Edwin, Okay, hi everyone. It's Edwin Rutsch from the empathy Center, and today I'm very pleased to be with Kevin Waltman, thanks Kevin for joining me for this dialog.
Of course, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
And I wanted to just give a little background about yourself, which you can add to this is from the article you wrote. It says you're a psychological researcher studying the intersection of empathy, ideological extremism and social influence, and you spent years analyzing the mechanisms by which belief systems spread and take hold. And you're affiliated with a couple of different universities, and you recently wrote an opinion piece in the Chicago came out in the Chicago Tribune and several other places entitled The dangerous consequences of radical empathy unchecked by reason. And so we're here to talk about your article, and I'll just introduce myself. I'm the director of the empathy center, so I've been working for about 15 years on this topic of empathy, which you wrote about, and I'm coming from the position that we need to make empathy a primary social value in the country and the world for that matter. So looking forward to talking to you. You You know about your article, and do you want to add anything in terms of introducing yourself?
Well, I will say I agree with you that I want, I believe empathy should be more like a global kind of prerequisite to, you know, functioning life and society, and a requirement, really, and what makes us good people to each other.
I think that the conclusions that I've come to, which is, it's fairly new, it actually is Since 2023 but I've been doing a little bit of research for the past five years on this.
It's more
that empathy, which I believe is is very important for human beings, is something that we, like any other human faculty, as I write about, it, can be manipulated and weaponized against us and result in the opposite of what we're actually seeking when we ask for empathy from others. So it's kind of where, where I approach the piece from, and I have a couple other things that are in the works. And so that's kind of what brought me there, specifically, like the October 7 incidences on college campuses. Yeah, so you're talking about
how empathy was used by, guess, like ideological extremists, political extremists, and you're kind of explaining how you feel, that it's the those extremists use empathy to kind of bring people into their worldview, and kind of keep them in it, and keep, you know, bring them into more of an extremist position. And I one of the things I find is that it's so confusing when we talk about empathy, it's like, even among the academics, it's like the definition is kind of all over the place.
So with in terms of your criticisms of empathy, for me, it's actually what you're criticizing is a lack of empathy. And so I thought maybe we could go into some of some of the details, if you want to continue some of the of your of your argument or points that you want to make. So that's actually, that's right, I think so I believe that this kind of performative empathy is what I'm trying to shed light on. And I believe that it is part of like a Western guilt situation that we're dealing with, where there are extremists that I happen to personally witness in Dearborn, Michigan, which is what led to this whole chapter of my life
where they're weaponizing our obsession with empathy to the point where It's actually turning us against ourselves, and it's it's resulting in, like, what I refer to as like taking cover for the extremists to kind of come in, and they're infiltrating themselves into American society, particularly in the higher education system, where they're going to
gain more and more power before it's and I believe that we can stop this before it's too late. In my opinion, empathy in its healthiest form, which is
the ability, obviously, to understand and share another person's feelings.
It well maintaining cognitive distance, it assesses the situation critically. So like in a normal situation, I can feel for you, but I also understand that I have to assess things and have a critical eye. Radical empathy, by contrast, collapses all of that distance so it demands total emotional identification with others,
to the point where.
Questioning or withholding any allegiance is seen as morally wrong or even dangerous, especially on the college campus environment. So it turns empathy from a tool of connection for human beings into a mandate for ideological loyalty. That's kind of what I'm identifying here in my research. Well, let me just I had sent you a link to the how I'm defining empathy. So I find it's good if when we start off, we're saying what our terms are, so that we can kind of compare and see where they overlap, or where they're perhaps don't. And I don't know if you you were able to see the definition, but I call it the holistic empathy definition model, and the first part is the empathy is the sensing into another person's experience. So as I'm listening to you here, I'm sensing into you, know, how you your views, how you feel about them, kind of what's important to you. So I'm paying attention, I'm being present, and I'm sensing into your experience. So it's sort of the process of sensing into your experience.
Then there's another that's kind of like a basic empathy. The other part of empathy is the self empathy. So sensing into my own experience. And by the way, the sensing into that I was the first definition is sort of based on the work of Carl Rogers. I don't know if you're familiar with him, if you're in psychology, studying psychology, or probably his work, and he did a lot of work on empathy, so that's sort of what I'm basing that basic definition on. And then there's the self empathy, sensing into your own experience, you know, being aware of what your feelings and and thoughts and your whole
personal experience is, and so it's like a deep form, a deeper form of listening to myself and to you.
And then another part that I try to separate that direct sensing into someone's experience is what I call imaginative empathy. So I can imagine myself being in any situation, you know, I could be imagine myself being an Israeli soldier, or I can imagine myself being, you know, a Palestinian person, or I can imagine myself being an animal. I can imagine myself in any situation. So I call that imaginative empathy, which is different from just sensing into other people's experiences. I know it's a little complicated, but I just about 15 years of working. I like the imaginative one. That's, that's something that we I wish I could possess more of that. Actually, I should work on that. Yeah, it's like, it's like role playing, like an actor, like, you know, Meryl Streep, she takes on the role of Julia Child, or Margaret Thatcher, and you set into that role. And then you could be wrong, though, about what you're sensing of the other person. And then, but then, or you could be right too. And the last part is the holistic empathy is the relationship, the mutuality of the relationship. So you and I are here together. We're in a relationship, listening to each other, you know, dialoguing. And it's the quality of our mutual empathy with each other that we're both empathic, listening, willing to listen to each other, but being present. And you can be in a group, and you know, we have something called an empathy circle, four people that five people in a group, and we use active listening to dialog with each other. So that's sort of the the framework that I'm using for empathy. And I think if we look at the things you're criticizing, you'll see that those, for example, oppressor, you know, victim oppressor mindset, they don't really fit in there. It's actually the antidote, I see as the antidote to that victim oppressor mindset.
Yeah, yeah. I think that unfortunately, this new age of this victim, victimizer, oppressor, oppressed is like a huge tool in this whole problem.
And, you know, it becomes now like this radicalized empathy is become sort of like a psychological mechanism by which emotional alignment is weaponized, especially among these emerging adults. So it drives an ideological conformity without any critical analysis, which is the sad thing, because you want to believe, especially on college campuses, that we're such critical thinkers, you know, we're open minded, and we want to learn from each other, when really what the the the aim of this radical empathy is to have zero ability to do that, but to kind of masquerade as somebody who is very performative in their their feelings for other people. It's where we pity somebody to a point.
Is so toxic that will just hate others who disagree or who want to be more enlightened on the topic, which does take a lot of time understanding, especially culture, is a very long chore to do. I mean, it takes a lot of listening and a lot of discomfort, and unfortunately, we're using this radicalized empathy, meaning,
act without thinking in a way where it's you can't even there the entire Act is a performance, meaning like, if I'm trying to have a conversation with a college a grad student, about anything in the let's just say cultural, anything cultural on any side, and they disagree, it's their instinct is immediately to say that it's a I have a dangerous perspective and like what you're saying is we need to think about what the person's lived experience is, which is how I I've been begging People on north Northwestern at the University of Michigan,
we should have conversations among the students, where it's not really exactly a debate, it's more of I have this conclusion, and I'd like to share my life experience, my lived experience, and what brought me to this conclusion, rather than this, you disagree with me, so you're dangerous kind of perspective. So I think that, like so I want, and I when I was researching your work, I very much agree with everything that you stand for. I just wish that that was more that people can understand it. We have to be patient in order to achieve what it is that you're seeking and what I'm seeking now, and there's, there's such a lack of that now it's more I need to be right. I need to be on the right side of this, or I could be, you know, penalized in so many different ways socially, which is a really sad one. Now these kids lie to each other.
Be pretending to have this hardcore empathy in culture, when really they there's no real reason to have any opinion whatsoever at the age of 18 about something that's happening over on the other side of the world. If you're just like a kid from Ohio, it's just, I feel like we're expecting too much. And what's happening is the there, there are extremists that are seeing that in American like in western higher education, especially, and they've decided to weaponize that by by using guilt. And it's really sad actually, because the kids are lot more confused, I think, than I was at that age, or that any other generation. Because now everything is so on display with social media. So you can't just feel empathetic. Now you have to feel empathetic and improve it,
and in many cases it's with very
unrealistic evidence. So it's quite sad actually to see. Yeah, so you would like to actually have dialog with have people having dialog with each other, and be listening to each other, but now it's kind of more performative you're saying, and that if you sort of disagree, you're kind of shunned or put down, or your disagreement is not really heard, and your feeling sounds hearing some sadness too, that there is not more of this dialog and openness for discussion. I think one of the scariest parts is that it's the adults that are
forming this, the blueprint for these kids. So it's like when I and I learned to be very like I was very quiet for four years at the University of Michigan, witnessing this, which is when I started to do this research.
Because I I was confused by it. Frankly, at the beginning, I was, I really thought that higher education was more about debate and dialog and discourse, and it's really not today like that. If you are in any way, shape or form conservative about anything, you are a danger to the, you know, the university
and which, which is
quite shocking actually, because I've seen that most of the conservative students, which is rare actually, at these two universities I'm discussing,
they're the ones who possess the emotional reasoning and the and the abate the
ability to understand this, because they're used to being surrounded by people that disagree with them and they still want to maintain a positive place in society. And I really wish that we could approach these conversations about empathy the same way, which is, I have to understand that the world does not revolve around my perspective, and in order for me to have a functioning relationship with literally anybody, I'm going to be disagreeing with them on things when I have to understand that they can still love me and respect me or hate me, but respect me, but still nonetheless respect where I'm coming from, and have an understanding of who I am as a person, and that it doesn't really affect them actually, you know? So it's like it's more of.
Like we're teaching this one track mind to young people today in terms of empathy, and which is to just be so
there's unquestioning,
zero boundaries, just
infinite amount of empathy for someone who is oppressed without even researching why this narrative exists in the first place. So what I'm hearing there is that you would like on campus for the be more kind of discussions, but there's from the adults, the older folks, they're sort of imposing. Maybe this my way of being, and if you're not following or that way of thinking if you're not following it, that you know you're you're wrong, or it's not really even tolerated, and that the conservatives, who they've been so in the minority, that they're used to being able to dialog more and be able to think about things, and realize that their opinions is not the Only opinion in the world. And you have to have dialog to kind of work through these different issues. And you have a wish that that's what, what it would be, and that that, you know things are complicated, and you know you have to be able to understand that. I guess the Israel Palestinian situation is very complicated, and you have to understand, have some openness for the the the complications that are involved there. Yeah, absolutely,
there's another about the victim part too. You're saying something about the victim, that people are just going for this victim. Yeah, mine right. I mean, I think that. And I hate when this word is so obvious. I think there's a very nuanced perspective here, a reality about this particular what I wrote the piece about, which is the Israeli Palestinian conflict on campuses,
and where there's no nuance, really, in terms of what they're teaching. It's basically Israel's evil. And if you stand with the Israeli people, you're oppressing. You know, the victims of the world all over the place, in whatever way, shape or form they come in.
This is sad to me, not just because I'm Jewish, but because it's it just seems so wrong at the beginning, and then when I researched more, like I said, I've interviewed hundreds of students, and I've interviewed also some faculty,
and also just faculty, have shared their thoughts with me on a personal level, just because they know the research I'm doing and that I'm a non traditional so I'm an older student,
and it's if there was more of a realistic conversation about like the experience that People are having, or what they've learned. Even I've learned this, what do you think about this? It's more like I'm right, even though I'm 19, and you, if you don't agree with me, I'm danger. I'm afraid of you.
And that seems in reality, a lot of these kids will grow up, they'll go into, you know, the workforce, and they'll they'll find mentors, and they'll be fine. But there, there are these marginalized groups of kids, though, that the schools seem to seek out, um,
particularly through like these dei programs. And they, they, they possess a set of qualities that make them very susceptible to this issue. That's what I think is very strange, or I should say, shocking, where, if you, if you do research, and you see that there are these kids that didn't go to college, they're less, they care a lot less about any of this conflict.
It's the campuses that are the ones that the the extremists have realized
these are supposed to be the most the highest level of critical thinking students or young people in the country, when really they're the most susceptible to extremism and to domestic terrorist behaviors because they're being told by adults that are supposed to be shaping them to do this, when really kids or young people that are Just in the workforce, that didn't go to college, they're just trying to, like, have a life, and they're actually avoiding a lot of this stress, which I find really interesting and kind of sad, because you would think going to one of the best schools in the country would result in a sort of emotional freedom, and it's really actually like a It's a prison in many ways, and the kids, the research that I've done, I just, I just did a separate study where we're asking the kids to
describe their relationships with their friends after having to, you know, do this performative
behavior regarding empathy, and it actually has trickled into where they're just dishonest about other things, even to their own best friends. These are the things that I wanted to write these pieces about, because this is not good I can understand. Like writing something, some BS to get an A and a paper, that's one thing I can understand, trying to get a connection and a mentorship.
Up and saying, you know, I believe in this, which is
strange in itself, that we're asking students to describe a global conflict at the age of, you know, emerging adulthood, in order to get a job, which is what is happening, at least in my in my interpretation of it. But
I think that if we were to step back and have this be where and have other people's opinion matter as much as their own, we would have less of this dishonesty, meaning the kids are now telling themselves, are telling each other lies in general. They actually admit that they're dishonest with their own best friend about what they believe could be could possess some sort of
negative impact on their life, socially or academically. So it's not just like they're they're the emotional, the emotional
reasoning that's being taken away from them in the critical thinking environment of the classroom, which I could have understood, I guess, to, like, just get through four years, but it's actually affecting their social lives and their relationships, which is going to affect their adulthood. So that's what I'm worried about. Okay, so what I'm understanding there is, within the colleges, there's sort of this kind of radicalization, kind of dei the whole woke, kind of mindset, that it's kind of intimidating the people who don't really care about it, but if they step up and just say what their honest opinions are, they're going to get criticized and shut down or canceled. And that not only so they shut up and just kind of go with the flow, just act like, yeah, I support you, even though they don't or whatever. And then that that
that mindset of being dishonest is becoming part of their personality. So well, I'm dishonest here. I just be dishonest with family and friends because I don't just want to create any waves or anything. I'll just kind of agree and you're just kind of, I kind of upset seeing the these kind of impacts that this is having, having, and well, simultaneously, they don't trust other people, because they don't they know they're being dishonest about things. So in return, or as a result, when you know they're trying to one of the things we were talking about is just like dating and your early 20s.
This is these, this kind of
extreme
behavior, like the performative that we're discussing. It affects people in a way where they're now, they're just someone says, Hi, my name is Kevin Waldman. This is what I do. They just don't believe you like I'm not saying it's every time, but I'm saying there are people are skeptical about just people being good.
And I mean, at that age I'm I skated by, and I have a normal adult life. These people, I really fear
are going to have challenges. And like I said, not all of them, but there are like, and I arrived at these conclusions as a very liberal gay person who I when I started college at 33 years old, after having a very liberal, very open minded, but also just I believed in, Like, the orthodoxy of liberal politics. I just like was loyal to whoever was blue, whatever. Like, you know, many people are like this after going to college at a prestigious university at 33 I not so much on that path, because I see
a lack of just interest in how anybody else feels, but then pretending that that's all they care about.
And if you even dissent in any way, it's, you know, I'm a self loathing gay or, you know, I'm attacking this or that, and I'm like, my experience should be warranted in this particular environment, maybe not in any other environment, but in the in the classroom, some kids should want to hear what I'm talking about, especially some gay kid and but they've been taught for years now. I mean, by the time they hit college, they've already this in 2025 they've been this radical empathy has been pushed on them in middle school now, even for these kids. So it's like, I what point is it too late for them? I don't know, but they need more role models of people saying, Okay, I understand where you're coming from, but you need to just listen a little bit more, and then we can have a discussion, because the entire world doesn't revolve around like this liberal ideology that you've been told in this classroom, and they are actually teaching that if you dissent from it, it's a problem. I mean, I witnessed it many, many times
that, to me, is something that
it's just strange to like affiliate that even with this important word empathy that we're discussing, because empathy is the thing that could solve all of this. Yeah.
And really it's like, we're, we've, we've turned this word. It's almost like the word narcissist, everyone abuses that word to so it's almost like it has no meaning. I'm like, I don't want to get to the point where empathy has no meaning. We should all have it and possess it, but there has to be a boundary to which we can measure this by and say, Okay, I feel this way. I feel for this person, but also
I'm allowed to dislike something, I'm allowed to question something, and I'm allowed to have nothing to do with it, and this is what we're lacking. I think it's a whole this, this phenomenon is of people not being open, and on being able to be open, honest, transparent, and having to hide themselves, not only impacts their relationships, but also how they trust the world. They just become mistrustful of of other people, because it's like, I can't be honest, everybody else is probably faking it too, so it creates this whole negative world. And I'm hearing too that you actually value empathy and the listening, and it's Yeah, and, and I guess my point would be, is that what we are criticizing, I agree with the phenomenon that you're talking about and all the impacts, but to label it empathy, I think starts losing the the benefit of the word empathy, that there's, there's Other terms. It's almost like you're, you're you're criticizing, and you're you're criticizing, a phenomenon that is actually not empathic, but calling it empathic, which I think adds confusion. That's kind of the work that I'm trying to do, is create a better clarity, you know, around these, these around empathy, and the way, one of the ways that I do is with the empathy circle. Maybe sometime we could actually take part in an empathy circle,
and in this process, it's sort of like the minimum viable structure for, I think, holding an empathic, mutual empathic dialog. So it would be
a scenario. One thing we've done, for example, we with, you know, when Trump was elected the first time, there was all these demonstrations, like UC Berkeley with a political right coming out and having free speech, you know, demonstrations, and then counter demonstrations with Antifa and so forth. There'd be three or 400 people on each side, and we have a small group of, you know, four people, five people, and we take this tent out, we call it the empathy tent, and we offer listening to both sides. So we'll listen to the conservatives, we'll listen to the liberals, and then we try to bring the progressives, try to bring we bring them into dialog and using empathic listening to dialog with each other, which is what you're saying, you're kind of hoping, is people would actually sit down and talk to each other, or listen to each other the first step, and then have a dialog. And in this dialog, you know, the first person speaks, and the listener reflects back their understanding of what that person has said to their satisfaction, so you can feel safe to express yourself and know that you will be heard. The person might not agree with you, but before they attack you, criticize you, they will
that they will listen to you to your satisfaction, so you've been fully able to express yourself, and then the conversation goes around, and then the listener becomes the speaker. After, you know, maybe five minutes, we take turns, and then they select someone to speak to, and that person reflects back what what they're hearing. So we keep each comment is met with empathic listening, and even if you're judgmental, it's like, oh, you're a jerk, you're you know, whatever, you just reflect back, I hear you say, I'm a jerk, and
you know that you think I'm terrible, and so forth. So you meet their criticisms with empathy, but it's sort of a structure that it makes sure everyone gets heard and not you can't, you can't, like, shout somebody down, or, you know this, so it's a structure, and we've used that. I don't know if you saw the video I sent it was part of a documentary called Trump phobia, what both sides fear, where we had people from both sides, and it's in the video, they listened to each other, and they helped with the empathic listening. And at the end, we did six pairs at a demonstration concert, pro Trump, anti Trump, and five of them hugged each other afterwards because they listened to each other. It starts. And for me, empathy is basically a deep form of listening. So that's my concern. Is by calling it, you know, radical empathy, it sounds like it's, it's really, it's a radical lack of empathy that you're criticizing. And I think it's just in terms of terminology, you know, it's that, that's, that's my concern.
Uh, because the phenomenon you you're all the phenomenon you're talking about. I see them as anti empathic phenomenon. In terms of psychology, we use the term radical empathy, and this is what they also they didn't use the word radical empathy in Dearborn, but they empathy is the, the tool that they're using to fight on college campuses. So I actually, I agree that it's a lack of empathy. Just the term radical empathy is kind of like the click bait or whatever.
I do agree with you. It is a lack of empathy that we're discussing.
I wish, and I think that the empathy circle should be something I'm actually about to do. I think this summer, potentially some some stuff on the campus for the summer students at Northwestern and I would love to do
the empathy circle and have it recorded too,
just because this is something that me and a colleague of mine have been discussing. We want these conversations to exist. I try and stress to the students, you'll be relieved if you hear someone out and you're and you don't hate their like it'll make your life easier. It's like I feel that this is also this. This will call it radical empathy now, but Well, I feel like that's also tied to so many
unfortunate and negative mental issues too, because they're so used to it being
frustrating and stressful and aggravating and hateful that there's no, like you said, there's an absolute lack of empathy, where if You just hear somebody out, you're going to be relieved. I and I feel like the adults should be explaining this on the college campuses, but they're not. They're actually encouraging the opposite. And I know this for a fact. So it's it's stressful to see because in the conversations I've had, and obviously, as someone who most of my friends are very, very liberal,
and I, I am, in a way, but I in terms of what I've witnessed, it's, it's just kind of swayed me in a different direction, unfortunately, because it's like weird to even imagine this, but it is the case, and I always feel relieved when someone will actually just tell me the truth about what they're feeling, rather than the emotional response to what I'm asking. Because I'm like, I adore this person, I respect this person, and this is what they this is what they went through. This is what they believe to be true. And a lot, in a lot of these cases, we don't know the truth. It's all of our interpretation. And if you can just open your mind to the idea that somebody can have the same approach,
or the same
desire to feel like they're right about something, but have a different approach, I think that we'd be better off, and we're lacking this for sure, in mental health, I mean, just having simple empathy, could hear a lot of things. And unfortunately, it's so performative now that we're especially that emerging adulthood age, in the long run, what it's doing, it's stunting moral development, because it's also performative. That to the point where, if you just have a regular conversation amongst two friends that are 22 years old, they don't even know what they believe because they're so used to pretending to believe something. So they don't want to hear, you know, they it's talking points about, you know, emotions and morality, and that's actually a scary thing at that age. Yeah, I'd love to see empathy. I mean, be core to I used to think that that that it was in the universities, that that's what it was about. But I do see that woke ism is sort of an authoritarian, sort of a movement, sense that it's shutting shutting down. So I do think that, you know, empathy is, is, you know, the solution. And I'd love to, you know, support, help in some way with holding empathy circles there, if you're doing it, we have a whole community of people who have been learning the process, and we can, you know, support, you know, others, because we're really trying to spread, spread the practice. Because you can bring in, you know, bring in the woke, bring in the anti woke, bring him into a circle, and they have to listen to each other, you know. So it's if you just bring people in they start talking, you know, kind of blows up. But if you have people that before you get to speak, you have to listen to the other person and reflect back your understanding of what they have said to their satisfaction. It changes the whole dynamic. It brings, I think, a deeper empathy, into the into into the relationship. And I would love to see that be core to what university is about. Like, I know you argue about reason, but I think before reason comes.
Listening. You know that, you know, I'm all for free speech, but I think what we're missing is free empathy, which is, you know, free that we the other side of the coin to speaking is to listen. So I think we need, we need those two aspects. I did want to just address the
victor a victim, oppressor, dynamic
in that or if you are familiar with
conflict mediation, but there's something called the Drama Triangle. Or if you've heard of the Drama Triangle, but in the Drama Triangle, there's three roles. There's a victim, oppressor and rescuer. So in a sense, we have this dynamic, if you say what you know with the activists, that they see these victims and the days they see, you know, they see the Palestinians as victims and the Israelis as oppressor, and they're going to be the rescuer, right? And in the process of rescuing the victim, you become an oppressor yourself, and then this constant shifting back of roles of victim oppressor kind of keep shifting, and you're kind of like stuck in this never ending
Drama Triangle is called, but the way out of the Drama Triangle is, I think, empathy. And it's that that you, if you see, you know, you bring, have people in, in a circle, for example, that you listen. You have to listen to each person before you you act or share your own point of view.
So you're instead of being the being the rescuer, you say to Israeli, tell me about your experience, what's going on, you know? And then you listen. And then you listen to the Palestinian what's going on with you. And you hear, hear them out, and then you try to support them in listening to each other and creating a mutually listening environment, and that takes you out of turning people into victims. So I totally agree that there's this you know, that you know seeing people as victims is has negative, lot of negative consequences, especially as it plays out in the victim
in the Drama Triangle. But empathy is a way out of that. So when you're criticizing
victim oppressor, empathy is not creating the victim oppressor mindset that empathy is actually the solution out of it. So that's one concern I have about your criticism. You're kind of associating that, Oh, I see this person in pain. So what's what's happened next is they've empathized, but then they've gone into a sympathy. I feel sorry for them, and I have to rescue them, and that's not what empathy does. Empathy, at its core is about listening to them and then having them listen to you and coming into a mutually listening, empathic dialog. So anyway, so that's what my so with the whole victim, oppressor, I think that that's, I mean, that was core part of what you were talking about. And I do see that the woke ism is big on that, but so that's why I think woke ism is not at all about empathy. No, no, it's performative.
Performative empathy, meaning, like we've discussed that lack of empathy. So I'm on the same page as you. I just I think the terminology is just getting in the way of us actually completely agreeing with each other? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's been it's been interesting. I actually just wrote another piece in the for Northwestern about if we could always just approach this about how I'm Jewish and I go to a Palestinian identifying Barber, and how I wear my Star of David, and it was awkward at the beginning. And we just don't we just I go with her, like, every two weeks to get my hair cut and my beard done. And
I'm like, if everyone in if every one of these students could see this interaction, they would see that, like, there's so much more to their life than this textbook, this, this abuse of like, the lack of empathy, and the and the performative empathy, meaning, like, I go to this place, I decided I was going to keep going after this went down, and they, they know I'm Jewish. They know we don't agree on anything, but we just, it's so American to say, I still want to I want something from you. You want something from me. They offer me tea. They offer me a cookie once like it's it's a great example of what we could all have if we just step back and listen to each other and realize that my personal belief about something that's going on 1000s of miles away doesn't, shouldn't affect what I'm doing in Chicago on a daily basis with strangers. I mean, I can.
Obviously choose to not be around and I do choose to
not us, to not associate with people that are I believe I have nothing in common with or that I disagree with. That's fine, but I shouldn't be judging somebody simply based off of something that I've never experienced negatively, but I mean told that my people have oppressed this person, this, these, their people have oppressed mine, when really I'm like, That's never happened, though, to me or anyone that I know. And I'm very Jewish, and none of us have had these terrible experiences until October 7, which is unfortunate, but I said in the piece, if you want to really understand, and by the way, this does stem from empathy, so let's just circle it around that if you do want to understand your place in the world, you have to go out and live in the world, and it's going to mean being around people that you disagree with. It's just part of developing as a human being, and that's what makes you possess empathy later, because you've been exposing yourself to these different perspectives. And I really wish that that was more that I just think that the barbershop thing happened to be a really great example of what I hope for everybody that's going through this college campus nonsense
to eventually find themselves in that position where they're like, Okay, my experience is actually not what I thought it was going to be. And let me think more before I open my mouth about this. I've had the same issue. I was very
quick to make accusations and judgments after this all went down, because it was so chaotic at the University of Michigan when October 7 happened, and now I'm like thinking more like, okay,
although I still have my beliefs, which are not going to change. If somebody is living a life around me and has a very different perspective, they're entitled to that, and I want to hear them out and then move on with my life. It doesn't have to be my existence. Doesn't have to surround this conflict that I'm having with another person. You know, yeah, so you're that's actually part of your wanting to see the humanity of your barber, have mutual human interactions and and be open to other ideas and makes you a stronger person. I think you know too so. And also the the weaponization, though, not to go too far into this, but this, this lack of empathy that these kids have, and then the or that the administrations have, and then this performative empathy approach. It's actually what they want, is for the oppressed people, the Palestinian in this case, they want those people. Their entire philosophy is centered around the the failures of these people. They need. If in order for the in order for the Jewish people to still to be
the oppressors, it means that the PAL, the pro Palestinian community needs to be oppressed by these people, which means they need to fail in America. This is when it's really sad to see that even the barber shop, people who are Jewish are afraid to go in there,
because of this narrative and it's being created by these elites at these very prestigious universities. And the question is, why, like, why are you doing that? I have, I have theories on why we can't get into today, but it's my they're just theories. Who knows if I'm even remotely right, I'm just, I'm very confused on why this performative empathy, which is a lack of empathy even exists in the first place. Why? Yeah, yeah. I kind of curious too about how this came, came about.
And I have, I have few, few ideas. But for me, the main thing is to keep working on the counter of having, you know, I would say true, but just a real, empathic bringing people together. So I think one of the things that is
the sympathy, you know, the difference between, I mean, is
starting to feel sorry for people, right? That? That when you move from empathy, really trying to understand someone, be present with them, to start feeling sorry for them, you've shifted from the other person, and you've become kind of self centered about your it becomes about yourself, so true. So I think that's what you're criticizing is not the empathy, but oh, I'm feeling sorry for all these people, and it's a bit of a self centeredness. So in the empathy circle that would play out with if I'm saying, Oh, I've had such a hard life. Things are so bad for me. I feel so miserable. Instead of you.
You know, listening, saying, Oh, I hear your life is really tough, and you're having, you know, a difficulty, and just reflecting back, being present with where I am, and then I keep exploring that, you know, going deeper into it, that you say, Oh, I feel so sorry for you. Poor you, and you're you're no longer empathizing so when you're criticizing that you're I would say you're kind of criticizing sympathy, feeling sorry for people, which can lead to that victim, oppressor, sort of mindset. So again, my concern is, is that, by I know it's almost like click bait. Radical empathy is people are going to pay attention. There's a book out the sin of empathy. He gets a lot of attention because it's so over the top,
but still, it seems like you should be like promoting more clarity about what real empathy is and how those phenomenon that you're describing are not empathic. And what can we do to transform like those? Those kids that you're talking about are young people who are getting wrapped up in this is, you know, bring them into an empathy circle so they can feel what it's really like to be able to express yourself, to be heard, have free speech, be met with with empathy. So I guess again, that's
a concern I have about this. There's a whole genre now of articles coming out. You know, following what you're saying, empathy is bad. You know, it's like, oh, we like empathy, but it's all this negative stuff. And there's, there's not a clear distinction
of the boundaries of what we're talking because it's very subtle empathy. Being empathic is a very subtle, sensitive mindset, and it's easy to get off of an empathic mindset, you know, like go into sympathy instead of maintain an empathic presence, and people sense it, you know, when I'm doing conflict mediation, I mean things could if I don't stay, you know, really, in an empathic, you know, mindset, listening to all points of view, trying to get the sides together, being active, not putting my own, you know, judgments. You know, in in when I'm listening to them, it can easily just blow up. So it's a sensitive it's a very sensitive way of being that. Again, my concern is, when you're criticizing it, you're adding to the confusion about what empathy really is. Instead of articulating, saying, oh,
there's a victim oppressor that's not empathic. You know, sympathy is not empathic. And I think you'd also mentioned emotional identification. So it's like, oh, I identify. Even identification can be unempathic in the sense that if I'm saying, Oh, I'm struggling, you know, and I'm having trouble, instead of you just being present and listening to me, you can say, Oh, I had the same problem. I have the same issues. So it becomes about you again, sort of like sympathy. And those are subtle, you know, differences, and yeah, so again, I don't know how you address that. Like, what can you clean up here? Clean up your vocabulary in terms of, you know, being supportive of what real empathy is, instead of adding to the confusion. And yeah, the mass of i I'm still learning how to do, how to how to present this information. And so I completely, I'm appreciative of your, your criticism on this, because I think you've got a really good point. I should definitely be explaining the subtle differences and opening with that. Actually probably it. Then will it will kind of open up the and just explain what the next, you know, 45 minutes are going to be about is stemming from the fact that we are always confused by these very subtle distinctions that are actually very important. So that's, that's a really good piece of advice that I'm getting from you on that. So thank you. I think you're right, actually, yeah, that's the argument. That's the approach I'm trying to take, is that empathy can bring us together. It's the it's what can bridge the political, social divide. If we have mutual empathy be a primary cultural value, they can really bring people together. And that's really what we need in the in the country, you know, it's not, it's conservative or, you know, both sides are pretty unempathic, you know, but they're also willing to be empathic, and I've seen that in bringing people together, and people value it, and they're like hugging each other after, you know, a 45 minute dialog so and then, once you start getting past that, you can start thinking about solutions. And I would like to see you know, you know a law that says Republicans and Democrats in Congress have to have an empathy circle every month with each other. It's a recorded.
About, how are we going to overcome our, you know, political and social differences, you know, so and we're trying to build an empathy movement to make this value, you know, primary cultural, cultural value, and it's going against, it's going against the river stream.
Well, I think that there, and I've that article, got so much feedback, and I can't say I regret what I wrote, because it's it got us talking, and here we are. But also, like I said, I'm still figuring out my approach to writing these pieces, and also, I have learned, though, that like and something I'm getting out of our conversation is, there's, there is these, this lack of knowledge on the distinctions is, is universal. I think because many people have reached out and told me specific stories about their community that has nothing to do with like the Palestinian, Palestinian thing that I wrote about, but a woman wrote reached out and said,
you know, we feel sorry for X, Y, Z people in our community, and we're giving them free housing, and then they're just using it and whatever, long story short, it's that's that's also sympathy, basically, yeah, so and,
and we see that, yeah, so and I just had a conversation the other day at Northwestern where somebody they thought They were being empathetic about gay people, and they just pity gay people. And I'm like, This is not what you're thinking it is.
And she was so militant in her approach, like just not able to even hear me out, and somehow I'm a self floating gay because I'm like, I don't need you to feel sorry for me. You can understand that I went through this without pitying me because of it. I'm here with you, you know, fighting the good fight of life, and I and so that's another, like, very, very common one that I deal with is someone who's gay where very well intentioned people somehow think that they they don't even realize that what they're feeling is sympathy for me instead of empathy. So, yeah, and, you know, there's, there's with empathy. It's you sort of open yourself up with the act of listening as a is, you know, the core is a core exercise or process that helps is, you have to take in what the other person is saying. You might not agree with it. But instead of putting up a wall right away, or putting up a wall of sympathy or putting up a wall of judgment, that you have to at least take it in. It doesn't mean you agree with it, but at least you've it's sort of registered, and the other person can see that it's registered with you. An example is we had, you know, back when Trump was elected, the first time, there was a pro right wing rally in Sacramento, in the capital. We went there with the empathy tent, just went to listen to people. And
there was a group of five members of identity Europa. I don't know if you know them, but they're the ones that were wearing the khaki, you know, pants and shirts with the tiki torches right in Charlottesville, they're the kind of more clean cut, you know, identity rope group. And it was five of them came to the empathy tent, and one of our, one of my friends, in the tent, he's Jewish. And the topic came up about the Holocaust and their Holocaust deniers pretty much. And then my friend listened to them what their views were, actively listened. And then when it came then they said, oh. Then it was his turn to speak about what the Holocaust meant to him. And he said, well, the Holocaust to me means that half my family in Austria were killed and the other half were spread around the world, you know. And then, because the person was a Holocaust denier, he just couldn't say that. He just couldn't reflect back, half your family were killed and the other half were spread, spread around the world. And and then he said, Oh, it's the communists, this and this. And I said, No, he said, I said this, and he said it again. And he the guy just couldn't reflect it back. He did it like three or four times. And then his friend who was next to him, who had been doing an empathy circle with somebody else, said, Just tell him what you heard him say. And he did. He said half your family were killed and the other half were spread around the world. And my friend said he could just feel the difference this person, you know, he maybe he doesn't agree, but at least he finally heard me, instead of going off in all these rational schemes of trying to, you know, not say, say back. So I guess my point there is, is the empathy is about hearing, you know what's going on in people, and by doing the act of listening, you have to sort of take it in. So instead of, you know that woman, I don't know whatever she was saying that you know, he would have to take in your thoughts first, and then it kind.
Just helps with that mutual understanding. And again, that's sort of the core practice of the empathy circle. So in the circle, the person says how they feel, the other person listens, and then before they respond, they repeat, this is what I'm hearing you say about yourself. Yeah, this is that's important, I think, and that's something that, because we're so quick to be speaking next that, I think that that would be,
yeah, this is, that's a good approach. If we do do this at Northwestern I'll reach out to you for sure.
And I just think it'd be such a perfect example. We should just do this sitting out with a little tent, like you said. And it's just important to get obviously, it's, it's, it's, it's actually tough to find two sides. On college campuses, there's such a one sided approach, usually, at least in terms of what I'm doing research for, which is anti semitism. So,
but this is, it just sounds like the Trump thing is a great example, too, because it's extremism also on but you know, both sides, you're either like, I mean, that the derangement syndrome, I think, is like, should be real. It's there are people who are so terrified, and then the people who are so loyal in a way that it's like, sad. So it's like extremism on both sides. And if they were able to meet in the middle,
we would be simply living in a better place.
Oh, great. Well, that's what we're working for. And, you know, we've set up the tent, I live near Berkeley, and set up multiple times in Sproul Plaza, which is, you know, Central Plaza in Berkeley. And we set up the tent, and we start off with just listening, so we have a little card, or if I have one handy,
there's a little card. It says
free empathy is feeling, imagining the the
Okay, imagine and connecting with the humanity of another present. This card for 10 minutes of free listening, and it's part of our empathy tent, you know, project. So we hand this out. Come sit down. We'll just listen to you for 10 minutes. And it can be, I was longer sometimes. And then if enough people gather around, we also hold, uh, empathy circles. And we've done that multiple times. I like that.
I think it's good. It's one of those things where I wish, I want to be more present and stop when I see something like that, because I just plow through campus and I, you know, if there's something like that, I think it's like, it would just benefit so including me, like, I would love to hear somebody who's willing to hear me out too. I think that's the most important thing. Is, knowing that you're going to be heard is as equal as you know listening because you want someone who disagrees with you to actually hear you. And so often now we just expect, like, now at this point, I just don't even have debates on campus because just like, I don't feel like going through this anymore. It's like, I'm not. It's okay to disagree. I like disagreeing with people. I don't care. I'm just
I, I'm not dangerous for you know, I have boundaries on what I believe
are my emotions, in terms of, like this empathy.
Sometimes I don't have empathy for certain things, and that's okay, and that doesn't make anybody I mean, it doesn't make me a monster, in my opinion. Do you think, though, what do you think about that? Well, there's it again. You know, there even the academic definitions of empathy, I think are a bit messed up. I do kind of base the work on Carl Rogers, who had was a clinical, you know, psychologist, and he was, I would say, scientific. So he merged the clinical, which is the actual lived experience of it, with the scientific. So I think that's really powerful. A lot of the academic stuff is just often cognitive, you know, in their own kind of cognitive world. And one of the definitions is affective empathy, which is, well, let me say the the empathy that I see is me sensing into your experience, right? You're, you're maybe upset about how what's happening on campus. You're, you're feeling creative about trying to find solutions. You're maybe frustrated with, you know, the administration, you know, not willing, being willing to listen to dialog. You're hopeful about looking for other methods that move things forward. So I'm sensing, you know, getting a picture of who you are. And I sense your feelings, right? Your maybe some frustration. But in one of the definitions is that I sense your frustration and I become frustrated, right? It's like I have this emotional contagion. I take on your frustration, but in the process of that, I actually stop listening to you and stop being present with you. So that emotional contagion is not empathy. It's more like a.
It just kind of, he actually, it disconnects you from an empathic presence, because I'm not listening to you, or it can be a reaction you're you're talking about Israel, and I get totally pissed off and say, No, you're absolutely wrong. And I start, you know, having my own emotions, reactions to it again, I'm not being present with you, and so all those things you know, emotional contagions a reaction to what, what, what you discover through empathy, is also not empathy. It may be started with empathy and empathic presence, but it shifted and it becomes actually a block to empathy, just like sympathy becomes a block, but it started with an initial, you know, moment of empathy. So that adds to the to the confusion, and that's where the empathy and that's where the empathy circle is really helpful, because you have to maintain the empathic listening when the as long as the other person is speaking, and you have to be able to reflect back your understanding of what that person has said. And to do that, you got to pretty much pay attention. And again, that's based on Carl Rogers, using that in the therapeutic process, he would only listen to his clients, not give him advice, not sympathize with them, not ask them questions, only stay present in this empathic so, yeah. So I think in terms of your response, what do I think about that it's like, it's a matter of staying in presence and with that person you were talking with, you could have asked her for an empathy circle, right? Okay, what I hear you say, is this, this, this? And my thought, is this, this, this, can you reflect back your understanding of what I said? And you're sort of bringing people into that empathy circle practice, and it's totally Yeah, like, for example, just one person in our group was mentioning, she was, you know, driving with her son and her son brought up an issue in the family that he was sort of critical about what's going on in their family, and she tried to defend herself, right? It's like, no, that's not it. And he just kind of, he got, it's like, oh, she's not listening. She's just defending herself. So he said, Oh, forget it. You know you're right, or you're right. You know, that kind of just acquiesced thing, because I don't want to argue with you. And then she said, Oh, I've learned this empathy practice. I should just listen. So she reflected back, oh, you're just saying there's these problems in the family, and you're having concerns about that. Yeah, that's right. And by her listening to him, she opened up, he opened up. Shared more. Shared more. Instead, it was like a great they were driving from, you know, Santa Barbara, to San Francisco. They had, like a whole a great day, because she just started listening to him instead of getting defensive and responding. So, yeah, and that's a choice, which I think we should all be making, like, a good choice, saying, okay, is this really worth like, this hellish car ride, or should I just, I mean, even just to avoid the bad car ride, let's make the better choice for our mental health or whatever. So I, I hope, I wish I made that choice more. And I think I I'm working on, I think we're all, like, working towards these things in our own relationships. It's just, it's crazy to think how many wasted, potentially beautiful relationships ended without people listening to each other. I know it's happened to me, definitely in my own relationship. So yeah, the whole woke it seems like a wasted energy. If it had been a focus on empathy and people empathizing all those millions of hours, it would have transformed the world. You know, it's kind of how I see it. And the empathy circle is a good training ground for that, because when you do the empathy circle, you're practicing those that mindset. So it's sort of like, you know, your neurons that fire together, wire together. So when you're practicing in the empathy circle, empathic listening, you're strengthening the neural circuits in your mind, those pathways of instead of reacting, you're deepening those listening and I think that's I think that something that's unique that we have is we not only have sort of the philosophical framework, but also some practical tools, you know, for fostering empathy. So I'd love to see and, you know, support you in holding empathy circles, or we can even hold some empathy circles with our group. You're welcome. We could set a, you know, if you have some friends or something, we just get four of us together and actually just practice an empathy circle, or something like that. And so you'd have, and we also have trainings for it too. So every couple months, we have a four week training on how to facilitate an empathy circle. I think that'd be helpful and useful. And I think that there are people in my program at Northwestern that would be interesting.
And at least hearing me out on this topic, because I think it's, I think it's important that we get more of this going, I think also really quick that I just wanted to add, I think that there's a stigma with the word empathy at this point. Like I said, it's getting over, and like, one of the things I'm really getting out of this conversation is that there's the lack of of honest definition of empathy with among people. So it's, it's more about, I think that the circles should be happening on all these campuses, truthfully. So I'm going to try and get it going on Northwestern I'm here. Very cool. Yeah, it'd be good for me even to just like, facilitate and see how it works out
the old one. I'll get a couple of friends, and you have somebody, what's your department anyway? What are you a clinical counseling master's program, clinical I mean, that's like, empathy is like core to clinical counseling. I mean, yeah, so,
yeah, if you want, we can maybe I'll send you an email with some dates, and I get a couple friends. If you have someone, I'll bring someone, and we'll do an empathy circle if you're, if you're up for that. So, so you know how to do it? Yeah, no, I would, I would love that. I think it'd be great. Oh, cool. Well, okay. Well, this has been a wonderful discussion. I've reached out to the, you know, against empathy problem, to the sin of empathy. Joe Wrigley, to God, sod, you know, suicidal empathy. And they said, No, we don't want to talk to you. So it's like the against empathy circle. Against empathy folks are not like big dialogs either, with people who are in the know. So I really appreciate you, you know, just being willing to have this discussion, because I think it's core to, you know, making the world a better place. So I totally agree, and I'm really glad you reached out. And I, yeah, I look forward to, I'll keep in touch and let you know what, what ends up happening. I think, I, I think I've got some people that are going to give me some grant money for some research this summer. So if that happens, I want to throw in a empathy circle and see how it goes. Okay, yeah, I have somebody also working at by studying her on getting a PhD in empathy. We're doing a project on the definition of empathy, so she's going to be doing research too on on empathy. So get to it. Maybe she'll be in the circle with, yeah, sounds good. Okay,
all right, well, thank you. Thank you. Bye, Kevin, bye.
