Ep 10: Nothing About Us Without Us: A call to action for embedding transformational change and widening social experiences and participation for disabled students in higher education.

12:12PM May 19, 2021

Speakers:

Shelli Ann Garland

Vivian Rath

Keywords:

students

disabled

disability

research

college

social engagement

senior managers

programme

important

people

belonging

voice

engage

support

dash

felt

terms

structures

barriers

person

Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr.Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in Shall we?

Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Dr. Vivian Rath Vivian Rath is a teaching fellow in Trinity College Dublin, and recently completed his PhD on the social engagement experiences of disabled students in higher education in Ireland. He obtained his master's in management from Smurfit Business School, where he researched the employment of graduates with disabilities. He's also a member of the Irish human rights and equality commission disability Advisory Committee. This committee has a role in the monitoring of the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. He has extensive experience providing support to people with disabilities accessing education and employment opportunities. As a person with a disability. Vivian has been a disability activist for many years campaigning for greater participation of people with disabilities in public and political life. He's currently working for ahead as a project research officer investigating reasonable accommodations and professional placement, or our a PP wrap. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast to speak with you about some of the findings from your research and about the importance of voice in school and community. Welcome, Vivian.

Thank you very much, Shelli. And I'm absolutely delighted to be here with you to discuss this important topic and of course, to have my voice heard. Absolutely.

I'd like you to tell us a little bit about yourself and about your programme of research.

Okay, well, I mean, a dash m, I've just completed my PhD research on the social engagement experiences of disabled students in higher education in Ireland. Dasha, and I'm a lecturer in disability and disability rights in Trinity College, Dublin. Bush, my interest in this topic goes back a very long way. And in actual fact, I suppose to give some context, the background, that goes back to my time, when I was in higher education in Ireland, and that I, when I went to college, to study pharmacology, how I didn't know at the time that I was actually among less than 1% of the total student population with a disability. And so it can be, you know, I did, I felt a little bit alone, I, you know, I actually felt disabled and put it and it was, it can be more challenging, I think, for a person when you are very much in the minority, and you don't see anybody similar to you in that environment. And bought, in fact, definitely changed for me when I was in second year in college, when I lived on campus with my brother, Paddy, and another disabled person who was visually impaired and we all lived together in a in a house on campus, when we went on actually then to establish a student society in the college called inclusion, participation and awareness society. And the thing about dash was that I during that time, I got to know other people living on campus for people with disabilities and widows, and we formed a community. And although there were many barriers to my full engagement with the college, including, you know, inaccessible buildings, and bad attitudes, but also my chronic illness as well. those barriers didn't seem to matter as much because they had a community around me, and I felt like I belonged. And but but after that, I went on to represent a student body as the vice president for the Students Union, and that we should set up a wheelchair pass Ball team.

I then went on to do a master's in management and I focused on employment of graduates with disabilities. And what I found during Deaf research was that a graduates were finding it difficult to gain at jobs because they didn't have those extra curricular activities on their CV. And so when they went into interview, they didn't have those extra items to talk about. And, and those students or those graduates reported back to me that those were the barriers and employers will always also noticing that these were missing from their CV. So after that, I worked in the University College Dublin for a couple of years in the area of student transitions, and the Office of the Vice President for students. And I realised, you know, that I really wanted to investigate this, that I really wanted to identify password barriers and enablers to the social engagement of disabled students in higher education. And so I decided to do my PhD in Trinity College, Dublin. And that's, that's where my, my journey has brought me to here at this point. And did you find it hard as a student or as a person with disability yourself, and to separate yourself? Because I know this was not enough ethnography, per se, this research? Was it hard for you to set yourself aside and have sort of an unbiased look at your research? Or? Or what were the types of things that you did to make sure that your research wasn't biassed? That's a really, really important question. And in actual fact, surely That is why I tell the story of my own background first, because I think it's the first thing you must do is you must look at yourself, and look at your positionality. And to engage with that and to reflect upon your past, and to reflect on where you are now as well. So as I can, as you can state See there straightaway, reflection was a really important part, engaging in identifying your positionality really important part. And I engaged in that process throughout my PhD to ensure that there wasn't that biassed and that we have to accept that it is very, very difficult in a qualitative study to take the researcher on the research. So I think the most important step straightaway is to call it a wish to acknowledge a to really question yourself and question your position. And you know, watch, that can actually be really difficult, and quite challenging. And I was very lucky that I had a great supervisor who was prepared to talk to me about it. But also then I had other disabled researchers in the college, and did I could rely on and trust to talk about those issues to tease them out. And I think one of the ones that initially created a challenge for me, was the idea you are once a person with a disability, or was it a disabled person? And that's in itself? A it actually are you I would say I transformed or evolved over the PhD journey from calling myself a person with a disability. So you know, person first to actually describing myself as a disabled person. Because by the end, you know, I'd say at some point in the research, I saw myself working for transformational change with my research participants. And, and of course, one of the key aspects of my research is that I use a combination of the transformative paradigm and the bio ecological model. And the key with those is, number one is that Firstly, it puts the student at the centre of the research. And what what you're actually doing is you're working with your participants for transformational change by using a social justice approach, and that that furtherance of human rights is partially It was really, really, really important to me during my research journey.

And that's actually an amazing response. As you know, you and I, with our even though our research was very, very different, we always talked about sort of the the the twinning or the identifying factors that we both had, was that we were doing the same and I also what, you know, my my research had to be highly reflective as well and I had to bring my business additionality into my research because it was about volunteering and, and things that I had been so involved in and, and what I had to consistently do to take myself out of my research, and to look back into the participants in their in my research because I was so involved and so passionate about volunteering and that kind of thing. So I know, that's one of the things that we said that we'd have those crossovers together with our research. But the other thing that I thought was really important that you said was that that idea of making transformational change. So So what you're doing in your research was listening to the voice of your participants and listening to the voices of the students and then working towards transformational change by doing it so it's so that whole act of you know, what is student voice and then actually, making those changes at the same time is a really important piece of that. How would you explain to the listeners to somebody who maybe doesn't? Isn't in the academic or in the university community? How would you explain what student voice is, and why it's so important.

Shelli, as you know, I like to keep things simpler. And I would like to think, you know, student voice is an expression of the student, and those expressing their opinions and their views. And, and, of course, it is, I think it's very important that with that voice, there will be differences in views and differences, opinions. And of course, critical to all that is that that voice is heard. And that's a, I really feel that that was one important aspect of my research was that ensuring that the student was at the centre of research and had the opportunity to have their voice heard. And, of course, another important aspect was, I am a disabled person, your your listeners probably don't know that I have a physical disability myself. And I've been a disability rights activist for many, many, many years. And so I could empathise with a lot of the barriers, but also, a lot of the barriers to having your voice heard. And, and the key thing that your listeners wouldn't may not realise is that disabled people have actually been researched, sorry, researched more than being researchers. So it was very significant that a disabled person would be the researcher in this. And that, in itself, is actually what makes this research somewhat unique in terms of that. This, there hasn't been researched on in Ireland, on the social engagement experiences of disabled students. And because, to be honest, add disabled students in higher education is a relatively new phenomenon. And that's, that's number one. Number two, is that there has been a real focus on just getting disabled students into higher education and focusing on their academic needs. And then let's just get them out. Rather than focusing on that wider, holistic student experience, that opportunity to socially engage with the wider community to meet friends have coffee, and play football, beyond the team, be the leader of the team, be the leader of the Students Union, and are simply to just have your voice heard in class. And I think it's really important that we remember that there were a lot, I would feel that the wrong different levels from having your voice heard different ways of having your voice heard. Put none of them are any more or less important. So if like, I mean, I would often hear of disabled people talking about that if they so we'll take a separate person who maybe was for a cup of tea, and they had a personal assistant with them. And dashi. Somebody would ask the personal assistant, how many sugars does the disabled person want, as opposed to asking the disabled person? And so that is not having your voice heard here is just as disempowering as having your voice not heard on not being elected for a big office. ,

Yeah, and taking that agency away from them.

Absolutely. Right at that. I totally like talking right.

Yeah. So I actually would love to hear and I think the listeners would be very interested in it. Hearing about some of the experiences of the students in your research, and maybe some of their struggles to be heard, and then the kinds of impacts that it had, that it has on them.

Yeah well, some of the main findings around my research, around everbearing social engagement came around a number of themes. So for instance, the four themes were around engagement, there was college climate, transitions and structures, and within them, and within those themes, then there was a range of information around, say, for instance, student belonging. And there was a real connection there, between social engagement, having your voice heard, and belonging, and in actual fact that the majority of the participants had both students and staff because there was staff also involved in my study, in actual fact, the senior managers in the college were were involved in the study, which again, was unique to my research, and also the disability support personnel. So those would have been the people who would have supported the students in the front line. And why I took that approach was, which was really a systematic approach was in terms of, I looked at the whole system, and the different layers out from the students following a plant from brenners bio ecological model. And so within that, then it was seen that as disabled students, although they felt they were socially engaged, almost all of them reported barriers to their social engagement. And always barriers included lack of awareness, a structural barriers still continue to be a problem. And, and I think, one, you know, short story, which I think encapsulates so much that was it was a student called Mary. And she had just transitioned to her college, and was attending probably her fourth lecture, I think it was, and but it was a late evening lecture. And she was sitting at the back of the class in a kind of a little cubicle that exists, that so in some lectures were disabled wheelchair users are actually cordoned off in an area on their own. And she said she was up there on her own and the class went on, and that was fine. But at the end of the class, a number of students came up and introduced themselves and said, Hello, and decided, they all decided they would go for a coffee. But it turned out that there was no coffee bars open in that building. And so they had to traipse across the entire campus to get to the student building. And when they finally reached it, which, you know, took some time and was quite exhausting for the students doing day in and day, they realise that the coffee dock was upstairs. The elevator didn't work. So the students a was like, Look, it's fine, we won't bother. And she was like, No, no, look, go for coffee, it's fine. Don't worry about it. And so eventually, after much persuasion, did go for coffee. And she said that that really was the point where she just felt you know, she didn't belong. And that what made that worse, though, was she reported that incident to student service. And four weeks later, that elevator still wasn't fixed. So there was a combination of factors there that came together to really, firstly, make that student feel like they didn't belong, but then disempowered that student as well, by not listening to that student's voice. And so that's an example. But in terms of belonging, the majority of students felt that they didn't belong yet, sorry that they belonged in their college. Yes, students were on disabled students were uncertain about their sense of belonging in class. Now, that is the very place that senior managers and disability support personnel want students to be confident about their sense of belonging. And yet students were uncertain about that. So we have to ask ourselves the question what was happening there? And one thing that perhaps we could point to, and is that that when students were talking about disability awareness in their college and talking about their college climate, which by the way, they felt was a very, you know, supportive environment and the people cared bush when it came to this Ability awareness, almost half of disabled students felt the college wasn't disability aware, and that their peers were less aware than the staff.

Interesting.

So yeah, it's very interesting. And I think that's something you know, that probably needs to be teased out a little bit more, both in terms of voice. And students are sorry, senior managers and disability support personnel really felt that voice was hearing the voice of students with central to creating a sense of belonging. And of course, we know that students who feel like they belong, are more likely to stay in college, they feel greater levels of happiness and contentment, they actually have greater success in their college. So belonging is very important and voice is important to that. Yes. Seeing senior managers reported that they were unaware of any disabled students in senior leadership positions in their college. So if the students weren't in senior leadership positions, they most likely weren't on decision making boards within the college. Now in Ireland, we have a very important programme called the widening participation agenda, which is the aim is to increase the diversity of the campus. And there has been quite a degree of success in terms of disabled students in terms of that the number of disabled students when I attended college in about 20,000, and started college in 2002, was just less than 1%. It is now you know, it kind of been around a range of 6.57%. So there has been an increase. But yes, senior managers, were unaware of any disabled students in senior leadership positions. So how can students disabled students have input to the wider decision making process of the college? If they are not on those decision making boards? And we have to ask the question, we'll find now senior managers said, Well, actually, you know what, that's the responsibility of the Students Union. The Students Union felt, well, yes, we do that it's our representatives, and guess we probably could be doing more, but we're not really sure about what we need to be doing. Now, the reality is that it is the responsibility of everybody. And it is the college's responsibility in relation to their committees, to ensure that what was evident from my research was that there really, there really hadn't been any thought or consideration into what needed to be done to facilitate that. And what structures needed to be put in place, or what supports in actual fact, there was no evidence of any structures or supports. And if we consider that then in terms of the wider agenda within Ireland around student engagement, and student success, which students actually spoke about a lot. Students spoke about that a lot, boys, and if we talk about it in terms of our National Student Engagement programme, which sets leadership and diversity and representation as key pillars, we have to ask ourselves, well, what's going on here?

Yeah, that actually leads me right perfectly into the next question is that that idea of the lip service, so often promotion of student voice, especially student voice for students with disabilities, or disabled students? There, you know, that that promotion can come off as very tokenistic and lacking any real substance? And, you know, do you see changes happening? You know, since you started your research, and if so, what are those?

Yes. As you know, Shelli, I'm a pretty optimistic person. So, any little change at all? And I know you will be, you know, take that's very positive for you. Yes, there are changes taking place. Deep. I think probably one of the biggest problems, though, is that those those changes are not right across the board. So they're sporadic, are usually as a result of maybe a one very interested individual who has made changes in their colleges and seen that true. However, there are programmes Of course, which have been implemented across the majority colleges, and I'm thinking say, peer mentoring, and student mass Ambassador programmes, and so they were originally implemented for the student body to support the transition of students. into college and in the general student body. But what happened quite a pop was evident from my research was that these have no actually been established specifically as well for disabled students. And now, of course, they were always open to disabled students participate. But colleges have now focused on bringing on board disabled students who act as peer mentors, maybe for other disabled students are maybe not which depending on your choice. But those programmes have been very, very positive. And in my research, I can see lots of evidence of students enjoying those. Now there was a bit of variability in that, you know, with some students really Martin getting along the river, that is the mentors, because I think it's really important that the mentors get as much out of it as the mentees. And that is, because we do have to remember that the mentor is a student to is just there might be one year ahead of the students they're mentoring. So I think those programmes were very effective. And I give you a very short story, I remember, I did an interview with a student, a wheelchair user, who I met her off camp off her campus, I met her in an environment that suited her, and that the student was very quiet, very timid. And was, you know, we had a great chat board, it took a while. And that's, you know, why I came away thinking this is, you know, this is a shy student student didn't seem to be having that much social engagement. Bush, as part of my research, I actually did some site visits to particular colleges, and that, I remember going out to the college that that student was from. And I met this student, as a mentor. And I couldn't believe the difference. This was like six months later, this student had decided after the interview, to enrol in the mentoring programme, and in that college or product, what they were doing was ended, the student was involved in assisting other students transition into college. And the student was so confident, and she was showing leadership skills, and was enjoying herself and had had friends and fun. And it was just, it was a really great example of a programme that was working. And it was really, from my perspective, it was super. And so I think, yes, that there are changes have been taken place. And I think they are working and that another I think important thing around voice,

which came up in my research was around disability peer groups. And that's in my research, that I'm on disability support personnel, and senior managers to an extent, but mostly disability is more personal. You know, there is really polarised views on the importance or effectiveness of disability peer groups, and whether they should be supporting them, and whether they should be actually encouraging the students to participate in the general student groups. And why you should we have these particular disability groups, was that not a bad thing? Was it a good thing they, you know, and there was really quite, you know, some people were quite a confident in their views, that was a bad thing. And we shouldn't have them. And both was interesting, from my perspective, was to see that in the colleges where you had disability peer groups, there was greater disability awareness among the senior managers among the disability support personnel, among the students union, in particular, because those groups were liaising with them, and it senior managers would speak you know, all the person whoever was in charge or that group. Like they were friends, they were you know, they knew them. And so that was that was quite interesting. Now, I'm not saying the disability peer groups or dependency to improve and disability awareness in the college, but certainly there and improve a contributor to doing that. And I think a funny day are important is because they give people an opportunity to share experiences. And that I think that's really important in an environment where you're in the minority. And you don't see anybody else that you don't get. You don't get to ask that question. of are you having that problem too? Finding out Yeah, and then I'm not the only one then. So I think that's really important. And as relation to that,

and it really makes the, you know, having those types of groups really creates an awareness and it produces this, you know, where, where something would be often just overlooked and unseen, it creates an awareness so that then those who are unseen, becomes seen.

yeah. And I think that's a really important aspect. And that's why I did this research on the social engagement experience of disabled students in higher education. Because when it came, you know, in terms of, if I go back to the results, in terms of belonging, you know, pop was critical to that was doors, really small social engagement opportunities, like having that cup of tea, like meeting somebody in the corridor. And those were actually the, those were the key points, I always thought, you know, a social engagement with something so much bigger. When I started my research, it was like, you know, being involved in your Students Union, but actual fact, in most of the interviews, it was just like, as long as I have someone to act cool for a cup of tea wish to share my problems, ways to improve my mental health. Those were the important things to people.

Yeah, and, and social interaction, and social relationships need not be any more than just two people. So you know, you're either an individual by yourself, and that's the you know, from a sociological perspective, that is, you know, the importance. It doesn't have to be about a group or about, you know, large groups or small groups, it can be just an interaction between two people, and then it becomes a social, you know, awareness and a social relationship. It just takes two people.

That's right. Absolutely. Do you know, do you know how Shelli, what was interesting and just remember on, you know, the talking about voice here, much of the read, you know, the research and the literature would suggest that disabled students in higher education, need to learn to advocate for themselves, and have a better understanding of the rights in college. The findings in my research actually suggested somewhat differently. And from my research, it was obvious that students were generally aware of the rights under words, evidence of them actively speaking up for themselves, Bush, disabled students were not having their voice heard. And that, they found that they were having to advocate much more than the general student body. And he just found that tiring. And so that in itself is really disempowering for students, again, who weren't able to have that voice heard. And then just just got worn out from having to advocate for small issues, like the door delivered isn't working again, or I can't access the wheelchair toilet, because it's locked again. So those were the frustrations of disabled students when it comes to having their voice heard, and advocating for themselves.

So what can we do to get educators schools government and policymakers to listen?

Okay, so I think one aspect, which I would start, which is the idea, the need to identify disabled students as role models, in leadership positions, so the ones that are, are currently in leadership positions need to be identified as clear role models, because in my research, it's a case of if you can't see it, you can't be it. And disabled students, in my research report to being very proud of knowing a disabled student who was in a leadership position. So we tudents responding delegate gave them that feeling. If they could do it, then So could I. Yeah, and these are spiders, spiders, bonds with literature as well, which shows the positive success stories can be empowering and may encourage other students to work through challenging times. So that's the that's the first thing I do. But the second thing that I be recommending is that colleges need to really look at disability proofing their structures within the college. So if, for instance, that you have a college board of some type, that you ensure that you are making sure that the students are offered the supports to be able to engage with that board. So If it means proactively doing, it doesn't mean waiting on to the first meeting, it means actually getting out there and letting them know in advance that, yes, if you need a sign language interpreter, we can provide that for you. You don't need to worry. Yes, if you are a student who needs a personal assistant, you can provide that for you. And that needs to be done. And I think, what what I found from my research is that within colleges, there wasn't the structure to be able to report that I need these supports. So okay, so if it's outside your academic, your core academic, which there was plenty of the disability services were very well known well, and good attach both signed it, that there wasn't a way of accessing that support. So again, like in the Students Union, and the Students Union, I think have a lot of work to do in this regard, is actually they need to push in a reporting structure. So a disabled student attending event, or attending a society club or meeting, or wanting to participate in the elections, that they can actually report I have a disability and I need some supports. Who do I go to? And how can I access them?

It shouldn't be complicated.

It shouldn't be complicated, but it doesn't exist. Right? It does exist. And that's the thing. And surely one thing that was really I was taking I was taking a backlash was the fact that some students reported that, you know, they went to, to join certain clubs. And as part of that, they were required to declare their disability. But the students didn't feel comfortable declaring their disability to student leaders of these groups, because they wonder, well, where does that information cool. And there needs to be a bit of work done around that, in terms of reassuring students, that that data is going to be handled confidentially. And you see, I suppose the issue is that with student groups, as we know, that the leaders of the move on very quickly, and the whole structure of people that were there can move on very quickly. And so your information moves on then somebody else. So there is some work to be done around that too, because it is acting as a barrier to engagement by some students. So that's number two. So now I've talked about the role models and and number two is the implementation of structures. For that, for people to be able to engage, I think, number three is that it was noted during my research by senior managers and disability support personnel, that in a competitive equality, diversity and inclusion agenda within the colleges, the disability can actually fall down the priority list with other issues. So for instance, maybe I know in Ireland at the moment, and gender quotas is very significant, is Athena Swan, and LGBTQ MD international students and involved. And so the result is the disability issues fall down. And that is compounded by the fact that you actually don't have disabled students sitting on those boards are, which is equally big an issue, you don't have disabled staff, because there were so few disabled staff within higher education. So these issues are being compounded by the fact that we don't have people there. So really, colleges probably need to be taking positive steps to actually appoint a disabled people onto these committees in order to support that process to ensure that vice is represented. So I think that probably could be another step. funding, of course, is an issue a, that the in terms of and I think surely you know a little bit about this, students in my research actually found barriers to their wider civic engagement. So like volunteering, and as you know, civic engagement is a high priority, and a part of most colleges, strategies. No, and it has to be a, a to an order to develop all the key graduate attributes that you're expected to you are expected answer to engage in that wider civic engagement and that volunteering aspect. And for some disabled students, that's not an option. Because it once you finish class, there may not be the supports to engage in that. And as a result, you don't have dash scale on your CV. You don't get obtained that graduate attributes. And, and so, the remote door examples of senior managers themselves that's registrar's and vice presidents advocating themselves on behalf of disabled students to ensure that funding was found somewhere in order to enable that student to participate. And that, you know, that story sounds great. But that's not a structure.

That's one person.

Yeah, that's one person. And so I think there is a piece of work around that that needs to be done to ensure that we actually see, yes, social engagement and civic engagement is important for all students. As a result, we are prepared to fund and fondos support where necessary. In some cases, supports are not necessary, but but there are for for a number of students. And now there is a view that there was a view shared, that was that should be up to date voluntary organisations, but as you know, some voluntary organisations don't have the resources to do that. But sort of the wider discussion that needs to be had about that, and we have to ask ourselves in higher education, well, how much do we value that? And do we value it equally for all students?

Then if it's a principle on if it's, you know, one of the, the, you know, defining principles of your strategic plan, if your university and it's one of the, you know, defining principles there, then, you know, my opinion would be that it would be the responsibility of the university, then to make that available, you know, for the, for students to be able to volunteer, and again, that, you know, that's kind of a story maybe for another day, but it definitely, you know, is important, it certainly isn't, you know, the, the volunteer organisations responsibility. And, and if it is something that the strategic plan states that the university says, These are the types of graduates that we the graduate attributes that we want our graduates to have, when they leave the university, you know, that they're civically engaged, and then they should, you know, make sure that the structures are in place, you know, take care of that for all students. Because it you know, like you said, before, it's everybody's business. And, you know, in this, this really matters. So, you know, you can't just say, only some students, you know, can be civically engaged, because they're able bodied?

Yeah, I think Shelli, that's a, I'm sure you would have, I mean, met disabled students who may have or may not have been able to engage during your own research.

Absolutely. You know, those who in and it's not even always just, um, who may or may not haven't been able to engage, but the, you know, we also have to think about those whose engagement is diminished. Because, you know, maybe they, you know, they tried to engage, or they, they do engage in some in some capacity, but they don't have the, the ability to fully engage because the structures aren't there.

That's absolutely right. And so and I think what that comes down to then is that we really need a colleges need to really implement and I think nationally, we need to implement a, that's a strategy and policy around that. And we cannot be just leaving it up to one very interested individual, because that is not as that's not a platform or a strategy for success into the future. And so I feel that at a policy level that we need to really actually embed this now into, and we we very shortly will have a new national plan for equity of access. I believe that it's now time to move on to actually widening out that social experience for disabled students, and to look at those aspects like social engagement, civic engagement, leadership, and the wider experience. And I think, if we included in our national plan, I think it would be very useful. And it would really give give colleges some support as well. Because one of the things is that I would say is that there really was an interest and willingness to do something by senior managers and disability support personnel, and particularly by the students unions, but they also didn't know what to do. And so I think that we need to give guidance at a national level now as to what needs to be done. Yeah,

absolutely.

Well, Vivian, we're now at the point in our conversation when I like to ask my my guests, my guest speakers to share some resources, some links or book recommendations, that that you think would be helpful for anybody that's interested in finding out more about student and voice Or how they can help?

Yeah well, was actually just on an I think it's important in relation to the topic is around universal design for learning and universal design. And I was actually reading up recently on Katie Novak and Katelyn Turner. And that I think they, they, in terms of universal design, I'd highly recommend that they look at some of that work, especially now, in terms of, I'm thinking of blended learning. And I think it's important during this time of transition into the blended learning environment, especially in an environment where that we're going to have maybe some students in cats and some students online at the same time, concurrently. And so I think that how do we we need to start asking ourselves the question, how do we ensure ensure equity have a voice in that environment. And so in terms that I think that might be useful reading for people around Universal Design for Learning, I think is well ahead, dash IE have some great resources at Asha, which would be which be useful. I read a lot. On on follow Twitter records. And I think you can really get some great updates on that. And of course, then I think it's useful to listen to your podcast Shelli.

And I will make sure that the links to like AHEAD are put into the descriptor for your particular episode here. As well, as you know, if you want I can put your Twitter handle in. And if they're, you know, we have any discussion about some other Twitter handles are hashtags that they could follow or things like that, I can make sure to put them into the descriptor, as well. So Vivian, any final words of wisdom, before we say Adieu.

One of the most important things that people can remember, or think about is the motto of the independent living movement, which is nothing about us, without us. So when you're planning your next committee, just have a little look around the room. And ask yourself who's not in the room? And then think nothing about us without us and start including disabled people.

That that is actually wonderful parting advice and wonderful words of wisdom for us. So thank you so, so much for you know, taking the time. Again, I you know, I know that you're, that you're quite busy with everything that you have going on, and especially, you know, in the process of really disseminating widely, widely, this very important research. And so thank you for taking the time to spend with me and with our listeners to talk about this important topic, Vivian. Thank you.

Thank you, Shelli.

I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts and education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.