Hello welcome to inclusive occupations, sharing stories of not just being invited to the party but dancing. I'm your host Savitha Sundar, I'm a school based occupational therapist. This podcast is a space for OTs and others who work with children and youth in education to be informed, inspired, and empowered to create an inclusive community for the students they serve.
Welcome listeners, I am honored and excited to be doing this episode today with one of my long awaited guests Dr. Erik Carter. Dr. Carter is a Cornelius Vanderbilt professor of special education of Vanderbilt University. He is a highly distinguished professor and person who began his career as a high school teacher and transition specialist. His research and teaching focuses on strategies for promoting full participation, belonging and valued roles in school, work,community and congregational settings for children and adults with intellectual disability, autism and multiple disabilities. Dr. Carter has published more than 250 articles and chapters as well as seven books in this area of educational and transition services with children and youth with disabilities. He is the recipient of multiple awards and recognitions. And he is also the co-editor of "Career Development and Transition for Exceptional Individuals" and associate editor for "Exceptional Children and the Journal of Religion and Disability."I urge you to check out his website, www.erikcarter.com and be amazed at his accomplishments and contributions in the space of disability and inclusion. So without further ado, let's hop on to our interview with Dr. Eric Carter.
Welcome, Dr. Carter,
I am so excited to have you on my podcast today. And I have really been looking forward to this for several months. I didn't think this was going to happen,.... About a year ago, I was like, I should contact Dr. Carter and see if he will be on my podcast and wasn't sure if you would agree. But I'm so glad that we made it today. So
the questions that I have for you,.. I have a lot of questions for you. And we'll see how much we get through with... I want to start with your story. Tell us a little bit about the journey that led you to where you are today with over 250 publications and such extensive contributions to the promotion of inclusion and participation of individuals with disabilities, especially those with intellectual disabilities and extensive support needs.
Sure, let me just first say that it is a joy, to be honest with you, I think we share so many interests and passions, it's great to converse about these you know. My my entry into the field, I think was very unexpected, at least for an 18 year old me would have been surprised that that the work I'm doing around trying to change the landscape for those with extensive support needs. I think I think that would have been a surprise. I grew up like a lot of young people in kind of in a world that didn't really functionally include people with significant support needs. I don't remember students in my classes, in the clubs I was part of and the neighborhoods, the places that I worked the, you know so. So for me, ideas about inclusion and and relationships and belonging were as it relates to developmental disorders was probably the furthest thing from my mind. But as an 18 year old, I sort of stumbled into some unexpected relationships with other 18 and 19 year olds, young adults with intellectual disability and became captivated by the friendships that we've unexpected friendships for me, but to discover just a deep reciprocity in those relationships, that there were things that I brought to young adults who are having a very different experience of life than I, but also wonderful gifts that I received in that friendship as well, that transformed my values, my sense of worth, my sense of what matters most. And so from that point on, it was almost a calling of how do I help other young people who are growing up in worlds that don't include people with disabilities stumble into those kinds of relationships, and out of those, discover that reciprocity and mutuality, and that deep friendship, that we're all really craving, that origin story that of course, led me to say, well, well, what role could I play in trying to create communities that that enable those kinds of encounters, and that's what I've been about the last now 30 years from that time. is trying to really open up opportunities and create the kinds of support so that people with disabilities can, can be befriended, and can be needed and valued and loved. And likewise, others can be befriended, and needed and valued and loved by those who have extensive support. And so yeah, I don't know what my career assessment would have been when I was in high school, but it wasn't this, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. Now, as I know, you and many other people will be listening, there's a sense of deep sort of calling to this work that you can't help but do it.
Yeah, I totally agree that this is a calling and people's life experiences at different points, help us make those decisions. And you started in special ed, as soon as you ... after your experience with friendships with individuals with disabilities, right.
So pretty pretty soon, originally, originally, my thought was that my work would be within the context of faith communities. That was another place where, where I didn't see people with disabilities being welcomed. And we've within the context of that, so I ended up dropping out of college after I've had experience trying to figure out what to do. And then pursuing undergrad degree in religious education, and then coming to Vanderbilt to get a degree in special education to try to bridge those two worlds. And that has been a theme of my work, certainly, as we'll talk about soon, I'm sure. But, but I I didn't realize there was a field of special education until, until I started to dive deeper and realize, you know, what an opportunity to not just think about, about widening that welcome in our faith communities, but what about our workplaces and in our in our K 12 schools and our colleges and all these other places where life happens? And people aren't, aren't aren't having the opportunity to participate fully and meaningfully? And, and, you know, what role could we play in doing that. Special education is a fantastic place, though, to, to try to make that change, because the patterns that we set in K 12 schools end up rippling out for many years after graduation and into so many other areas of the community. So it was the right, the right place for me to be parked for, for so long.
Totally. So I would love to hear about various projects that you are involved in ....ways you are putting into action, all those years of research on enabling full participation and belonging for our students with disabilities, adults and students.
Yeah, I mean, I think the phrase you just used around inclusion and belonging is the way I think about the work that I'm parking on. It really is trying to think about how do we create the spaces and the places and the support so that students with disabilities and, and even young adults and others can access the very best opportunities within that school, the most rigorous and relevant instruction, but also do that in ways that leads to relationships. And those are the kind of the new three R's, we talked about rigor, relevance and relationships. And they're not competing priorities. They're, they're, they're things that can happen together. We don't have to think about the academics to the inclusion, exclusion of the social or vice versa. They are things we aim at together. And in fact, when we do people are.... when we when we think about both of those together, we end up I think, making more progress on both outcomes than we would have had we thought about one, one versus the other. So in a sense, that's, that's what we've been trying to do in our K 12 schools. We're looking at at what does it mean to be part fully part of the life of your school, not just slivers, not just slices, not just the kind of thin veneer of inclusion, but to really be part of the rigorous instruction, the relevant learning opportunities and all the rich relationships that take place among kids in school. But then that was sort of where my origin, you know, my first position rather, was as a high school special education teacher trying to do that. And then I realized that students graduated, that they go on, you know, the local students are going on. While that happens, students are going on to college or community college or university, and those opportunities weren't, weren't available for us as well... for our students as well. And so they're missing out on these formative, you know, opportunities for a career path and all of the things that college unlocks for people. So I began to get interested in how do we do the same thing at the collegiate level? And I'm sure that's something also that we'll talk about. But how do you open up the college experience when so many of our students would meet the traditional entry requirements. So that's been another place of thinking about inclusion and belonging. And for those students who aren't going into the into into college contexts are usually hopefully going into the workplace. And so there too, we see, here's these wonderful opportunities in our communities to share your gifts, and your talents to make contributions, to be needed and valued. And yet, so few of our students were actually transitioning into those experiences. It was more often to the couch, than into into any kind of, you know, corporation or business or whatever it might be. And then finally, you know, what I think about these four areas of K 12 schools and universities and workplaces is, is that original passion around faith communities that for many students, we serve for many families, not all participation in a faith community is so vital to their thriving and to their flourishing. And so there to where we have a context that's not bound by federal mandates to be inclusive. How do we invite and guide our faith communities that are, that do have theological convictions that they ought to be about this, to do that. Well. So I don't know if that encapsulates? Well, what I've been about, but it really is inclusion and belonging in those four contexts. And there's a lot of commonalities there. But also, each one has its own distinctive, their different contexts. Yeah,
I think it's, you've you've kind of explained it really nicely, starting from schools, to college to employment, to faith communities-that's probably a really supportive environment for a lot of our families who have individuals with disabilities. So my question for you is that, how do you go about with peer mediated intervention, and that's one of your big areas of research. And it is one of the most promising interventions for individuals with extensive support needs. And you have also published extensively in the space and you talk about the three different kinds of peer mediated interventions. Can you share about that with our listeners,
but more
sure, you know, I noticed I noticed notice early on as a high school special ed teacher that as I was helping support my students to be part of all that happened in that high school, that, that when we started to draw in peers, rather than relying exclusively on people like me, or paraprofessionals, or, or other school staff, a couple of things started to happen. One is we started to see our students just be more deeply woven into what happened in that classroom, because they were turning to their peers for help, they were returning to their sharing ideas of peers in small groups, they were learning from peers and peers were learning from them. And, and out of those interactions repeated over time, friendship started to bore out of that. But I also saw the same kind of transformation that happened for me, among lots of those peers that this too, was relationship they might not have otherwise pursued. And that doesn't describe everyone, certainly at all, but and they too, were learning differently and better sometimes, and developing friendships that were of great value to them, and their views about the world, but about disability and diversity were changing as a result of this. So it just seemed like wow, this seems like a like a really like a win win. But what does it look like to do this well.You know, I was trained as a teacher that I'm the primary support, I know best. I'm the expert. So I became really just captivated in the role that peers might play in supporting some aspects of inclusion and belonging. We don't want them to become many teachers. We want them to be friends and classmates and schoolmates. And so I joined in kind of a long line of, of wonderful research that had been happening for quite some time to look at different models of doing this. So you mentioned three approaches. There's so many different names for peer- mediated approaches. So these are just the the ways we describe the work we do. One is called peer support arrangements. And it's it's simply trying to think about how we involve peers, usually one or two peers from within us in the same general education classroom. To provide some of the academic and social support a student needs to be part of the life of that classroom, that learning community. So peers are invited. The they're provided some orientation and guidance on how to be good classmates to one another. There's a paraprofessional who used to be a one to one who's now kind of pulled back to this more facilitative role, who's helping get the peers and the student going, working together, hopping into model good strategies, stepping out when they're not needed, and overtime, fading that support so the student is more and more learning from and with their peers and a gen ed teacher, rather than exclusively from that one to one paraprofessional, in the back of the classroom or the corner of the classroom. So in fact, when we do that, both students are more engaged academically, I mean, the students without disabilities, they're all more socially engaged, but appropriately and out of that more learning happens, but also sometimes friendships are born out of that. Not always. But sometimes. So that's one approach.
The other second approach is called peer networks, peer network interventions. These are simply ways of connecting students with and without disabilities outside of the classroom. So our approach is identifying three to six other kids in that school, who share some of the same interests and passions and commonalities as the student, inviting them to be part of a group that gets together maybe once a week, over lunch before after school at a free period, just to hang out, do some activities that are fun together that they choose and are mutually enjoyable. But to have that adult support to kind of facilitate those connections to help when kids get stuck and aren't sure what to do or how to adapt things. But they are too try and to fade back that support so that now the kids are just eating lunch together, they're just hanging out on the playground. But it requires some of that structured initial supports, so everyone feels comfortable and competent in those roles. And there too, we just see the growth in new relationships that are born from that. And then kids start to get together, not when they're asked to as part of a network, but by choice in other times of the school year.
And then finally, the third approach that we're seeing is a more school wide approach. So schools might adopt kind of a formal initiative, we call them peer partner programs, they go by so many different names locally. But there's ways that others are ways that schools that are really still trying to move into that space of inclusion. And I'm doing more group based experiences of kids with and without disabilities coming together on various activities, or certain times of day or for service learning projects or other kinds of things. That just provides an initial introduction among the kids some social opportunities, and then out of that may be an entry point to greater inclusion in the school. So we've looked at all of those, we're trying to understand how they work and why they work. But every study we've done have shown just significantly better outcomes for kids with extensive support needs, when they learn more and with alongside peers, rather than exclusively just with all of us as professionals, so it's really is proving to be a win win.
Yeah, thank you for sharing about peer support groups, peer partner programs and peer network interventions. And they are... they are quite successful, and enabling this authentic inclusion for our students in schools and communities.
So
and I would just add, for your listeners who are interested, we can I'm not sure how you post this. But there are free resources on how to do all of those approaches. And we're glad to connect people who are interested in them.
Yes, I will definitely add that to my show notes- the resources. So and you cite and in one of your articles that there are more than 260 colleges and universities that offer programs supporting students with intellectual disabilities, and peers play a significant role in their success in higher education as well. So what drives these peer volunteers to be mentors? And What expectations do they hold for their peers with disabilities?
Right..Yes, it's a great question. There's just a burgeoning movement on university campuses to try to figure out what it looks like to do inclusion while there. So I think now the numbers are up to 315 , 320. My own campus of Vanderbilt has had a program for about a dozen years now. And it's really exciting to see for all the reasons that that you might imagine, but the opportunity for now, the experiences of students with intellectual disability who are part of these programs, to get to know you know, 1000s, potentially of other students who are on their college or university campuses are really exciting. We actually did a study just a few years ago, looking at what is it that draws these peers who serve in formal ways as kind of mentors and guides and fellow schoolmates to students who are part of these programs? To better understand what what is the motivation for them, and what is it that draws them? It is really interesting that, at least at the five universities that we we did our study with about 250 peer peer mentors, about 94% of those students already had prior experience in some way, with people with intellectual disability, maybe in high school, maybe in a Best Buddies program, maybe maybe having a family member. So these programs are drawing many people who've already had some kind of experience in some way in the past, which is an interesting thing to note, because we're also interested in well, how do you get people into it who might not think about it initially in that sense, But we did ask about the things that led them to get involved. And these are just kind of, you know, some of those that are kind of from those that were most affirmed by the majority of these peers versus sort of moving down. So they talked about in aligning with their personal values, they talked about, it just been sounding like a really fun experience. They talked about wanting to give back to the community, about wanting to learn more about disability and inclusion, many talking about the personal ties they have to people with disabilities. And here's one more way to live that out. A large number, although two of our universities were faith based institutions talked about aligning with their own religious values, it was a commitment they had that drew them as well. Others talked about it aligning with their own personal career planning. So you know, they already wanted to do something in this broad field. But this stability, here was a way to get more experience. But then others talked about just a friend recommending it, or, or staff recommending it or teacher saying this would be really good for them. You know, some talked about it, enhancing their resume!. It wasn't, it's not always that sort of, you know, what we think of kind of a pure motivation. But it's interesting, that's at the beginning of getting in. At the end of it, that's not what they talk about at all. And so I do find, sometimes people are drawn into an experience for the reasons we might not hope they were drawn in. But very quickly, that changes, and they talk about sort of the benefits and experiences. So that says some of the motivations, I think, I think people, you know, some of those are the same reasons people will get involved in any college activity. But some are specific to this. And we're really interested in tracking these peers longitudinally, which we haven't done yet to find out what did they do after? What changes for them after graduation of college? Does this change? How they leave their communities or corporation or faith communities or the the places.. their businesses? Like, are they different because they've had this experience, so we can, but I imagine..or help, but imagine that they are in some way.
Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question. How is how is it in the long run? And and I was also going to ask you, if most people who come into volunteering this have a career path along this line? Or is it you know, people who are just, you know, interested in doing this for other reasons, but do you find a majority of them choosing careers in this line? Or do they switch carriers after the experience? Has that happened?
Yeah, we actually we have data, you know, kind of at the end of that first year that they've done it, and I don't know long term what people do for many. It's a, it's a, it's a small shift in career. So we've had many people who maybe always planned to go to medical school, but now are thinking, Well, I never really thought about sort of having an emphasis on Developmental Disabilities in my work, or making sure now I can serve better that segment of my population, some do change and say, you know, I never know, I was a student at Vanderbilt in a class and a student with intellectual disability was part of that I got to know them through that and it drew me in and now I realize there's opportunities to, to stay involved in the lives of people with a teacher or as a, as a related service provider. So I think we see examples of that. We also see examples of people who, it's just an experience, they did it, it was valuable. And it doesn't always transform that career trajectory. But it is it is interesting to think, Well, what what did they take with them, even though it doesn't show up in a different kind of job? You know, is there a different way they approach people or think about their community or other spheres of influence they have. So I think that's something we really want to understand more, not because it has to have those experience those those outcomes to justify this, this is just the right thing to do the right opportunities. But I think it just adds to the adds to the much needed argument that inclusion, if it's done well and well supported, can really be mutually beneficial for everyone. It doesn't take away from others experiences, it doesn't hinder other people's learning. And so I do think we need more data to back up what we what we also affirm to be true that this aligns with our values and is good for good for the students that are part of it.
Have you found these relationships sustaining beyond the program or beyond? Beyond the context that they are developed in...carrying on those relationships outside?
Yeah, I think it's, you know, it's one of those things that one can't answer at a global level, like, for all any more than one could answer that about any relationships. I mean, any all of our friendships form or falter for all kinds of reasons. So certainly there are relationships that are born out Have a particular period of time that we, we have a shared experience that our college or shared experience in a, in a high school, you know, science class and you know, and then when that shared experience goes away, our paths don't cross as much. I think. But also, I think we see plenty of occasions, many occasions in our own data, where when that shared experience is built around common interests, and it happens over time. That's the recipe for relationships. I mean, it's a recipe for any of our friendships, and we have to add for, for individuals with developmental disabilities, we have to add valued roles. So here's the distinction I would make, that when people roles are largely to be a helper, or tutor, or in some role, like almost like a, a support staff in some way. I think that those are the relationships that are less likely to continue. After that experience is done. That makes sense. So when we're saying, Hey, can you be a can you be an academic tutor here? Can you be a can you be really this students, you know, primary support in the classroom. That's not, that's a shared experience. But also, there's a contingencies to all of that, that then go away when that experience is done. So I think you see, you see the relationships that are more likely to last, or those that have things they do together, where their connection among them is around some common interests, they're part of a club, where they have the same passions, they're part of the same class where they, they both get to explore this passion of history or music. And, and now they've got a common bond that also connects them down the road. So I, I tend to think that's the case. I've noticed that anecdotally, but there's not data to tell us, you know, what's the recipe, quote, unquote, for relationships here, but But I will say that, if people never have the chance to meet, a friendship will never be born. And so you know, we have to be one, create those opportunities, and to make sure that we're connecting students in ways that lead to the kind of outcomes we hope will follow. So if I'm if my goal is really to help an individual form a larger friendship network, that's going to shape how, who I invite, and how I invite what they do, and how I equip them. Versus I'm just trying to get someone help in a really challenging astronomy class at Vanderbilt, that might lead to different selection appears, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, to kind of form these relationships around common interests. And that's, that's exactly what our previous podcast guests spoke about, as well on when talking about kids on on the spectrum. Having these friendships and relationships, social connections were stronger in interest groups, similar interest groups. So
So you talk about integrated employment, and you have a recent publication that's still in press on how employment is more than just a paycheck to paycheck from the perspective of parents. Any insights on employers perceived value in integrated employment?
Yeah. Well, I think there's there's two pieces I want to highlight, I think, one is that more than a paycheck piece, just to drive this home, that, that a job is not just, it's not merely what we get on Friday, in in our guests, we used to get checks deposited directly into our account. But think about all the other good things that come when we find a good job for anyone, but particularly those with extensive support. Think about the pride that comes from that the greater independence, sense of purpose, the valued rules, the joy that can come from that, of doing something that you'd love to do, not every job is a joy, I understand. But the way it makes them feel like anyone else and promotes that sense of belonging and engages and challenges them and connects them to community and the friendships that come out of work. So we're not simply thinking about work as a, you know, as a transactional thing that will bring, bring people more mone. All kinds of other good things come. And so that's really important as we think about why we pursue this too. It really is a part of flourishing. And I think the same thing has to be said on the other side of the employer side of this where this is not merely a good thing to do a nice thing to do for a segment of the community that really needs these opportunities. And those are true, but I think we're fighting that kind of our more charity mindset of trying to help those less fortunate by giving them a job.It's actually transforming to a really what we call business strong business case for hiring people with disabilities. The data that I talked about in inclusion schools also see seems to bear out in workplaces that it can be a win win if it's done well that businesses get good employees who are excited to come to work. And I again, first of all, I need to back up. This does not characterize every single employee, or every single employer. But but but you start to see, here's here's an individual who really wants to work, who's excited about coming to work everyday who has lower absenteeism, who comes with additional support, when we have good job coaching or integrated support, who can contribute to your business and talk about the culture of their business changing as these young people are coming in and bring a new life and joy and enthusiasm for this work. And out of that, also, the concerns they have about safety and liability, don't bear out at all that there's not, there's not any degree of greater concern around those sorts of things. So in that sense, employers who had the good supporrt, who had good support of their employees with significant disabilities will talk about this really was a boon to us. We didn't realize we thought this was a just another employee or a good thing to do. But actually, we couldn't imagine now having a workplace that didn't include this individual. That's kind of the business case story we're wanting to hear. And there's so many in our own state, we capture those stories of employers talking about why they went from, I don't know, I'm worried, I'm concerned. Will this work? To, I wouldn't want to have it any other way. I was overlooking a, a wonderful segment of my community who has gifts to share, and who so often is not seen, in light of the gifts they have. They're seen in light of the deficits they have. And I think that's part of the challenges for a society that still sees people with disabilities largely in the language of limitations and deficits and challenges, no employer hires someone on the basis of those things, to hire on the basis of people's strengths. So we're a national disability employment awareness month, our campaign in Tennessee is called Hire my Strengths. And it's just making that case that your people in our in our community have incredible strengths. And that's exactly what you need in your business. So it's about matching the right strength to the place where it's most needed. That's the work that we're trying to do. When that happens. That's when employers talk about this as being a thing that that others must pursue.
That is so wonderful. And I was thinking of this question. So you're talking about this support system that these employers need to have to make this a success? To have this done well? Do you provide any kind of training in in that? Or how do you how do you make the path, You know, successful for both employers and the employees?
Yeah, so we're not a direct support provider. But we are our inclusive higher ed program does a lot of this kind of work about connecting students. And there's a whole service system that does this as well. So one, it's very true that job coaches and job developers really do need guidance and training on how to think about discerning that assessment process, which doesn't mean to evaluate or, or, you know, assessment as a kind of a bad word sometimes. But it actually means the Latin root is "to sit beside". So there's this process of how do you sit beside someone with a disability with extensive support needs in this case, and try to discern what those strengths and interests and preferences and passions and gifts might be. And then to be able to think about your community and network within your community to figure out where are those sorts of things exactly what might be beneficial. So that's a different kind of process than going door to door and saying, who's willing to hire people with extensive support needs. So there's a different posture people need to have. They need to know how then to approach employers and and to, to convince them or to invite them into this work in Winston ways. But to assure them that there's going to be the ongoing support on the job that's needed. And the students we're talking about today need extensive supports long term. So they need to provide guidance to those job coaches on how to provide just enough support, how to be a connector to other co workers and a facilitator rather than the one who does for or instead of the student. So there's a lot of training that can be really beneficial here as well. And for employers, I think the better place , the place we try to think about training is how do we go to places where employers gather like Chamber of Commerce meetings and other kind of convening, to help give them the awareness of the potential benefits of doing stepping into the space and doing that well. So they often need their traininh. If that's what you want to call training. They need that on the upfront to be willing to step into it. And then it becomes not about training employers to hire people with disabilities in general, it's about equipping that employer to support John, in their workplace. It's an individualized process. And I think that's, that's the approach that we want in all of these contexts we're talking about is this individualized design of support, in personalized supports that match the context. And then we want to constantly revisit those supports over time. Because we know they have to be adjusted. People change, employers change... all those kinds of things. So it's just a, it's an ongoing process of reflection, and then responding to that.
Yeah, I just love this, this a way how you are showcasing their gifts and their strengths, to to have them be employed, and kind of taking it away from that charity lens. And making employers aware of that, I think, is just putting into action, the strengths based practice, we keep talking about all the time, but we don't know how to do it. So I think there's a lot more people can learn from you. And I think we've just touched the tip of the iceberg here. And there's a lot that you have going on that I think interested people can explore further. So in your experience, how much are related service providers like occupational therapists and speech therapists and behaviorists, involved in these placement decisions in inclusive settings, I'm talking about school. So idea, IDEA states that supplemental aids and services are to enable children with disabilities to be educated with non disabled children to the maximum extent appropriate, and in your experience, how much are related service providers involved in creating spaces that are inclusive for the students they serve?
Well, you know, I have to say that what an incredible contribution related service providers can make to these issues, and to so many aspects of the schooling of students with disabilities. And I just, you know, I think that, that our field has always advocated for these team based approaches that capitalize on the various perspectives and expertise that people can bring to, to all areas of a student's education, particularly around the placement kinds of questions as well. So so I wouldn't want it any other way. But for that input to be solicited, and, and incorporated into a really well rounded, IEP and support plan for people. Now, the extent to which that happens on the ground is highly varied. And I don't think that's a surprise for you to hear that it varies widely from not just district to district and school, school, but even within schools, depending on the particular personalities, and the ways they were trained, and what they saw modeled in their own experiences of pre service training and practice, and those sorts of things. So, you know, I can think of examples within, you know, 30 minute drive of our campus where they wouldn't do it any other way that, that that those those planning, this planning meetings, which isn't the only place that perspective can be sought, it's it can come. It's an ongoing process. But that really is seeking out the perspective of the OT, the PT the SLP, and, you know, Behavior Analyst about what's the what's the right combination of supports, that are going to enable the student to really thrive in this particular classroom. And then together, combining that into what would be a really compelling plan. But I would say my most experiences that, that it's, it's far less common to see that happen. And it's for structural reasons. And for other reasons. It's not a lack of desire among related service providers and special educators to do this. But sometimes there's not, it seems like there's not the time in the day, it seems like there's not the space. And actually, sometimes it isn't, the time in the day. It isn't the space. But I think some of these are systems level issues that as an administrator, you have to value that you have to see that as providing a better education, and in the long run, saving time, perhaps, because you do it well on the front end. And so I think that's the challenge that that a lot of our teachers face is, is they would love to be surrounded by that kind of support as they do this planning. But they just struggle to figure out what that might look like. And same thing with related service proviers. They got into this field, because they want they want to advance these kinds of goals. And so we just need to find kind of more clever ways of working within the boundaries of limited time and, and fatigue and, and too much paperwork and all of these barriers, because that's what everyone got into this field to do and and that that's what's best for the students. So that was not an act like that was not a specific answer to.... 55% of them do this or not. It's just that, like all aspects of what we've been talking about today, it's so varied and uneven. And it reminds you that, then this is not a problem of our students with extensive support. If one student with extensive support needs is fully included and woven in and has great supports, and others with the same kind of characteristics isn't experiencing that. That's an issue of how we do schooling. That's an issue of how we approach, of our attitudes, of our actions as educators and professionals and systems. So. So it's a reminder that it can be done because there are others who've done it. And it's not something inherent to well, it just can't be done for kids with extensive support. So I don't know if that's a helpful reminder, if that feels more.
Yeah, I think I think you just brought it out so well, you kind of addressed it from all different angles to systems problem. It's a personal problem. It's a personality problem. It's many, many, many things. It's a combination, many things, why things are not ideal.
So and like I mentioned, different schools are at different stages in their journey towards full inclusion, and we all desire as a society, that we want people of all abilities to live and thrive together, where there is no segregation, yet, the everyday challenges for educators are real. The majority of us need to simply get by the day meeting mandates to keep up, keep us in compliance. And change seems overwhelming. And so we continue doing what we've always done. What is your take home message for our listeners, who are mostly educators and related service providers in school and the desire to do more, but feel caught up in this grind of everyday life?
Yeah, yeah, you know, you always want to be an encouragement, I want to remind people of just the, the incredible and deep impact they're having on the lives of their students. I think we all got into this field, because we want to promote the flourishing of our students, academically, and socially, and behaviorally, and vocationallly and all these ways that we know, are so important. And so I just first would commend all of you who are listening for the investment that you are making, and to, to kind of continue to grasp hold of that thing that called you into this work, and that you're really trying to move amidst all of these challenges that that faces. I think the other is just trying to figure out what is your sphere of influence? What can you do within where you are right now, to begin to evoke some of that kind of change, I think we so often feel overwhelmed by the wide range of things in our schools that seem to be working as barriers or hindrances to what we're trying to achieve. And so, you know, it's often trying to figure out what is that one place of influence, maybe it's, it's getting that peer support arrangement going for that one student in that class, that begins to kind of crack open those doors and develops that relationship with a gen ed teacher who then becomes an advocate to other gen ed teachers to do this as well. I think that's part of it. And it's also finding other people who, who, you know, remembering your core values and the things that you You're, you're you're sort of your your core principles here and find other like minded people who can encourage you and you're just feeling stretched and down, but who could also be allies and advocates, as you think about how to move your own local system a little bit further. I've been at this for 30 years, I guess, in various ways. It's long haul,its long haul work. And it's, it is very easy to be discouraged. But you have to kind of zero in and say, you know, I want to notice much more closely in the change that I am seeing to celebrate that well, and just find that next small thing that I might be able to knock down or push away or break through that, again, leads to more flourishing for my for my students. So I don't have a fix for the complexities of of the work that we do. But I could say we have got to stay at it. We've got to double down, we got to get some, some encouragers and allies and out of it just kind of keep centrally focused on what is our charge. It's not,it's not being compliant. Our charge is really helping our students flourish. And so I just would, again, commend all of you, that's what you're doing. That's what you come in to do each day. And, and, you know, I'm encouraged and i'm smiling now. Because when I think about what we're trying to do collectively, it's the right investment. And so just keep at it.
Thank you so much. Thank you. I think you've shared a wealth of perspectives, information and knowledge here, and I think our listeners are going to benefit greatly. Is there any question that you wish I had asked you, anything that comes to your mind?
I think we can go on and on talking about sort of the the opportunities that are in front of us. Well, I'll just say, we touched on it, we began with the notion of belonging. But that is, that's a concept and a language I'm enamored with. And so I would, I would just encourage people to think not just about where your students spend their school day. But I would also think about the relationships that they're forming in those places. Inclusion that's merely being inclusion as a real estate issue of location isn't what we mean by inclusion, and what we all want us to have this deep sense of belonging. So just, I guess this is another encouragement to think about whether your students really are experiencing that deep belonging in their schools where they are present and, and invited and welcomed, and accepted and known and needed, and befriended and loved. That's the markers of what we're aiming for as we think about changing our schooling. And so I guess that's on my mind these days of how do we be about that work? And I imagine that many of your listeners are about that work and, and hopefully that will be some encouragement as well.
Thank you, Dr. Carter.
Thank you. It's good. Good to be with you and good to have this conversation.
