I haven't checked the weather yet, but I know it is the perfect day to chat about adult Jewish literature. I'm Sheryl Stahl, thanks for joining me here at Nice Jewish Books. Be still my librarian heart, I was thrilled to read a book, a Cave of Secrets, which included archival and library research. So welcome. Lynn Golodner, please tell me about this book.
Oh, thank you so much for having me, Sheryl. I'm really excited to be here. So Cave of Secrets really came out of a month long writing sabbatical that I took in the Scottish Highlands in the summer of 2022 and I went there because I just wanted to be there and to really be there for a while, learn the landscape, feel like a local, you know, go to the grocery to learn how to drive on the wrong side of everything. And and when I was there, I thought, Okay, well, I came here to write, what am I writing? And so wherever I go in the world, and I do travel a lot, I look for the writers, and I look for the Jews. And so I was like, Well, where are the Jews in Scotland? I know that there probably were not a lot, but I knew that there were Jewish communities. And I started doing research, and I did find some Jewish communities. And I also found some historical figures who were Jewish in Scotland. And so at first I thought that I would write a historical novel about those particular individuals who really lived. And I thought about it, and I started researching their ancestral homes, and it turns out that one of the homes is still being operated by descendants of the person, and it was not open in July. So the next year, when I was in the middle of trying to write this, I contacted the family to see if I could come back and visit the home and also meet them. And they said, We don't want our our ancestors written about in fiction. And so I thought, Okay, well, they can't tell me what to do, right? And I talked to my attorney, and he said they don't have any legal standing, but they could make your life miserable. And do you really want to deal with that? So maybe change the names? And I thought, well, I could do that. But also I don't really write historical fiction. I write more contemporary fiction, and so that really changed the story. So I took inspiration from those historical individuals, and I put together a fiction story in contemporary times, but with some magical realism and historical information that, you know, led up to the current, contemporary characters, and that's really what inspired the story, and I just sort of ran with it, but those first nuggets of inspiration came from actual people who really lived.
That was going to be one of my first questions. Is that when you think of places where Jews have lived, Scotland does not generally pop into your mind, right? So when did Jews arrive there?
Well, I don't know when they arrived, but I do. The characters that I wrote are based on individuals who were there in the mid 19th century, and they've been there. I think they're one of the characters, their parent, their parents had been there. So it's earlier 1800s possibly late 1700s and you know what, I think I'm going to need to do that research so I have that for for future reference. But the other character, who married a Scot she was from London, and there was a huge Jewish community there, and but she ended up marrying a Scottish Lord. And so she lived in Scotland, but was actually her family was really in London, so, but there are communities. Glasgow has a pretty vibrant, but small community of more Orthodox Jews, actually, and the Scottish Jewish archives are there. And then there is a more contemporary liberal community in Edinburgh. And then there are some Jewish community groups in the Highland and then there's also a community in Aberdeen on the North Sea. So there are Jews throughout Scotland, but very small communities.
Tell us about your contemporary characters. So we start with Eve.
Yes. So Eve and her father, Sam, are two of the main characters. And then Mac and his mother, Margaret, or Mags, they're the other two, and I really wanted to go back and forth between them. And of course, central to the book is the love story between Eve and Mac, which I really, I always write about love stories, and I love to represent you know that on the page, it's always fun. But what I thought was interesting, I did a lot of research into naming the characters, looking at, you know, ancestral pegs, and how they might end up where I wanted them to be. And so I loved that Eve was really close to her father, and I wanted to, I wanted it to be a single father, and I tried to figure out, how is that going to happen? So, you know, her mother passed away in childbirth, and so she's never really known her. And Sam, you know, names her Eve because she's the first woman. She's starting the family legacy over, because he leaves with her and raises her in Ann Arbor, because he's gay and he can't be openly out in his Orthodox community. And so Ann Arbor, Michigan, Detroit, Michigan. These are places I know. Well, I'm a native Detroiter. And then Mac and his mother, Mags, you know, I wanted some highborn, you know, guy who's like, I can be down to earth. I don't need this whole, you know, ancestral hoity toity, you know, attitude, which he very much is a salt of the earth, and his mother is not. She was born in a poorer section of Glasgow, and she goes to one of the best universities in the UK, and that's where she meets her husband, who is a Scottish Lord, who's pretty down to earth actually, but she just really is always trying to inhabit this role, and she has to come to terms with her true identity, which I think is the story of all of them. All four characters need to really embrace who they are, and I hope they do by the end of the book.
Yeah, I love that. There was a bit of a mystery, a bit of a love story, a bit of family relations and personal growth all around.
Thank you.
Your book has it all. Thanks. So we start with Eve out on the walk in the highlands. She's in Scotland on an internship to learn to be an archivist and so, but she likes living out in the country more, so she's taking a walk. It starts raining, she takes refuge in a cave and finds this kind of shocking letter that was sort of buried in the back,
yep, and of course, she's curious, and she's there to become an archivist, so she's wondering what to do with this, right? The archival aspects were inspired by my husband, who is an archivist at Wayne State University, and so he definitely advised on this book and made lots of changes so that it could be accurate. But I thought that was a really fun journey to try to trace ancestry and and the mystery of the letter and the journals that she finds, and there is no cave on conical, just, you know, I've hiked conical, but there is no actual cave. That's, that's fiction that you know of, that I know of, yes, you're right. You're right. But, but, yeah, so that's, that's what she finds in it. And it turns out that, you know, it's these, these historical figures, and she unravels their story in the book.
So she also, after hiking, and she's soaking wet, she goes to the local pub and meets Mac, who's the owner of the pub, and she doesn't realize that he's actually heir to the whole estate. You know that he's the next, I don't know what you call the next down from the Lord, the Lord in waiting, yes, yeah. And so they start a love story, and it turns out that the letter and the other material she find is connected to his family, and he is really torn about her pursuing this. On one hand, as a relationship develops, he wants to be really supportive, you know, and say, you know, follow your dreams, do what's important to you. But on the other hand, he's like, but don't you think you can just drop it?
right, right, right?
So he was kind of going back and forth. And his mother especially was like, No, stay out of our family. Stay out of our history.
Yeah, so, you know, I feel like it's important to represent families with all their nuances and challenges and beauty and everything and and I can see especially in the aristocracy, a desire to keep the ugly stories of our history, which every family has secret or just not, you know, in the public eye. And you know, of course, the fact that the whole magical realism element of the book where where some of the ancestors come back to her and say, you've got to share our story. The truth needs to come out. Complicates things. But I know, you know, I really grappled with who, you know, what were the motivations? And so for Eve, you know, she's trying to make a life for herself and a career and make her mark. And she doesn't know who she is, because she's, you know, she grew up without family. She doesn't really know where she came from or the truth of that. And so I think she feels acutely that it's really important to share only the truth. And, you know, I think as much as Mac is sort of the rebel in the family, it's still the family. And he and he doesn't want to just turn his back on them all together. And so I think they're pulled from a lot of directions.
And it's also interesting what families think are their dark secrets. Because what was a dark secret to Mac's family to Eve, it was interesting, but, yeah, it was not a terrible secret, right,
right? I think it's our own insecurities or demons that help make us see things in one light or another, and certainly for mags or Margaret, you know, she's trying to present one, one face to the world. She doesn't want the deep, dark, you know, hidden details, like the fact that she grew up poor, or, you know that there may be anti semitic ancestors or Jewish ancestors, or whatever. She just wants it to be nice and easy and just exactly as you see it, and because she's been trying to live that way, too. So I think when, when you release the truth, you you become free to be who you really are in all the different ways, absolutely.
So you mentioned that Eve was raised by a single gay father,
but she didn't ... he had neveractually had a gay relationship. So he had, he knew who he was attracted to, but he was just really focused on raising Eve, you know, and being the best father he could, and being the anti father of what he had, you know, someone who is so strict and unyielding, you know, and to be supportive of her and of her dreams. And so he really kind of neglected this whole personal side of himself to the point that Eve didn't know he was gay until he had to come out to her when she was a young teenager. Yeah, yeah, which turned out to be a little traumatic for both of them, but they resolved that, you know, because of their love and relationship, so kind of, on the other hand, Margaret was so focused on her role of being the aristocrat and raising a perfect family who will carry on the family name and the family heritage and legacy and all that that she didn't really take the time to connect with her children at all, and really even lost the connection with her husband. It's like the more she fell into the into the trappings of, you know, being a lady, the the more distant she became from the actual people around her. So yeah, it seemed like they were both having a lot of trouble finding any kind of balance with their creating an inner life and having relationships,
yes, and it's interesting, because Sam Eve's father has secret relationships, but they don't, they're not emotionally deep, you know, they're, they're physical, or they're, they're they're quick, but he doesn't want to live out in the open because he's so afraid, because of all the trauma that he endured when she was little and when he was when he was younger. And so, you know that he has to work through that and release himself. And I think it's the same for Margaret, you know? I think that she, you know, at some point. I think they both are set. They set themselves free. I think they do and, and I think that that's, you know, the whole book is about hiding and keeping secrets and being honest. And, you know, how can you dare to do that? And that it seems scary, but that once you do, it's so fulfilling.
And you mentioned the magical realism. So she Eve did have, and you left it a little vague. So I guess by saying magical realism, it pushed it one way. So either she was having very vivid dreams, or spirits were visiting her, saying, you know, tell our story. Tell our story.
Yeah, and that really surprised me, because I don't think I write in that genre, but when I you know, I've been writing my whole life, and this is the second published novel, but the third novel I've written, and I will say that even when I wrote the first very bad novel, like 25 years ago, it always it surprises me, and it's so cool how the characters just take over, and I'll reread something I wrote, and I'm like, where did that come from? Even though I've planned it out, and I thought it was going in another direction. And I think that that's really what happened with this too, is that when I wrote the first scene where suddenly Shira is there and it's. Like, Well, how did that happen, you know? And it just was really fun. And so, you know, I don't it's not my normal genre, but I think it added a whole element to the story that is surprising and is fun too.
So it sounds like you did quite a bit of research. Was there anything in your research that surprised you?
That's a really good question. You know, I don't know if there was anything that surprised me, except, you know, and I'm purposely not naming the historical figures, you know, just to protect who they actually were, but the people that I based it on the woman who married a Scottish Earl he he was actually anti semitic, but they had this really deep marriage, and I thought a lot about that and how maybe that was normal for the times. Or how does somebody who feels so Jewishly identifying and strong about it share a life and build a family with somebody who was so opposed, that was kind of interesting to think about. And there were a lot of contradictions in those relationships. And, yeah, I mean, it was just, it was interesting. Another thing that I found was that I was researching, you know, the the Jewish doctor who was sort of an inspiration for Benjamin in the book, was somebody who, literally, in the 1800s traveled the world to bring health care to poor Jewish communities. And I didn't, I guess maybe I was naive in this, but I didn't think that that was something that happened in the mid 1800s you know, that feels like a very modern effort to to be that global. And I was really surprised and pleased to learn that that happened. So that was really nice to find out, too,
Yeah, that is interesting. So was there any intriguing tidbit that you found that did not make it into the book?
Oh, I'd have to go through my notes to see if there, if there were, because there have been a lot of, I mean, it's funny, when I wrote this, I thought, you know, it's my second published novel, it's going to be like, perfect after the first draft. And believe me, it was not, when I printed out the rough draft, you know, so I could read it and, like, make notes on it. There were whole pages that I was like, X-ing out and, you know, saying, Oh, this is terrible. This needs to go. So there's a lot that I cut in those early drafts, but I can't remember now what it was, you know, like, what? Maybe it was trite or overwritten in some way. And so I just wanted to focus on what was essential to these stories. Yeah, I don't know toward the ending, and I don't want to spoil anything for people listening. I want them to be able to be surprised by the ending. But I had to play with that a lot to really resolve it and see how, how it could end. That was probably one of my biggest challenges, and I hope I did a good job with it. But, you know, it was interesting because I, after I'd written a draft or two, I went back to Scotland, and so when I was there, in 2022 I was in the highlands, and when I and I, I placed this book at Loch Lomond, which I did not go to when I was there in 2022 so I went back in 2023 and I spent time in Edinburgh, and I spent time at Loch Lomond just to make it come alive, more authentically and and so that was really fun to do. So hopefully it got more real and authentic in time. But I don't, I don't know. I'd have to go through all those, you know, x-ed out pages and see what, what nuggets I threw out that maybe should have stayed in.
Did you need to check out a lot of the local pubs just to make sure that that part was true?
Of course, of course. Yes. I will say also the, one of the fun things to do is to research music from that period of time. And I do have a Cave of Secrets playlist on Spotify, which anybody can listen to check out. And it's, it's a lot of the songs mentioned in the in the book, but also of the time that I think would be like, sort of speak to the story. So that was really fun to do, too.
That's great. That does sound like fun. Do you have any projects in the works that you would like to mention?
Yeah, thank for thank you for asking I do I so my first novel, Woman of Valor is about a young woman who chooses to become orthodox in Judaism and sort of the experiences she has. And so I always wanted to write a book too, in the Woman of Valor series, and so I'm working on that now, and it focuses on a secondary character from Woman of Valor, Batya, who is the protagonist's best friend. And so I'm working on her story, and it has gone just all over the place. And I think I have about 74,000 words right now, and I think I'm scrapping a lot of it and starting over, because I just sort of have a new perspective on it. But it's really about her journey to become religious, and why, like, what is the process for her, which I think is interesting to ponder and to sort of go through. But. And then I know there's the next book that I want to write that I haven't started yet, but it's in my head, so I have to finish fat Yes, book before I can get to that one. So yeah, yeah,
that's really interesting. Because it seems like I don't know if I would say a trend, but, but a lot of Off the Derekh books have been coming out about people leaving the Orthodox world. Yeah, so you're having people entering Orthodox,
yes. So when I wrote Woman of Valor, if I, if you don't mind me talking for a few minutes about it, I started it in 2011 and I was three years out of leaving orthodoxy. I didn't grow up that way, but I spent 10 years in that community, and when I started writing it, it was somebody who became religious and didn't like it. And I put it aside for 10 years. When I came back to it in 2021 I thought there are enough of those off the derekh books, and I don't want to contribute to that. And so I wanted to create a character who became religious and loved it, but then faced challenges like you face in any community that you're in. And so how does she stay religious? And so that is a lot of Women of Valor, and there's other things that happen in there, but in becoming Batya, which is the book I'm writing now, you know, I Batya doesn't really face those challenges. And so what I'm looking at is how and why does she choose to become religious in a way that is not inspired by trauma. Because a lot of people who become religious, they're leaving something else. You know, they're reacting to and in Woman of Valor, my protagonist, Sally, she has a horrible breakup. Her heart is broken just at the time that she's writing an article about the Orthodox community in Skokie, Illinois. And so these wonderful women take her under their wing, and she's it's like a salve for her sadness. So the breakup is the instigator that leads her to consider becoming Orthodox, but she also didn't have a very satisfying family. And so with Batya, I'm really looking at how would somebody who has close family relationships, who's happy, who has always strongly identified as Jewish? Why would she choose to become Orthodox and live a whole different way, without the impetus of trauma. And so that's something that that I'm looking at. And I just want her to get there. I don't need to to go through the whole thing. Does it stick? Does she stay? It's just, what is that transformation and why? And it's kind of fun to explore.
Is there anything you would like to answer or address that I haven't thought to ask
You know, one thing I would love to say is just that, when I developed my author brand, you know, and I have been writing for a long time, these are my first novels, but I had eight books published between 1996 and 2013 in poetry and nonfiction. And when I was looking at, you know, what is my author brand, I have very consistently written about Jewish identity and Jewish life, and I decided that it was really important for me to focus on creating compelling Jewish characters. And while Cave of Secrets is not a religious book per se, Jewish identity is definitely a theme in there. And I would say that since October 7, I think it's one of the most important things I can do is to put positive representations of Jewish identity in the world and and I, you know, it's funny, daughter asked me if I would have more success with the book if I didn't, and maybe I would, I don't know. I mean, I think I've been pretty successful with these books so far, but, and I've won some awards for woman of valor and hopefully will for Cave of Secrets, but I think it's a mission that is really important. And I I want to fill the world with positive Jewish stories. I think we need that more than ever,
absolutely, and that's definitely part of the the mission of the podcast is to tell, you know, to promote books with with strong Jewish characters. And my my gage
It's not quite the right word, but the way I decide if I'll include a book is, if we found out the character wasn't Jewish, would the story still be the same, or would it change? You know? So I just read a different book that I loved. There was so much good about it, but, you know, the main character was Jewish, but if he wasn't Jewish, it would make no difference to the story, interesting, but, but if your character was not Jewish, it would change a ton. You know, definitely would not be the same story.
So there'd be no story. That's a great gage, and it's such important work that you're doing. I'm so glad that you're putting that out there,
doing my best. So you may have already kind of answered this, but if you were to use your book as a call to action for Tikun Olam for repairing the world, what would it be?
Well, I mean, you're partially right that I think that talking about, you know, positive Jewish identity, strong Jewish identity, is part of how I do that. And I feel like the most important thing that I can do with these books is to have real life conversations with people, not just Jewish people, but but build an audience of all kinds. Kinds of people who want to read these stories and are interested and open in the conversation, so that we can change the narrative and we can take it back. And so I think that, you know, putting, you know, I'm not just writing for Jewish audience. I'm writing for a pretty broad audience, and I, and I'm so far, you know, successful with that, and people are intrigued. And I think that's the best thing we can do for Tikkun Olam.
Absolutely. That's wonderful. Thank you. So if someone would like to contact you, what is the best way?
So please check out my website. It's lynnegolodner.com but I'm also on all the socials, and you can just reach out and message me, and I'll respond. I love hearing from people. I also have a sub stack that I write every Monday, and it's about writing and publishing, and that's a great way to contact me as well.
Okay, great. I'll put the link to the website in the show notes. Thank you. And if you can send me the link to your Spotify list, I can include that as well.
Well. Lynn golodner, thank you so much for speaking to me about cave of secrets. I just enjoyed the book and the conversation. So much. Thank you for your time. Thanks,
Sheryl. It's great to meet with you, and I'm so glad to hear that
if you are interested in any of the books we discuss today, you can find them at your favorite board and brick or online bookstore or at your local library. Thanks to di Yan Ki for use of their Freilich, which definitely makes me happy. This podcast is a project of the Association of Jewish libraries, and you can find more about it at www.jewishlibraries.org/nice Jewish books. I would like to thank AJL and my podcast mentor Heidi Rabinowitz, Keep listening for the promo for her latest episode.
Hi. This is Adam Gidwitz, author of Max and the House of Spies. I'll be joining you soon on the Book of Life podcast. I'd like to dedicate my episode to all those kids out there who desperately want the truth and are in a situation where maybe for whatever reason, they can't find it.
Hi. This is Steve Sheinkin, author of Impossible Escape. I'll be joining you soon on the Book of Life podcast. I'd like to dedicate my episode to Mr Lindemann, Bill, but I, of course I knew him as Mr Lederman, my elementary school teacher, who was to this day, the best storyteller I've ever known and sparked the love of stories, the curiosity and wonder that stories can create.
The Book of Life is the sister podcast of nice Jewish books. I'm your host. Heidi Rabinowitz and I podcast about Jewish kidlit. Join me to hear my July 2024 conversation with Adam gidwitz and Steve schenken about Max and the house of spies and impossible escape at bookoflifepodcast com,
