I learn every day as an architect, that's one of the beautiful things about my profession.
Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and today I'm joined by Kristy kemphill, a distinguished architect and founding principal of Ka whose career has been shaped by a lifelong passion for the arts and architecture. Chris's education took him from North Carolina State University UCLA, with an enriching period of study at the renowned crunch hock school wiesenberg in Berlin. His approach to architecture is deeply rooted in the belief that the finest details and craftsmanship are key to creating spaces that elevate the human experience Chris's true love designs in designing residential homes, where he goes to great lengths to understand how people live and interact with their environment. One example of his meticulous process is when he spent several days living in a client's home to fully appreciate how light shifted throughout the day, ensuring that every design decision will enhance their future to relate with his firm's work widely published in over 19 countries. Chris is not only a leader in his field, but also an active contributor to the profession, serving on the AIA custom residential architects network and offering his expertise to the California architects board. In today's episode, we will be discussing going deep into a single niche. We look at the importance of doing good work and what kind of marketing you need to make sure that everybody sees that good work. And we also talk about business development strategies inside of a small firm. So sit back, relax and enjoy. Chris Kemple, this episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architecture's flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smartpractice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners, we hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it without the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month. Interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support@businessofarchitecture.com Chris, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm doing wonderful, great,
excellent. So good to be speaking with you now. You've had a really impressive career. You had previously spent 21 years as co founder of Rockefeller Kemple architects, where you had a really diverse portfolio of work, residential, multifamily office, beautiful work in the hospitality sector, pretty, pretty big, you know, well known practice in was El Segundo just above Manhattan, Right? Yes, yeah. So it's rod Manhattan Beach on the on the West Coast. And now recently, you have ventured forth into into a new, a new phase in your career where you're focusing specifically on residential and bringing in that residential experience. And you've, you've, you've crafted a small team around you. So welcome to the show. Really, really exciting to to be speaking with you. And, well, perhaps we could talk a little bit about the the founding of Rockefeller Kemple and and also, you know what your what your vision is now, with your, with your, kind of, your new path. I think this is a really, you know, this is actually a very, very interesting topic to have somebody who was, you know, 21 years, pretty much you guys were together. And very exciting to go on to a new adventure. It is
exciting. It felt like it was time and and 21 years ago, how did this begin? So 21 years ago, I was working for my previous partner as an employee. He was in a previous partnership before it and that partnership ended, he went off to be by himself and gave me a ring a few months later, and said, What are you doing? And I said, Well, let's get together. And he was 18 years my senior. I had been doing and some while I was working, but I also had been doing some smaller residential work myself, and I thought to myself, well, what would it be like to partner with someone that's 18 years your senior? And the thought was, we had generally shared values and. Yeah, and there were different levels of expertise, meaning different strengths. And we had complementing strengths, so where I felt like I might have been lagging in, say, the relationship building, or the marketing side, or what have you, or just the business of the art, you know, the the actual Business of Architecture. Here I was partnering with someone that had been 18 years ahead of me, and had been doing it for some time before that. So there was a, there was almost like a, it's almost like you, you're, you're, you're trying to kind of latch on to someone that's in in a certain trajectory, and the thought being that the two together are better than one, yeah, and in that case, I felt like we were and and so that was the beginnings. It started in a garage, then we moved to an office space, and ultimately to another building and built a large portfolio of work that we did together, both commercial work, residential work, hospitality work, I was the design partner, if you will. So I had my finger on all the design aspects of all the projects in terms of their, say, exterior esthetic from on the commercial side of the work, while I was working on unit plans too for the multifamily, but on the residential side, I was, I was the the prime and only designer, if you will. So every residential product that we touched was my design product, and so I I played this role as a design director, if you will. And there were times when the commercial side of our business would need that touch. And then naturally, I was more ingrained and engrossed in the residential side as not only a business partner, but almost as a as a partner in charge and the main face and point of contact with all of our clients. So we touted ourselves as a boutique firm. We were anywhere between eight and, I think, as many as 14 at one point in time, and we didn't, we didn't have a lot of residential projects. We didn't have, but more than two or three or four residential projects happening at one point in time. And that was purposeful. We wanted to be able to have partner involvement, principal involvement. This was not a model where you brought a client in, you pass them along to a project manager or another project architect. You don't know who you're going to get it was the work you see on our website. Was my work, and my work would be that that vision would be translated into your ideas. It's, it's a, it's a, through our lens, we would take your ideas about what you want to live in in terms of style or program, how it feels, and what you want to do in it, and there's, it starts all over the place, but as the architect, it was my job to kind of wrangle all those ideas that we would get from a client and kind of cohesively create a design idea or concept out of them. So that was always my core passion and and and talent, if you would, that was my highest and best use. So in this particular case, think we just got to a point where it made it just made sense to really, why not focus on that which I love, as I, as I, as I step into a different phase or chapter of my career. So I, I started, I worked, say, three or four years right out of college. I had a wonderful experience with a with a firm, O'Brien Atkins in Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. I was, my goodness, I must have been 20 years old, and they, they handed off some projects to me that most 3040, and 50 year olds didn't get because they were overwhelmed, and it was for so they threw me deep into the water, and, oh, it was such a wonderful learning experience. So from that, from that starting point, then I moved out to Los Angeles, got my masters at UCLA, and started working with my former business partner under his previous on his previous firm that split, and then we went off together. So, yeah, it's. Just so the training wheels have come off, you know, so the training I guess, 21 years ago, I felt like I needed training wheels and and what better way than to work with a respected, caring, enthusiastic architect that was my senior at the time and
and so what would you say were some of the kind of things that made the firm successful over those 21 years? Because it's a long that is a long working relationship, and you know that you watched the business, you grew it together. What were some of the things that you thought you guys were doing very well that made it successful, that you're very keen to preserve and take forward into this next chapter?
Yes, that's a really good question, Ryan, because that's where I am. So the question is, lessons learned,
right?
What is the best what is the best part of what we grew for 21 years? What's the best part that we can take forward? And part of that is, well, I do feel like we put a we have very nice design product. Like our work was very varied in lots of different areas, but a well designed product was really important to us. It was rare that we took work that would be kind of filler work, if you will. Some of that had to happen as part of any, any business model. But so good, like a good design foundation, I think is important. And so for me, I feel very comfortable carrying that forward into the next chapter. Leveraging our technology was very important. What I mean by that is we were working in in an arc in ARCHICAD, which is, while it's also a tool for developing production drawings. It's also a tool for 3d modeling and exporting BIM modeling models and sharing it with clients in an early phase and then later on with a contractor. And so by having that technology, you're able to effectively communicate more efficiently. And while the old office was not a lot of people, we were very highly focused and skilled and really leveraged our technology to do the type of work or the amount of work that likely other firms it would require more people to achieve the same effect, so that nimbleness gets even, even grows even more exponentially when you're a smaller boutique like we are now, where it won't take but a few Good projects for us to not only feel like we're able to make a business out of it, but also to really enjoy it, and to have the time and the bandwidth to not get bogged down by production. Drawings literally take 1000s of hours to produce, and it's sometimes our clients don't understand that, and there's a bit of an education there as to why things cost what they do. But by leveraging our technology and learning how to do that over these past 21 years, and even when it has really I think will allow us to to really excel in this next in this next chapter,
how did you maintain design pedigree, and the kind of all the other things that are involved of running a business? Because this can be, you know, it's constantly a challenge. You mentioned there that there you didn't really take on filler projects more than you ever needed to. And also when, when you're an architect running the business and also having, you know, very active involvement in projects, we can often see your competition for for time on either other business aspects or the winning the work, or building systems, or dealing with the team and actually doing design work, there can often be this, this pull. How did you guys know? What would you say some of the lessons were in being able to maintain design pedigree and a business hygiene, if you like. Yeah.
Well, hiring talented people is really important, and I know that might sound maybe that's doesn't sound very profound, but finding the right people is allows you to work at that level of efficiency that allows you to get back that time. So what do I mean by that, if you can arrive at designing a home relatively quickly because you have a talented desire, there's a savings and time there. If you can arrive at developing a set of construction documents and specifications in a more efficient manner, because you have a capable team and a knowledgeable team and an experienced team, that's how you get back that time. So it's, for me, it's finding that right balance of finding that right balance of, really talent, I guess is, is talent and experience. If you have both of those, you can do almost anything. And yes, you know there is, there's the there's also in our in our profession, in a more broad sense, as a firm, before it was important to you mentor people. You hire young, you mentor them. You spend the time in this next chapter, for me, at least in the short term, that will lightly be less I enjoy mentoring, I enjoy teaching, I enjoy sharing what I have and what I've learned over the years with those that are less experienced, and I really enjoy seeing them excel, and to do things that I didn't do at their young age because I just didn't know. So if I could tell them and share with them things that I wish I knew at their age, then there's a certain level of satisfaction, personal satisfaction, in that, in this particular phase, really leveraging our skills and having great clients in those client relationships are really important. And what I mean by that is so much of my personal satisfaction in this work, in this profession, is the relationships with clients, right and and so by maintaining those and really focusing on those, that's that's really where my energy in the short term will be placed. Now that's not to say we won't, you know, depending on what projects we get, we may expand, hire, hire younger people, mentor. Mentoring becomes something that is a part of our our more daily lives. But at this the beginnings of this next chapter, it's really leveraging our talent, leveraging our experience, leveraging our technology to be able to gain back the time that you talk, that you're mentioning about. How do you juggle all these pieces, even technology, when it comes to time, card management and building capabilities like everything falls currently under one single software. And once that software is learned and it's understood how to create all of those pieces and parts, then it actually becomes fairly seamless. So really, we're really relying on technology a lot more and more well,
what kind of technology? What sorts of software do you use for your billings or project management?
We use good question. So over those 21 years, we were using a particular type of software that when I thought about this next phase, it seemed to make the most sense, because we put so much time and energy getting those systems really perfected, that at this, at this, in this next chapter, it did not feel sensible to try to rewrite that like if it's If it's not broken, why try to fix it? And and so we use software that's FileMaker Pro based, but it's architect tronica, and there are other offices, other architecture practices in the Los Angeles. This area that that use it as well, but I will continue to use it because I feel that it's a software that allows us to work very efficiently and and the more time we can save on that side, the more time we can have doing the fun stuff, and that's at this stage, that's what like. I really, I really want to make sure that we are working with clients that we love and respect, and they love and respect us back and and focusing on doing really good work, and the rest will come. You get any systems in place
with the the systems that you that you have in place, what sorts of things does it empower the team to be able to easily manage? Are we looking at, you know, they, they, they're able to kind of create a budget for their time. So you bring in a fee, and then you can split the fee up, and you're like, okay, that the fee equates to X amount of hours. And then project managers have got the ability to to look at their hours and then track against it. Is it that that sort of level of detail?
Exactly it's it's a very powerful, powerful software that way, because you could, you can use it to plan. It's got different modules, and within those different modules, you can plan that. You can say, Yes, you we know that the fee is x, the fee for this particular phase is is y. And then if we know how we're running as a company. We know our hourly rates are our intended break even costs, and we're building in some type of profit, you know, profit component on top of break even, using that as a baseline. And you can analyze your work in many different directions, but it all comes back to having your time card information put in there accurately so that you can understand how you work. And we have 21 years of data of how long did it take to do a 4500 square foot home, or a 50,000 square foot ground up office building or a so you know, having that data is very powerful, so that as we start to talk with clients about fees, we understand, we understand exactly what It will require in terms of a fee in order for us to be to have a chance to be profitable. And so, yes, it's, it's, it's a very good question.
So you're using that data then to be able to predict what you know, the amount of energy that's going to be used in a particular project, so that you can put together decent fees. And do you typically use a fixed fee, or do you prefer, like a percentage of construction or and how do you, how do you, how do you manage the increases of scope, particularly in the world of residential, when you've got a client who's very conservative to start with, and then you start selling them some beautiful drawings, and then their, you know, their their ambition suddenly, suddenly swells.
It's a good question. You we've, over the 21 years, we've we've changed our way of doing business because of a few different factors. On the residential side, we used to be a percentage of construction cost, right? And the interesting thing we found was that while we track our time, right? So as a business, you have money come in, money going out, the money coming in, obviously wants to be more than the money going out, and the money going out is a function of time, of how much you've worked, so how much you pay yourself, how much you pay your staff, what are your overhead expenses, so on and so forth, and and so what we found is we would, we would be able to Find a percentage of construction costs that correlated well with offsetting or being a good business model for us. And then covid happened, and construction costs became astronomical, right? So then what was happening is we had clients that would say, Well, okay, the cost of my job just went up 30% Why should I be paying my client 30 Oh, sorry, my architect, 30% more. And so it caused us to really rethink, really rethink that, because it then it became a point of contention, and in terms of client. Relationships like that's not the kind of we need. We always need to talk about business, but that's not the fun stuff. And certainly don't want to enter into a relationship and have our client feel like they've been wrong because of increased construction costs. So what the model that we've been more what we've what we like to embrace is a cost per square foot model, because we know how much time a project takes. So if we know how much time a project takes, and we know what our break even plus, we know what our break even plus profit number is, if you have those two pieces then and that time piece is based on a certain size project, you can really break it down. You can just from a very simple business standpoint, you can break down your cost per square foot, and we found it relatively consistent. Now there is an economy of means when you know you do a larger project, like a larger project, doesn't take projects that, say 10,000 square feet, does not take twice as much time as a has a project that's 5000 square feet. There is some sliding scale there. So you do have to factor that piece in. But again, we've been able to track time over many different projects over many different years, and by having those two pieces, you can determine that sliding scale. So if someone came to us and said, Hey, I'm thinking about doing a home that's 4000 square foot house, fair enough. Our cost per square foot to do that is x. And then Ryan, you may say, Well, what if the what if the scope starts to expand? Well, then it's very simple. It's if the scope, extent expands 25% that's 25% more work for us to do our she expands 25% and and that works if they want to specify gold plated toilets at $30,000 a piece. Their architect is not benefiting from. I'm using a very silly exactly, no one's ever specified a gold toilet. But you're probably aware with the the the toto near rest, I think, is somewhere like five or $8,000 so might even be more. It's the equivalent toilet wants to Yes, it is the equivalent old toilet. So it just takes a level of contention out of the business dealings of what we do. And that's what we've that's what we've found, and but it is challenging, because as we court a new client, they're interviewing other architects, and different architects work different ways, and they their fees are structured in different ways. So as a professional community, we do ourselves a disservice of not being unified in his approach. But I don't think that problem will be solved in my lifetime.
I think you're quite on the ball there with that. There's a lot around it when you're courting with clients. Then how do you, you know? How do you how do you kind of progress a project. Do you go straight in and you pitch them the here's what the whole fee is going to be for, the for the square footage that you want. Or do you do more kind of teaser bits of work, or preliminary bits of work at a fixed fee to see the viability of a project? Or and what stage do you normally get involved with them in? Do you help them find the land for a house, for example, or is it more they they have the land, they know what they want, and they come to the architect?
Well, for me, personally, it's worked all of those ways that you just mentioned, right? A home that we recently completed up in up in Mandeville Canyon, was for two brothers that wanted to build the house on spec. My connection with with them was through a real estate broker, colleague and friend that he said, I have, I have this great couple. You want them to be your clients. Why don't you help them, help them find a property, and perhaps they'll consider you to consider you to be their architect. So I did that. I met the couple, and we, I think we toured three different properties. They wanted my opinion on how I felt about them, and that was enough to start developing a relationship. And then they ultimately found a property that they purchased, and then they came back to me, and I believe they were. They did talk to two other architects and decided to continue on with me, but at. Point, it had not, had not charged them any things. Different architects work different ways. I've heard some architects say, even for a consult, I feel like my time is worthwhile. I should be paid. And I understand that. I think there's just different approaches. This was more of a Relational Approach, and, and, and now we've got it was a great, successful project. They just closed on the house a week ago Thursday, and it was for very healthy, a very healthy cost per square foot. I think they're happy. The realtor, broker that that closed the house had shared that this was only one of four houses that of 220 on the west side of Los Angeles that are of the same size and cost in that same size and cost area, only four are closing or in closing right and And this is one of them. So that felt good, because we could have been one of the other. I guess what about 16, right? So that was one way, but let's talk about the other. So another client that I'm courting at the moment, it started with a referral from a general contractor. We met, I think, and I was very clear with them. I said, this is like, we're going to get married. This is going to be you need to find an architect that you like, and you're going to need to like me and and if you don't like me, then you should, I shouldn't be your architect. And what I mean by that is from even from a personality standpoint, sure, talent is important and and everything else, but there has to be some type of trust and relationship that that is built. And so many of my residential clients I went to, went to one of my clients daughters weddings a few months ago. And how many architects do you know that go to their clients daughter's wedding? I don't, I don't know how often it happens, but my point is, in that initial courting stage, I just try to be very open and honest with with them about all aspects of it. And I met with them a few times, visited the property, shared some ideas based on experience. We know that we have to do. We have to go down this path. It's actually a very complicated property that has easements through it. It's up on a hillside. It's Mulholland Scenic Corridor, so there's, there's some complicated parts to it, but really be reassuring that a It's not rocket science be done this before, and I'm here as a 53 year old professional doing this for 30 plus years to walk you through every step. And then he did make a comment that he was okay with my white shirt. So that was good. So I'm glad I like you white shirt and and we continue those conversations, and now we're I help them finding an expediter. And so in that particular case, yes, then they asked, how is your How are your fees structures? So I sent them something about how our fees are structured, and we continue the conversation. Then we toured a then we toured a couple projects, and so that they could see a finished product, and the client was there, and they said a word about working with me. And so that's that was that courting process, again, not compensated for anything, didn't having come up with any sketch ideas. But to that point, I've worked with other clients before where they say, Hey, can you we've not worked with you before. You came recommended from this person and that person. You have any initial ideas about what you would do, so you visit the property with them. You talk about prevailing breezes and how the light comes on the property, and how you might exit and come on to and off the property, and how it might generally the massing of it and how it might flow. And I came up with some sketches, and they were really simple. And I don't know if they really look like much, but remarkably, the finished house is not that different from those initial sketches and and again, it wasn't a paid consultation, but that's how that project was commissioned. So it works. It works differently for for everyone, and it really is about taking their temperature on what do they need to feel confident enough that I'm the right person? For that and references every, every one of that courting processes includes a list of references and and speaking with past clients. So there's
in this particular not bad in this particular sector of you know, of residential and particularly when you're working with a kind of larger, larger homes, you're often dealing with a particular kind of client who's used to a particular kind of service in other areas of their life. I was speaking to an architect not so long ago who's up in up in Washington State, and they were sharing with me how they thought that often they're not actually competing against other architects, but they're often competing against other sorts of luxury experiences, for example, with the with their clients. You know, rather than the other architect they're competing against, they're competing against a safari in Tanzania or or something else. What sorts of insights or how do you create a particular kind of experience with the client to that's bringing value and trust throughout working with them.
Well, the first and foremost, being a good listener and letting them speak is important, because ultimately, this is this is their life. This is when this is done. They live in it. They they experience it on a daily basis and and so if they have thoughts about style or travel experiences or concerns or anxieties or a lot of what I think we do as architects is is be good listeners, and then from there, provide wise guidance as to address their concerns and and how do, how do they feel like they're being well serviced and everyone's a little different, meaning they like to be emailed at a certain time of day, or I get texts at sometimes three in the morning from some concerned clients. And so, you know, there's there's boundaries that often need to be created. But to your point, some of our high net worth clients have support staff. They've got construction managers who have their own role to play in in the process. And so I think adapting to those being sensitive and thoughtful about your approach, it's not a my way or the highway or I don't I just, I really try to make a point to as I step into a room with my client, that I am adjusting my sensitivity and thoughtfulness to what they What works best for them. And often there's dynamics that you encounter between husband and wife partners. One might be a saver, one might be a spender, right? Typically, there's a saver and a spender. That's how that's two that's how two opposites attract. But when it comes to you know, one likes to make decisions. One doesn't like to make decisions. So what's my point? My point is simply listening is really, really important, and if you can master that skill and then, and then weave in your level of experience, and I'm at a I'm at an age now where I'm not. I'm not making stuff up. I'm not some 2528 year old, only a few years of experience, and I'm just kind of like, it might be this, it might be that. Sure, are there things that I will experience that I have not before? Absolutely, I learn every day as an architect. That's one of the beautiful things about my profession. It's one of the most wonderful and one of the most like hardest things I think anyone can do. And it's one of the most misunderstood professions which can be, which it works in both ways. So some people say, Oh, you're an architect, that's amazing. Like, you really know what I do? Because, yes, we have a finished product, and right, we have a finished product, but it's a lot of work, and it's a it's a profession that to do well, you really need to be passionate about it. And that passion. Has to come from you. It's not something you learn in school. It's, it's not something that your parents wish for you. It's, it's really something that, and I'm sure you've experienced that with so many of of the professionals that you've interviewed and come across over the years. It's, but I, truly love what I do,
but I I often say with architects, and one of the reasons why I love talking with architects is they're typically always very passionate and very committed to what it is that they do. And even, even with the most downtrodden, miserable architect, you only have to scratch a little bit of the surface, and there's always a there's always there's always optimism that pours out, you know, which is always a, a very nice thing about the about the profession, and as you're moving on now into this next chapter of your career, and with your with your new with your new venture, what are some of the things that you want to do differently, and things that you're that you want to jettison. So perhaps, you know, in the context of your previous organization, there was a still way of doing things that you know worked then and worked for the organization. But now, you know, in this kind of debrief period, you can go, you know what we're going to do that anymore? We want to do this.
It's a good question, because there were so many things that I think we did well, yes, and so that's given me a wonderful kind of foundation to to step off of. I really want to work with people that are easy to work with, and I and and what do I mean by that you're in a larger office, and we weren't a large office, but at some point you get to a size, if you're not more than just a few people, you get to a size where politics start to develop. They just naturally do. Groups of people start to feel like they are more or less close, and, you know, to other people in the office and and that culture component, when you've got so many different personalities mixing together. I found it exhausting at times. You know, the adjustment kind of approach that I talked about with clients. And clients are very, you know, very different. You know, we're all we're all different, but we're all, in a way, the same, but the beauty of a of a smaller, kind of more nimble boutique setup is that I get an opportunity to work with people I just really love, and I can really be myself around and I don't have to worry about, I mean, politics is it feels like that does not feel like the right word. But, you know, of course, as an as an office, you want to create a type of culture in the in a in a positive culture, I think as you grow, for me, personally, the relationships are, are so important, and if, if, if they don't happen seamlessly or more naturally, then I find it exhausting, and I don't want to work with, with, with people that exhaust me. I want to be filled up and and so by surrounding myself with consultants that I enjoy working, we've got a great, great group of different consultants over the years that are kind of our go to team, if you will. And, you know, working with really good people on my side, working with good contractors like i i It's, I know, historically or classically on HGTV or what have you, there's this rub between architects and contractor. Yes, there's an education process and expectation, because as an architect, I'm driving a high quality product, and I'm pushing craft and a certain level of detail that maybe a contractor's not used to, and that level also might even make them feel like you're causing me to spend more time To do my job and that cost me money, I don't I don't know, but working with good contractors that really do care about delivering a good product, craft, quality, transparency, and working in just a very positive environment. But like those things are the things that I'm taking forward. And I've always, quite frankly, I've always had really good relationships with the general contractors that I've worked with on the on the residential side, so that that could, you know, keeping that team, and I'm able to keep all of that in this next, this next chapter. So I don't know if that makes any sense, but
it does, and it leads on to a little bit on to another question, which is, how do you know when to say no to either a client or prospective client? You know? How do you know when, when it's not going to be a fit and that you walk away from the project? How do you know when to say no to even hiring people, or say no to other you know consultants that you don't you don't think that there's going to be a fit with you working together. What sorts of things do you look out for to avoid a problematic relationship?
I had this discussion on a on a panel. So I'm, I am a co founder of the AIA long beach south bay chapter organization called coastal cran. And CRAN is an acronym, C, R, a n, it's the custom residential architects network and Quarterly, we we host a panel discussion with local professionals. They could be often in the architecture and construction industry. We've We've hosted discussions with local real estate brokers, where the ones coming up, where we're hosting a discussion with local building and planning department agencies members from there to essentially put them in front of a group of like minded residential architects to share their knowledge and also to network And to an opportunity to really ask some questions, and maybe those questions are tough questions. So we started that, that that series, that that lecture series, if you will, or that that that hosting series with two architects, two local architects that had been in the business for a very long time, and we asked that very question. That was one of the questions that us as a panel, we sat around and said, Oh, okay, we've got this opportunity to work with, to sit in front of two architects that have been doing this for 40 plus years, and what can our audience gain in terms of wisdom and knowledge from them. And one of those questions was, how do you how do you say no or not? How do you say no? But what are the warning signs for a potential? What's a red flag? I think that was really the question, What's potential red flag? And for one of the architects, it was clever. He said, When I interviewed with them, did they offer me a glass of water or something, was there a certain level of courtesy and respect that like what one might consider a common courtesy or respect, you show up to, like your meeting late or but He, he tried to simplify it down to, did they, did they offer you a cup of coffee, glass of water while you're sitting there, you know, with them, if you're in that situation, if you're out on a job site, walking around and you can't expect them to say, Oh, I have a water in my car in the video. But you know those, those little because it is at the end of the day, as I mentioned before, there's a this is a marriage like this is a this is a relationship that you want to go really well for the next for some of these projects, three to five years, in some cases, maybe even a little longer, from beginning to end. So it's a big commitment. And so there's a certain level of, yeah, there's a certain level of mutual respect that if, if you don't feel that initially, that's a that's a red flag. That's a red flag.
Have you ever had to divorce a client? Yes.
So I've made this comment before any of my clients listen to this, that our attorneys are going to laugh. But, you know, we have before sat around ago, what kind of like, what kind of clients are, you know, naturally, just we and I have two clients now that are attorneys, potentially three and and, and. So, yes, I had a client that was an attorney. Yeah, you know, the
first architect is said, attorneys can sometimes stole it sometimes be
yes, sometimes because the two, the two clients. I do have that are quite that are attorneys, are wonderful, but the one that I'm you're talking about walking away from boy, they were just they were just really challenging, and there was a lack of Essential Trust. There was a level of criticism and nitpickiness. And in the work of my staff that was that was doing the work, and it didn't feel warranted, and it got to a point where they were asking for more, and we had reached our limit, and they hadn't paid us in a timely manner, and we, we had to walk away. We said, we have these drawings that we've developed for you. I'm not losing my leverage. I'm not I'm not delivering them to you, and so you compensate us, or are our whole uncompensating hunch. And he preferred just walking away so and that was tough because that relationship started off really well. They even, yeah, yeah. It started off really well. So it's tough. It's tough. And sometimes you don't, you don't know until, even if they did offer you a cup of coffee or a glass of water, you just don't know. But it's, it's tough, because as architects, and I'm sure you've experienced this before, you know, we love what we do, and we're problem solvers. So if you have a problematic you know, if you have a problematic client, your first inclination might be, well, maybe I can solve this. Yep. And you know, in any relationship, you can't fix everything, and sometimes you have to let it go. What are you working so I'm not saying it's easy,
um, what are you looking forward to in the for the rest of the year and for moving into 2025
oh, just like, doing good work and just really having fun, like, really, like, we've got some really good projects that are at different phases, and being able to just focus on them, not get, not get bogged down on the Business of Architecture, if you will. Because at a large, you know, at a larger office, there are more things to focus on. And in this, in this particular case, it's not, it's, you know, we're, we're nimble, yeah, we could really focus on the things that are fun, that we want to do, and not have to feel like, Can I do this? Because if I do this, it might affect that. And it's, it's a bit more word, we're in charge of our own in charge of our own path and destiny. So and really, it's, it's like, let's just do we. Then I, you know, the people that are staying, I talked to them, it's like, let's just do good work, like the rest of it will come. We've got, we've got great work. Let's finish that work. Got new work coming, and it's just, it's just, let's do good work and really enjoy what we do.
Excellent. Very exciting. Well, Chris, perfect place for us to conclude the conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. So it's pleasure, really, really insightful there kind of going into some of the details of how to manage, manage projects, winning work, you know, keeping relationships going. So I really, really appreciate your time and expertise today,
of course, and I would love to do this again, if there's any other you know, at 53 I've done quite a few things. So you could probably go down a whole nother rabbit hole with me, if you'd like. I'd love to and something over a glass of wine too. Maybe
this stuff. I think so definitely. And that's a rat. Hey, Enoch
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