S2 Ep 29 Part ONE: Is the Wiggle Table Really Necessary? A frank discussion on inclusion and natural accommodation for neurodiverse learners.
2:57PM Mar 28, 2022
Shelli Ann Garland
initial teacher education
Hello, and welcome to A Dash of SaLT. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. SaLT is an acronym for society in learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.
Welcome to A Dash of SaLT. Today I'm joined by Dr. Christopher Wyatt. Dr. Christopher Scott Wyatt is an autistic self advocate and father of two neurodiverse daughters. He earned a doctorate while researching online education for students with autism spectrum disorders. His experiences living with physical and neurological differences shape his parenting, why it consults with schools, businesses and nonprofit organisations on issues of autism, neurodiversity, and active inclusion. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to talk to you about educational rights in neuro diversity, as well as creative teaching approaches for students with unique learning styles and needs. Welcome, Christopher.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.
So would you start off by telling us a little bit about your own background and life experiences in your own diagnosis with autism and that brought you to where you are today?
I think it's important to begin with the fact I was born in 1968. And the 60s and 70s shaped my perceptions of special education and the education system in general. I was a complicated birth, I was in ICU as a child, I was a Franklin breech birth, the doctor used forceps to complete the delivery that led to a left frontal lobe in what they call it is adding incurvature or an an inclusion. Basically, the forceps crushed my my skull. I also have a brachial plexus injury, which led to Erb-Duchenne's palsy, I had a collapsed lung. So there were a number of things that from the start led doctors to assume that I was going to be cognitively and physically challenged. Those challenges. Obviously persist and continue. But what that meant was, from an early age, the professionals decided I was broken and disabled. And that led to the early therapies, physical therapy, speech therapy, social therapies of the 1970s. Growing up in California, that would have meant that out of UCLA, we had lavas. At the time, teacher education was also embracing some of the more radical ideas that were improper when we look back on them, but even early Piaget where they were writing that your physical well being goes along with your mental well being. And if your listeners are teachers and went through teacher training, they might have studied some history of education. But this goes all the way back to the ancient Greek and Roman times the idea that a fit mind goes with a fit body. So if you don't have balance, if you don't have those physical characteristics of being good, then your neurological your cognitive abilities must also be impaired. So that was an assumption made throughout the 1970s and 80s of students. And I see that unfortunately, even today. So my journey starts from birth, and takes me through special education into gifted education, and sometimes back out of gifted education and back into it. So those experiences taught me that the labels that we assign things can be very problematic. They are problematic for teachers, they are problematic for administrators. And obviously parents are stuck on this roller coaster of labels. What does it mean? My child is hyperactive now you're telling me my child is cognitively impaired. You're You're telling me my child. This week is PDD in iOS and because of new book comes out, you're now telling me my A child is autistic. These labels carry a lot of weight for parents. And I saw that from the from the perspective of a child and then a teenager watching my parents navigate these systems. As I was growing up, I don't think that teachers and even my parents always understood how much attention children pay to what's going on around them. And so what brought me to where I am is, as a student, as a first grader, as a second grader, I heard what teacher said, and I internalise that. And then later in life, I decided I'm going to become an educator or an education researcher. Because the system is broken, in large part because of the social assumptions, the cultural assumptions that underlie everything we do. I think that's one reason I enjoyed talking with Dr.Grinker, who wrote Nobody's Normal. He an anthropologist who studies mental health, from an anthropology perspective, these are labels. And these labels that you're given throughout life, matter so much when you are in a special education that carries a stigma. And then when you are moved into gifted education that carries a unique set of its own stigmas. And then they started using the word, the phrase twice exceptional, the two E's students twice exceptional. Well, what does exceptional mean is I thought everyone was exceptional. So these labels, children hear these, I heard these, and I said, this is this isn't acceptable, to me, these labels are carrying a lot of weight. Autism carries a lot of weight. Instead of just saying someone is different, we slap a label on those differences. And I think that what, that's what leads us to a perspective of addressing checklists, treating people as these criteria. So that's where I come from. And then now as a parent, of course, I see myself even more as an essential advocate, especially for the the two wonderful daughters I have. But as a parent, now, not just an educator, that, that takes on even more meaning, that past journey, because hopefully, that past ties into what I'm experiencing now.
Absolutely. And there was two things that you touched on that, you know, brought up some awareness for me, and that I, I just, I realised that this is something that happens quite quite often when you were talking about the, the whole aspect of fit body fit mind in that, that idea that if your body's not, you know, fit, then your mind, you know, it can't follow. And, you know, people with that with cerebral palsy often have that that problem getting through to others, that they are of fit mind, even though their body may not show those signs, or they may not be able to speak and to communicate in a way, but their mind is extremely, you know, well developed in full and, and they often in the same way, as autistics are very intelligent, but they they're seen as lesser in through in society sometimes because of what's seen on the outside. And the other thing that you talked about, was their idea of, you know, always kind of overhearing what were the teachers saying about me, you know, and I'm sure much of that, you know, felt very negative and you know, that that really causes young people to have a little bit of self fulfilling prophecy. Well, I'm no good because teacher says, I've heard teachers say, I'm no good, and I'm no good. I must not be good in that. And also, Charles Horton Cooley's looking glass self scenario to where what you hear or what somebody tells you will often make you internalise that and think that for yourself, so I, I can hear the struggles that, that you had as a young person that I think are things that many people often deal with. And I do love, you know, you bringing up the fact that, you know, we are all you know, none of us are perfect, we're none of us are normal. And we all have different elements and things that we go through. So thank you for so much for sharing that with us. It actually brings me to my next question, which is, you know, you touched on neurodiversity, and autism. And neurodiversity, especially for a wider community. If you're not in the education community can be a really big, big word that most of the time people identify with the brain, right neuro diversity in the brain, but beyond that, they don't really have a solid understanding of what it actually is. So if you don't mind taking some time from your own accent and explaining to us what exactly is neurodiversity?
Neurodiversity as a as a term, dates back to about 2008 and wide usage. It goes earlier than that with an advocate, singer, but the and the history as well track in Steve Silberman's book Neuro Tribes, fantastic study of where the neurodiversity movement comes from. Like the thinking Person's Guide to Autism and some other wonderful resources that were started by parents and Autistics to create a movement. And when they wanted to give a name to that movement, the autism community largely adopted the idea of neurodiversity, that instead of treating autism as a medical condition are a pathology, that it was merely a form of diversity that is highly intersectional with thoughts of gender, race, class, everything that goes with that. So the idea that neurodiversity started with the Autistic community, doesn't mean that we lay claim to it as strictly an artistic label anymore. Just like intersectionality started off as a legal theory. For women of colour. Obviously, intersectionality includes far more than women of colour, but that was the early origins of that legal scholarship. So neurodiversity starts off with the assumption that autism is one of the many ways a brain and a person can experience life. I am brought to the ideas of phenomenology. Merleau Ponty in education has written about this. So if any listeners are into again, history of education, Merleau Ponty his work on phenomenology, the idea that our experiences are shaping us and we are shaping our experiences. Well, every child has a different brain, a different learning style, a different learning preference. Every child has a different way of processing visual information, auditory information. And what neurodiversity says is that, though there is a dominant approach in the United States, which is where the neurodiversity movement started, that dominant social approach isn't the only one. Too often. We are presented in education with ideas of collaborative work, we are presented with extraversion as the ideal. Can you speak in public? Can you work in a group? These are all things that my friends and family who work overseas and teach in Hong Kong or Thailand or other countries that sit there and say, What Why are you doing this? That's not how people are, you know, people don't work that and it's. So what that reveals is that a lot of our assumptions about how young children think and how they work are actually cultural. They have nothing to do with actual brain wiring, because you cannot tell me that a child in Hong Kong was wired differently than a child in London, or that a child in London is wired differently from a child in San Paolo, it just No, that does. That does not work for me. So the neurodiversity movement is increasingly trying to say, it's not just autism. But we are all those things that at least in the United States, in our culture, seem to be excluded because we don't follow the model of the extroverts, the group thinkers, the collaborators, that we are processing information differently, that we have different needs than are considered ideal. And I think that that goes back to autistic starting to learn from and bring in things they have learned from the deaf community, the blind community, and other disability communities and saying, Wow, all of our brains are different. And some of these are related to physical manifestations like blindness, or colour blindness, or synesthesia. We have all these things that are brain wires. So what that tells us is, everyone comes from a neurologically diverse background. What neuro diversity as a movement tries to do is say, those of us who are marginalised because of our cognitive differences need to be included more actively and proactively in discussions about education, design, healthcare, design, social support, design, and employment. So the neurodiversity movement is saying, we might not fit the ideal, and that ideal is understandably a North American centric ideal for the neurodiversity movement at this time. But just because we don't fit that ideal doesn't make us lesser. And the great irony is, is many of our traits are desirable in other cultures. So that also then reveals that cultural distinction, so neurodiversity becomes so much more than just, Oh, your brain is different. I can say, Yes, I have a different left frontal lobe, I've had the MRI, I've had the studies done by neuro psychologist. And yes, my brain is different. But my traits make me an ideal worker in some Asian Pacific cultures. But they don't make me the ideal office worker in the United States, or in parts of Europe, were socialising and going to the right cafe and hanging out with people. When those social norms decide your future. My neurodiversity, my autistic traits put me at a disadvantage, as we're in another culture, those wouldn't even be a disability in terms of my social outcome. So that's the neurodiversity movement.
And that's very, very, very interesting perspective, that I've not actually heard before. That, you know, in some cultures, you would be very much embraced, you know, in, in certain jobs and professions and here in the States, but you're absolutely right, like when I hear it, me hearing it, you know, I had to not an agreement with you, because I see that I can see why, you know, that becomes an issue.
If I may, the let me take my my cousin who teaches in Hong Kong, she, she taught in America as well, she was teaching in Washington state before moving overseas. The first thing that struck her students don't make eye contact. Here, we need to correct that you need to look me in the eye, you need to sit a particular way, you need to be an attentive listener, or you're not paying attention, as we're in the Chinese culture and in the the subculture there of Hong Kong, which is anglicised in Chinese. So it has that familiarity with both. Making eye contact, especially to a superior is an insult, and your teacher isn't, is a superior. So my autistic traits would work very well, in the Hong Kong classroom, I don't look at the teacher, I might be looking down, I might be taking notes while there will. There are lectures going on, so I don't forget anything. So my autistic traits in the US that get me in trouble in a classroom would earn me high marks and praise in a Hong Kong classroom. Well, then clearly, this is a cultural understanding of what normal is, normalcy becomes cultural. And neurodiversity seeks to remind people of that, that just because you think autistics are odd, doesn't mean that our traits may not actually fit in very well, and not even be on a checklist in another country.
It's really interesting that you brought it back there to the classroom and to the classroom aspect, because you are a parent to two neurodiverse daughters. And so I'm just wondering, how does being autistic, you know, change parenting, from your perspective, because you've gone through the education system as an autistic person, and now you're parenting children. And from that perspective, that you've experienced yourself that unique perspective, you know, how does that work for you being autistic.
I will give an example here that, to me, contextualises, the difference between what schools of education teach and perceive versus what the childcare services perceive. So my wife and I became foster parents while I was teaching in 2015, with the idea that we were going to adopt, and the caseworkers and the Child and Family Services system was very excited and supportive, the judges who were involved. So the magistrates in Pennsylvania who heard our cases, were very supportive, saying, Oh, wonderful, you are disabled, you have gone through these systems, you can help your child you will be a good role model, you will understand them. That is fantastic. You will understand what their needs are and where your needs weren't met, you can better advocate for your child. Meanwhile, as a teacher, I have been told more than once by professors of education in school districts or universities. Well, how do you relate to students? How are you ever going to be a good lecture? How are you going to connect to other people without empathy? How well hold on here, you're assuming I have no empathy. So it's interesting me as the education system is busy telling me I'm not going to be a good professor, I'm not going to be a good educator or researcher, because I'm autistic. And they had very significant concerns about me teaching children. And at the same time, I have a child care system saying, This is great and wonderful, you will be a wonderful advocate. And I find that divergence troubling. I do think it certainly affects my parenting because as I go to the meetings for educational supports for the girls, whether it's, again here in the United States, the 504 plan that's required, or the individualised education programmes, whichever it is, I am coming at it from the parent perspective differently. Having been through the system, I know what doesn't work. And I know there are not checklists for students, even though that's how education works well. So it makes me far more aware of the failings of the system. When we go into meetings with the schools, especially pre COVID. We haven't had these meetings now for several years. But they would start telling us about autism and what to expect with our kids or what our kids special needs were. And there is a point at which I get frustrated and want to just say, look, it is I'm not just here as a parent, I am a college instructor, I am a published researcher, I am someone with a PhD in research two master's degrees, I happen to know a little bit about autism as an autistic researcher and scholar. And I still get pushback, well, you know, I'm the teacher, or I'm the Special Ed expert, you are not from my field. And you know, this is the checklist that we will provide for your child. So I think I am more aggressive and assertive now, because too often it feels like teachers are trying to dictate to parents, and what they're really doing is saying, this is the checklist that we have for kids with ADHD, they will sit at this table, they will get this number of breaks. with ADHD, we'll give them X number of minutes extra, we will do these, these are the accommodations period. And I'm there saying Every child is different, my child is not going to fit your checklist. So being an autistic parent and researcher, I'm out there saying yes, I understand that for 65% of ADHD children, this particular thing works or for this person of autism, we say this is the best approach. And I'm saying please stop that. Can we please stop these checklist accommodations for my daughter's and please listen to me when I tell you my daughter's putting them on an iPad or a computer is a huge mistake. And so as a parent, I'm there telling them that what their schools of education have told them is incorrect. That is presumptive. So in some ways, it puts me more in conflict with the schools. Because I know what my daughter's needs are. And unlike most parents, I'm not going to let them just tell me the way things are. I think that's why there's such a divide between Special Ed parents in the system Special Ed parents feel like they're condescended down to they hear the condescension from the principals from the support team from the teacher sometimes who are the experts. And, and I heard it too. And, you know, at some point, it's just like, Excuse me, I am a colleague and you may not understand that but I happen to be in the field. So it just makes me painfully aware of what other parents must be suffering through. Because I know that I've gotten defensive and angry with the system and educators. I do hope I'm a better advocate for the girls outside of school, how does it make it different? I am very painfully aware of my sensory overload, my movements, my vocal tone, my my disconnect from idioms and language. So outside of school, I work with the girls as best I can to minimise the stimulation that might trigger them. Physically. The sensory processing I understand those issues I understand the need for a controlled and safe environment a planned routine. So I do my best to help the help my daughters grow and adapt to who they are without any shame. They know they are neurodiverse they have been on the podcast, we've done several episodes. And that we've talked about school to where the they talk about being moved to the wiggle table or being excluded from groups or excluded from PE. And I think that it's important to hear their voices. So as a parent, I'm very attuned to the idea that other parents might say, Well, okay, my six year old is telling me she is bullied by our teacher, but come on, she just doesn't know I pay attention. And can you please tell me what the teacher said? So I can ask the teacher? And sometimes it turns out that what the teacher said, intentionally or not, was outright bully. You know, why can't you be more like Sally who's doing her homework on time? Oh, well, let's not say things like that, please.
And just the connotation of you mentioned, the wiggle table, you know, just the connotation of the wiggle table, I'm sure can be very, very negative for children knowing Oh, great, I've been banished or banned to the wiggle table, that that sets me apart from my other fellow, you know, peers. And it's, it's just, it's just really unfortunate, you know, these types of things. And some of some, some of us initial teacher education have been really trying to push and change policies, practices and procedures in initial teacher education, to get teachers to start thinking more with a universal design for learning approach to be thinking more about rather than, like you had said earlier, you know, the checklists and institutionalising or you know, industrialising, you know, exactly, you know, what each student who may, you know, have this particular disability, or this particular, particular disability fits perfectly in this, this tick box exercise there. But, but trying to get teachers in initial teacher education, so, student teachers to start thinking more about in flight thinking, you know, how can you change as you go and, and address the needs of each of your students individually, it can be done, but I think that, um, so often, in the past, you know, teachers have been told, Well, you got 32 students, and you don't have time to be thinking about every individual student, but actually you do. And if you take them one step at a time, and you can learn about your student and learn about their needs, from the very, very beginning, you can, you can individually teach each child in their own way, in a way that works without any major disruptions in your class. But it's a hard thinking, especially to get even higher education institutions to start, you know, thinking about how they, you know, teach their teachers.
The challenges is, is continuing i. So, I was just before COVID, I was thinking of returning to teaching K 12. And I attended a transfer programme boot camp here in Texas. And I was appalled by what they are teaching new teachers. It was heartbreaking I, I find it very disconcerting. And unfortunately, I found this true in Pennsylvania, Minnesota, California, schools of education that tell them the first thing you need to prioritise before you do anything else is classroom management until you master classroom management, you can't teach. So what happens is, we are teaching our educators to approach the classroom first and foremost as a place you must control. Now then they present it as Oh, but remember, you want a loving environment, a supportive environment, but in the end, they give you a book on control. And they can dress it all sorts of ways. Oh, well say five positive things for every three negatives, so they can have all their posters and all their little cheerful crutches that they want. But in the end, they are teaching teachers to, to have control. And for for many students, that is probably an ideal situation. Yes. And for many teachers that lets them meet the checklist, get approval from their supervisors, get student teaching signed off, get their clear credentials. But I find the entire thing appalling that you start off your teacher training with classroom management, Classroom Strategies, planning strategies. I have very strong opinions about where we're going with those things. And so as a parent, I'm looking Now, from the outside saying, These things don't work, there is research that shows that so much of what education says is good works for yes, a majority, but then you're completely ignoring the needs of the minority in your class. And sometimes I even think it doesn't work well for the majority. But it works superficially for the majority to have these things. So we're gonna stick with them. And, again, as a parent of neurodiverse, daughters, I know how I felt in the classroom, I know how I felt even all the way through my graduate degrees. And that makes me very aware of what they're what they're going through. Our schools of education are stuck in the German Prussian model of the late 1800s. They are not evolving and some of the so called progressive ideas are actually steps backwards and other ways that they don't always see trying to address all those needs as a as a parent becomes overwhelming. And I think that leads to so much of the conflict we're seeing now is between parents and teachers over school closures over school policies over maths mandates, not maths mandates, attendance policies, online learning. The last three years have really highlighted the chasm between parents and teachers that exist and too many teachers don't understand it. Their, their leadership and their unions and their their national organisations don't understand the backlash. They look at it from the standpoint of where the experts trust us. And parents feel like they're not part of the discussion. And quite honestly, too often parents are not part of the discussion.
Absolutely. You know, obviously, you are an expert in the field on many varying levels. Um, and I know that you consult on active inclusion, and you know, what is it what is active inclusion, and how is it different to inclusion.
So, natural inclusion is another word for it that you'll find in the literature. Natural inclusion is where you do things that benefit the disabled population without, without any outward change to the experience for the non disabled. So, for example, as as universities move towards putting in more ramps for wheelchair access and ADA compliance, well, obviously, there were other benefits, as I saw ramps up, upgraded and installed at universities. And, in fact, I had a university that repaired a concrete ramp for me in a parking lot that had had crumbled. Well, when they repaired that concrete ramp, that becomes a natural form of accommodation because it turned out that other professors and students really liked that ramp, because now they're rolling backpacks moved up, the media cards no longer had to be hoisted up over a curb. So this ramp that I did, admittedly raise a stink about my dean was outstanding and getting this address. That ramp that helped me was really a ramp that made life so much easier for everyone pushing around media equipment for everyone pulling around a backpack for everyone who wasn't even disabled, suddenly, they were like, wow, this ramp is great. We should have had this a long time ago. So we need to do a natural accommodation it's making making spaces more accessible while at the time making them more usable for everyone. And we can think about such things as low impact Door Door levers. So a door lever is a wonderful thing, you push the lever down instead of toward turning a knob. Those levers are wonderful. Well, it turns out if you're also pulling a media card or pulling your backpack, you can push that lever down with your elbow if you have to. It's not just about the child, or the adult who has limited mobility. Now everyone can use that lever in terms of making things more accessible. When we think about lighting, we think about transcripts, transcribing content, posting your content online. One of the things I always did and I have done since probably 2004. I record podcast, or at the time, they weren't called podcast, but audio files and screencast and put them on my classroom online show. So even when my classes weren't online, my students could go to a space for my class and then re listen to the lecture. Now that might sound strange, but students miss lectures all A time and it doesn't have to just be for disabilities. I had students though, who were in wheelchairs, or who were blind or deaf and needed special accommodations, by posting my transcripts, my video and other materials online, I had students that you might think are, well, these are the ideal students, the student athletes. I had football players at Fresno State in the University of Minnesota, tell me, my gosh, I know I was in your class, but I didn't catch everything you said. And I really listened to the lecture online, and I read it, and it really helped me. So a natural accommodation presumes that you can do things that yes, on the surface are for ticking the box that says we are ATA compliant, that we are meeting the Americans with Disabilities Act, we are meeting the Higher Education Opportunity Act, the Rehab Act, the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, we're complying with all those things, all those little checkboxes are marked. And yet, you're making a better experience for absolutely everyone in ways that they may not even realise this was an accommodation for disability. Instead, they're just thinking, wow, I can really listen to this lecture. Any time I can redownload the transcript, any time, I can now get into the classroom pulling my my backpack. That's wonderful. All of the desks are now left and right handed. Now one of the things that I've advocated for our desks that are more accessible, well, it turns out when you get those now, it doesn't matter if someone sits down and they're left handed or right handed, or have other disabilities, these these chairs that are admittedly $175 apiece. But they students were just raving about how these wonderful chairs with wheels and access made the college classroom so much more accessible for the left handed student for the student with a sling on an arm from an injury. These natural accommodations are reasonably affordable, they produce a better experience in the classroom, in the workplace at home. And when you have please students, when you have pleased employees, when you have pleased customers, that reduces other stresses. And I think this natural inclusion just makes an environment that is so much better for everyone that I wish we would stop asking people to justify accommodations, and instead just do them naturally, without filling out forms or checklists or whatever. And move to a stage at which we're making everywhere, just a much more pleasant space.
Yeah, and it ah prov, it provides autonomy, you know, for ourselves, without outing ourselves in many ways, like, and you know, you have that autonomy to be able to, you know, utilise a space or, you know, I'm left handed. So I completely identify with what you were talking about earlier with the, I always had to find the one or two left handed, you know, seats in lecture, in order to get that quickly. So that somebody else didn't end up taking it. And, um, you know, it's interesting that you, you keep referring to it as natural accommodation, because what I am hearing is universal design, and Universal Design for Learning. And it's I've not heard anybody use the term natural accommodation before, but I really like that it is yet another level and another layer, in being, you know, being accessible and being in an and having that understanding that natural accommodation, or universal design, or Universal Design for Learning is for everyone. That's the whole point.
And my challenge with things like universal design, is really the cultural baggage of so much of it has come from mandatory regulation, that when people hear that you're going to do a UI UX UD audit of a classroom of a classroom space for those parents and non educators out there. So user, user interface, user experience and universal design UI UX UD, are ways of designing spaces that comply with a set of regulations that are actually published by the federal government, you can actually go to the ADEA websites and download the UI, UX UD outline checklist. And then you mark these off on the internet. These are sometimes called the web aim, or WCAG Web Accessibility Guidelines. And these guidelines are nice, but other checklists, but we need to get out of the checklist mindset and just ask ourselves period. What is the ideal space, what is the ideal approach? Because the checklists sometimes make us my little bit myopic. Okay, our doors 48 inches wide, we're done. But you're not done. Does it have a door jamb that creates a bump that will stop a wheelchair, you know? Or is it flat so the wheelchair rolls properly, doesn't have anywhere where someone who's blind might get caught in and injured with, you know, from a sharp corner or something. So, these things, checklists, don't cover everything, all checklists to us protect US legally when we really need to get out of the mindset as teachers as employers. Okay, I'm in legal compliance, I won't get sued. Okay, that's nice. But what about social and ethical responsibility to go beyond that? And I think when we go beyond that, we stop using the checklist, we will actually be far better off.
Hi, listeners shelleyan Here, sometimes that my guest interviews are so informative, and they have so much really important information that they have to share with us that I have to break these episodes into two parts, rather than try to edit or delete something that's really valuable to you as listeners. And this is definitely one of those. So this is the end of part one. But the conversation and the wisdom from Dr. Wyatt does not end here. So please join us in season two, Episode 29. Part Two, you will not regret it.
I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on A Dash of SaLT, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Seasoned with just the right touch of experts in education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to A Dash of SaLT on PodBean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.