I've always been going against the grain to bring these values into a traditional architecture practice. Hello, and
welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard. Please join me today in welcoming Michelle Fenton who is a past Business of Architecture client. She's a brilliant architect who specializes in crafting spaces that enhance happiness, well being a sense of belonging. Michelle is committed to the idea that our environment significantly impacts our lives, drawing inspiration from diverse cultures, and sustainability to create designs that foster comfort and joy. As the founder of core architectural interiors, and the host of The Happy Tech Show podcast. Michelle advocates for the inclusive human centered design that transforms physical spaces into catalysts for personal fulfillment and community wellbeing. Michelle is based in Vancouver, and resides in the unseeded territories of the Coast Salish peoples, she continues to inspire change in how we experience the spaces around us. This was a fascinating conversation. Always enjoy my topics with Michelle. She's an incredibly thoughtful, forward thinking architect. And some of the things that we discussed was Cora's innovative business model and how they have moved away from traditional architectural services, and have invented new forms of consulting and strategic visioneering. packages. We talked about different ways to help curate and direct clients vision, and how you can do that as an architect. And we also spoke about the high level, visionary and strategic skill sets that the architect has that can be applied to our clients, business agendas, and their own ideas for where their organizations are want to be going. And we also talk about other things such as B Corp, certification, and the importance of making sure that you're running a business in alignment with your values. So loads of gold here, sit back, relax and enjoy Michelle Fenton. This podcast is produced by Business of Architecture, a leading business consultancy for architects and design professionals. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it without the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner, or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 Engage listeners each month interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support at business of architecture.com. Michelle, what a pleasure to have this conversation with you on the podcast. Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm great, Ryan, thank you. Likewise, it's great to see you.
I know it's very early there. And I appreciate you making the effort to come on the show. And obviously we've known each other for a long time. And we've had many conversations about your your business, you're the founder of core architecture and interiors. Really, I know that you kind of go by the moniker of being Placemakers. And I think sometimes we like to, and it's a it's a really inspiring business model that you guys have socially driven. I know you guys recently have become B Corp certified, which is no easy thing to accomplish, and really does kind of demarcate you as being people or a firm that really walks the talk, if you like and kind of demonstrates the kind of values that you stand for your work moves into various sectors, green energy education, working with indigenous peoples and and land. Very interesting and fascinating, kind of client base that you have. And also we're talking a little bit more about the business model that you've adopted. But perhaps we can just talk. Well, we'll start the conversation by What does Cora mean?
Well, Cora is as came from a Greek word, which symbolizes the chorus at play of tragedy specifically, and the purpose Because of the chorus at the end, the tragedy was to offer the audience a cathartic effect, when things get really tense and, and, and sad. And so I thought what, what a great name for an organization that also wants to create a space for that cathartic healing kind of effect. And honestly, it just came to me, I wasn't in search of it, I was in search of a name. And it just popped into my awareness. And it just everything just moved from there. I had done a thesis in in in university, and studied the idea of Korra. And so I think there was a there's a bit of a thought of marinating in the back of my mind, all of those years and when I when I thought about found finding Cora, architecture and interiors, the word just it just makes sense. Love it.
How long you guys been going for?
This will be our sixth year as Cora I was formally partner and founder of CDB architects before that, and groundswell architects before that yet. But Cora feels like the real me. You know, you go through these evolutions, and Cora feels like we've hit on something that was really profound and really meaningful. And
what was the impetus for setting up this, this firm, like, if you were already in a, you know, kind of strong high positions in other organizations, that's quite a, that's quite a departure or quite a career shift, or a difficult decision anyway,
it was difficult, because I'm keen on my whole education, my whole career, you're taught to be quote, unquote, an architect, and whatever that means you have a firm, you do buildings, you do that sort of thing. But at a certain point, you have to, well, a certain, like, personal point in my life, I came to a moment where I had to have a self check in and realize that that wasn't the path that made me happy. That wasn't the path that I was most joyful. I love design, and I love being an architect and building buildings. But it wasn't really something I was passionate about anymore. It wasn't really something that really brought me a lot of joy. So you know, you get to a certain age in life, and these things become part of the journey to rethink. And to reimagine yourself and think about like, what, what do I want to leave behind? In the end, and a building wasn't enough? You know, buildings weren't enough. I wanted to leave more. So
and you were active in education previously, right? Are you still are
I use? Yes, I did. Oh, we're going up, I can talk a whole lot about that. Education of architects. But yes, I did teach for a short stint at my alma mater, University of Waterloo studio there. So, and I've always been really, I always think education is such a powerful tool, not just to teach you how to, you know, contribute to society, but more importantly, how to how to really take control of your life, how to really rethink your purpose, and what the gifts you have, and how you can put that to use. So the opportunity to teach young architects was really, really wonderful. And it opened up a whole other group of ideas for me, which maybe there's another career there, who knows, but I'd love to see architects get taught differently.
I think it's interesting as well, because in your practice, there is, you know, you can tell that there's an interest in the function of the architect, and what architects do and how they can contribute in different intelligent ways when just before we hit record with both talking about, you know, whilst the things we might do on a daily basis might not be your traditional buildings, it's still architecture. Absolutely. And, and there's a kind of difference between the, the practice of architecture in terms of its professional sense of construction science, and codes and knowledge, and then the discipline or the thinking like an architect, which is actually really, really useful and much more broadly applied, and also has an incredible amount of possibility in terms of business. Perhaps you could talk a little bit about the influence of education and the pedagogy of an architect on your practice on Quora, and, and kind of use that to illustrate how you've moved away from traditional architectural services.
Yeah, Um, well, I mean, perhaps different schools teach differently. But the school I went to was, I mean, to be fair was very focused on the practice of architecture, we had a very robust Co Op, Co Op program, which really encouraged students to go out and work in the, in the field. But it also had a really huge focus on cultural history. And I think that the two of those together have had a really important impact on me, because they saw the role of the architect in the traditional way. Yes, you have to build a building, yes, you have to know building science and code and typology. But what I what I really thought was interesting was the cultural impact on the building the cultural impact on those technologies, and the Hume the humanity of a building the humanity of the built environment. And so I guess I did the technical stuff, as you have to do. But I was really that that whole humanity, the impact of it, why build a building? And who are you building a building for really just disturbed me in the Buddhist sense? Cause disturbance, and as you know, disturbance is a good thing. It can be a good thing. And so you go on a quest, you get disturbed, and you go on a quest, right? Yeah. And, and the quest led me to Quora, the quest led me to rethink what not just traditional architecture can be, or how to expand that idea of a traditional architect, but more importantly, the role of the architect and society, in in creating something for everyone. My focus particularly is on happiness. And so where, where I landed with this intersection of technology and science, and the humanity of it was, I saw this great quote, and I had done a really interesting talk on happiness. The Dalai Lama believes that it is or it is our right to be happy, it is our birthright to be happy. And so I thought, Well, why not? Why not pursue that? Why not take that disturbance and try to see where it leads. And so Cora was formed with this idea that we've got the technical chops, why don't we use that and apply that? See if we can build into the built environment? Happiness, inclusion? belonging? Yeah. And so the journey started, still ongoing, but it's been, it's been a joyful journey.
That's very, it's a very kind of quite profound, actually, like vision for what architecture can do and its its power, and quite reflective in making sure that that's the that's the function of what are the projects that we're doing? Why did it? Why did that start to influence you in the sense of not doing traditional buildings, but then broadening the conversation into say, what we call placemaking? Yeah,
well, the placemaking was always there in the buildings. But what I realized is that as I was getting older, there's not that many years left, and how can I have the biggest impact? And when I thought about how long it took to do a building, I didn't have many buildings left in, in my future. So I thought, well, what if I took a zoom out. And instead of building one building, I influenced all the buildings, I had, I had the ability to bring to the awareness of the architecture practice, this way of thinking about architecture, this sort of a more strategic objective, a strategic lens, on architecture, and how we design and how we build. And so I thought about it in from that very pragmatic sense to be honest, and figured, well, with the years I have left, the the best use highest best use of my time, is to create a practice create a rigor, that looks at architecture from a highest strategic level, and create design standards and design typologies that impact the built environment, because I could keep doing one building at a time and it's just not enough time. Yeah. So that's, it was very pragmatic.
It's kind of more impactful, in a way. Yes. Yes. You're you're kind of setting up you're influencing and setting up the parameters for architecture to be facilitated within and kind of, you know, you're getting those right, then it's going to be beneficial to a kind of wider audience and there's more correct more longevity to it if you like,
yeah, yes, and you use the word facilitated. And I really like that word, because part of what's really important, and I hope, I hope we are able to, to articulate it really clearly, is that we are not taking my idea of architecture, we really, we think it's really important to take our idea of what we need, and to build a foundation of the built environment from that. And so what I mean by that a huge part of our practice is community engagement and stakeholder engagement, and to to design standards of building and and that are appropriate to the communities that we're building within and building for. And so I think that this is the approach that I think does distinguish the role of the architect in a way and we flipped the script a little bit where the what do you call it the preliminary sketch, the preliminary vision of the building, does not come from the architect that comes from community. So that gives me a great amount of joy even just saying that, you know, I think wouldn't it be nice if we built buildings for people?
Yeah, absolutely. So in
the truest sense of the word, you know, I think most architects desire to build buildings for people, but the way we are traditionally, the way we traditionally practice, the burden of mediation comes from the architect. And, and, and comes through our lived experience. And so I just wanted to reiterate that, that lived experiences singular voice, and I think it's time to think about that lived experience as a chorus in a way, going back to the core core idea, how does that, you know?
Well, it well, it's very, it's quite a poetic way of thinking about it. And really, what we're starting to lean into here was a conversation about agency, and being able to give people a voice in shaping their environment and the built environment. And being being a bridge to that. And we live in an interesting time now, where, you know, whilst we have still have the, the traditional human organizations of cities and countries, there are now businesses and old institutions that almost operate like kind of mini countries or regions within themselves that are massively impactful when you have people who never leave them, for example, you can be in those kinds of communities or facilities for for a long period of time, when you're talking about community engagement and stakeholder engagement. What does that look like on a kind of day to day real basis with the sorts of clients that you're working with? And perhaps you can give us an example of the kinds of clients that you work with? And what is the what's the dialogue that you're kind of encouraging?
Yes. Well, I mean, you listed a diverse group of clients at the top of this chat, and the, when you when you put the clients into those boxes, they it does seem diverse. But what the common thread is, throughout all of our clients is the search for belonging, the search for, for Being Well, being healed. And having that sort of an approach that, you know, I heard the other day of this great exercise where a community building exercise where everyone gets into a circle, shoulder, shoulder kids, older people, and everyone sits down at the same time. And even though like a giant man is being held up by a child, and think about that
for a minute, right, they're all sitting on each other's knees, getting
on each other's nerves, but because they're sitting together, shoulder to shoulder, or standing shoulder to shoulder, and sitting together, everyone stands up, regardless of their ability, regardless of their strengths, regardless of their size. That is what community engagement brings. It's for everyone to be able to at the beginning of a project, we're not even talking about design is to see how their experience their life is critical to the outcome in the end. And so it is it is about building belonging and building that sense of you're going to be held, you're going to be held by the community, you're going to be helped by the project. You'll see yourself in it in some small way, or some big way, but at least in some way. And so that's the analogy of I love that, that that story about the the community building exercise, because I think that's what we're trying to do, or what we're doing is that we're taking out the word where we're taking out that expectation that one person brings, brings the solution. We are, we're trying to establish a collective wisdom that helps form not just a sense of community, but the building in the end, or the landscape in the end, or the campus plan in the end. And so yes, we have communities that are indigenous communities, we have university clients, we have workplace clients. We have community clients who are marginalized, that we're trying to bring in to understand how their experiences as rich and beautiful as anyone else's. But it all comes down to that image of everyone sitting down together, and being held in that space, and being held by the project in the end. It doesn't, it doesn't nullify the fact that I'm an architect, and I have technical and code responsibilities, responsibilities. That's my contribution. When I sit down, I'm being held by what I am holding, I hold that responsibility of the technical aspect of it. But I'm not sitting down by myself in the middle of the circle, I'm part of that circle.
Well, how does a client know? Or assess when they are ready to engage with this kind of conversation? What kinds of things might they be dealing with? That would be a trigger point, if you'd like to call into Cora? Or how to how do they find out about you and what it is that you're providing? Well,
that's really interesting. And perhaps I could do a better job at marketing. But what happens is that clients come to us and say, we need an architect to solve this problem, right? And I say, Well, tell me more about the problem. And they're like, well, we need to put, we need to put our seniors in a place. Because the community is really, they're feeling really threatening, they're feeling really alone. And so we want to build a building and make sure that there's a good buffer of security around the building. And I say, Okay, hang on a second. But is that going to solve this problem when the elders leave the building, or come to the building? And so everyone's like, Oh, well, and so the idea of solving the problem through a singular lens is start starts the conversation and starts to open up the conversation. And in that, there's no single lens in how you solve a problem problems are systemic problems aren't, let's build a building and it will be solved. We have to solve the system that's imposing the issue and causing the problem. And so that's how I see architecture, right? I see it as a series of systems, that if something is broken in that system, or a few things are broken in that system, we have to address the system, the building alone is not going to solve the problem, the building is a resultant, of looking at the system, looking at all of the systems and how they interplay. And the building becomes the demarcation of you dealing with the systemic issue.
So does this mean then that you become a kind of facilitator or an adviser to the client, as they kind of build out their own building team, for example? Yes,
often, often, I would say we go backwards a little bit, which clients are very hesitant to do, because I think it's important again, when you when you work with indigenous communities, you learned this and you feel comfortable in not going back and re examining in that slow way. When you work with capitalist and more of a colonial structure or Western structure, client, it becomes very anxious for them to go back when we are able to map out the progress of a project.
Interesting. Yes, yes.
It's, it's, I mean, we learned so much from our clients, every client is just a teaching moment for me anyways. But the the ability to demonstrate that by going back and examining this, you are leaving, you're not only advancing the project and the project charter, but you're leaving. The imprint of that work. Makes everything in the future of that project and the future of your organization run more smoothly, more effectively, more efficiently. And some clients Those are words that It doesn't matter to them, but a lot of our clients, effective operations efficient operations become a really that's that's a, that's a key strategic indicator, a key performance indicator. So we're able to map that out and show them that going back a little bit, or going back a lot does leapfrog you in a way to the things you want to do in the end, because in the end, no one wants to build a building. People want to solve the problem. You take the take the building is the way to solve the problem. And sometimes it is, but no one wants, no one says, Hey, I have a problem. Let's build a building. If you feel like we have a problem, what can we do? Well, we have a piece of land, maybe this building can help by by addressing the problem, the building will serve you better because the building is there to solve the system. The problem, you're having two buildings, not they're just ending, you put a monument up. Sure, yeah, it's a different kind of building. But the building should solve your your system systemic problems, your buildings should solve your operational problems, the buildings should solve your community cohesion problems. That's the job of the building. And so to not address the problem is just well,
this is really interesting, because it actually is facilitating a lot of value for where the architect architect can be contributing, because so many times we see institutional clients, they've had this, they've had a conversation about something to do with their physical assets. And it might just be brought down to a base level of, you know, of kind of built in building maintenance, management and improvement. And they might have a conversation with some finance people, their accountants, maybe where they development team, some building managers, and then they've created the brief already. And then they go and find an architect to fit into the brief. And then we have this ridiculous procurement system, where it's very vulnerable to the client, just making a decision purely based on price. And then the architects are kind of left in the situation of like, there's a lot more that we could be offering here. And but now we're in a situation where, where, where we can't have a dialogue with the client, because it's against the competition rules of the procurement process. This is really silly. And actually, there's a whole world of value, which is what you're discussing here. Yeah, but now we're just being asked to do the drawings.
You know, Ryan, I can only solve one problem at a time.
The procurement process is part of that old model, right? To be honest, it's part of that, and it fits in it dovetails in really nicely to that old model. Do I wish it was different? Of course I do. But these things take time. They take time. They take reflection, they take conversations like this. They take education of clients, they take education of procurement officers. And so like I said, I am I'm very aware as the years tick by that I don't have a tremendous amount of time. But with the time that we have left as designers and architects, and I like to call myself a community builder, as opposed to, I have to call myself an architect, because that's legally I need to, but I think hopefully, in one small way, this conversation, other conversations land somewhere that someone says Hang on a second, I want to do this differently. Yeah. Because again, if we talk about that circle of people sitting down together, I as the architect, I'm not in the middle of that circle preaching to the procurement people that they need to, we all have to sit down together. Right. And so I talk as much as I can about it. I talked to my clients as much as it can about it, and it may not fit for us. I mean, we live in a real world. These are hypotheticals, these are ideals. And some of my clients, we land on those ideals and we move forward with them. Some of them live in a in that older model, and we have to also serve them. And so patients patients is important. And just being true to the values that we think we can bring as architects as strategic partners in the built environment. And may or may not be this project, but it may be the next project with that client and so the long game is really part of
the process. Do you find yourself then advising to, you know, the, and trying to influence regulations and government, you know, the overall procurement system itself?
Not, that's chapter two, chapter one, chapter one is to serve as diligently as it can, the people who come to us and say, We need to think about something different. Because I think about our clients as CO conspirators as well, right? So they, they sign on to this, and it's not, it's not a traditional process. And so they're learning and we're learning together. And so they they're really part of the puzzle, as much as we are part of the puzzle. And they are signing up to be part of the solution. So together, removing these ideas, we're proving we're so their projects are the test grounds. And they're, they're involved in that testing, they're curious about that testing, and so together with our clients, with their consultants, with the builders, we are demonstrating these ideas, and then hopefully, we have enough data, because we were really, I feel a demonstration and data is really important to the conversation. It's one thing to say something, but if you can't demonstrate it, and if you can't prove it, then you've lost half your audience, show him and so to be able to build up enough that we can actually start testing and that's when we feel we can go to the regulators and say, Hey, you have a different way. And here's the data, here are the KPIs that show how it can be, how it can be successful.
And for you guys as a as an architectural business, do you still get involved in kind of that that kind of production side of it, purchasing drawings? And oh, yes,
yeah. Yes, less. So now most of our clients come to us for that strategic, strategic stuff. I know when a lot of a lot of people were revisiting hybrid office and, you know, you could look at a magazine and see a pretty picture. But the hybrid office is something that we advise clients to be really strategic about, because every operation is different. And every group of employees and every organization has a different culture, different function. And again, when you look at it from a strategic operational level, the building the interiors, have to respond to those operational pressures, and those operational opportunities. And so it is, yes, we do traditional work. And yes, we do we have clients who I mean, when you think about workplaces, you have a fixed time you have a lease, that is the ticking bomb, the ticking clock, that you have to respond to. Yeah, so we find ways to respond to that in an intelligent way, as well, and still meet the still meet the deadlines still meet the criteria. But I think it's important to leave the client always with something to think about that's more exciting, then, you know, put some offices here and put the boardroom in the correlates,
is what's so interesting about it is that you actually kind of tapping into a lot of quite deep things about placemaking and community. And it's, you know, at the heart of it is a kind of identity conversation. That's been that's been, you know, perpetuated and, and driven. And that as an organization is massively important just in terms of how you communicate how your efficiency works, what your vision is, for the rest of the the organization, how the how effective you're going to be and what your overall goals and objectives are. And I think, to have architects involved in that conversation is so important. Because I know, you've heard me talk about this before that. It's so it's so often that architects get cut out of those high level strategic conversations, and we've got so much to offer.
Yes. I mean, maybe there's a side project here where we try to find out exactly why we're cut out of that process. Because I think that's an important question to us, and how do we encourage people who were, you know, the people who were there to make a quick buck and I'm not saying there's anything wrong, if that's your thing, that's your thing. You know, you'd be you but the people who hire those people are the ones I think that need to step back a minute and ask the questions. Because if you hire someone to deliver a project and you say we need you to deliver this project, with X amount of dollars and X amount of time. Is that the right question to ask in the beginning of a project. Yeah. You know, and so the people who are employing us employing the developers, or sorry, not not the developers, but the builders and the finance people. They're the ones that need to ask this question. They're the ones that need to flip the script way. And so it might be interesting to find out why, what is the sort of obsession with, you know, having having the plugs in the wall and plugging it with certain people and not having this sort of holistic approach where everyone sees everyone's contribution. And it's a fairly open and it's a, you know, you sit down, I sit down in the room, and and I think it's so fun. It's such, like, beyond it being effective, and you have all your KPIs, and everything works really well, and everyone's happy. We're singing songs together all that stuff. It is so fun to be in a room and to say, what's the vision for this project? It is. I mean, if you're not doing that, you're missing out on a lot of fun.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, what, from your perspective, why do you think architects, if you were to hazard a guess, perhaps why do you think architects often have been circum navigated in this aspect? Or where was it some have we dropped the ball somewhere?
Yes, and I think, yes, we've dropped the ball somewhere, because for whatever reason, we don't say we don't claim or lane, we don't own our lane, we don't say this is the value I can bring and lean into that. But at the same time, the pressures of the built environment and getting things done on time on budget, and all these constraints, those are really difficult things to navigate and to go to, let's say a developer, or someone who's got a piece of land, they need to finance it, you know, some of some of these finances costs millions of dollars a month, of just so the pressures of that, yeah, we're part of a system. And as much as we'd like to be idealistic, and move towards a sort of happiness model, which is what we're trying to do. We are, again, systems, we're living in a system that does not value that, in fact, sees that as a devaluation of the property. You know, if you're spending millions of dollars a month, while everyone's talking about vision, and you know, all these things, if you see it from that perspective, of course, the architect, the model I'm talking about, doesn't feel like it will get you to the destination of on time and on budget, I
guess a part of it as well, I suppose, as the architect is, architects generally are very good at thinking big picture and long term. And a lot of what we're discussing here for an institution is that they get just caught up in being short sighted, and looking for a short, a short term kind of result to bounce judge success through. Absolutely.
And if you think about the different clients, we have, like the when I when we used to do multifamily rents, which we don't do anymore. The client is not the person living in those condo suites, or the rental suites, the client is removed from the experience of that architecture. And so their performance metrics are going to be different than the person who actually lives in that building. Yeah, we've noticed a difference between that kind of client and the client who is a university client. Not only do they have to live in that building that you've designed for them, they have to maintain it. They have to use that building or that design as a way to recruit students and recruit staff and recruit professors and faculty. And so the KPI, the ksi, the key strategic indicators, and the key performance indicators are very different. And so when you think about a client's, the client you have and what drives their involvement in a project, I think it starts to make sense starts to become is you start to see that and so what we have done is that we've sought out clients that fit this model of let's take a moment to address the systemic issue and how this project can serve you in the longer term and and help you recruit. So the building is not just a building to house, you know, X amount of people goal per the building code, it's there to serve. It's got a, it's got a higher purpose, you know, than shelter from the environment.
How does this relate to your B Corp certification?
Well, the B Corp certification is sort of, as you said, is the indicator is the outside indicator of what's happening inside. And so it also holds us to bear on those KPIs. So we say we want to we want by this year, we want to accomplish X, Y, and Zed, these are the indicators we have like one of one of our indicators is, you know, 75% of our projects will go through this visioning process, this sort of multi stakeholder diverse ideas at the table, community led, design, impetus, impetus of design, and so it holds you to account. And it also is one of those things where to use a terrible analogy, if the if you build it, they will come if you meaning, I don't need to use it for bugs, but if you if you build the ethos, if you build, if you build the ethos around the vision you have, and for Korea, it's we want to build happiness and inclusion in the built environment. The people who want that the people who who may not know what that looks like, but they know they want it. Because we all have a sense we are human beings, we're connected to each other in various ways, in some profound ways, even you know, we, we are a connected web of consciousness. And you will, you will, we will find each other if we have similar values. And if we're doing similar things. Our clients also want happiness, which is why they find us, right. And so you build the ethos and they will come. I think that's what the that's what the B Corp does it. It broadcasts is that ethos?
Yeah, I, I found it very interesting with the practices that I've interviewed over the past who become B Corp certified and the kind of community that is emerging of organizations around the world. And how it's a kind of, you know, because it's no easy thing to get certified, it's no, it's it's a it's a pretty arduous. I mean, how long did it take you guys to
do two and a bit two years in a bit? Right? So
that's a yes, it's a serious investment of time. And we're there and we're there a kind of series of things that you were failing on perhaps to begin with, and then you had to uplevel it to hit the standards, or?
Well, I think the luckily, as, as our, as our consultants said, B Corp was built into the, to the DNA of Korea from the beginning, right. But as a small organization, and as an emerging practice, you don't have all these things documented, showing away that. So in a way, B Corp was, while it was rigorous, it actually forced us to codify a lot of the things that we were very casual about, frankly, and, and allowed us to see how the impact of what we're doing in real numbers. So yes, B Corp is a great like, indicator out there. But I think internally, it really changed how we operated, and how seriously we took that operation. I mean, we're still we're still a little unserious, which is great, I think. I think being a little unserious is important, we can't take ourselves too seriously. But it really did create a format and create some rigor and discipline within the organization that I'm grateful for. And
does it allow you to be able to you can now go and identify other B Corp organizations. And does it give you a kind of calling card or an open door or way just to connect with another business or business leaders? Absolutely.
Absolutely. It's, you know, I went to my first B Corp retreat. In March, I think it was. And it was it felt like coming home. It was the most bizarre. I've been to conferences before architecture conferences, all kinds of conferences. Yeah. And you're you're in Yeah, you're there to do business. You meet people and the first day everyone's hugging everyone's like, talking about their values, talking about their social impact. It is an unreal and beautiful experience. I've never experienced anything like it before. And it felt a little like coming home. And what I mean by that is there's always been this drive to do work this way. But it's always been an uphill climb. I've always been going against the grain to bring these values into a traditional architecture practice. And even when I started Korra, or founded Cora I had to make that decision and strategically navigate through a very traditional and an even to this day male dominated and not just male dominated in me met people, but male dominated in the attitudes and the culture and the practice. Early in my career, even though I was a woman, I personify that maleness in order to be a successful architect. So that's what I mean by a male dominated profession. I just, you know, you you meet people who are CEOs and have huge organizations that are B Corp, and they have something different. Yeah, they be, they show up differently as a human being. And I, it's, it's, it's an incredible experience, to be part of that community. Because if it's, you don't feel you feel like, because it felt alone. Yeah, frankly, it felt alone. And luckily, I'm a very stubborn person. So I kept doing it. Luckily, I'm on luckily. And so when you show up to a place like that, and see that there are other people who have really made their mark on the world and establish themselves. And redefine success, frankly, it becomes a real treasure to be part of that community.
I guess the other thing that's quite amazing about it, like you're kind of hinting out here is that it's a real diverse mix of organizations and businesses, you could have the fortune 500 companies that are on there, and meet the CEOs. And then you can have smaller Mom and Pop type of businesses and stores from every possible imaginal imaginable industry as well, which I think is also particularly fascinating. And everyone's kind of connected by a very similar, similar set of values and aspirations of what business can be.
I hope it's a movement, I hope it's a movement that catches on I hope it's a movement that I mean, you go I go, even before I became a B Corp, I sought out if I went to the store, and there's two bars of soap, and once a B Corp, and what's not a B Corp, I'll buy the B Corp. Right. And that's what I mean is like you you, you find each other you seek each other out, because the value proposition is the same. And your success measures are more expensive. They're more nuanced. And, and, and you've taken the time which goes back to the practice that we have, you've taken the time to stop and say what is my value proposition? What is my offering to the community? What is my offering on this table we call society. And so I think that that really synergize with us and so becoming a B Corp was a no brainer. Love it.
Obviously, you were one of a POA clients and we've worked to work together in the past, what were some of the things that you were doing with us that that influenced the way that you run your business or kind of change the direction perhaps
implementations? You drill that into us from day one. I am a victim of Perfection is the enemy of success. And so I think one of the things well, I'll start from the top one of the things I really got out of Bo A is it gave me in the space and the courage to think about the vision and think about the mission in a very structured way and in very purposeful way. And I think that that foundation was really key to being comfortable with the language of vision with the language of purpose. It became really I am very comfortable talking about our values because of that. Because of that Working with DOA. And then there's also what's the tactical stuff? It's just like, understanding that there are practical tactical things that you have to do. So yes, you have the vision. And yes, you have that stuff. But unless you're doing it and implementing it in your business, it stays as an idea. Yeah. And as we know, ideas, my husband always says ideas is baby ideas, it's not your problem. And so and so to drive the implementation of, of those ideas was huge for me, and to be able to find structure and discipline in that was huge,
amazing. What's the rest of 2024, but planned for you?
Well, we're going to do our first annual retreat, I know it's a long time coming and what's in store for us, is to really lean into our B Corp commitments, and to really drive home the impact of our social impact. And, and, and merging that with the actual numbers of the KPIs. And so being able to have that flow between the vision and the, the metric, the outcome, the success factors, I think, is where we're at, tactically, internally. And externally, we, we we want to win, we want to bring these ideas to the road, we want, we want to really start talking to other architects talking to educators, talking to municipalities, having dialogues like this having dialogues in a bigger forum, to bring to the awareness of the built in for people who are responsible for the built environment, that we can do it differently. And we can do it in a way that still holds everyone's profit margins. But basically reframe what success looks like when we think about the built environment. So that's, that's the thing. That's the big picture for us is to really build our army of CO conspirators on the journey to happiness. Yeah,
amazing. I mean, it's a perfect place to conclude the conversation. Michelle, thank you so much for speaking, it's always a delight to speak with you. And I'm always super inspired. And I hear about what you guys are up to and your and your vision for the built environment. So thank you so much.
Thank you, Ryan. Appreciate it. Lovely to talk to you too.
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