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Episode 3 | Otter.ai

Episode 3

Lisa Shen49min

Lisa Shen

00:05

Hello, and welcome back to so you got to lifesite degree We're your hosts Frieda and Lisa to lifestyle undergrad students trying to navigate our future careers. This is Episode Three. And we're talking to Jessica Zhang about medical illustration and web design are you doing this week, Lisa? I'm doing good. I went over to someone's house yesterday. And we were trying to do the blanket trick on her cat. So if you don't know the blanket trick is when you stand kind of in a doorway, and you place your pet directly in front of the door, I usually it's a dog, because you'll see why when I explained, they actually care about you. And then you lift the blanket over your face. And then you let it down, and you lift it again, and you let it down again. And then. So this is a blanket that covers your whole body. And then you kind of throw it in the air a little bit, and you Dart off to the side. So from the perspective of the pet, it looks like the blanket swallows up their owner, which if you're a dog is the most important person in the entire world. And so there's funny videos on YouTube about the pets just freaking out. And so we tried on her cat, we did it twice. And the first time, the cat first of all got distracted by me moving the phone from filming her doing the blanket trick to filming the cat. She got distracted by my smart, slight movement of like six centimetres, because she was a cat. And then the second time she, she did pause because the second time I only filmed her. So there was no movement. And she caught she did go over to investigate the blanket. But we weren't sure if she was looking for her disappeared owner, or if she was just investigating the blanket because it was in a new location. And we never really did a negative control, I suppose, which would have been just a blanket on its own. So yeah. And then I wanted to do it more time. So she was like, No, no, no, she gets it now. And I was like, I don't I don't think so. But yeah. So yeah, those that's how my weeks been going. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm taking a computer science course this semester, which is a little bit out of my range of things I'm normally comfortable with. And we're learning how to programme in like the command line, which is like the screen that shows up on all the hacker movies with like, Oh my gosh, I actually know what that is. Yeah. Yeah, it just makes me feel like such a legit programmer. I like alone in my room. But I wish I was like in public and someone would just like look at my screen and be like, Wow, she's so. I mean, honestly, that's like a 20% of the reason I wanted to learn CSS was just to be able to be cool. Yeah, I think that's like, that's a big reason that most people are not afraid. That's true. That's true. For us. I'm like no, I just need to learn because biology. Meanwhile, all the middle schoolers are like, Yeah, but hacking NASA bro. Cool. Jessica is a freelance medical illustrator and front end web developer based in Toronto. She currently works at click health, a marketing agency and commercialization partner for life science brands. She completed her undergrad degree in life sciences at McMaster University, followed by a Master of Fine Arts in medical illustration at the Rochester Institute of Technology, as part of a transition to web development. She also attended genal College of Technology. She's passionate about communicating science concepts through interactive online experiences. Thank you for joining us today. Jessica. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. So we just wanted to start off by asking if you could just give us a brief overview of your job.

Speaker 1

03:39

Yeah, so my current title is senior web developer. And we're just basically responsible for any sort of digital marketing, so like websites, banners, emails, etc, etc. and I help out with the coding, as a senior I do some of the planning. Very cool.

Lisa Shen

03:58

Do you want to kind of explain to us maybe first, on a broad level, what a front end web developer is, because for context, my knowledge of coding and web development, all that stuff, even though both my parents do that, it is absolutely zero? Yeah, so

Speaker 1

04:13

I think web development is divided can be divided into front end and back end. And front end is kind of what you see when you open a page. So how it looks, the functionality that you see. And yeah, like the colours of designs and how it's built is all considered front end, while back end is more of the database side, what happens when you submit a form, what happens to that form and how it's stored and how that information is used? That is all on the back end of it. So you have on the front end? I work with making the website look the way it does and function the way it does for the users. You didn't

Lisa Shen

04:50

start out in web development. And after your undergrad, you actually pursued medical illustration, is that right? So do you want to talk us through a bit Like, why you went into the undergrad that you did? And then how you got into medical illustration, and then how that kind of evolved to where you are today. Yeah, so this,

Speaker 1

05:10

this is kind of a long story, I'll try to keep it brief. I went into undergrad to do life science, because I really enjoyed biology in high school. And my parents also really wanted me to become a doctor classic. Yeah, um, but I think like, one of my hobbies ever since I was young was drawing. So art was kind of always in my life, even though I wasn't pursuing it in school. And then through undergrad, I participated in a lot of like, different student communities where I acted more along as a marketing coordinator. So I did a lot of their like designs, their posters and advertisement, visual advertisement. So that's kind of where I discover like, Oh, I really enjoy this. And I think I saw more of a practical career in that then in science, because I kind of thought like to pursue science, I had to pursue many more years of studying and school and I wasn't sure if that was for me. So like, throughout undergrad, I was pretty lost with what I wanted to do. And then towards the end of, I think, end up, actually the beginning of my fourth year, that's when I discovered medical illustration. And I kind of instantly knew as I like, the first time, I saw those two words put together that that was something that I wanted to do, given, like my background in science, and like my continuous interest in art. And then yeah, that's kind of how I got into medical illustration. And then during grad school, as a medical illustrator, we focused a lot on interactive technology, which is kind of, I think, a huge part of the medical illustration industry, which is like interactive education for scientific concepts. And that was something that I focused my thesis on that I spent a lot of time sort of self learning, as well as taking elective courses and like computer science. And then, after I graduated, I had a bit of a hard time finding a job in Toronto that was like stable and kind of fit this fit the lifestyle that I wanted. So during some downtime, I went to Juno, and then yeah, like, became a web developer.

Lisa Shen

07:28

Do you want to just tell us briefly what Juno is?

Speaker 1

07:31

Yeah, Juno is. So Juno is a College of Technology. At the time, when I went, they were called hacker U. So you may hear me refer to them as hacker U. And at the time, they have part time courses, as well as this one full time boot camp where it's a 12, week, eight to six, Monday to Friday course. But it was actually really amazing. Like, it was an amazing, amazing experience for me, because the culture and the way that they teach keeps you really engaged. So the 12 weeks went by so quickly for me, and then they basically teach you the like what you need to do to get into the front end web development industry. So basic HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and then they kind of teach you how to build a portfolio and how to brand yourself. And then at the end of the, at the end of the programme, they also help you look for a job.

Lisa Shen

08:25

That's really cool. So yeah, we'll link that in the show notes, if everyone if anyone wants to check that out. For the Yeah, you. So you mentioned that in the when you were studying the medical illustration in grad school, they had focus on the interactive platforms and that side of things. So can you just explain what you mean by that? Like, is it mostly like articles, web pages, or how, what are some examples of that interactive technology of?

Speaker 1

08:49

Yeah, so I think a lot of illustration is it's a very niche field, but it is pretty broad in terms of what it entails. A lot of people do illustrations, like the diagrams you see in textbooks, and there's animations, where either for marketing or educational purposes, and then there's the interactive side, which can either be like a game, I think a lot of is gamification. Or it could just be a website that is more like an interactive learning platform. And what I'd liked I focused on for my thesis was that I created a game that a mobile game that was kind of like a shooter game, and I made it into the theme of like a leukaemia patient, and then you were a chemotherapy agent going through killing leukaemia cells. So that was kind of like a gamification.

Lisa Shen

09:38

Yeah, so I was just wondering, like, what before you went into grad school for medical illustration? What do you think is like the level of skill that you had to have or like, how did you ensure that you're up to par to pursue it as a career?

Speaker 1

09:52

I think, um, I've always been known in like high school and middle school as someone who like drew very well. But to be honest, when I first like I knew it in the middle of my fourth year, and then I took a gap year to kind of improve, I don't when I first discovered it, I like comparing myself to the current students, and I was not up to par at all. I was interested and like, I asked a couple of my professors if I can do work for them. So I had a little bit of experience there. But like actual fine art, technical skills, I was not up to par. So I took that year. During the year, I went to like a art school on the weekends, and kind of like really had to build up my portfolio. And like my technical skills, but I think like the year really paid off and like, I think, because I was also a little older, I got to I picked up the I picked it up a lot faster,

Lisa Shen

10:45

older, you mean compared to

Speaker 1

10:47

the art school was pretty much dedicated to high school students that were pursuing art, like art major and university.

Lisa Shen

10:55

Right. And so that was before that was not the actual medical illustration programme that was just to prepare you and develop a portfolio. So you could apply? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So do you want to tell us a bit about the medical illustration programme? I've heard it's pretty competitive to get it. And I've also heard that there's not a lot of programmes in Canada.

Speaker 1

11:13

Yeah. So in Canada, there's just a one programme at University of Toronto. And then in America, I don't know how many there is now. But when I was going, there's, I think there's four. Wow. And each of the programmes require either an undergrad in sciences or arts. And if you typically if you have a science programme, you need a couple of art credits. And if you are, if you have an art degree, then you need a couple of science credits. And then basically, you submit your transcripts, and then a portfolio some of the schools require, like a few specific pieces, which is whether it's like, life drawing, or like specific themed pieces, um, as well as reference letters. Some schools require like juries, others don't. But yeah, that's kind of the gist.

Lisa Shen

12:02

Okay, I know, at McGill, like I don't think we actually have programmes dedicated specifically to like visual arts. Is that like, kind of the art classes that you're talking about? Or is it just any kind of?

Speaker 1

12:12

Oh, yeah. So in regards to that, like, I couldn't take any studio art classes in McMaster either. Okay. And then are it actually required you to take studio classes? So I took them during my gap year at UTM. But then I actually took classes outside of school to prepare my portfolio.

Lisa Shen

12:30

Okay. And then for your portfolio, what kind of pieces? Is it? Is it? Is there any more like on the web type coding pieces included? Or is it more just like life drawing or things like that? Yeah, so Oh, that's

Speaker 1

12:45

a long time ago. But it's all static pieces. Um, I think mine was a combination of traditional art and digital art. So but like traditional, or I just mean, like, still life or life drawings. Okay. Like, they actually recommend you not to draw anything scientific or medical? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Because just in case you made a mistake, that really takes away from your artwork as as it is,

Lisa Shen

13:13

like a like, if you make a mistake, like you put the appendix in the wrong place.

Speaker 1

13:16

Yeah. Or like your drawing. Yeah, basically, or if you're depicting a structure in a way that it's not supposed to, there are some common mistakes and medical illustration that we learned in grad school. So I think it's like if you made any of those mistakes, it just tastes away from like a beautiful piece.

Lisa Shen

13:31

Oh, I understand. And then so then, while you were actually in that programme, what are the sorts of things that you learned? What was that programme? Like?

Speaker 1

13:39

Yeah, so I would say it's like, maybe 40%, science based and 60% are based, like science based a huge course was on human gross anatomy. So you go into a cadaver lab, and you look at all the structures. Oh, wow. Yeah, it is a very rewarding course. And obviously, like something that not everyone gets to experience, you really get to see in detail what the human body looks like. And then there's a couple of courses dedicated to just digital art and how to draw medical art digitally, and things to focus on. And then there was a couple of courses on like interactive media, which is basic coding, and what type of medical art can be done through that. And then a couple of courses on animation, and I think you had like one or two electives that year.

Lisa Shen

14:33

So you've mentioned illustration, or sorry, you've mentioned medical diagrams or human anatomy a lot is the majority of medical illustration, whether it be animation or diagrams, is it largely based around a human anatomy do anything about that?

Speaker 1

14:48

I think it's very mixed. There is definitely a large portion that is based on human anatomy more traditionally, but I think nowadays the hot field is more like molecular Cool.

Lisa Shen

15:00

Yeah, no, I was gonna say that. That's pretty cool. So honestly, when Dr. Daniel mentioned medical illustration, I also thought that that was something I might be interested in. Hmm. I've always been pretty artsy. I still am. Yeah, you still she sends me like cards up in Montreal that are like, drawings. Yeah, I sent a little postcards. And when I first heard about the query, I was pretty interested in it. But I think I was pretty put off by the concept that I would be drawing a lot of diagrams about the human body maybe because that isn't my favourite thing. But yeah, like it's it's good to hear that there are also medical illustration tasks that aren't just to do with drawing the appendix for textbooks.

Speaker 1

15:41

Yeah, I actually feel like nowadays human gross anatomy are is not that common, just because there's so many that are already done. So I think like, if somebody needed a piece, they might just be able to get copyright licencing as opposed to commissioning an artist to draw it on its own.

Lisa Shen

15:59

Right? Because the human body doesn't change much. Basically, what it is, do you so I guess along those same lines, like do you feel like the main topics of focus for the drawings have changed over time? And what do you think it's going towards? Or is right now?

Speaker 1

16:16

I mean, I think now everything is digital. There are of course, like, if someone's looking to publish a book, and they just want consistent art, there is like more gross anatomy. But I do think a lot of like real life projects are very, like molecular pathways are the new research comes up. Okay.

Lisa Shen

16:33

Would you mind just going through some of the projects that maybe you've worked on and some interesting ones that you've liked?

Speaker 1

16:39

Yeah. So I think real life, I worked as a medical illustrator for about six months after I graduated, and I was doing and I was doing patient education animations. Oh, cool. Yeah. So I was working for bass, I was working for an agency that was working for, I want to say, nonprofit organisations that were promoting, like pancreatic health, clinical trials and such, those kinds of concepts. So yeah, I worked on a couple of animations. Very cool.

Lisa Shen

17:07

So I think one thing that makes people hesitant to maybe pursue this pursue medical illustration as a career, even though they might be really interested is just how consistent Li they can get work or how it might be kind of unpredictable. So could you speak a little on that? Like, how accurate do you think that is, or inaccurate?

Speaker 1

17:26

I think that's very accurate, at least for me, there are definitely people who can give very stable jobs, and they can work on a company for a very long time and grow with the company. But there are only so many jobs, I do think there are graduates that come out of these programmes that are not able to find something stable right away, because there's just, there's still a limit to the demand. Because I do think a lot of people are not aware of medical illustration as a field. Do you mean they're not aware of as a field?

Lisa Shen

17:55

So they don't think to hire? Yeah, like,

Speaker 1

17:57

I think there are people out there who just don't know that you can hire someone to depict your research or, you know, your the concept that you're trying to put out there.

Lisa Shen

18:05

Do you know about the nature of that work? Like Yeah, like some of it is freelance, freelance or contract based work, but I believe there's also medical illustrators that work for medical illustration companies.

Speaker 1

18:17

Yeah, like click actually has their own team of medical illustrators that, you know, live very, like they have very stable jobs. There definitely are many companies that hire medical illustrators for full time. But like, even then I think those positions are very limited. And I think once they find a good medical illustrator, what are the chances of them being replaced,

Lisa Shen

18:39

I guess, hmm, true. Yeah. Do you have any approximations for like, what percentage of people like working full time places versus on contract versus freelance, like, I totally would not expect you to actually know but just maybe guessing?

Speaker 1

18:52

I don't, because I'm not super involved with the Toronto Community of medical illustrators. But I know based on I think, my graduation class I Alrighty, we were eight people. And I want to say, half of us have full time medical illustration jobs.

Lisa Shen

19:08

Oh, wow. That's more than I thought. Yeah. So and then kind of talking a bit more about jobs. And you know, like getting a job in the medical illustration industry. Now that you've perhaps at least for the time being transitioned a bit more to web development. Do you think that's where you want to stay? Or would you like to do more medical illustration work in the future?

Speaker 1

19:29

I think a full time wise, I love to continue being a web developer. I do love medical illustration as well, which is why I tried to do freelance jobs on the side. But yeah, my focus is definitely on web development.

Lisa Shen

19:42

Do want to tell us about some of the things you enjoy about web development.

Speaker 1

19:45

Yeah, I think like, one of the huge reasons why I did love medical illustration was the idea of like, being creative with limitations, which I think also translates to like problem solving, because you're given a concept and you have to Use whatever you can to portray it in a visual way. And I think the problem solving part was something I was very interested in. So I think switching to web development where almost everything is based on problem solving, like I really like that kind of challenge. So I really enjoy the tasks that web development gives me.

Lisa Shen

20:19

That sounds really interesting. Could you give us a more like concrete example of when you've done that, or walk us through that a little for medical illustration, or web development? Either one, whichever one you want to do? Okay, so

Speaker 1

20:30

for medical illustration, like something that's more of a problem solving is say you have an audience that is only for younger, the younger audience, like a children audience, you're trying to explain to them what a disease is. So you don't want to be scary. And you don't want to portray it to realistically, but you want to be accurate, right? So you kind of have to work within what you know about your audience and the tools that you have. So maybe making a cell into a character with like eyes and making them talk and making them interact in a way where it's like, still innocent, but you can tell what's happening in the disease. So I think that's that kind of like problem solving was something I was extremely interested in.

Lisa Shen

21:12

And then what about on the web development? And do you have any examples of problem solving? Yeah, so

Speaker 1

21:17

I think like, for example, if I'm building a website, you know, I have to build a website based on the creative files that are given to me, but I have to build it with clean code, I have to think about the performance. So if I were to create a website and make it very fancy, it might affect performance, because it's taking a lot, a lot of time to load, etc, etc. So I think like working within limitations to create the best product that you can, like, I think that's something that I really enjoy.

Lisa Shen

21:47

Yeah, I think that's a really cool way of thinking about it. And speaking about websites and creating things that are cool, but also work well, I wanted to ask you a bit about your, the two websites that you have for yourself, we're gonna mention them at the end, just kind of as a plug for you. But I was looking at them on my own time. And so you have you have two, you have one that's more focused on your coding work, and more one that's more focused on your medical illustration work? Mm hmm. Yeah. And I was just going through them, and they just look so cool. They just, I was so impressed. And your LinkedIn page is also really, it just is very professional, and it kind of highlights your skills and everything. So I just want to ask you, how did you do that. And

Speaker 1

22:29

I think it all starts like, from school, like in my medical illustration programme, there was actually one course about business. So a lot of it taught us how to brand ourselves. I think that's very important when you're trying to make a website or something that just like, puts you into the internet. As for the websites, my medical solution website was I started making it during my grad school. And we did have a course where the last assignment was to make your website for your career. So that's when that one started. And then when I went to Juneau, um, the last project at Juno was to build your website for web development, which is how I have my second one.

Lisa Shen

23:09

Oh, that's cool. That's cool. So you, actually, and I'm assuming you just kept updating those throughout the years. Yeah. Alright, so I did want to ask you, what the day to day just looks like in your job now and in your role. But also, you did mention that some of the work is around just like the business aspect. So what do you think the divide is between, you know, business marketing yourself versus actually doing the design work? During my full time job or full time or when you're working freelance, like, just what is your week look like? I guess.

Speaker 1

23:39

Yeah. So I think for freelance most of my stuff is set up. Like to be very honest, I don't spend too much effort on it is just basically, if older clients come back, then that's when I usually do my freelance work. But for my full time job, I usually start the day around a 30. We're like, but we're very flexible the team. And then I'm around 10, we have our daily team stand up, which is kind of like a team huddle, where we share, like what we're doing for the day, if we need help, or if we have extra time and such. And then after that I'm kind of heads down for a little bit to work on whatever project that I'm on. And then maybe I'll have a meeting or two throughout the day to talk about the projects with a project specific team. But yeah, and then I would say I spend probably 50 to 75% of my day heads down working on like my project, which is usually coding. Okay,

Lisa Shen

24:33

cool. And how much interaction? Is it just within your team? Or do you have to interact with people in other parts of the company or with clients and things like that? Yeah. So

Speaker 1

24:43

with click, like, click is broken down into many different teams. And then within each team, there's like a technology department, a creative department, UX, etc, etc. So I'm part of a technology department. So that's what when I say my team, I mean it The technology. And then I work with people outside my team like creative and UX based on whatever project I'm working on. So for majority of my meetings I have with outside my team, so the project specific teams, okay. And then depending on the project, your level of interaction with a client also varies. So on my most recent project, the client was very involved. So I got to speak to the client almost every day to talk about like the progress the status and such.

Lisa Shen

25:27

I see. Yeah, it's good to know a bit about that. Yeah. And then what do you think are like some of the things that are more challenging about the position that you're in now? And what do you what are things that you generally like? Or what are your favourite things about the position?

Speaker 1

25:41

Yeah, so I'm very happy with my current position. As a senior web developer, I think something in the technology field that everyone knows is that it's very fast pace, lots of things are changing, new tech is coming out. And I do think keeping up is a slight challenge. But I think that challenge is something I do enjoy about my work.

Lisa Shen

26:04

Yeah. How do you deal with that? How do you stay on top of that tech? What are your strategies for that? Yeah, so

Speaker 1

26:08

a lot of companies do support ongoing learning. So for me, when I first joined, click, I started taking some extra courses on the side, I went to Ryerson for a computer application certificate, I would still be taking courses if they offer the one that I wanted right now. But I guess right now, I'm on hold. But our team also has a lot of like lunch and learns where, you know, different members of the team will discuss the things that they've been reading up on, or something that, you know, they think everyone else would benefit from learning. There's also lots of conferences that often the company well, like that there are also a lot of conferences with a company will send you to or, like, if you express interest in something that you want to learn, the company definitely tries to like help you get there. That's cool.

Lisa Shen

26:57

Yeah, I think it's the same in life science, we're in research, because there's constantly new methods of you know, DNA sequencing coming out, or we're like, you know, CRISPR, which recently came out. So I think when I was a kid, at least when I was like, really young, I always thought of education or jobs as Okay, you go to high school, and then you go to university, and you learn how to do the job. And then you have all the knowledge you needed to do the job. And yeah, for the rest of your life. Yeah, I was definitely under that impression as well. Yeah, right. But I think it's, it's more like, okay, you have the skills, you need to start the job, but then you need to keep learning fast for the rest of your life. Yeah. And

Speaker 1

27:37

I think like, when I was in high school, I like consider computer science for a very brief moment. But then my parents were like, that my parents were like, you have to keep learning this Never gonna stop. But to be honest, I feel like a good industry should be like that. Yeah, like a career where you can grow, which should demand you to keep learning.

Lisa Shen

27:57

And I think it's funny that because they wanted you to be a doctor, but I should hope that doctors are continuously learning as healthcare evolves over 50 years. Oh, for sure.

Speaker 1

28:06

I think they just want him to me to sit in an office and just, you know, like, I don't know what their impression was.

Lisa Shen

28:15

So looking back at like, your whole career trajectory, and all that, is there anything that you would change about how you pursued the position you're in now.

Speaker 1

28:23

So if you told me, if I told me that, like, back in undergrad that I was going to be a web developer, did ID to do an entire life science degree and a master's in art? I feel like if I knew that, at that time, I probably would have switched to computer science to be very honest. But like, I have no regrets. I wouldn't change it. Now. Just because I think those experiences were so valuable for me that, like it made me it really shaped me into who I am. And it really solidified a lot of my interests. So I wouldn't change a personally, but what I recommend this row for someone wanting to be a web developer, probably no.

Lisa Shen

29:05

That's a good answer, kind of on the same lines. If you're looking back or just thinking hypothetically about the future, are there any other kinds of careers that you can see yourself having pursued and also been successful at? And happy in? Oh, interesting

Speaker 1

29:20

question. Because I feel like I've spent so much time debating between medical illustration and web development that I've just never considered anything else. Yeah. So I don't know. I feel like I'm pretty happy with the two choices that I currently have.

Lisa Shen

29:36

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. That's cool. And something we've asked in the past. Is there any advice you would give to a life science student who's interested in this, but I'm just gonna ask you, do you have any advice for me because I'm a little bit interested in medical illustration, like seriously interested, huh? Yeah. So I don't know just do you have any advice for how to determine if it might be a good fit for me and then if I think it is how to go about pursuing that, because I don't have a lot of I haven't really taken any art courses in university, that kind of thing. Yeah, no, I

Speaker 1

30:05

think first of all, that's not too late at all, you definitely can pursue, especially if you know that you're interested. I do think like having a strong interest is a huge benefit. Because you're just going to love what you learn, and you're going to love your experience going through it. But I think one thing I wish people told me was that I think if you're going to be a medical illustrator, you might want to prepare for, like starting your own business or going freelance full time. I think that's something that like, I feel like if I was confident in starting my own business, or just being a full time freelancer, I would have continued to be a medical illustrator. But because I was so determined to have a typical, like, nine to five life, that going into medical illustration, and being in the real world kind of shocked me, right? Which kind of like triggered my transition into a web development,

Lisa Shen

30:55

right? Which is fair, because people go like, Oh, I don't want a nine to five. But there are good things about a nine to five, it's a stable schedule. It's a stable job stable. Yeah.

Speaker 1

31:04

And I think especially when you first graduate, like if you're on your own, it can be really scary. That's true. Yeah. And like another thing, if you're doing work for yourself is like, you also have to manage that to you don't just get to like, be in a world where you're just drawing and research. You also have to, you also have to do the business side, which was something that like I also wasn't prepared for, because I just wanted to be stuck in my own world. And like, create these pieces.

Lisa Shen

31:32

Yeah. Is there anything else you want to add? Before we wrap up?

Speaker 1

31:36

I'm not much from my side. But I love that you guys are doing this. I think if I had a resource like this, when I was in my undergrad, my very windy road, my husband's a lot different. Yeah, like, you guys are doing an amazing job. And thank you so much for having me.

Lisa Shen

31:54

No, thanks for coming. And also for the listeners, we did not pay her to say that. Alright, so just to let the listeners know, if you would like to learn more about Jessica's work, as we mentioned, you can check out coded by jessica.com. That's the website that outlines her skills in web development. And then you can also visit med art by Jessica calm, and that showcases her medical illustration work. And as usual, we will link both of those websites in the show notes. All right. Thank you for chatting with us. Thank you. So we wanted to take this moment to tell you about our Patreon. We're raising funds in order to help pay for our podcast hosting service equipment, upgrades and our own website. If you head on over to patreon.com slash so you got a lifestyle degree, you can view our three membership levels and the cool perks that come with them. For $1 a month, you can access bonus mini casts, which are five to 10 minute episodes where we talk about the interesting shenanigans in our lives, including weird animal discoveries, like the truth behind blobfish. To check out this and our other perks, click on over to patreon.com slash so you got a lifestyle degree. All right, how do you feel? I think that's pretty cool. It's probably going to be one of our more unique interviews compared to like all the other positions we've like, really, why do you say that? It's just so different. Like, I don't know, it's a lot. I guess it's a little bit less on the life side. Sorry. This is a part of things. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Because I mean, we did interview one person who was more on the computer science side before, but that was for one of our practice rounds. Yeah, so but her job was like completely different from my sign. Oh, yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. So yeah, I guess Jessica's still a little bit linked? Yeah. A little bit because she still does freelance work for medical illustration for old clans. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what do you wanna talk about first? Um, I think it's just like such a cool job. Like, yeah, which one the front end web development or the medicals? I think both like anything designing. I'm kind of like, I know, you're like actually considering this. And it's like, I feel like you have a viable it's a viable option for you. Because you are actually I see I'm a viable level of cool for this job. No, I don't think it's based on the coolness, I think is based on your art ability. No, but that's the same as I feel the same thing. Like Jessica said that she felt that her skills were so under what they needed to be when she was applying for the programme, right. Like, I'm even more below that. Like, I'm not really like good at drawing. I just like doodling, you know, and I'm artsy in general, I disagree. I think you're probably at the level that she was at when she was going into the programme because like, I think I could definitely develop my skills if I yeah, like I think if you go through the same thing of like developing your skills, you could get to an adequate level. Because like you do have like a background in like, art and stuff like when you're younger, and also you haven't, like lost those abilities. That's true. Yeah. And I keep With like doing cute little things. Yeah. But like for me, it's not like I have that training at all I just like was like, you know, okay, a drawing like a while ago. But yeah, it's like not vital, but it still sounds so cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think when she said that when she heard the term medical illustration, it just rang true to her. Yeah. I also kind of relate to that, because I kind of had that experience when that Professor Dr. Daniel mentioned, I was like, huh. Yeah, so we'll see. I think for me, I'm thinking, I don't know if it would match with, like, my, my physical abilities. Yeah. It's very hard to dictate drawing. That doesn't really work.

Unknown Speaker

35:45

Yeah. But

Lisa Shen

35:46

yeah, I don't know. Who knows, maybe. Maybe if it works out in my hands get better. Yeah, would be a viable option. I thought one thing that's cool outside of just the work itself is like, how kind of the workflow that she described of like her day just being like, 50 to 70%, like working on a project. And that's like, I feel like that's so different to like, how a lot of knowledge workers work nowadays. Oh, yeah. And the working. Like most people spend all their time just like answering emails or on meetings and stuff like that. So like, I'm, I would be so envious of a job that is just like 50 to 70%, like, getting to work on like, just design stuff. And then also, the other satisfying part of that is that you get to have a finished product. Like, you're like, yeah, I've completed this project. Look at how you can literally visually see how amazing this thing turned out. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess in Reese, something like research, you don't really get that. I mean, you get like a finished paper or finished product. But it's not someone who just looks at it. It's not apparent how like, Cool it is. Yeah. Right. I guess also along the lines of what she does day to day, I thought it was interesting, what you talked about, well, what I really liked was the problem solving component of medical Yeah. And, and I found the same kind of challenge in web development. And I think that's interesting, because like, for example, I remember when I was doing debate, as a club, I was thinking, it's not so much the topics itself that I enjoy talking about, even though I did enjoy that what I loved most about debate was like the logic of it. And I think I see that same logic in research, when you're like, what is a positive control? What is a negative control? Yeah, like, if it does this, but doesn't do that, then this, that means this that kind of thing? Yeah. So I think it's interesting how different like the same way of thinking can be applied to totally different fields. Yeah. That's that's an interesting way of thinking about career choice. Like not like what topics interest you, but what kind of work what kind of way of using your brain interests you? Yeah, totally. I think more broadly, also, I just really like the idea, like using constraints to like, drive, either creativity or like, your way of working through things to kind of give structure to your work, I guess. Yeah, I just think that's interesting. Huh. It is a little disconcerting to hear about the jobs thing, though. I didn't know that it was was so hard to find work in. But I assume because the number of graduate sees each year was so tightly controlled. I thought that the jobs would be easier to find, but I suppose not according to her recount of it. Yeah, totally. It's like, I think that's the part that would be most off putting for a career like this for me, because I definitely, you know, like, knowing that I have a stable work. And yeah, being in a constant influx of when is my next client going to be there? That's something else.

Unknown Speaker

38:49

Yeah. pretty

Lisa Shen

38:50

stressful. Right? That's something you definitely don't want. Yeah, yeah. But also, on the flip side, to be devil's advocate for a minute there. I think the stability of a job is just like a little bit of a comforting lie. Like, I don't think there's as much stability as people truly think like, it's not like in a job, you can just prop your feet up like there is some level of right, you should be constantly like, oh, a little bit. Yeah. on your toes, for sure. Right. You don't want to get too comfortable. But my mom worked at Ford, for doing it for them for their website, or you know, various things. Yeah. And she worked there for 10 years doing contract work, but her contract was renewed every year. And she got pretty comfortable on the job. And she enjoyed it. She liked her coworkers there. And then they outsource everything to India. So they basically, you know, let off everyone on her floor. And she had to learn a bunch of the new programming languages and tech that had like popped up in the last 1015 years since she had been keeping up with you know, the new stuff, right. So yeah, but you know, she was able to do it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, talking about the job stability. thing I think I do want. I don't know, I'm kind of torn. To be honest, I can see myself living both lives. I actually kind of like the university lifestyle where you have a bit of a schedule, but it's not the same every day. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like the ideal state is like, for me at least it's like, I don't think I would want full autonomy over my schedule. But I also wouldn't want a lot of like someone else controlling Yeah, yeah. So I think like, yeah, the university professor schedule is like, amazing, because it's like, you still have this structure of competition. And like these things driving you to structure your day a little bit, but it's not like every minute is like dictated by someone else. Yeah, I suppose. So. Yeah. I think I'm that same way with my university course selection to what I liked about my programme. I was like, okay, it's not like a lifestyle where I choose literally all my courses. But it's also I still get some choice. Yeah, I think that's good for me. Yeah. It's too stressful. There was. Yeah. But it was interesting what you said that if you are okay, with starting your own business, or with having less job stability, you can, you know, still get a career in medical illustration, she made it seem like she just wasn't really suited or wasn't really, you know, into that kind of lifestyle, which is why she kind of transitioned. Yeah, I think part of it might be like, just like, preparing yourself for that mindset. But going back to like, what your mom like about the story about your mom, and you know, all the new tech and stuff that advanced while she was working in that position. One thing that Jessica was talking about was how they keep up with new tech in their field. And one thing that I thought was really interesting is how like team oriented that is, so it's not just you going to figure out what's new. It's like, it's very driven by the community that she's a part of in her company. Right, right. Yeah. And I think that really does make a big difference. And you see that in research all the time with your professors, if you like a TED talks and stuff like that, like that's a way easier way to learn things. I feel like because I just feel like my brain power is like, multiplied by time when I'm like around other people. Yeah, I think it's just it really drives your skills forward. Much faster than having to go through everything alone. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Because when it's just the culture of the company, that everyone is constantly learning thing, it's like, almost kind of like part of the job. Exactly. Yeah. Especially when it's integrated into your day. Like you can do it during your like, lunchtime. Just like how I go to a college do seminars during my lunch times, you know? Yeah, well, what a flex it's not, I'm not even inequality, I just go cuz I think animals are cute. And I like learning about birds. Literally, we've talked about this, we've talked about this. The seminars have taught me that I am interested in in ecological evolutionary research, but I don't want to do it myself. But I will continue to go because animals are cute. And because I can actually follow those talks while also eating a sandwich. Yeah. I'm like, say What now? Yeah. Full energy, focus, full, full energy focus and still lost after five minutes. Yeah, I feel like in like mobile kind of seminars, you really need to have some domain knowledge. Otherwise, you're so lost. Right? Like they just can't catch you up in the five minutes. intro. Yeah, yeah. Whereas someone in the college can be like, this is the yellow beaked warbler. He does.

Lisa Shen

43:33

Yeah, and you're like, all right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I find it pretty reassuring that you mentioned different kinds of medical illustration work that aren't just human anatomy. Yeah, I think that if I was going to go into this field, I would be interested in the molecular animation, I would definitely be interested in the animation part. And in the interactive stuff, even though I feel like that's a bit of a dangerous territory, because I feel like that would probably involve coding. Yeah, I think realistically, like if you're gonna go into this field, I don't think you can actually avoid quoting, like, I do think it's going to become a significant part of your job. That's very true. Yeah. But I thought it was so amusing that I wasn't aware that she does things for like children or for the public that are more like cute and not like, what is this structure of the body? Yeah, right. Right. I think we might have forgotten to mention this while we were talking in the interview. But a good example of interactive technology is this COVID 19 visualisation tool that I saw some months back on Facebook, and I shared it on my page. And it's just really cool. It's just a really good way to visualise the cases that you just can't do with a static diagram. Yeah. And I am going to link that in the show notes because it's really cool. You should check it out. Yeah, there's a lot of data visualisation stuff I've been super into. I mean, we could technically link some but yeah, like, even outside of just science. Like the there's a 538 is I don't know if they're like necessarily a new site, but they do a lot of visualisation, it start out for sports, but then it became like more politics based. But yeah, they're really interesting. And I like their art style. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Again, all like, you know, stuff on the computer all seems like it would involve coding. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like so much of my goals in being a life science person is to not end up doing coding. That's like, Yeah, but I really don't think okay, but like, full time, like, I don't want to become like a full time. Like, that's like my main thing. I don't mind if I'm doing science. And I do like 20% coding on the side. Okay. That's why it wasn't my job. But I just don't want to be like, Oh, I did this. And then that led me to this. And now I do coding. That's for like, Yeah, I think that's a realistic goal. Like 20%. Sure, yeah. Yeah. And again, not that I think that's a bad job. Obviously, it's not. Um, but you know, I just for me, I don't think I would be happy. So, yeah, yeah, the Apple is trying to fall as far away from the tree as Balian? Yeah. Well, yeah. I guess I'll play the flip side is that Yeah, I've been getting a little bit into coding, and I'm loving it so far. So just really, yeah, that, yeah, I did a little bit of coding. And I thought it was kind of interesting. But then it got hard. And I was like, I'm out. Yeah, it is a lot of just banging your head against like the wall. Yeah, it's, it's frustrating. Yeah. It's kind of like, you know, what, you're doing a physics problem. And then it's like a bunch of calculations, like 20 calculations to get the answer. And you do all the calculations, and you get the answer, and it's wrong, and you realise you did something, you did something wrong. And like the first three calculations, so you redo those, and you redo the whole thing and still wrong. And you repeat that like several times until you finally get to the right answer. Yeah, but somehow I do that a lot. I still find it more fun than like physics. Really, I actually I liked physics. I don't know. Yeah, I think there is also I like the culture like of, I guess, people like programming culture and stuff like that, where it's a lot more like people willing to help each other. For some reason in science, like when you ask someone about what the research is, and I mean, usually, these are like students in the labs and stuff. It's very like highbrow like, Oh, this is my research, and I'm gonna explain it to you, but you're definitely not gonna understand. And I'm gonna feel great. You're not understanding. There's this like, perverse mentality. Whereas programming people, everyone that I've interacted with so far, so the people I've interacted with, so far, so willing to help and like, I feel like that's a strong part of the community. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I can relate a bit to the like, head. Hi, yeah. Anything else you want to talk about? No, I think I'm good. That is a wrap. So this week, we are introducing a new segment to our podcast, which is the trivia question. We've asked Jessica, our guests to come up with a wacky, quirky little trivia question that we can read right now on the show. And we will also post it on our Facebook and our Twitter pages. We'll give you a week to think about the answer. Maybe vote on what you think. And then a week later, we will release the answer on those same social media pages. So here's our question for this week.

Lisa Shen

48:29

Right so this week's question is, what does the term rubber ducking refer to? A the badly articulated questions a junior developer asks when first starting out in their career as it just sounds like quack quack quack. Be the practice of sketching Rubber Ducks to improve one's knowledge of perspective. See, the practice of describing your problems to a rubber duck in hopes of arriving at a solution after speaking out loud? D the method of cleaning one's acrylic paint brushes by allowing them to float on water letting the paint dissolve over time. Which one could it be? Let us know what you think on Facebook and Twitter. This has been Episode Three of so you got a lifestyle degree with Jessica Zhang about medical illustration and web design. We want to give special thanks to our crew of lovely patrons including our little leaf patron nyeem. If you would like to support this podcast, you can visit our patreon@patreon.com slash so you got to lightside degree or leave us a review on iTunes using the link in the show notes. The music you're listening to is no regrets from audio hub.com Thanks for listening and see you next time.

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