S2 Ep 24 Overcoming Cultural Conflict: Learning to do things differently to encourage being seen, heard, and respected on both sides of conflict.

12:14AM Dec 22, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Jerry Fu

Keywords:

people

conflict

happen

point

pharmacy

jerry

talk

houston

asian

coaching

decision

thinking

conflict resolution

job

realise

deal

leadership

moved

pharmacist

bad

Hello, and welcome to A Dash of SaLT. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. SaLT is an acronym for society in learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.

Welcome to A Dash of SaLT. Today I'm joined by Jerry Fu. Jerry is a conflict resolution coach who helps Asian American leaders advance in their career and life journeys. Having taken on several pharmacy leadership roles, Jerry started coaching in 2017, to help other Asian American professionals deal with the conflict that they encounter at work with their culture and within themselves. Prior to starting his coaching business, Jerry served as a pharmacist and began facilitating leadership workshops in 2012. He has appeared on over 50 podcasts and plans to appear in plenty more. So to learn more about Jerry, you can visit AdaptingLeaders.com and we're going to talk a little bit more about that together here in our conversation. So Jerry, I'm really delighted to have you on the podcast today to talk to you about your experiences as part of a marginalised group living in the US and how you've used your experiences for conflict resolution in your professional work.

Hi Shelli, thanks for having me. Yeah.

So can we start with a little background about your life? Your experiences growing up as an Asian American? And what are some cultural conflicts that you've experienced in your personal life?

Yeah. You know, you get kids telling me I remember in elementary school, and I got an A tiff with a girl on the playground during recess, and she tells me, you know, go to get to Japan, where you belong. It's like, Well, alright, I'm not from Japan. I am an A, I'm an American citizen. So I don't know. I would go back to Japan where I belong. But okay, right. And I'm just this tiny, scared, scared kid. And so it's just like, all right, big loud noises. Let me just avoid them, even though I'm upset by what I'm hearing. Right. One incident I remember in high school. At one point, I was playing hacky sack with some some friends at the school, which apparently some teachers don't like. So these two older white women come up to me, like, as if they were going to confiscate my hacky sack. And as I'm trying to make my case that you know, what we do after school shouldn't matter. They look at my shirt, and I happen to be wearing a t shirt with some artwork of two sumo wrestlers that are sparring in a rink. And you know, there's not a lot of garb with sumo wrestlers. And these tend to be, you know, fairly bigger men. And one of them looks at the other. And she says, Can you believe you were short like this at school? And I said, it's an ancient Japanese tradition. What's what's wrong with it? I don't see the. I don't see the problem and what the other one goes, we'll turn your Japanese tradition inside out. And they both laugh and they walk away as somehow.

These were teachers in your school? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, things like that. Another incident, more recent one that was kind of a funny one was, I was working for a different pharmacy in Houston. At one point, I was assigned to babysit newer pharmacists, they acquired from a previous owner, but the previous owner, like the location was in a not so nice part of Houston. And the owner had been moving certain prescriptions that are questionable nature in order to keep his his lights on, like, basically, you know, there's some crooked doctors that are wanting to write scripts for money and not for legitimate medical needs. And so he was basically using this money to, you know, keep the pharmacy open until it's able to find the buyer. And so anyways, after we bought the pharmacy, you know, they say, Hey, Jerry got to go out there and cover this. And so, at one point, a black man comes in asking for one of the drugs that he's this guy was, was supposedly known to stock and I said, Well, you know, sorry, we don't we don't have that. And he goes, Okay, man, and right as he walks out, he turns around the walking right against the door. He just goes Oh, wow. Yeah, I like, I just, I couldn't help but laugh because I thought to myself, Oh, okay, that was Really crass, but I don't want to get stabbed or shot. So I'm just gonna let them have that one. Honestly, you know, they're, I think every Asian living here at some point has some sort of experience like this.

Yeah, right. Yeah. And it's good that you can. I mean, I don't want to say that it's good that you can have a positive attitude about it, because it's just something that that should never be an issue and it shouldn't happen. But I'm sure that sometimes, you know, sort of laughing at something like that, in such a tense moment, when, like you said, it, you know, is really an uncomfortable situation. And, you know, I'm just curious, are your parents? Um, were they both born and raised here in the US as well? Like, how far back is your you know, are you generationally an American?

Well, I mean, no, that's a great question. I mean, my parents came over here for grad school, they were born in Taiwan, and they decided they wanted to take a chance on a on a better life here than what they had in Taiwan. And so, yeah, basically, growing up the kid of immigrants, you just feel out of place everywhere, right? Here, your Mandarin isn't good enough for the relatives, when you go back home, you know, kids are picking on you for being different. Your parents are trying to hold you to a higher standard that you don't appreciate at the time. And the only way that they know how to kind of go do toward that standard is to, you know, basically tell you, you're stupid until you work hard enough. So they don't have to call you stupid anymore. Right? And so, yeah, basically, it isn't until you get the first taste of success, whether academically or otherwise, and you kind of that flips the switch, they say, Oh, I'm so I'm craving this so much that I'm willing to do so much more to gain this approval, not just from my parents, but from others as well. Because if I'm not getting that approval at home, or that supportive, that nurturing or reassurance at home, you're going to find it in other places. And, you know, sometimes that's okay, depending on where that lands, but other times, oftentimes, it becomes an unhealthy obsession, right? And people complain about burnout, or they're just depressed, because they're, the irony with approval and validation is that the harder they work for it, the harder it is to actually attain, right? And so, when you, because what do we talk about when people who are secure themselves secure, people don't need to seek this out, they get it because they don't worry about it. And they're okay that even if they don't worry about it, know, someone doesn't give it to them, because they just say, hey, look, it's their loss, right? And so, to get to a point to say, hey, you know, it's okay to say no to things, it's okay for people to disagree with me. And, you know, if they are that worked up about it, that's their problem, not mine. You know, that's a, that's a step in the right direction.

Yeah, you really bring up an interesting point there. earlier, earlier there, when you said that, you know, you you were held to a high standard from your parents side, but then also, your your family members in Taiwan, you know, gave you a hard time because, you know, your standard of language with them wasn't what they were expecting, you didn't sound the same. And I think that for many, you know, immigrant families and a first generation children of immigrants, struggle with that with language and dialect. And, and, and it's not often something that we think about that not only is it something that obviously is brought to attention, for what every time you speak, here, but it's also brought to attention every time you speak with your family members, or people that you know, you know, back in your parents home country. And you know, that, but it is something that people don't often think about how that can create for you this feeling of where where actually do I belong, you know, um, that kind of thing.

Yeah. And to dovetail on that, you know, there's this weird distinction between things and life skills in life. It takes time to learn, you make mistakes, you you learn, you know, you improve, and you get to a point of proficiency after enough struggle and failure. And as a kid, right? You don't think about this for certain things like walking, right? No one says, Oh, you're not good at walking, just don't do it. Right? Like people stumble, people get better, and eventually they find their stride. And so language is one of those skills, right? But then you have an honour shame culture that says no failures, bad failures, embarrassing. And so people just don't want to do that anymore. And so the irony is that the failure I try and avoid is actually keeping me from improving in such a way that would actually impress them and get to a point where language would be proficient. Right? And so yeah, it's just this weird clash of oh, you need time and effort and improvement, but then you don't want to embarrass people when you struggle. So in a way, you kind of have to find a safe place to fail almost Like a dojo before you go out on the street to fight, but, you know, in an honour shame culture that is predicated on making other people look bad, you know, you know, to to maintain your stance and your status. Yeah, there's just an unhealthy dynamic there that undercuts everything.

Yeah, and that's actually that's something that, that you said, there's really important to think about as well, especially in the, this social media world that, that we, that we live in now live in, and the, you know, the bullying that occurs there, and the bashing of people in this cancel culture that's happening, you know, with people. And it's entirely through, the fact that we are all living so much online these days, but yet, those can still be really detrimental and impactful to humans, to our fellow humans. You know, in these kinds of things that happen, it's, it's just an, you know, scenario, and we obviously know that the, the American culture tends to be, I think, more harsh in a lot of ways to our own people, you know, then than any other country, you know, me living in the last five years, I lived in Ireland, and little over five years. And it's not, that's not something that that's as prevalent, but it's definitely trending, you know, it is something that is trending globally. But it's, it's, it's very interesting to, to have lived over there, and sit back from and look at from an other country man's, you know, perspective, at how they look at what goes on in America, and how we treat our own people and that kind of thing. You know, a lot of people will sit back and say, you know, they would say to me, what's going on with your country? Like...

Lots of things!

I just throw up the hands? I don't know, you know, um, but, you know, you shared that one particular experience in the pharmacy, when the black man came in, and, you know, made fun of you walking out, what are some other cultural conflicts that you've experienced in your work life?

My work life, in hindsight has actually been pretty good. There. Maybe, I mean, if I've had any challenges, it wasn't about race and culture conflict, that was just more about just problematic behaviours in general, regardless of what ethnicity the person was, basically. And so, I mean, I could the one, one incidence I can think of that is kind of a lighter one was when I was still working as a technician in Tennessee, you know, many years ago, probably actually was my first job as in pharmacy. And at one point supposedly, I had taken a lady's prescription, but I didn't put it in a spot where anyone would have worked on it or, you know, gotten it to go through the workflow. And so, you know, when the pharmacist comes up to me, and she goes, Hey, you know, do you do you know, what happened with this lady's prescription? And I said, No, and she goes, Well, she said, she gave it to the Asian boy. And you're the only one, so I'm just like, Well, okay, get out of that one. Right. But that wasn't anything racist or anything like that. It was. It was just, it just so happened to be Hey, well, you know, that was the identifying marker. And, you know, there's there's no hiding from that. One funny incident I did have, though, was when, when I was between jobs after I moved to Houston, and I made the mistake of applying to a job that just called it company confidential. And guys, if you're out there, if you ever have to apply for a job, if they don't have the name of the company, just don't apply, right? But anyway, so I'm randomly in this interview, in this very, for this independent pharmacy, not in a great place in Houston, rather, not safe. And, you know, this black guy with the gold chain walks in, supposedly, because he's the manager or the owner or whatever. And so we're talking like, yeah, you seem like a nice guy and said, you know, yeah, you know, they, this could work out here for you let me I'll draw up the contract. You know, as soon as I have a spot available for you. And he made the joke. He's like, you know, you can talk to me about fried rice and I can talk to you about fried chicken. Just it's alright, then, you know, that was what that was. It was a it was a cute remark, if not the most offensive I didn't, I didn't, I was more amused and annoyed by it, really. But, yeah,

it is interesting, though, that these again, you know, these types of stereotypes are something that's really, really ingrained in, in all of us. And, you know, we think about that as soon as you said, you know, fried rice and, you know, fried chicken. It's something that we all you know, understand because it is so deeply you know, this those forms of sort of micro aggressions and you know, in racism, they are there and you know, they might be funny, but they're They are stereotypes of people, you know, of differing cultures. And my question to you is, you know, of being a person of Asian descent, you know, where do you feel that you said, you, you know, is in work you've not really ever had a hard time, as far as like the job that you do in that kind of thing? And do you think that that it all relies on the fact that, you know, again, stereotypically, people will say that people of Asian descent are very intelligent, they're smart, they're very dependable, they get the job done, you know, that kind of thing? And do you think that that is something that contributes to the fact that you don't really have a hard time in that aspect as far as your work and your you know, work ethic and what people think of you and that kind of thing?

Oh, I mean it's flattering I do. We joked about in high school, never made a couple of Asian classmates we said, you know, wherever walking the halls randomly to do something, you know, just running errands or something solid for goofing off overriding and walking around, and oftentimes, we'll forget to have a hall pass, but no one ever questions us. We're walking around the halls, because they, the assumption is, oh, you know, they're, they're on their best behaviour, and they're not up to anything. So I'd have to check, right? There's a funny incident, actually, in college. At one point, I was walking back on campus, you know, back to our dorm, me and a black friend. And you see this car cop, like coming around the other side, and he starts to slow down. He's to the cops squinting really hard at me and him. And we joke that, like, he slowed down because of him. But then he drove off because of me. It's like, oh, there's a black guy, but he's with an Asian, so that kind of cancels each other out.

He must be okay.

He must be okay. Yeah, they're not up to anything. But I mean, yeah. And the times that I have, you know, been at work. Yeah. I mean, typically, maybe people give me the benefit of the doubt, because they say, Well, you know, Asians are quiet, and they're hard working. And typically, that's the way I was, even though there was a point, you know, where I got fired from the job in Houston for because I wasn't doing the job, even though I was mild mannered. And, you know, I'm just trying to keep my head down and do my own business. But yeah, it's, uh, yeah, part of it is I remember, at my previous job, actually, the president at one point, he needed me to take care of some, some exams to get some prerequisites done. And you know, what, every time I pass the exam, they'll be Oh, hey, Jerry passed the exam. So So you better have, he went to Rice! He's a smart kid, and I'm just thinking, oh, gosh, I don't need those expectations. You know, it's, it's there, like, yeah, thankfully, not in a malicious way. But it is, it can get frustrating when people leverage the good things about your stereotype, somehow they want to use those against you in some fashion.

Yeah, that's absolutely. And, you know, it's sometimes it can those types of stereotypes can work in your favour. And obviously, sometimes, depending on, you know, what you're, you know, race is, even though, you know, that race is a constructed identity, and we won't even go into that at this point. But, um, you know, but sometimes those stereotypes, you know, work in your favour, and, and sometimes, you know, they don't, which actually brings me to my next question, which I'll kind of start with a little bit of background for the listeners. But, you know, people of Asian descent have been victims for more than 160 years in the United States. And according to a recent study that was cited in the Washington Post, anti Asian hate crimes have spiked 150% Since the COVID pandemic began. And the most recent being the shooting of those that 8 across the three Asian spas around Atlanta, by that 21 year old white man as an Asian man and and a conflict resolution coach that we're going to get into a little bit more here shortly. What are your thoughts on this trend? And what steps do you feel need to be taken to both heal the Asian community and educate Americans towards reconciliation and alleviating hate crimes like this against people of colour?

Hmm, yeah. So it's not a solution we're gonna solve and, you know, it not like you're gonna come up with the next half hour or so. But yeah, you know, yourself some, some early steps. Right. So let's, let's give a little more context, right. Racism has been a part. Yeah, as you said for the last 160 years, right, Japanese internment camps, right, you know, immigrant discrimination not even from Americans but other immigrants that see the Asians coming over as a threat, right. The show Warrior, based on Bruce Lee's writings is one of my favourites simply because they play up the dynamic between the Asian immigrants and then the Irish ones and then the American bosses that are exploiting both further labour, right? And so, you know, education only go so far. Right? On one hand educate. We do need we don't ignorance is never is never acceptable at this point, right? There's we're too connected. And there's too much information out there for us to not know about something, right? Because you can just do a Google search for something doesn't mean it's accurate, but at least you can't say you don't know it just because you don't know. There are, you can always find a way to learn or whatever you don't know. And so there's a bigger question of the motivation of the heart, basically, right? On one hand, yeah. When you write an American history book, don't just downplay the the mistakes of the of the country, right? We all talk about how great the founding fathers were, except that they're all slave owners. Right? And even worse, there were some mixing of races, because, you know, people decided that they want to try something different. And then you have these mixed race kids that definitely have no space, right? You know, in play, but that's a whole nother conversation. But all that to say, right, my hope in and what I've learned in conflict resolution is simply to be that powerful mirror, right? Hey, we have, here's something we have to deal with, right? I don't I'm not saying you have to feel guilty about this, because, you know, these mistakes were made while before you were alive. Right? And, you know, I'm just asking you, if you were a part of this or subjected to this, what would you do differently? Right. And so now, right, we're offering them the chance to, to apologise if they still feel if we, if they don't, the way, we still have to forgive, right? forgiveness isn't about whether or not the person deserves forgiveness, forgiveness is about hey, there's grace. And let's use that grace to move us forward to a higher standard where people everybody's seen heard and respected. Right. And so, you know, we can have all the DEI training you want, you could spend all them as much money as you want on that. And as long as people aren't motivated to achieve a higher standard for society, you know, on their own without necessarily your help. It's only going to go so far. So my goal, right is for people to have a safe space number one, where they can say, hey, you know, I saw some things, you know, that it didn't think were okay, but it didn't know how to speak up, or other people say, hey, my family has a history of prejudice. And you know, I really bothered about what they were doing. And I want to know how to make things right. Other people Yeah, just say, hey, look, you know, we got hit with some hate crimes. And, you know, I'd like to be able to address people in this space without fear of retaliation. And because on one hand, yeah, these people were victims, right, they did nothing to deserve what was coming to them. And, you know, we can't afford to stay in that victim mentality, either say, Oh, this is so unfair. This is so unfair, that some fair say, okay, at some point, you know, as a good book once said, right, don't Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And so yeah, the goal is so that Asians can have can feel more confident than expressing their their perspective and emotions and that other people can, you know, that everybody can really can be more willing to open up about their prejudices so that we can deal with them in a more constructive manner, I think.

Yeah. And just for clarification, because we do have I do have a lot of international listeners, when you refer to D AI training, are you referring to diversity, equity and inclusion?

Yes.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure uhm,

yeah, yeah yeah, let's Yeah, let's establish the let the abbreviation stands for before we start to jump into the abbreviations. So thank you.

Yeah, no, no, that's, uh, you know, it's just always good to make sure that people aren't like, I'm not really sure what DEI is. So yes, thank you for that. Um, so, with all this stuff that we've been discussing, discussing thus far, I'd like to know, you know, what are three life hacks that you would give your, your younger self?

The first is don't waste time on people who aren't willing to change their minds about things. Right. I remember, I'll give an example. So I remember there's a classmate in high school. We didn't get along. But we had a lot of classes together. And I remember at some point saying how Oh, yeah, you know, dancing is a good form of exercise. And he goes, No, that that doesn't, you know, that I don't see how like moving your arms around or moving your legs around for like, an hour or so every week is supposed to really do anything of benefit for you. And I just remember getting really worked up by trying to convince them why I was I was right about this and he was wrong. And then, you know, if I had to take my time to go back in time, it's myself and like, why? Like, why? Why are you trying to change his mind? Why are you so caught up in being right about this, like, stop wasting your time and energy on things? So yeah, to say that, it's just to say, Hey, if you like what you like, it's okay for other people to disagree with you. And that's, and that's more than enough.

And I think that's really important because especially like today, I think immediately when you said that I thought about the vaxxers and the anti vaxxers. And, you know, there has to be a level of respect that comes, you know, between people who, you know, adamantly say, Absolutely not, and not interested in, you know, and obviously, you're coming from a pharmacists perspective, and, you know, I certainly won't ask you to, to lay out your opinions on the matter one way or the other. But the point of the matter is, is that there are a lot of arguments, heated arguments, and sometimes fights that ensue, and, you know, terrible things, again, that end up happening to people because of trying to argue one side or the other and convince other people, you know, to, you know, change their mindsets. And, and I think that's really unfortunate, because I do think, as human beings, we do have a rights to our own opinions, and to our own thoughts in our own actions. And in that same way, you know, you know, whether you sit on one side of the vaccine, or you sit on the, you know, the other side of the vaccine, there has to be a level of respect, and no matter what side of the vaccine you sit on, you know, we all have to be careful, you know, with the people that are around us, and the people that we love, and that kind of thing. So, you know, it's more about care, and, and being careful and less about arguing to try to convince somebody to change their mind.

Yeah, I mean, you can ask questions around that you can get curious even and that's fine. I think, you know, just to be able to say, Hey, you don't someone's disagreeing with you, hey, get curious to say, hey, now, how did you arrive at that conclusion, right. And even if you don't change your mind, at least, to say hey be civil right to say, make sure people feel heard, as Stephen Covey says, Seek first to understand then to be understood. And even if they don't change their minds recognise, hey, it's their decision. And that's the second point actually, that I would tell myself to say, hey, it's whatever you decide, it's your decision. You're the one that lives with those consequences. You're the one that's dealing with this. And so, as hard as it may be to say no, sometimes, like you, if that was the right answer, like you get to say it, right? Like, they may get upset, but that shouldn't change your decision. And yeah, I mean, whenever it was my decision to go from pre med to pre pharmacy, or it's my decision to take the chain pharmacy job my mom wanted me to, but I didn't like that was my decision. And, you know, I didn't, and the temptation is to blame her for, you know, like, allowing me to convincing me that, you know, this was the best decision to take, but I allowed her to influence me, right. And that's the shift in thinking where you realise Oh, no, like, I allowed her opinion to override mine. Like, that was my decision to allow that. So that's the second thing I would tell myself to say, hey, whatever, whatever major you want, whatever career you want, ultimately, it's your decision. If you're unhappy, like, it's your decision to stay there, or it's your decision to do the work to move on. So that would be the second thing.

And I think often, again, that that idea of, you know, you said, about blaming your mom, you know, playing that blame game, I think, you know, as people we are often you know, when when we realise that maybe we didn't quite make the right decision or the, you know, the right decision for us or things get difficult. And, you know, we're muddling through something, we often want to play that blame game and you know, blame somebody else for our decisions and our consequences. So there's a really, really interesting point that you make there. And I, I love that life hack.

Thanks. A third one I would tell myself is, I guess I have like, 20 I pick from and so I'm just like, you know, which, which, which three do I want to share today? Another one is to simply say, Hey, I'm, like, go global. Like, I cuz I know, elaborate on this much. I got funnelled into a German language programme. When I was in middle school, there was like a new pilot programme to say, hey, we want you to be a part of this. So I learned German, you know, could I did realize I like could quit it but, you know, I was okay. Like, I was glad I was, you know, they wanted me to try this out. And I remember just being in high school and just having a very small world very closed minded about learning this language because I went along with it. And I remember thinking to myself, when am I ever going to use this list with items to the point and when I went to Europe for the first time, which actually involved a rotation in Ireland Tallaght hospital actually Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, we stayed at a bed and breakfast and templeogue. Oh, it was it was quick. But I remember just in all my travels, when that opened my eyes to just how big a world to see and explore, I would meet German travellers and every stop just about every step, whether it was Australia or Taiwan, or San Francisco or Prague, and I just, I can imagine God just telling me I tried, like I tried. Because I didn't work as hard as I could of I worked hard enough to get the grade, and I still have enough to impress like native speakers now, but it could have been so much more, right? Yes, yeah, say, hey, you know, hang on to this, like, it's gonna pay off in about five or 10 years, like if you're willing to keep working. So that's what I was, that's, what I talk about

again, I love that I love that life hack about going global as well, because especially for us as Americans. And I have said this actually in, in previous interviews and conversations I've had on on my podcast with others. Because again, I have a sociology background. And, you know, I'm always thinking about society and learning and society. But the idea that Americans in general, because the country is so big, very, very few, a very small percentage, I don't know exactly what it is. And I'm going to have to look it up, I think, for future conversations, because a very small percentage of Americans ever leave the country, and some don't ever even leave their own state. Yeah. And, um, and what ends up happening often is, there becomes that very narrow view of the bigger, wider world out there, as you had said earlier. And I do think it's really important that everybody take an opportunity, at some point to open your eyes to other global perspectives, and things that are going on in other parts of the world. Because when we have such a narrow focus and a narrow view, sometimes we think we are the world. And that is something that happens in America, in America quite often, especially when you listen to news. And they say, oh, you know, the world is, you know, you know, coming to a crashing halt, or the world is this, but when all they're actually talking about is America, not the rest of the world, not the rest of the big wide world, you know, the other 190 countries. You know, it's just, you know, sometimes we and that, that that comes from narrow perspective, and narrow, narrow, narrow thinking, you know, so going global is a great, a great life hack to, to remind yourself of is, you know, and I and I totally appreciate that. So, I want to talk a little bit about coaching and conflict resolution. You know, what got you into coaching and conflict resolution specifically?

Yeah, yeah, great question. So, basically, the first, I guess, taste of coaching or facilitating was while I was in the middle of a weird job situation. In in Texas, basically, to kind of get people up to that ramp people up to that moment. You know, I was working in a chain pharmacy in Tennessee, I got sick of it. I wanted a teaching job and the one I could the best chance I could do to teach pharmacy students. Was through a consulting company that I moved to Houston to work for a friend, you know, who worked there said, Hey, I previous positions available? Do you want to apply for it? I said, Absolutely. So I interview convinced them, I'm worth taking a chance on. So I moved to Houston for this teaching job get fired 11 months later, because I really just wasn't that serious about working hard at it, which was a sobering moment. But very necessary, I end up at another job where four of my paychecks bounced for only for those crooked doctors I hinted at earlier. And so that was a fun situation. And then my friends get me out of that. And so now with this company that likes me, but they can't pay more than eight hours a week. And so the only way I was able to get more hours was if I worked at their Austin location, which was about two and a half hours away. And you know, there's plenty of worse cities that could have ended up in but it just wasn't home. So I'm in Austin, this is 2012. Now the summer of 2012. I've no idea what my life is going to look like at this point. And I was tapped to help with some leadership seminars through a pharmacy, nonprofit, some of my friends, were on, and I said absolutely, I'd love to help out with that. And so teaching leadership kind of just started to get the gears turning in a different direction for me because before I said, leadership is hard. I don't like being bad at it most like that honour, shame, failure, right? If I fail a couple times, I don't want to fail anymore. So I'm just gonna stop. But now it was like, Well, what if What What if I could be a good leader? What's the long game if I were an effective leader? How would I carry myself you know, what work would that involve? You know, I gave myself the chance to dream and be allow for that possibility now, and so. You know, it didn't get easier initially. I got rid of them. You know, when it took after I took on Hold on position back in Houston, when I decided to take on this challenge of managers, and, you know, again just struggle to confront problematic behaviour from technicians and other people. And so thankfully, when that company had its funding pulled, I got another interview only because I have leadership experience on my resume. So number one, leadership is a struggle that has become a fascination. And this was saved my pharmacy career, the only reason I got any more pharmacy Jobs was that I had leadership experience on my resume. So I said, Wow, that was a really good decision. With that said, the job options, even though they were more, they were still limited in that they would only last one to two years, because smaller jobs that offer a higher quality of life don't last very long in health care. And so four years ago, when my previous employer went under, I said, Well, you know, I'm tired of fighting insurance companies and tired of trying to chase down doctors for prescriptions. But I love teaching these leadership workshops, which I've done consistently since then. So what would a career in coaching and facilitating look like? Like, what would that involve? And so it still took a pandemic, before I finally said, Okay, let me file the LLC. Let me get that business bank account up. And let me get the website up, because I realised I couldn't put it off any longer just because I was scared of failure and rejection. And I realised quickly I had the niche down, because there are plenty of leadership coaches join the club of leadership coaches, right. There's plenty of leadership coaches out there. So whether I realised that myself or my friends pointed out to me, they said, Jerry, like conflict is a no brainer. Whether you've dealt with challenges personally or professionally, this has become your calling now. And you know, it is still change nothing set in stone. But it's obvious to see when I share stories of the conflicts that I've dealt with, that I can, I can offer best practices to the people that I coach, or the organisations that bring me in to help make sure that people understand, hey, this is how we navigate conflict, well, we won't ever eliminate it because there is a form of healthy conflict that every organisation and relationship deals with, that can actually be productive. But let's make sure we get to that point and not like get mired down by the unhealthy conflict that we can see from broken promises or offensive remarks or, you know, complacency.

And, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, when we think of the word conflict, just the word conflict creates conflict within us. Sometimes you're like, oh, gosh, you know, people either run from it, or they embrace it, you know, they ignore it, they pretend it's not there, you know, there's many different ways to sort of manage whether good or bad, you know, conflict, and whether in your personal life or your professional life, but we know that conflict resolution, and being in that area can be really volatile. And it's a dicey area for even the most expert mediators, and coaches. So what motivates you and it what do you believe motivates you and sets you apart from other coaches?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what motivates me my own struggle with this, right, I am in the middle of this with any client that I have. It's a very personal journey. I believe that, you know, the examples from my life cover a wide range of topics and nuances of conflict. And so, you know, I'm happy to offer my toolbox. If it's, if that's what's useful to you, I'm not going to be ashamed to say no, it's a pretty wide toolbox, not because I want the ego but because, you know, the range of experiences that I didn't expect, whether I found them myself, or they came to me, right, I think that's what sets me apart. You know, when people say, Well, what kind of conflicts have you dealt with? And then I start to list them off, and they're like, oh, my gosh, like, yeah, maybe I do want to learn from Jerry, right? Like, okay, I can list them off now. One, I had to evict a roommate, like, that's not fun. He pretty much stayed in this room and dared me to actually follow through with eviction notices and calling the cops if you do not leave on time, right. And he would bet him bank on the fact that Jerry's too nice a guy to actually go through with this, and that, that pushed me over the edge. So anyway, that's one another was when my second day on the job as a church class director, I found that one of the newer guys in the class was sexually harassing women in the class. And they said, Jerry, you're director, you have to deal with this. You didn't give me a manual, just run toward the gunfire. Jerry, just go handle it. Right.

So what are some common mistakes that people make when they're involved in conflict that when they're on their own, or they don't seek the advice of a coach or something like that? What are some cons? Or some Yeah, some mistakes that people make?

Oh, yeah, I mean, I've I've been guilty of them myself. And the first one, as we kind of hinted at earlier was avoidance, right? Let me just run away or stick my head in the sand and maybe like a storm this will blow over. Right? But these conflicts are basically like tiny fires, and no one ever would say, Oh, well that fire is not big enough to for me to put out yet. Let me just go I can leave that I can let that build a little bit before I finally have to to address it, but this is what this is what unresolved conflict is. So thinking that somehow the problem will go away on its own, you know, there might be a chance that that happens, but rarely rarely does it, right. So that's the first one. And even worse, like, they think that overcompensating for this someone's mistake, like when a technician types up a prescription wrong, and I fix it one time, because I think maybe they just were distracted, but then it happens again. Now, it's my decision to, you know, continue to compensate for the fact that even worse, the technician doesn't even realise they're making the mistake. Right. So now I'm doing two jobs for the price of one. So another one is overcompensation, which leads to burnout. And that's never good work. So the second mistake is charging ahead, right, they just say, oh, you know, I got to go in this. And though they go in with the story in mind, that they that is not accurate, but it's justified. And so they go in, and they think they know the situation when they don't. And now they have to apologise for number one, getting the story wrong. And number two, you know, like antagonising, the person putting them on the defensive, right. So that's another common mistake with conflict. Number three, is, is interrupting. That's a fun one. Because when you are listening to respond, and that listening to listen, people don't feel heard, if they don't feel heard, they're going to get upset because they feel disrespected. So those are, those are three of the most common ones. Another one, a bonus one is thinking that conflict resolution is conforming the other person to your side. Like I'll give an example. So at one point, it's a pharmacist, I supervise, dispense the medication to the wrong patient, like they fill the medication under the wrong patient profile. And I as manager had to report the incident at the very least. And if I had to write her up as bonus, like on top of that, and when I sat her down, and the technician who made this work, who was part of this mistake, right? They, you know, she kept blaming the technician. No, she typed it up wrong, she typed it up wrong, she typed it up wrong. And I said true or False, you know, you're responsible for catching and fixing any errors for delete this pharmacy? Yes. Well, yeah, it's like, okay, so what are you gonna do differently? So this doesn't happen again? Well, I guess it could be more careful. I'm like, no, like, no, not acceptable, right? You need I need more specific actions from you. Even if I was right. I mean, I all I got was passive aggressive behaviour. The next month or so oh this is my fault too, Well, geez. So if I had to do that one over, right? I would say something like, Hey, do you believe I'm here to help you? If you believe I'm here to protect you, right? Because if all you see me for is just to pin, you pin this thing on you in an attempt to secretly get fired, right? When the real problem is patient safety, which we all have to look out for, you know, how do you expect this? How do you expect us to do any better? Right? How do we expect this relationship to improve unless, like, we're willing to maybe say maybe my story isn't accurate about the situation? Right? Are we on the same side? Well, yeah, like, Okay, do you believe I'm trying to support you? But yeah, it's like, okay. So, you know, as your manager, because my name is my reputations on the line to for every mistake that leads to this pharmacy How can how can I help you make sure this doesn't happen again, right. And it's a much more gentle approach. It's much more collaborative approach, and one that would ideally, disarm her and so she would she, her shields wouldn't be up so that I could actually get a message through to her for her to realise, hey, you know what, okay, even if I don't think it's my fault, well, maybe I could still do something differently, so that this doesn't happen again.

And that's a really powerful example that you just use, because especially even in just the way that you explained it and set it out to us. Because it takes the it takes the pressure and the focus off from a battle between you and them. And what you did was put it on to wait, let's think about the safety of others. Let's think about the safety of our patients. And you brought in that third party where it's then it becomes a something that you can both work towards, rather than both crash against each other about I absolutely love that. That's fantastic. Jerry, thank you for sharing that with us.

Sure. Sure.

Um, so what do you have any other tips that you use to, you know, resolve conflict effectively?

Yeah, sure. So there's, there's two frameworks I can take you through. One is available on my website as a free downloadable guide, actually. So I'll go through those steps first. Number one, so five steps number one is you have to imagine what a successful conversation sounds like. So the trick with this is that it allows people to think, oh, maybe I can do this successfully. Right. And also, you know, a lot of times people go and think well, I don't know how this is gonna go. I just started to address it. If you don't even think that there's a ceiling, you can hit like a target, you can hit a ceiling can reach it that usually doesn't go well, right? So you have to at least imagine, okay, what could this conversation sound like in a way that is civil and, you know, productive? Okay, maybe I haven't. Number 2 10 seconds of courage to reach out, right? People think, Oh, well, I don't really feel like I'm Superman or Wonder Woman, right? And they wait and wait. Now six months have gone by another like, it's not that big a deal. And they just rationalise it away. It's like, but you're still unhappy. So you just need 10 seconds, right? 10 seconds of courage? Can I just trust myself and send that text? Can I pick up the phone? Can I send that email? For just 10 seconds? can I just be brave? Okay, and then look, and that the trick with that, right? It's just the gate behind you. It locks it behind you, right? Because it can't be like, Oh, I've got a backtrack. It's like, No, you set that rock in motion, and it's gonna, it's gonna crash and burn unless you actually guide it to like the finish line. So step three, script your critical moves, right? Don't just think, Oh, well, let me think about everything in the head. It's like no, write it down. Right, get it out on paper. reorganise it until logical flow, make sure you just everything you want to trust. So now you've done your homework right? By Hey, let me make sure I address these points. Number four is to rehearse those moves, right? You want to train in the dojo before you find on the street? Right? memorising these points doesn't help. But if you practice them in front of a mirror, and check your body language, check your check your tone, do I project confidence? Do I know how do I keep my composure? When I say all these things, you know, how do I come across? Get a friend to roleplay your boss that you're trying to get a raise from right? Imagine what kind of pushback you might get as well. And the five do it. You've done the homework you've rehearsed, there's too much at stake, to not follow through. And that's that was the turning point for me, I was realising how much longer can afford to tolerate this, like, oh, I can't another day, like I can't even for the next five minutes, I better go take care of this. So that's the framework I walk people through. We've also use the five C's, that's, that's been one that's kind of been ironed out over several podcasts. So the five C's of this number one compassion, you want to have compassion for the other person. They are human with feelings and blind spots, just like you. So if you're all trying to be seen, heard and respected and treated with a certain amount of dignity, then yeah, like, approach gently. You know, be be be gentle, be open. And kind. Right. Number two, is courage. Right? You want to jump in, if you care enough about someone, Hey, you can't stand on the sideline. Right passivity. They talk about. You know, pain is not the opposite of love. Apathy is the opposite of love, right? Because if I didn't care enough about you, if I saw you're heading toward a bad path, and I didn't say anything that is unloving, right? Number three is curiosity. Hey, I only know so much. I only have so much perspective, let me get the other side of the story. You know, let me be a detective, let me show a genuine interest in other perspectives. Okay, now that people are curious, right. And that also helps build a bond, right? Because we're most interested in the people who are most interested in us. So if I'm showing interest and someone else's side of the of a situation, probably going to be a little more receptive to what I have to say, number four, is collaboration. Okay, now that we've kind of confronted things head on, let's shift to the same side of the table and look at a solution together. Okay, now that, you know, we've identified the problem and identified each of our role in each of our roles in this okay, how do we need to do things differently? How do you suggest we change so that this doesn't happen? And then five is closure strive for closure? Hey, go until you have something that works. Whether involves compromise, or otherwise, you need to have something ready? Yeah, those are the those are the five steps we say. And to backtrack real quick, on a successful conversation, just want to make sure people understand success doesn't necessarily mean restoring the relationship to 100%. Maybe that's not possible. Maybe you need to come to a truce of some kind, hey, you know, I'm only going to talk to you about you know, you know, work life and, you know, maybe some, some personal things, but anything about politics is off limits, anything out of religion is off limits, because I know, we're just going to, you know, get in fights with each other. So, you know, let's just not let's agree to not address these topics with each other, right? Because the relationship is too important for me to get tripped up on these things. Other times, you know, it is termination, right? You know, my roommate that defaulted on his lease, right? It's just like, hey, you have to go before I call the cops on you. Right? You have to like if you're not going to contribute to the cost of living here, then you need to leave. Right? And so you need to imagine that's what I mean. That's what my that's what success might be for people in certain situations.

I absolutely love both of those frameworks. And I think it's really useful for people that are you know, are trying to seek out some you know, some resolution to some conflicts on their own, and I know also that you have a blog that you do a blog, and on your website, so that, you know, people who are looking for you know, some do it yourself, I guess, if you will resolution to conflicts that they may be involved in. So I would highly recommend that, you know, anybody who is interested to, in conflict to go to your website, which again, is www.adaptingleaders.com. Um, so we're getting to the end of our conversation together, which has been so enlightening, and so interesting. But I just wanted to quickly say that I have recently read a book called High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. And it is, in my mind, it is so so good. She's such a brilliant writer. Um, and, you know, in that book, she talks about why we get trapped, and how we get and how do we get out of it. Um, and, um, she really brings out these like, harrowing tales about, you know, people that she's experienced and interviewed that have gone through really dramatic fights that really end up consuming their lives and makes them capable of coming, you know, of committing terrible injustices. She talks about a gang leader, she talks about a actually a conflict conflict resolution coach, who found himself in his own high conflict when he was working in public office, and she talks about, you know, a guerrilla fighter in the Colombian jungle, and how, you know, these, these conflicts had happened. So, I'm putting that out there as my plug for people to read this book, High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. But what I'd like to ask you is, do you have any recommendations? Or further reading? or information that you'd like to share with my listeners?

Yeah, sure. Um, I mean, books to tack on for those of you who want to get better at conflicts, happy to share some of the resources that helped me, you know, develop my own framework. Number one is Humble Inquiry by Edgar Schein just a really short read really great examples of how to value humility, when engaging other people and building relationships that way. Another that I use is The Four Conversations by Jeff and Laurie Ford, specifically, the closure conversation, which talks about how do you address broken expectations? You know, they say things that don't let people off the hook, you know, address things promptly. And they give some good ideas and best practices to increase your chance of success when having these conversations. I'll end with one story of just you know, how to engage in cultural conflict maybe a little more effectively. So we can study this before in the time we have left. So at one point I was and in the national networking event here in Houston, basically, they like to connect all the internationals, and I met an older white gentleman there at the end of this is at the height of the Asian hate crimes. And so he asked me, you know, it's kind enough to ask me, he's like, hey, you know, so well, all these things going on in the news? You know, is it really that bad? Like, have you experienced anything like this? And so I could take that comment, as one of two things, right. One is that he's generally curious and concerned. You say, hey, you know, this is the sounds really rough, like, you know, is have you ever dealt with this at all? On a personal level? Right. The other is that implied that media is just playing up a situation, which they do, but, you know, is this really as bad as the media says, it is like, is it really, and I'm sitting there thinking, well, people are dying like that's never. That's never a good thing. But you know, I, so I took I took this question. Okay. Well, hey, you know, have you considered that Chinatown in Houston was actually built on discrimination? He goes, What do you mean by that? Really? What do you mean by that? I said, Well, you know, what I learned was that city officials didn't want Asians all over the city. So they concentrated them in the southwest region of Houston. And, and they, they, they redistrict their region so that they couldn't even concentrate all their population into one district vote. So not only did they sequester them in a, in an undesirable part of the city, they didn't give him a vote. Right. It's all Yeah, that's not great. And I said, yeah, just because these people have not experienced physical violence. You know, I'm thankful that I've no one's assaulted me from being Asian, but that doesn't condone a bigger system of discrimination. That is still oppressing people to this day. So yeah, my goal was not to embarrass him. Right. My goal is not to pat myself on the back and say, yeah, look at Jerry's gonna be handling this, look at this. The goal is to be able to be open about these things. And it's okay if people are a little uncomfortable by it because if, if it were comfortable, if we stay comfortable, nothing would get done. So, my hope is that yeah, other Asians can study examples like this, they, you know what they can say something, but not embarrass or undercut anyone in the same way that I was embarrassed or undercut, but hey, let's come to a mutual understanding and say, Hey, look, we're not, it's not great, but we can get better and I'm going to trust you're going to be a part of it.

I think that when we when, as a society as societies, when we ghetto-ise people groups and put them into, you know, Section them off and put them into sections, you know, that that's not that doesn't become, you know, that is absolutely the opposite of inclusion, exclusion, and, you know, and we, you know, there's so many people, leaders that talk about inclusion, and, you know, bringing people together and that kind of thing, but, but if you are accept those types of things, as you know, as a standard, or as a norm, it just, it really diminishes that idea of inclusion. So, you know, those types of things, you know, really have to be dismantled from the inside out. And, you know, now, you know, Chinatown. Some, for very many Asians in particular, I correct me if I'm wrong, but it has it, in some ways, it has become a source, and a sense of pride and ownership in their area and what they've created and what it's become, but at the same time, like you said, the, the foundations of it, you know, was set in excluding people groups from society. So now, there's this really, you know, tense, tight wire that has to be walked in decision making and those kinds of things. Um, but you know, if this is, you know, one of the many societal wrongs that have happened for generations and generations, I just wanted to say something that you had said earlier, really, and I jotted it down here, and my notes just really resonated with me. And it was you said, you know, that conflict, you know, is at its height and happens when listening when you are listening to respond and not listening to listen, that's something that really, you know, really resonated with me. So, you know, what advice or wisdom that you have for our listeners as we close?

Oh, wow. And I ended with another story. This is one of my favourites to think not only just as a reminder for me, you know, but for also, there's just if you want to treat people well, I think this is the one of the best examples that I can offer. So there's another great book called The Charisma Myth, by Olivia Fox Cobain. And they she starts off with a story of the Prime Minister race in England. And it's between William Gladstone and Benjamin Disraeli. And at one point, they both happen to take the same woman out for dinner trying to court her vote. And so the local newspaper interviews are after this experience, and they said, What did you think of Mr. Gladstone? And she goes, I thought he was the cleverest person in England. Then they asked, Well, why did you think your time with Mr. Disraeli? She goes, I thought I was the cleverest person. And what's funny is when people say well, then Gladstone won, right? Because she felt that he was the cleverist person in England, but it's like, no, no, no, check this two books, actually, Disraeli won. And I think if we can all make people feel like the cleverest person in England. I think life will be a lot better for all of us. So yeah, if people want to learn more, yeah, check out the website, right, adaptingleaders.com free guide, complimentary 30 minute call, like if you just want to tell me about a situation need help with, there's formal coaching packages available for yourself or your organisations that you think could could use this help. And otherwise, know plenty of free stuff to start with. If your budgets tight.

Fantastic. So, Jerry, you've really given us so much insight on leadership on resolving conflicts and embracing your own experiences to really better yourself and to better others around you. And I really appreciate this time that you've taken with me to talk about this. I think it's very timely. I think it's very important. And thank you so much for spending this time with me. I really, really, really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me on.

Thanks.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on A Dash of SaLT, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Seasoned with just the right touch of experts in education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to A Dash of SaLT on PodBean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.