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Hello hello Test test test Hello Michael we can hear you
awesome I can hear you as well Mariana
oh this is actually a Christian with logos or fearless toast de has been sent home sick so I'll be filling in for him today okay cool
Do you have like any pre music or bumper stuff for let's say as we got seven minutes before before we start right so
we got some music here we go.
That music did disappear started out
let me see what I can do. I had on my end one moment
for everybody in here the music is turned on on my end but can't hear it so doing some troubleshooting
Hey everyone I think it's all good though if we just have a few more minutes?
All right, alright everybody we have hit noon, at least my time. We're just waiting on Maryana to join us and then we'll get started
All right, looks like everybody is here. Thanks for being here, everyone. Full disclosure, if you hadn't realised it's my first time hosting a Twitter space. So that takes me a little longer than d. That is why I appreciate your patience today. We're going to start off with introducing our speakers today. And let us start with Santiago. He is part of the Lobos family. So I'm going to start off with you just tell us, for anybody that doesn't know you and hear a little bit about yourself and your work.
Sure. Hey, everybody. Thank you for being here. Thank you, Christian for hosting last minute. Yeah, I don't know how to introduce myself. But I've been in this for a long time, along with our other speaker today, which is really actually very funny because we knew each other since 2010, but never in person and only through aliases using like soft sell domains, because we're working in projects related to WikiLeaks, citizen journalism, a lot of stuff also related to crypto but indirectly. So I've been involved in all of those things, particularly in whistleblowing, I was involved with a lot of activist movements back when anonymous became a big praying. I've been familiar and involved with Bitcoin as well, since that time, so like late 2010, through my connection, also with WikiLeaks related projects. They also led me into basically cryptography as a tool for liberation and protection against arbitrary authority basically. So those two things combined led me to join logos as a core contributor, the beginning of this year, and I am helping organising the community giving the communications some sense, and I call myself propagandist in chief was a kind of joke, but there's a lot of things we do internally as well. So yeah, that's kind of a short intro to who I am and what I've done.
Alright, thanks for that. We do also have you talked about Mariana she is with us in the group as well. Mariana, if you want to tell us a little bit about yourself.
I just had to use a speaker as well, Mariana. So now you should be able to talk.
Hello, everybody. I am Mariana. I am very happy to be here with you. I am working in Lagos, where I am doing basically research about special economic zones, and the way they intertwine with startup cities and network states. So happy to be here.
All right, thanks, Mariana. We also have Michael, I've only read it so far. Parenti, that's how you pronounce your last name. I hope. So. If you could also introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do.
Here, buddy. So yeah, I'm the old guy in the room. Born in 1963. And then online since there's been an online and through that, and I've always been hanging out with people that are thinking and working on the front edge of software. And so I was a member of the cypherpunks mailing list when Bitcoin white paper came out and was aware of it and all the arguments that we've been having, right up to this date, were pretty much laid out in the first two weeks after the, after the paper was was published. And so I didn't really take it so so seriously as anything other than a you know, a new development from from previous work and in the area of digital money until WikiLeaks actually happened and was blockaded by PayPal. Now's the time where where Santi and I were both heavily involved in the the anonymous and low sec and WikiLeaks and Arab Spring social movements. And so as a result of being online I networked with a lot of people involved in hacker circles. And things I ended up working at the Bitcoin Foundation in the early days, which was an interesting time, and then later joined status as their resident Cypher punk. Back in 2018, I believe it was and spent some time with them, and gave me a good glimpse in the Etherium community where there's a lot of idealists and, and people that are working on a lot more interesting ideas than what's happening in Bitcoin at the time. And through that I've been involved with hackathons and all kinds of conventions and things around crypto. And I'm a longtime member of parallel in the polis in Prague, which is the crypto anarchist collective. And so yeah, just kind of like interested in all of these ideas.
Alright, Thanks, Michael. Um, I am just going to start this all off. Go ahead and just get from all of you start at the beginning, kind of the your definition of a network state, and we'll go kind of in the order that we started with, so Sandeep, you want to take that that first one?
Sure. Yeah, that's, that's a great place to start. Because I think there's still, I mean, because there hasn't been like real life example, I think yet fully fleshed out, I think it's a great place to actually, like, talk about this, because we need to have somewhere to go to, and I know some people in the audience and emceeing are also part of network state projects, at least two of them. So I would also like to invite them later maybe, to talk about their points of view, which would be actually very interesting, I think, Francesco, we're supposed to talk tomorrow. So I'm happy to see you here. And I see some other people down there as well. But yeah, basically, I mean, I do like what Balaji has done in the sense that He has given us like, everybody a very clear definition. And I think that's a major reason for the success of his work in this aspect, but I really kind of like I think it's a good place to start off from like, this idea of having a very aligned, like online community with a capacity for collective action. I think it's a very, very good way to start out. But I fundamentally disagree with certain ways in which he portrays this vision, right. I don't think that there's a necessity for territory. I don't think there's a necessity for like a very clear founder figure. And I don't think there's a necessity for diplomatic recognition. So in my sense, I think network steak is more aligned to more crypto anarchists do things where we don't need necessarily diplomatic immunity for protection, but rather really good and strong cryptography. And in this case, now, like also distributed systems. So I mean, there's no real example yet, I always think that companies like Google could easily make networks they happen by adding some some governance and they can easily get diplomatic recognition as well. Or even more like somebody like with big followings, such as the Kardashians, or Taylor Swift, which would be really amazing, because I think it all starts with actually a nation and nation building. So we thought we tend to talk a lot about network states. And I don't really like that word that much. I think it's good to like, give us all a common point of understanding. But I think we have to start more with the cultural aspects of things and why people actually are highly aligned. And why what are they going to use their capacity for collective action for? So I would say the definition is more like an aligned online community with a capacity for collective action, with a clear means of governance and with an economic footprint that is strong enough to actually grant and have some kind of economic leverage to make their presence something real. Because then like you can go into like what territory means in a hostile environment, how to protect that, which is why it gets way too complicated for me and why I also think like microstates as such, it is not also it's also not a good goal for us as a movement I think. Sorry for like the lack of maybe a concise answer to it. But yeah, that's where I'm going to in the moment right now with my thoughts.
always evolving. That's good. Mariana, did you have any agreeing thoughts differing? How do you what is your definition of a network state? Well,
I think we are living a very special time where we see a lot of discomfort in societies of All levels are the global north and global south. And in that context, many things are happening at the same at the same time. On one hand, network states a philosophy to do a state in the virtual realm, and then little by little go down to the, to the earth and have some territory in with the, with the objective of making societies more horizontal prosper. And there's there's a challenge there. But at the same time, other movements or other movements are happening. And I think they are going to converge at some point. Because social processes not very, it's not a, it doesn't happen overnight. So at the same time we are experiencing or we are witnessing, moreover, we are with economic zones that exist for a long time ago, in a traditional way. But now special economic zones are iterating, to Free Cities comes up to startup society concept, where they start from the territorial to the virtual like the other way around. But looking the same objectives, a more prosperity, horizontal societies, a better provision of public goods, and how collective action can bet provide public public goods better than the institutions we know thus far. So I think it's not going to happen very fast. But in the time, in my hypothesis, these movements will convert and will combine and give a some new will show new institutions. And what we have right now is that we are a well, technologies, developing the infrastructure that will allow to design those institutions. So maybe have a specific definition and try to stick to that definition and move according to the book is not a continually to allow us to do something fast or good enough. I think we should have we should adopt some flexibility to the concept and just make experiments and essays on how technology can help us but like blockchain specifically, help us to modify institutions from the inside to the outside, and then these two worlds might convert at some point.
Thanks, Mariana. Michael, did you have anything you wanted to add about your thoughts on network state?
Yeah, so I think I come from a similar point of view, as Santi does. And I'd like to preface so basically, everything that I'm going to say today with I'm not confident or have anything. Yeah. So I think it's all a pretty a pretty fluid playing field. But I I take I take issue with even the from a crypto anarchists perspective, I take issue even with the usage of the word state. Because from the crypto anarchists perspective, you know, we're we're, the primary value is freedom from coercion. And I even feel coerced and using the word state and its meaning of nation state when we're discussing this. And I, and I, and I think that so what I'd like to, to to sort of like postulate as a definition for network state, I'd like to come back to a, you know, a computer science perspective and also a blockchain perspective, which is the state of the network. So what is your state of mind? And what is the state of the network and the consensus rules sets that were that were establishing? And I think that those are that's, that's a much more interesting discussion, rather than you know, duplicating the idea of having a group which has, which has, you know, territorial sort of aspirations and I come also from with that criticism from having been involved in the micro Dacian movement in the 90s, which started out with things like us Ilan, you know, a platform in the in the North Sea, which was at some point became the host for the Pirate Bay. And, and then I was involved with a project called state of sabotage. And we issued passports and attempted to get diplomatic, you know, recognition, and went through that whole process. And we have currently the most recent one Lieber land, which is on a piece of land between Serbia and Croatia, which neither one of them have any territorial jurisdiction over. And so So we've seen that anywhere that a group of people have tried to establish a zone of sovereignty and a zone free from commercial from coercion, which involves property that they're faced with, with the with the same monopoly of force issues. And so I think that the state of mind or this or the state of our networks, is is is actually what's what's revolutionary because it moves in, in another realm, which doesn't involve property and then also doesn't involve the, you know, protection of that of that property. So physical property. And I find I've I struggle with, with with, you know, how it is that you transfer, you know, the unsuitability of, you know, private public key pair representation of value when it actually has a physical thing that can be taken by force. So, yeah, those are those are my thoughts. I'm not confident about them. But that's the direction that my my thoughts are taking.
Yeah, I kind of agree like with fully with some of the things you said, because I've also been reading this really interesting kind of critique on on the libertarian exit. And like just showing historical examples or attempted libertarian exit in the physical space about the Minerva Republic, and things like this, and how fragile they are in like the current like globalised, like deadlock between nations where there is no free unmapped land anymore. So I think that's what we're also trying to do well, from logos perspective on two sides, I think, first of all, to treat fibre spaces, a domain of reality, not only a reality, but also of context. So we have sufficiently strong encryption, and sufficiently strong distributed systems, we can treat cyberspace as a place. So we can actually declare independence in it if we have enough, like strength in numbers and in cryptographic systems. And on the other side, what Marianna is doing, which is actually getting into the whole nation, state global deadlock through specialty special economic zones. So yeah, I fully agree with with what you said, especially at the end.
So I mean, I think I think Marianna, this is actually really a place that you can, you can talk from a position of strength. And and I find I find, you know, especially economic zones to be, you know, very interesting experiment where, where people can can live and work and do jurisdictional arbitrage. But I have a problem with with them being like defined as as nations in and of themselves. So what what are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, that was my point with the flexibility and do not stick to a definition. Because if you use a start from the largest a, a proposal and he's not talking about replicating online and on chain, that the traditional institutions that we have in the status quo i i think that's what many projects are doing and that's just coping on chain what is not a what is providing discomfort right now in the status quo. So in a special economic zones, I think that that's where we need to have more flexibility with the with the definitions and with the words especially can Economic Zones are delimited areas administered by a single body, offering certain incentives, duty free custom procedures, tax reliefs, etc, etc. But now, I think this concept of special zones iterating into the Free Free Cities and startups society concept that is not is precisely not replicating the status quo, where either on chain or or in in physical, inner physical territory, or these three cities are doing is a design and designing new institutions where rules are simple rules are collectively a construct constructed, where you allow innovation and you instead of putting barriers to, to, to produce and to innovate, you law you lower those barriers. And then as a blockchain comes into the into the game, as an institutional technology that allows you to achieve goals that could only be reached with corporate legal structures. But blockchain allows you to do crypto democratic institutions market based provision of public goods in decentralised on chain manner. Financial freedom in a more transparent and accessible way, in a sort of digital common law in with these territories trying to prove that this can be possible in physical territory, that also acts coexists with communities in the virtual air realm. And I think that's what Balaji tries to make to propose a third pole, crypto capital. That is not a trying to repeat the institutions but to to live through new economic and social systems that eventually materialising the territory or maybe not, maybe network states do not materialise, specifically in a territory, or not one territory, but multiple territories, what he calls archipelagos. So I think this is the the flexible point of view we, well, I adopt, no, because if I stick to replicating as a nation, individual with smart contracts, that doesn't allow you to do anything, what can you do with a citizenship in nation XYZ, in a smart contract, that doesn't give you rights to do anything. And then also, if you isolate in a territory, and you want to proclaim some sort of sovereignty, that will only isolate that society because you need to do commerce, you need to trade you need to travel to other countries where you will be not able to transit. So I think that this is the moment to, to prove new institutions in this combination of a crypto sorry, a blockchain as an institutional technology, and territories that are trying to prove that those cases can can work.
Yeah, so I think that one of the other key things that that that I, where I see a conflict and and something that needs resolution, and maybe even just a set of definitions is the question of identity. And you know, in the physical in the physical space, you have a birth certificate, right? And your driver's licence and your passport and your university or your high school diploma and all these different types of state sanctioned documentation that prove who it is that you are. And in the, in the, in the, in the crypto space in the cryptography space, we have just a public private key pair. And so you know, that that, that Fight Club classic thing, you are not your wallet, you know, we have in the we have in the in the crypto space, are you or are you not your public private key pair. And this is also like a really, really valid area to to explore in terms of governance, and the conflict with Sybil attacks, right, you can have multiple public private key pairs, you can have them multiple, you know, voting rights and tokenized governance systems. And then, you know, we have the Sybil attack question on that. And we have incredibly, we've developed over this short period of time where we've had composability on Ethereum and the Dow structure has, has has developed we've been playing around with with all of these systems quite a bit and I don't see any of them actually working. And I don't even see Dows as being anything other than a convenient fiction for three guys to sit around a multisig you know, it's 3am and saying, Are you going to sign transaction 127 And and, you know, so I I really question if cryptographic systems can even can even work institutionally as governance systems because of this, because of this, the fact that you can have more than one identity with a public private key pair.
But I think Mariana has some really good point, I was going to actually lead into something like that, because there is this idea about at least special economic zones and blockchains and providers of institutional services, whereby you have this one stop shop setup that Mariana wants to explain to me that essentially, you would allow for this, like basically the state sanctioned nation state sanctioned legal framework to provide these kinds of services via the special economic zone. So understand, like, on one side, we will have the development of some form of on chain identity that is actually, like provide some sort of value that is not just made up by ourselves, or a problem that will be created that we're trying to solve, but rather, on the other side, there is this kind of more legally sanctioned thing, but I understand that it's also just not so it's more dependable on the nation state system. So there's like this dichotomy there. And I think Marianne has some some good insights on that end
Well, regarding identity, what what we are looking right now what we're seeing right now, it's a traditional nation states offering residences that our digital identities that allow you to work and do business worldwide in a in a way that you can legally sign contracts using a blockchain technology. And this is little by little disrupting even the traditional nation state, because you can move your tax residency and your economic activity to some other country very far from from where you perhaps are living and still do business and an identity identify yourself. And these models of residency are evolving to provide more services than than just doing a business and some identity recognition in the European Union or in some countries to be a to do KYC with that same identity with some institutions are starting to recognise that digital identity. So on one hand, we have nation states, nation states competing for better citizens and for more citizens, and on the other hand, we have people trying to make governments compete for us. So in this special songs in this startup societies, the identity that is produced on chain, it's a sovereign identity that the user handles the information meaning that nobody is the owner of your personal data, your individual and your credentials, but the but the individual itself, and then these songs that are providing this recognition, this identity recognition with some back from the host country like a in this especially specific regimes, these identities recognise then these societies, this startup societies, what they are doing is the opposite trying to come make governments to compete for the for the people. So in this battle of in this competition, is what I think then then the good things and new new institutions might eventually happen. And then from these experiments, it float, permeate or transfer, maybe to the start to school, disrupting the traditional institutions we know right now, but with more empowerment from the citizen perspective, perhaps. So yeah, one on you can have multiple on chain identities, and that really doesn't go to some utility at the end of the day. But what is interesting right now is these models based in infrastructural technology like logos or blockchain technology with privacy with censorship resistance, that allowed you to be sovereign in your data and different mechanisms to authenticate your credentials and verify your identity that that made this institutional competition possible. This was not was not possible. This is not possible with a traditional passport or a digital passport provided by a nation state. Because that is just the status the digital status quo. But now we have these these phenomena, very interesting, a carrying two are converging to, to this digital common law, right? To this third poll, where you bet on new economic and social systems that we don't know how they will materialise in territorial, multiple territories, or a set of multiple Free Cities that eventually contest a nation state due to the capacity of creating wealth, not competing with the g7 with the G five with the G 20. And getting a eventual recognition in diplomatic terms. I don't know if this?
Yeah, no, I mean, I think that that's all very logical, but like, so I mean, the title of our talk is a practical view. And so I'd like to bring a personal sort of, like experience into that in being an American. And, you know, having American citizenship, although I don't have a passport, because it was revoked. I still have citizenship. And as a result of having citizenship, I'm still required to file a tax return every year. You know, America is one of those countries that regardless of where it is that you're resident, or you claim residency, or if you're paying taxes, you still have to tell the American government, you know, and file a tax return every year. And, you know, I mean, there's because of FATCA, and because of AML, and KYC laws that are coming out of the legislation in America, it's incredibly hard to, to, you know, to interact in the, in the physical realm, like, for example, here in Austria, they just refuse to give us they just refuse now to give us bank accounts. And so even if it is, you're living in a third pole realm, which has, you know, or you know, a parallel account, economic system, like we've created with crypto, at some point, you still need to interact with paying, you know, your, your, your rent, or your your power bill, or your or your, you know, telephone bill and all of these things, and, you know, we have incredibly convoluted ways which you can interact with the fiat system. So, so you know, that those systems are not going to go away. And, and, and I come from your point of view, as well Marianna, that, you know, the hope is that these different experimental, you know, startup societies and Free Cities movements and everything, are providing, you know, a more streamlined way for traditional institutions and governments and nation states to eventually adopt. So, we're definitely in a, you know, a pretty long transition phase, I think, and that transition phase has a lot to do, not only with with the level of education, but you know, cultural, cultural barriers and cultural desires for control and surveillance and data mining, and all these things that that we're fighting against. And that's why find the tech stack that logos is working on, which has, you know, data storage, and, you know, privacy messaging protocol, and, you know, all of
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for pieces of the stack that are, you know, trying to ensure, you know, some island of being able to, you know, conduct all of these, these these activities is being you know, one of the most interesting things that's happening in the space and so the network state in and of itself, you know, is less important for me than actually having access to the various levels of the of the technological stack. You know, as we're going through this, this transitionary phase.
Yeah, that is, that is an excellent point as well. I mean, I'm, I have been in crypto long enough to remember that we were actually trying to replace the whole financial system, not just be absorbed by it. So yeah, we were going to like, finish with the banks not wait for them to accept what we what they wanted to from us. But I agree, that's the major thing. So that's why it's actually so interesting that both of you are here like Michael and Maria, like Michael being over more crypto anarchists tradition, and like non physical things, no physical necessity for like living in having network states, but also Mariana coming from the other side of working on a physical integration, because there is actually a touch point between both of them,
right. So I mean, I can't, I can't physically move myself to, to one of the, you know, Free Cities, you know, I can't physically move because I don't have a passport, right. And you need a passport, you know, to somehow travel to Panama, or Uruguay or, you know, any, any of the different ones that are happening in, in the, in the South Americas. And, you know, so there's that, that limitation as well. And so it stays really in a in a very mental realm and inorganic communication and in a data realm for me. And I mean, let's just look at the, the example of Palestinians, I mean, you know, they have literally no possibility to travel and join, you know, a network state, you know, physically, you know, some some physical manifestation of one of these ideas, and even now, even with the, with the telephone, and electrical systems being shut down, they can't participate at all. And so, you know, from the beginning, you know, one of the criticisms about Bitcoin, or cryptocurrencies is, you know, as a digital as a digital form of money is, you know, what happens when all of the infrastructure goes down, that it's reliant upon? And of course, the nerd perspective is, okay, well, I can do a Bitcoin transaction over over traditional radio waves, I can do it over a satellite uplink, you have solar power, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of, you know, technological solutions to any of the, you know, physical Corsham methods that, you know, that we've developed, but they're nowhere available at scale or on a sort of, like, civilizational, or a large group of people to have to have access to it's a it's a constant. It's a constant fight. And, you know, so so so these are the, these are the types of things that I think about on a practical point of view, when we talk about the idea of a state. Yeah. And, and come back to the idea of state of mind and state of the network or state of our culture, when we're discussing these things.
Yeah, I mean, I do understand your you're the outlier cases of not being able to trial, but I do understand also that there is, but it's not
a Now my point is, it's not an outlier case anymore. It's actually you know, I mean, it really depends on which passport you have, which states you can travel to, you know, a large and ever larger increasing portion of the populations movement is restricted, due to all of the interlocking economic and political conflicts that we have with our existing nation states, right. So it's, it's really not an outlier case, I'm just using myself as an example. It's kind of like an extreme. But I mean, you know, if you if you live in Uruguay, or Paraguay, you have a certain number of countries that you can travel to, right now I hear from all of my, my Russian, you know, hacker friends about how it's getting increasingly difficult for them to travel on their Russian passport. Right? And we're not, we're not talking about people who are economically impoverished or anything, right. And now we have, you know, Ukrainians, and a lot of Ukrainians in Europe, and they're a desired group, and our previous migration wave was Syrians, and Iraqis and Afghanis. And they don't have the same privileges under European law because of, you know, various cultural biases and political and economic biases that exist. So I don't really think that it's an outlier case is my point.
Yeah, I was just mentioning like having your passport like revoked because I am fully in the camp of like, not being able to travel everywhere, because of my nationality or anywhere or like almost no countries without a visa. But yeah, I understand. I mean, I fully agree with you, because that's also what we're trying to do with logos. And that's what I think differentiates ourselves from the rest of the projects I've seen, at least for now and in our state, movement or like niche. So like having this like, conception of cyberspace as a place which I talked about at the beginning and actually Creating a fully self sovereign tech stack, which is essentially taking on the dream of the initial if you envision and like Bitcoin as well. So in theory, if we have if you're able to obfuscate the connection enough for like the identity side of things, which is something we're trying to go for, then it's not necessarily to be able to travel. But there is still the physical connection of things related to like the financial system that we were talking about, which is extremely complex, because that's the pressure point. And that's where we're seeing pressure take place, at least in places like the United States, on a very, very violent level, a lot of aggression towards the crypto industry.
So I think that I think that those, those those, those friction points, actually demonstrate how strong of a case and how strong of a position where we're coming from, you know, I've kind of like blown away that it's happened as fast as happened. But, you know, crypto as a, as a cryptography, as a movement, as implemented in the code that we have deployed, is literally now a world, you know, is an international actor on the world stage, I mean, nation states are being forced to adapt to, you know, the, the reality of what cryptographic Security provides for people to be able to, you know, operate outside of us, you know, nation state approval, it's pretty amazing. I mean, Jared mentioned in his talk in Prague, or both times, when he spoke in Prague a couple of weeks ago, how at the, you know, at the peak of our of value, we we captured $3 trillion worth of worth of capital. And if you look at the value now, it's, you know, a little bit over over a trillion. And that puts, you know, crypto currencies in, you know, the, either the top 10 or the top five of global currencies. And I guess the criticism that, or at least the hope that Jared is coming from, no pun intended, but pun intended, is that we use the capital more efficiently than we have been doing with all of this, this casino based, you know, get rich, you know, VC sort sort of mentality. And so the question really becomes, you know, what are we doing with this, with this economic power that we've unleashed? Since since the Bitcoin white paper was released? And these things are, you know, taking a bet they've made huge steps and have accomplished so much in a short period of time, since we've had composability. With with the Etherium. We're doing these things.
Yeah, I agree. It's super important topic. Yeah, I was gonna ask question, maybe if it was, I am very curious about what the audience thinks. And maybe we can get some opinions. I know some people there who have a very good and clear thoughts about things. So
yeah, so raise your hand if you'd like to come up on stage we can bring you up on stage. I think I think Mark even sent electively mod has some some good things to say about, you know, from the Marxist perspective on how it is that software is implemented, you know, in these situations, so, I see a number of people here as well, that I know would like to, to join the discussion.
Yeah, we've got a web three, D three V. Three.
Thank you for letting me thank you for looking at the question. And thank you for, you know, for for interesting thoughts. I just thought like, Don't you guys think that land sovereignty is paramount. And I think this is getting like increasingly clear, like, just today, I think, or yesterday, Senator Warren send letter that crypto supported terrorists, like I build in a space, it's just all the time constantly, like in many European countries that will even open a bank account for me, because my software consultancy company, what happened to contracting and one of the clients was one of the biggest, most regulated companies in the US like, as regulated as it gets. So like, it's just increasingly, you know, they are going after Krypton, there is no, no, no, no two ways about it. So I think this one is going to be paramount, the networks that that's why I'm such a huge fan of networks that it is paramount because I think there is a very good chance they will manage to bring it to the point like yeah, we're going to have some crypto industry, but everything is going to be KYC. David is it's basically going to be like banking, but this time on blockchain, but you're going to have all the limitations that you have with current banking. So I think and it's 1/3 and second thought was like, you know, we have like a million millions people crossing the Mediterranean to Europe. Yeah, millions people crossing the US southern border. If you really want to get to Panama, or you know, what is in Honduras? prospera? You can you can widow with our passport, typically people do it by the millions. That's all.
Yeah, so So let's see. So let me let me unpack the first part of it. I think it's I think it's pretty clear that Ethereum and Bitcoin have been captured, they are going to become part of the existence status quo. And it's pretty clear, as soon as the ETF is is is approved, which everybody's, you know, waiting for, for the price to go up. I mean, basically, Bitcoin as the people's money is just another macro commodity, and the liquidity will remain so thin, that value will fluctuate based on what it is we've already seen, we've already we already have examinate, we already have examples of that trend. All of the cbdc products and things like that are being either done on on Aetherium or on Solana. So they've gotten they've gotten away from from private blockchains and kind of accepted the the idea of having a public ledger. And so we're gonna see technological development in that way. And so the Ethereum blockchain and other commodity chains are definitely become part of the existing financial and identity management system. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But I think that I think that the problem is, is that we, we are broken at the base layer, and that's the privacy layer. And that's, you know, I mean, we have, we have public Ledger's where everything is visible. And, and these are very, very dangerous things about having all of your, you know, all of your, your content being on chain. And, you know, this is where we get into the discussion about how much data do we does each individual need to actually have on chain for us to have a, you know, a record of, of culture and civilization of, of data that can't be censored? I really question how much we actually want to be having on chain. And this is why so personally, for me, the projects that are most interesting in the space are privacy oriented ones like dark five, from Amir Taki, where they're building from from the ground up, they're collaborating with logos as well. Also nem project from from Harry help, and, you know, we're seeing a huge explosion in next generation communications technologies, which are abandoning the blockchain for the for securing data, and are using public private key pair cryptography to allow us to ephemerally transact with each other. So you have a granular, you know, trust model for for peer to peer systems. So so so that's where the hope is for me as in these in these technologies, and also the way that the Logos is going about it. As far as the, again, the territoriality space for me is a problem. Because essentially, the reason why the green haired Goblin, also known as the US dollar is king is because there is, you know, the United States military in 160 President and 160 countries across the planet. And so the security of the dollar is is based on on territoriality. And I think if we're going to come back to the idea of a network state, again, state of mind and state of the network, that we want to move away from the era the idea of territoriality because you then have to protect and enforce that territoriality and this is also why it is that I'm not a Bitcoin maximalist or an Aetherium maximalist is because I don't want to have 111 coin to rule them all. I don't want to have one consensus rule set that's determines all of my behaviour. What I want is to be able to move in and out of consensus rule sets as frictionlessly as possible and technologically that's happening now that those bridges are happening so for me, territoriality is still when we talk about network states is just totally problematic because you're entering into the same you know, threat modelling and and and you know, interpersonal and intercultural communication problems that we that we see with existing nation states and If that's a broad enough answer or a granular enough answer for you,
thank you for your answer. Thank you for your answer. Yeah.
I'm curious what Mariana has to say about that question.
Yeah, I think what we well, it's, it's difficult to, to have a practical example right now on how these things will evolve. We don't know yet. We don't know yet. But what I think is that we will have what 10 What if this infrastructure like logos and other network state technology for any fabric of the society with is going to enhance is not in the national service, we have now in a decentralised cryptosystem. Where effectively, you don't need to rely on one cryptocurrency, what makes this what makes sense is to have multiple currencies, where you can move from one to the other. In this in this collaborative networks, so I and I will go back to what you were saying, Michael, the difficulties of for example, moving with with a passport, the banking system, and so on. I think the pieces are emerging, and eventually they will eat, they will connect, for example, if you have if you have the possibility to do smart legal contracts and make agreements between two two parks. And then if there is a dispute you have on chain, this board resolution of a alternatives known instead of traditional courts that are efficient and cheap, and provide fair results. And then you have the possibility to do a business in one of these network states. Let's don't discuss right now if they are we're taller in a territory, okay? I mean, these pieces are, are under development are ongoing know in blockchain. And then when they start connecting, and then these new the startup societies connect them all, in a competitive a monetary fashion where you can choose the currency you want to use or that you want to accept as a merchant, whatever the case may be, then you have this jurisdictional competition. It challenging the status quo by proving that this is actually functioning and it functions for a win it functions for for, for a massively for a lot of people, then it's the moment where traditional jurisdictions will face this competition. And and my hypothesis is that this eventually disrupts and allows a like you were saying, You are not the outlier. Now, this is like a generalised case, those generalised cases that are in discomfort right now have these new tools and collective instruments to challenge these through new sorts of jurisdictional competitions. So right now, we don't have the answer for all the obstacles. But I am very
well, I think that we have a lot of functioning stuff, actually. I mean, you know, there's, there's hundreds of 1000 of us digital nomads, right. That all right, that are that are travelling around using and bridging between various currencies and various governance systems. You know, we have public goods projects, we have, you know, get coin we have giveth, we have common stack. I mean, there's so many technologies out there allowing us to do all of these, you know, disparate things and hundreds of 1000s maybe even millions of people actually living concurrently on them and moving into the future. So I Yeah, and that's always I've always been, I prefer a reformed state, that no state right. And these systems are forcing states to a nation states to adopt individual forms and there is competition. You know, we see it. Yeah, I'm definitely positive about it.
Yeah, we're seeing that competition and nation countries with this residency that allow you that are given passports Due to travel across many countries, more countries will abide to those competitions due to that competition. And then little by little these barriers are are going down. Now, even in the United States, we have this startup societies, we have this cartel WA, startup society in Delaware, where they are creating initiatives, legal initiatives, and prove they work and then expand to the rest of the lower. So yeah, I mean, so
like the lot like the Lowry, right, which is allows you to establish, you know, a Dow, and also a Delaware corporation or a Nevada Corporation, and we're already seeing the movement of linking, you know, on chain smart contracts with, with their, their their pairs in the real space. And we have a huge technological stack. Right.
Right, right. And what do we need that is this type of technology that gives you privacy, that gives you sovereignty over your data, that allows you to share what you want to share and hide what do not share to some authority, whatever, what you don't need them to know, to see, etcetera, etcetera. As of now, this is possible, I think, to date two years ago, we couldn't do that now. But now, digital nomadism nomadism is becoming a rule more than an exception. Yeah.
I just want to interject quickly, because I see somebody else who's the speaker, but I see a CoCo network state who we know about their existence, asking a question in texts, talking about focusing on focus on the solution and a concrete action plan, how to roll out logos ASABE start onboarding humanity. The issues we are sitting on have been discussed for 10 plus years problem understood rollout. That's the crux, what will be the first real world use case? So yeah, just to clarify on that, like, Lois is building very, very base layer technology. So I think what we're doing can be better expressed in many cases, research in distributed systems and cryptography, to be able to create a fully decentralised privacy preserving tech stack, that is allows people and communities to live according to their own standards free from capture. This includes governance, this includes finance, this includes identity systems. So the rollout, the first real world use case, I would say would be identity, any kind of public institution that you can imagine, but the key difference is that it can evolve free from capture, in a different way than what has taken place with Bitcoin or Aetherium, for example, because it's focused on being private at the base layer, which neither Bitcoin or Aetherium are, which is a key flaw in the architecture. So I think that just to be clear with that the field first real world use cases offering public services, and public institutions, but with this key difference that I just mentioned.
So I mean, you know, we see that I mean, if you want to be private at this point, in terms of money, Mineiro is probably is pretty solidly the best one at the moment, there's a pretty much a consensus amongst, you know, privacy, crypto anarchists and that that manera is the most private at that at the moment. And in terms of communication, you know, we do have pretty private systems I mean, you know, walk is an amazing development, you know, step up from whisper which was, which was original and shout out really to the back to pee crowd and crew, man, you guys are awesome, the work that you've been doing. I remember when we sat down in in Prague in 2000, and DEF CON four and started talking about these things about separating out whisper and building a new protocol. And the work you guys have done over these years are just are just amazing. You know, so I mean, you status, I mean, yes, it has its issues and whatever. But if you want to have, you know, a strong privacy and a good gossip network, you can use it status also dark fires building, they have a an awesome private IRC client, and, you know, dark fire going back to the basics of protocols that we already have, and just and just adding additional pieces onto, onto the on, you know, more modernised versions of existing protocols. So I mean, concrete path forward, I think it's pretty clear that there's a lot of technologies being built to provide these solutions. Again, so what's the what's the name of ens So I mean, DNS is is an amazing standard, and almost all blockchains offer some some form of digital identity with with their domain, we have handshake, you know, so the the problem lies more in the fact that humans are social animals and we want to share all the points of contact with which people can interact with us and things like Link tree are very, very common, right you here's my, you know, you can you can connect with me on telegram you can, here's my ens address, right? Soon, you're going to be able to accept to you're going to be able to pay for telephone data plans using your DNS address, using a theory M or whatever currency and also getting called on your ens address. And so I think that we're again, we're in this transitionary period, where we've learned a lot from what it is that we've deployed over the last 15 years. And there's a whole nother generation of stuff. That's that's just, you know, is is in test net phases, and in various levels of deployment. And five years from now the landscape is going to look totally, totally different, I think with with the tech stack and what you're going to be unable to to do.
Well, we've hit our one hour mark. So there any last thoughts from our speakers? Before we wrap up just
like the gear from if we nobody's in a hurry? I would like to hear from the speaker in the audience who's being promoted as a speaker who had a question maybe?
Do we do we have a heart? Do we have a hard limit? Because there's not really any reason why we can't continue?
around then? Yeah, totally. So yeah, D fern. There you either.
Oh, hello. Yeah. Um, my question was kind of related to deepen, you know, decentralised fiscal infrastructure networks and how they can help solve some of these, you know, problems related to internet access, or I remember swarm dot City, one of their first ideas was to have kind of a decentralised Uber. So I was wondering if you guys had he had any interesting projects that you guys were looking at, in that kind of space where he could incentivize physical infrastructure?
Yeah. So the first one that springs to mind is Althea network, Al T H, E, a network, and they've been around for quite a number of years, and provide, you know, local mesh networks and have tokenized economics for how it is that you share your bandwidth. They have huge deployments in America. In rural areas, they have large deployments in South America. So I would definitely be looking at Althea. And there's a number of ones out there actually, if you just do a key, a keyword search, you know, for your area of interest, you know, that you'll find a number of network technologies that are running based on cryptography and have tokenized economic systems where the routers communicate with each other, and, you know, charge for that access, and all those sort of things. So that stuff is all bubbling out, you know, very, very quickly. And, you know, again, look to the I hate the word Global South, I hate the word. You know, Third World, I find it to be such a NEO colonialist, privileged, you know, set of terminology. But I think that most of the development that we're going to be seeing happening in in cryptographic systems and cryptographic technologies are coming out of South America, and Africa and India and in in disadvantaged, previously disadvantaged nations. And the reason for that is that they haven't had the functioning infrastructure that we've had in the, you know, in the Global North or in the West, right. So they're not burdened by the legacy, economic interest and infrastructure. And just because it was never worth it to build out for those people, right. And so we're seeing a huge amount of development happening in those areas and companies and projects being founded and formed and I, they're actually my great hope to wipe, you know, the American exceptionalism off of the face of the fucking planet, to be honest, say, as an American?
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And like, observation, basically. But I do think like, we are working on stuff related to that in logos. We have an innovation team that actually has direct connections to swarm city. And way more than you think, actually, and those ideas have been discussed extensively, and we have them they're building prototypes. I can't really talk about that, but there are some prototypes floating around you go in that line and that are also extremely interesting. So yeah, stay tuned. So I guess
the technologically the great challenge is is, is developing our own chips. Right. So, I mean, we you see this in the hardware wallet space where, you know, people are talking about, you know, how open source and how auditable are the are the are the wallet, or the wallets. And then it comes down to the discussion of the secure element. And how many chip manufacturers there are, and the fact that none of those things are completely 100%. auditable. So, you know, the technological challenge, really, for secure communications and and open distributed systems is also a technological one, in terms of the hardware that we're using. And we're seeing, you know, more and more developments happening in those areas where where the technology is all auditable. And, and and more secure.
I have a, I have a phrase of what you said. Michael, I used to say to myself, it's the first time in the public that blockchain has a lot of problems to solve in, in in the south No, like I live in, in Latin America. And I say, Well, what's going on due to currency in the West is like, people are looking for a problem to use it. So yeah, I agree problem
in solution, right. Sorry, solution is in search of a problem.
Solution, and they are searching for a problem. Whereas in Latin America, this technology solves most of solves problems. And I have another an anecdote yesterday. From person in Argentina, I don't know, I don't know even her name. And it is a woman. But a, someone in Ecuador that knows me. asked me if I could exchange a stable coin for for some other for fiat currency, such that this person could buy a flight ticket to fly the flight. Don't know the conditions of this person and why she couldn't buy the ticket directly using Argentinian pesos. Right. But this just happened in in less than 10 minutes. And she's got her flight ticket. So in maybe she couldn't bite in it for some reasons, I don't know. But this technology allowed allowed her to go out of the country. Right? If that was the thing she was wanting to do. And with those capital controls that are established in in some countries, well, it was not a an obstacle to, to buy a ticket and, and move No. So that's why I'm very, very, I have a lot of hope, in this technology that collectivities eventually will, will empower and find ways to convince
it is now it already isn't. It's just not equally distributed, equally implemented, but it's available and more and more people are getting at it. But I guess like the the main reason why I am hopeful for for this set of technologies is and eventually winning. Yeah. And becoming, you know, a, you know, a much more equal status quo is governments have not succeeded in stopping drugs, stopping prostitution, stopping weapons sales, right. So crypto cannot be turned off or banned or anything just because of the state of the distribution of the technology. Right now, unless, you know, literally, the electricity and the internet is turned off all over the world, it's not going to happen because society needs it to function. And so with the cryptographic security that we have, with public private key pair technology, you know, I mean, we're going to do nothing but but when more and more users and because it actually works. And simultaneously what's happening is the existing institutions, the existing financial systems, let's not talk about inflation or any any of that, you know, side of it or anything, but literally the world is slowly not functioning anymore. It's become so regulated and so complex, and so good. Ever been so surveilled? That it's literally imploding from its own inconsistencies. And so, that's on one side. My hope. My fear is that we're not far enough with functional scalable systems. When it is that you know what's existing is is not functioning anymore. Yeah.
I agree with you, Michael.
Hi guys. I've been I've been, I've been listening to you guys with much respect. Hi, logos. Hi, Doctor, doctor. I'm just gonna call your doctor. Hi, Michael. Hi, everyone. Hi, Mariana. Mariana is, you know, the queen. Um, I think, Michael to continue to, to talk about the decentralisation system. It's I've been reading Paul bronze memorandums and the fifth memorandum it says distributed network Ledger's. So, imagine like a carbon chain. So decentralisation is imagine as a infra graphical way to say like, decentralise is still is a centralization. It's not decentralisation, but distributed network ledger. It's connecting with each other in a way that you don't need any centralise. You don't need any governance, data governance, you don't need any digital physical identity. You're just all helping each other. So I just want to be a speaker to give that information out. distributed network Ledger's. If you search in Google, Paul Baran, or I can pin Tweet it to you guys. It's been so inspirational. Mathematically speaking, Chemically speaking, physically speaking, quantum Network Computing, quantum speaking, quantum mechanical speaking. Since we are social animals, as Michael says, I agree. we're social creatures. We all help have to help each other. So Paul Braun says, inclusion plus diversity equals innovation. It's very inspiring.
Certainly. I mean, so the essential argument that I'm making is that decentralisation is just a tool and not the ultimate goal. Right? And that we've, you know, focused on that a lot. But the reality is, is that we have distributed systems, right? That that that that is it more true than we have decentralised systems,
it can be a learning curve for all of us. Yeah, I mean, you you do it's a paradigm shifting, you go step by step, you don't skip the set steps, because you will fall down.
I mean, it's so high up too fast, you will go so down too fast, you will just, you know, smash the ground. I think this is a learning curve. I mean, I'm looking at positively I'm sorry.
I think you should look at it positively. Again. You know, two things. When I when I started speaking, I said I was born in 63. Right. So I'm, I'm, I'm six yay. Right? And and the vast majority of the people that I interact with in the space are in their early 30s and early 20s. And early and mid 20s. Yeah, it's 32.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So like,
the world that you're gonna be living into is much different than the world that I've lived into at this far
is the world that you created is the world that we're living. So everybody's way upon leaving each other's world like, if there was no Michael, there will be no Momochi or there will be no Marriott. I'm not really sure about the ages, but what you had created, and what you taught us as, as a person that was born in 1963, is you You're our mentor, but it's
really, for me growing into this actually because I really still feel like a teenager. And then I'm participating in this community. I'm always like, God, these people are so smart and God they know So much more than me. And God, I'm learning so much. I still feel like I'm in school. And then younger people, like, oh, but you know so much, you know, it's the imposter syndrome sort of sort of thing. But it's really
my weaknesses, my weaknesses, your strengths. So like we always complete each other. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
All right. A good note, we just, we have run out of time. Some are speakers and participants, we've got a little bit over. So we are going to have to, to end this here. Yeah, just wanted to marry honour. Santiago. If you had any last thoughts before we we wrap this up?
Yes, I will. I just want to close a saying that this is just the beginning, where we have amazing things to see in the next years. Things are building their new institutions on chain are ongoing in smart contract platforms. And the best is yet to come. I'm sure of that.
Yeah, I'm also pretty much an optimist. I think blockchain technology and crypto was born for this moment. So I think it's, it's what's coming into what's next. And there's a lot of things converging into what we're doing that I think will seem super obvious once they happen. I mean, there's a lot of work to do, obviously, we shouldn't like rest on our laurels kind of but the times are begging for what we're doing. So I think we're at the right moment at the right time. So I'm very optimistic about that. Yeah, just thank you, everybody. I saw some really good questions on the threads. I'll try and answer like in text. So I have to go now. So nice talking to you.
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely an optimist to, you know, to the core for the future. And I think that it's all still so early. Just remember, we're such a small, small, small minority of people that are, you know, aware of this stuff and are working in it, but we're growing all the time. And because of permissionless, open source software development standards, man, there's so much happening and so much going to happen. There's there's nothing but but reason for hope and positivity for the space. And, yeah, that's why I'm like 100% supporter of logos because they're, they're, you know, right there at the core of that, you know, homeboys Yeah, thank you guys, everybody for tuning in and giving us the space to babble at you with our ideas.
Thank you for being here. Thanks to our speakers and all of our listeners. This space happens every two weeks. So hopefully you will be joining us again for our next subject matter our next topic. I don't know what it is yet, but I'm sure it'll be a good one again, so
let us know if you want something discussed. Like we're open to suggestions and we want to be also a place where all these discussions can happen. So just let us know. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, guys. Ciao, ciao. Ciao.
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