fulfilling my deepest values of an inclusion and liberation. And there are some amazing tools that we just got a lot better at, during the pandemic, that get us closer to those values than the way we used to approach things.
That's so great. Going back to core values. Lindsay, thank you so much for taking the time. I have really enjoyed our conversation today.
Absolutely. And looking forward to listening to the conversations of the other authors and and checking out the chapters. I think it's going to be a great contribution to the field and to all of us who are interested in the student centered, inclusive, resilient approach to teaching.
Perfect, thank you. And thanks for listening. Goodbye, everybody.