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Episode 5: Neocolonialism in the Digital Era [Mariana] | Otter.ai

Episode 5: Neocolonialism in the Digital Era [Mariana]

Mariana Peña34min

Mariana Peña

00:00

Hello, everybody. We're super happy to be here again, welcome to this podcast. My name is Mariana Pena. I'm an instructional designer and an IP consultant for experts who want to build online courses to change the world. And I am today with my co host, Danbee. So happy to see you again.

Danbee Shin

00:20

And you always. I'm Danbee Shin. I'm a mentor for web designers and a global inclusion specialist. And I am, I can't wait to get into this topic. I'm also a little what's the word? I don't have the right word. It's not anxious. It's not just like I have a lot of energy around this term. And today, we're talking all about neocolonialism.

Mariana Peña

00:43

We should start by explaining to our friends, what do we understand when we say Neo colonialism? Because again, we're using one of these concepts and words that might feel a little bit academic, a little bit too formal. And it's not our intention to use words that are just going to detract us from doing the work. So how would you explain neocolonialism? For me,

Danbee Shin

01:12

it just means that we are continuing to impose the same systems of oppression that are a result of colonialism. So all the inequitable practices, the destructive, the inhumane, the unequal and unjust systems that we associate with colonialism. Neocolonialism is just us replicating those systems in today's world, where we think of our world as a post colonial era, but you are not you. And I know that colonialism continues in formal structures, but also in formal structures.

Mariana Peña

01:49

One of the differences that we can find between colonialism and what we are now going through is that colonialism didn't have online world. I don't know what has more impact. If that era, or the fact that we are just reinforcing the structures that were created back then. But now not only in the real world, we are also doing it online. And when we are doing things online, as usual, we can hide behind a lot of things. So that's where the tricky part comes in. Let's bring it from the abstract to the concrete world, let's dive into some terms or some examples of direct neocolonial practices that are prevalent right now, especially amongst our friends and colleagues and others that are not so friends and colleagues that are running online businesses, I know we have so many, but just a few examples. Something

Danbee Shin

02:51

that's been on my mind a lot are these business retreats that take place in your popular tropical destinations, like Bali, and in parts of Mexico are also very popular, and how people tend to take over these places like they own the place. These are businesses that run online and have real on the ground impact. I would also say a lot of these coaching businesses that we see are spreading the same harm, because under the guise, because coaching is not regulated, right? So anyone can be a coach doing anything. And I've worked with some really great coaches, but they're also really awful examples where, because people are in that position of power, they use it to just come from a place of I know best, I have the right answers, you need to listen to me, you need to learn from me, if you disagree with me, you're wrong. This just reeks of like a colonial era type of messaging. And the

Mariana Peña

03:53

reason we say that is just reinforcing the structures that were put into place back in colonial times is because historically, these empires went out to the world to quote unquote, discover new places. And as they say, Bring civilization to them, bring them gospel, because it was also about indoctrination, religious indoctrination. And basically we know that it was not in good faith, we know that it was exploitation at its core. They created a system in the world where these empires were looked to as being the ones that were intelligent, the ones that knew about the world, the ones who who were civilized, and their ways and their beliefs were imposed onto the rest of the planet. Now we know that is not the case that a lot of ancestral wisdom and knowledge and a lot of health practices that were far way developed than what these empires had, were destroyed and erased in this process. And we would like to think that when these colonial period ended that the practice of erasure also ended. That is not the case. What Dombey here is talking about is one of the some of those examples, people running online businesses where they take over these, quote unquote, exotic places. And you we have had many conversations around the term exotic, which is just this term is just a way of saying they are not Western white, European, Western white places by doing so they're not doing it in a conscious way. They are taking advantage of passper privilege privilege to go there stay there sometimes overstay their visa is with absolute no consequence whatsoever, gentrify in locations, that has a very negative impact in the communities. They're driving up the market for houses but also for food and resources in general, and not giving back because whatever they are earning is not staying in the community. And I feel that is a big part of what this neocolonialism is about is extracting again, but this guy's empowerment, empowerment, mindset retreats, self development, self development, that's it disguised as self development. And again, with the idea of, oh, if we are doing here, we are also helping these communities that's not giving

Danbee Shin

06:47

back to the economy they meet, we're giving people jobs. Yeah. And this happens, everywhere and wish that people were doing it in more responsible ways. I have always lived in very tourist heavy parts of the world. I grew up in Sri Lanka, spent a lot of time in Singapore, Indonesia, these countries, a lot of their income does come from tourism, I'm not saying don't participate in the tourist industry, I'm saying let's be a little more conscious, and how especially in our businesses, we're bringing in other people to amplify that effect. Let's do it in a more conscious way, where you really think about the people who own the land that you're visiting their cultures, their practices, their well being, because that is not what's happening. Instead of saying

Mariana Peña

07:38

these are conquers the way we in Mexico talk about all the period where the Spanish crown came to Mexico, we now refer them this was a conquest this was conquered. This was not discovery of any kind. But of course, if now we say that this is digital nomads, let's get that adventurous foreigners when I learned to write now, if you go to America, and you are enrolled in the in the Mexican education system, and you learn about Nomad, tribes and populations, it's nothing cute to talk about. There's always this hint of are these people knew nothing about the world, they couldn't even build a house. What do you mean, they couldn't settle? Because we are still carrying on this Eurocentric narrative, right? If you don't build the church, then there's nothing to build and you were not civilized. So it is very interesting to me that now we're taking this word Nomad, we plastering digital in front of it, and all of a sudden is a white term, that it's attached to money. These are money making people who get to do this, they get to be digital nomads. How wonderful is that? Let's

Danbee Shin

08:56

talk about passport privilege. Because you brought this up a couple of minutes ago, and I don't know that this is something that a lot of people know about. If

Mariana Peña

09:04

you don't know about this. You have passport. Yeah.

Danbee Shin

09:12

That that is exactly what I meant. If you have a weak passport, you know,

Mariana Peña

09:16

I now hold two passports, which is the biggest cognitive dissonance in my existence. I hold a Mexican Mexican passport and I hold a Dutch passport within the global cells. I'm going to say like that. That Mexican passport is not that bad. We have privilege compared to other South American passports compared to African passports compared to some Asian vestment. Not all of them. If you look into the rank Mexico is not that bad. But just with our upstairs neighbor. We have no coverage whatsoever. It is a pain in the ass to be able to enter the United States. It's not be seen as a criminal passport privilege you being able to, when you want, and you have the means to travel the world not have to worry about, am I going to be able to enter that country? No, I have hundreds 1000s. What exactly do I have to process a visa for a one time entry, and that visa is going to cost me hundreds of American dollars to do so how long is that going to take. And sometimes even when you have the money to pay for the visa, you are not granted the visa, just because your country of origin. I know. For example, I think you also experienced this when you were incorporated Thembi when I was part of faculty in the university in Mexico, where I worked at, it was a thing for some of my colleagues to volunteer themselves for trainings in the US. Because they knew

Danbee Shin

10:59

that get a multi entry visa.

Mariana Peña

11:02

They didn't, they didn't hold a multi entry visa, which I did. And getting a single entry visa was going to be so expensive and so tedious. And just because they were teachers could still be denied, because it means that you could apply for the fellowship that they had where they hired teachers to teach Spanish to the immigrant population. So by doing that, you could potentially overstay your visa and then becoming they always think that everybody wants to be part of the country. But going back to the passport, yes, but going back to the passport, that's what it means. If you've never experienced it, congratulations, you have it. But I bet that the people who are here with us have been in the position of thinking, Am I going to be able to get that visa?

Danbee Shin

11:49

Okay, so I will say South Korea has a very powerful passport in terms of travel, I think we're in the top two or three if you count the number of countries that you can go into visa free. And I've always meant to look into how the Korean government has made this possible. It's something I keep thinking about and never get around to, because I think there must be so many interesting inter governmental stories behind it. So I have an immense passport privilege. I don't have to think about getting a visa for most places. And when I do I catch myself because I'm like, I have to apply for a visa and pay. And this normally only happens if I want to go to China, because of the complicated kind of where neighboring countries, China and South Korea have a very complicated relationship. So China is one of those countries where I do need to plan ahead if I want to visit and go apply for a visa go turn my passport in. I hate giving my passport to anyone. I think this comes from living in lots of countries outside of South Korea and knowing that my passport is safety, but that's a topic for another day. I know that if my husband has a business trip, and I want to tag along and make it an extended holiday, I don't have to think whether I can hop into a country just for a quick stay. I don't have to plan ahead. I don't have to think about are they going to let me in? How much do I have to pay? Do I have to go to the embassy? Like how long is that going to take? What forms do I have to fill out? Yeah, and that that gives me immense privilege. The thing in my mind was you saying it brings you so much cognitive dissonance to have two passwords. I would love to hear more about that. But for me, South Korea doesn't allow dual citizenship. If and when my husband and I have kids, they will need to decide before they turn whatever that age is when they are no longer minors to choose, they will need to choose a passport. In a way I'm I'm almost grateful that they don't allow it because if they did, I would totally get a second passport. And the fact that I can just say, Oh, I would get a second passport, I know is also speaking from such a position of privilege. But I almost like I'm glad that's not an option because I don't have to think about it. But yeah, it also happened when I decided to move to Switzerland, right? My husband got a job offer. It was a really good offering. We'd always said we wanted to live in Switzerland. He's half Swiss. I had a lot of questions for us. But will I get a visa was not one of those questions. Even if there was a process for a long term visa, I had a lot of confidence that this was not going to be a problem. And I know that's not true for people from certain African countries, certain Southeast Asian countries, like the number of hoops you have to jump through. That's so

Mariana Peña

14:39

interesting, because here we are having a conversation. And you could think that our experiences were similar because we both moved to Europe with a spouse from Europe and I feel like they could not be so different. Because of I'm like I'm Mexican, right? So at every single step of my process As I was in fear of I'm going to get rejected. I'm going to, I'm going to get denied. And for my husband, that was never the case, he was more concerned about oh my god, the amount of paper that we have to collect and just not missing a step in the process. But yeah, I think this is a conversation that we definitely need to duck like, on its own episode, because it's so interesting. And it is a dissonance for me, because after living my life for 32 years, in that fear of I'm gonna get rejected just because who I am and where I come from. When I finally got the Dutch passport, I felt Wait, so I can just move around now. Is that a thing? So now friends, online friends that I have are doing networking events in London. And with that, like a hesitation in my mind, I'm like, I'll be there no problem. And I know for my fellow Mexican people who are here, that might not be as easy, like they still have to go through. So they might it depends on their status here, right? It depends. And going back to the point of this of neocolonialism in online business, we're talking about digital nomads. We are talking about passport privilege, and how that completely shapes how you present yourself and your online business. How about freelance platforms?

Danbee Shin

16:26

Oh my god, I hate them. I, my mentorship clients come to me until tell me about their awful experiences working trying to get gigs on Fiverr Upwork 99 designs. I've never heard a positive story. Honestly, I've never heard a story where they were treated like human beings with dignity as business owners. Even if people have gotten projects that help them make ends meet it temporarily. Maybe I should rewind a little bit freelance platforms are often designed. I think they're all American as well. This is a whole nother topic that the online platforms that we use for our businesses are created by companies in the West. And they hold all the power when it comes to how they work, how the algorithms work, who gets elected, like what the processes are for getting a job, but on these freelance platforms, they're presented as really great marketplaces. Because if you have a service that you offer, we can connect you with clients. If you have projects where you need to outsource certain work, we have a whole platform of freelancers who are willing to work, but because they're so impersonal because they are they there's no opportunity to an A have a one on one personal relationships with the people that you're doing business with. And because we live in a capitalist world where the person holding the money has more power, people doing the hiring tend to have more power. And freelancers end up just being numbers on a screen kind of It's a race to the bottom, it often comes down to how cheapen your services be most people who are looking to hire someone that they respect as a specialist as an expert in their field are not looking to hire on these platforms. And the reason that I connect this with neocolonialism is because this is, colonialism was all about looking at black and brown people as resources to exploit to extract. And that's exactly what's happening here

Mariana Peña

18:31

that's insidious. Again, it's this guy says platforms for opportunity. And I always want to think like the best of things, try my best to who think maybe the they did mean well. But even when we are trying our best, if we are not aware of these biases, if we're not aware of the historic context of colonialism and the impact that it has had on the entire globe, then what we're doing is just replicating structures and systemic oppression, like you said, for the exploitation of black and brown bodies. And whether those black and brown bodies are being exploited face to face or behind the screen with a keyboard. The end result is the same. You're still doing the same, you're still exploiting, there's a reason why there are all these people trying to counteract that right like you will be in one of them. Trying to say no, come here. I believe in your expertise. I believe in your skill set. I believe in your experiences. Let me just show you a way where you don't have to overwork yourself in order to provide for your family and for yourself. So that is a clear example of how neocolonialist way of thinking is still operating very much alive and shaping how our online business can operate in the world. Old. Another one that is not as insidious as this freelance platforms. But it's very much real is the fact that business mentors and business coaches teaching you how to grow your business are eventually going to teach you that you need to contract and you need to hire people. And you need to do so cheap so you can keep your profit margins. If that is not exploitation at its core. I don't know what is. Or

Danbee Shin

20:33

the OG of this, at least for me is Tim Ferriss. He's super well known. I found him through the four hour workweek when I first started looking at how to work for myself. But this is what I was, I was probably getting burned out without realizing it because burnout was not a turn back when I was experiencing it. In the corporate world, it sounded amazing, right? How do you build a four hour workweek? If you've seen this book, I think you might be able to picture it's like a blue and orange on a back on a white background. It's a picture of a hammock. I think this is also first, when people started romanticizing the life of a digital nomad. You can work anywhere like with your laptop, and usually it's on a beach in a country where you have gone in without paying for any kind of visas. And the more you're exploiting the local tourism industry, he gives you scripts for how to hire virtual assistants, and how to explain what you want them to do in an email. And for me back then, it sounded really smart. It sounded like Oh, of course, this is how because I value transparency and clear communication. I'm like, Okay, I like how he's laying this out. This is how you communicate with the VA. So that you can explain what you're trying to achieve. And the more people you have working for you, the less off of your plate. And the model is eventually you build a system where you can offload everything on other people. And invariably, these virtual assistants are in countries like the Philippines, I think the Philippines comes up a lot because it is because of colonialism. A widely English speaking country, I forget what he was saying you are charging them but definitely less than 10 US dollars an hour. For me, that's Oh, gee, this is how you build your business online

Mariana Peña

22:22

thing is that it just expands and all of a sudden, it becomes the norm. And this

Danbee Shin

22:27

was obviously bad. I had no idea how terrible this was. When I first encountered it. I thought it was like the smartest thing. But now of course, I see what you're doing when you are contracting out your work to people who are not being fairly compensated for the work that they're delivering. You're not hiring partners and employees who are invested like who you are thinking of part of your team. You're offloading work you don't want to do to people, you don't see us people.

Mariana Peña

22:54

It is baffling to me how we are in today's world where we know for a fact, how big companies, or how big brands operate, whether they are a luxury brand, or footwear brand or sport clothing, it doesn't matter. We know that these global brands have built their billions on the back of exploiting women, children, black brown bodies. And there has been so much work around that. So much effort put into exposing these practices, so much effort into holding them accountable, trying to and trying to instill this, this idea of sustainable businesses, eco practices, all of this comes from the work of all of these activists, right? It's baffling to me that in this day and age, we know this to be true and still applaud our business mentor that is saying, just hire VA from the Philippines, you can pay her because it's usually here, you can pay her $6 Maybe you can give her a bonus for Christmas. And I'm here in the end that way. The reason I'm here and this is not because these are my business mentors is because a lot of my clients come burned from being part of these programs where this is part of the teachings and they are here having these conversations with me. They say I cannot say why but it doesn't feel good to me. I can tell you why it doesn't feel good to me. You don't accept that I'm gonna be telling you that is neocolonialism. Part of that messaging

Danbee Shin

24:35

is also a look how you're supporting these poor women. You're helping you're empowered. You're empowering women to support their families to be the breadwinner. I honestly this kind of like white savior mentality makes me feel sick because while you're exploiting someone you're saying, Oh, but I'm saving them like I'm helping them and If I didn't provide these jobs these women have would have nothing. Look at what alternatives they have. This is the best thing that they've got. And I'm doing something really good by providing this opportunity. And this idea that, I mean, this is straight out of colonialist mindset, right, we need to save them. They don't know God, and we will bring God to them, they have no education will bring education to them, they have no health will bring our health services, health care, and medicine to them. And this belief that they need to take action, they need to go and help these people. Because otherwise they have nothing. They don't know how to take care of themselves. They don't know how to build an economy, their country is what the Trump say, a shithole.

Mariana Peña

25:44

We can go on and on with the list of real examples of how colonialism is still being perpetrated to they knowingly and unknowingly by a lot of us, because we all participate into this structures and systems of power. But for the people that are still with us right now, what would you say Danby, that is a step they can take in this journey of the colonizing, how they run their business, this

Danbee Shin

26:14

feels almost a cliche, but it always starts with awareness. Right? I think it's hard to it's impossible to change things that you're not aware of. You said something interesting about how you know this is being taught in the business world. And that's because you have clients who come to you who wants something different because their gut tells them this is not the right way to treat human beings. And they're coming to you to learn like how do I create programs that feel good for everyone? And so I think it'd be to look at the practices that you have in your business right now and think about why do I run my business this way? Like, when did I make this decision? Where did that come from? Did I learn it from someone? Does it feel good? Do I have good reasons to back it up? The thing that I've had to learn the most is to trust my gut. And I think this is something that I really had to work on as a business owner, because all of a sudden, I don't have a manager, I don't have an employer who set the rules for me, I need to decide what's right. And checking in with your gut is important. A lot of these practices that we've talked about today involve working with other people, right, because it's about looking at other people, acknowledging them as individuals as human beings with full lives. If you're working with someone else in your business, whether you're hiring a contractor, whether you're looking at hiring someone to help you with something, whether you're looking at outsourcing, whether it's looking for a business coach, I would just really look at who you're considering, and why those people

Mariana Peña

27:45

that applies to almost everyone. Regardless of where you are in your business journey. If you consider you're just starting things out, or you're more advanced, and you're looking into how to grow, how to create a team how to expand your audience, awareness is a key factor and trusting your gut is so important, we have been trained to disregard our instincts. And that could turn into very dangerous situations for everyone. What I would say is for people who are listening to this and are looking into growing their business, the recommended way online is to do so via education is being taught right now that once you hit a certain income or revenue level, you can now transition into being an educator rather than a consultant, for example. So now you can teach others what you learned along the way. And that way, you can increase your profit margins. And while this is true, and I believe education can change the world, education could change the world only if that education is being passed on in a conscious way. So again, for people out there who are looking into creating learning products, digital products, group programs, online courses, masterminds, coaching containers, in general, I just want to invite you to think about two things First, to look at what you are teaching and give proper credit to the source. So if you're teaching a concept and that concept didn't come from your brain is not your intellectual property. Please acknowledge and attribute to the original creator, the original author, the original thinker, that is a very small act of resistance to colonialism. That is one way where you can become an honest person who is saying to their students, clients and community in general, a I believe that we all create this collectively. So this didn't come from me this come from this other person and That is okay. You don't have to be the know it all. So that is the first thing. And the second thing is, whatever it is that you're teaching that came from you like your intellectual property, the one that you created, I want to invite you to question yourself. And that looks like, for example, one of the things that I believe in is, there is no right answer for anything. There's no one single way of doing things. And I teach that I say that to my clients, whenever I'm a guest expert at masterminds. I say that, and there's a reason for that. The reason why I say that is because I know that it is very ingrained in white supremacy is ingrained in colonialism and neocolonialism to pretend and think that this is the only way. My way is the only way my way is the Enlightened path. Right, my God is the God, my gospel, you have to go through me I am the point of contact, I am your savior, that is where it comes from. So the reason I say there's no single answer to our problems, there's no right answer we can get there from many different points of entry is because that is my little act of resistance. I want to invite everyone to feel that they have self agency to discover that. And if they feel that they need guidance, I'm there I can share what I know. But right now, at this point, the circumstance that we're leaving, it is particular and unique to you. Again, the first thing would be attributed proper credit to the authors and original thinkers of what you're teaching. And the second is from your own IP, the one that you came up with, ask yourself, Where does that come from? Where does that idea come from? And whether or not that is reinforcing any type of oppression. This is serious work. It is. And I am by no means the expert. I think we both come from a place of worship, we're having this conversation because we see it all the time. Our clients talk about this, our friends and colleagues talk about this, we observe things happening online. And if we don't have these conversations, then we're not naming things. We're not bringing awareness to things and then we cannot fix them, we cannot improve at all. This is just an invitation to everybody that is here with us right now to take a look at their own practices and see where they can infuse little acts of resistance. I love

Danbee Shin

32:38

calling it out to your small your little acts of resistance because it feels good to to do something quick and to acknowledge it. Thank you so much for talking to me about all these things we covered so much from what neocolonialism is to passport privilege. I feel like that's a conversation to be continued to white savior ism, and how all of these things show up in the online business world. As always Mariana and I want to hear from you. We would love we would love it if you shared what you thought what came up for you as you listen to our conversation, whether that's in the comments, or in the DMS, I am always curious to see how these topics land because it's one of those things. Maybe you've been thinking about it but just not had someone to talk about it with. Or maybe it's not a thing. It's just like a fleeting thought. And I love getting to talk to her money on it because I get to come and ask her if this happened. What do you think what was that? Am I just not seeing it? So yeah, I hope that this is what that is for you too.

Mariana Peña

33:48

And if you would like to continue your work, you are a course creator or you are a freelancer or a business owner, looking for mentorship. Danby has an amazing mentorship program. If you're looking to transition your one on one client to a group offer I would love to work with you because clearly you agree with what we have been discussing. Our values are aligned and I would love to support your transition into becoming an educator. See you next time.

Danbee Shin

34:18

Bye

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