Since President Donald Trump took office, international student statuses have been revoked across the country, leaving many of them scared and in some confusing legal trouble. In response, attorneys have filed lawsuits against the administration in hopes of getting students statuses reinstated. One of those attorneys is rica Sharma Crawford, an attorney in Kansas, in Missouri, and an immigration law professor at the University of Kansas School of Law, I spoke with her on May 5 to talk about the lawsuit she filed on behalf of five international students whose statuses were revoked. Thank you for being here. Thank you so you recently filed a federal lawsuit to challenge the termination of five international students registrations. This is a really broad question to start us out. So can you walk me through why you filed this lawsuit? Yeah,
because what was happening, and it happened in others, approximately 60 cases or so across the country, some of them have now been converted into what are known as class actions, which are multi you know, large number of students who are filing as one, one specific case. So it's sometimes easier to do a class action in these kinds of situations, rather than individual cases. But certainly in the beginning, what has happened is, is that there were cases that were filed by individual lawyers across the country. Because what we started to see is, is that students were getting and they weren't even getting notifications. Their schools were getting notifications that their SEVIS registrations were being terminated. Now what SEVIS is is it is a a program that is administered by the Department of Homeland Security to basically track students, but it also causes some consequences if they're terminated in the SEVIS program, because what it does is, is it basically alerts the school that DHS has terminated SEVIS registration. And then there's some tension there between whether the schools can allow the students to continue to go to school or not, and so we filed litigation when we saw here in Missouri, in the Kansas City area in particular, that there were students who were going through the same kind of situation. There was, there's been schools where I know there was one reported incident where there were, like 43 students terminated in SEVIS. But this is not just limited to Missouri or Kansas. I mean, this is nationwide. There were 43
student visas revoked at Northwest Missouri State. I reached out to every major university in Kansas, meaning the University of Kansas, Kansas State University, Emporia, State University, Wichita State University, Pittsburgh State University, for Hey, State University and Washburn University to ask how many of their international student statuses have been challenged, but didn't receive a number from any of the universities. Rica you got a temporary restraining order for the five students named in this lawsuit. What are the next steps? A temporary
restraining order, by law, is only valid for about 14 days. It's an emergency filing that is done to hold the status quo. And of course, what we asked the court to do is to reinstate, or really reactivate, individuals see this record so that they could go to school and any employment authorization that had been terminated could be restored, while the court looked at the bigger issues of the legal questions at play. So, by nature, a TR expires within a short order of time. And then, of course, the court will set the matter for what is called a preliminary injunction hearing. And that hearing is like I said, We're scheduled for the seventh for that to see whether or not the court will extend the TRL, convert it to a permanent TR permanent injunction while the case is ongoing. And of course, our request to the court is is that they convert this to a permanent injunction while this case is ongoing. Because what we have noticed is even with the order that was issued by the court on april 26 the Department of Homeland Security has not complied fully with that order. And so, of course, the concern for us is, is that absent the intervention of the court, that they will continue to disregard what needs to be done in order to ensure that these students do not have irreparable harm. Interesting,
so you said they're not complying fully with the order. What do you mean by that? So
the request we had is that, is, if you have a termination on a date and the court even orders you to reinstate you, what will happen is, is, is that there's a gap that's created, because if you're terminated on the first but you're reinstated on the 10 well, then there's a nine day gap in the middle of your SEVIS record, which, for most students going forward, that's going to cause issues, because it means that they've fallen out of, you know, there's this gap that prevents them from asking for work authorization and ask, you know, if they want to change status. There's this gap in their SEVIS record. So there's some tensions there that need to be addressed, and our concern is, is that, you know, we ask that they be restored and made whole from the point that this unlawful action was taken on the part of Department of Homeland Security, that's not happened, and so that is why we're asking the court to continue to grant the injunction and to monitor the situation since, well, unmonitored, they don't seem to do what the court has ordered them to do.
Right? Thank you for answering that so we know where it's going and what the next steps are, and what is your long term goal with this case? What is the ultimate goal of this lawsuit? Well,
I think the coordinates needs to make a determination, right? I mean, the SEVIS terminations were unlawfully done, and you know, since then, there has been a policy, policy announcement that DHS has has put out. The weird thing about that whole thing is, is that normally, when you make some kind of a rule change. You go through what is called notice and comment, you put a notice out to the public. You allow them to comment. There's rule making that occurs. Where we have seen this policy change show up is in litigation. It is showing up as well. We've now changed the policy, and they're being it's being offered up in the middle of litigation across the country, in some cases, not all cases. And so the question now becomes, this is, well, what is this now? Right? Because this announcement of the policy has not followed normal protocols. It is so broad that it basically says we can terminate whoever we want, whenever we want, which I think is yet even more dangerous than what has occurred. And then beyond that, there are regulatory limitations on when SEVIS can be terminated, and this policy, again, seems to go completely contrary to what the law says they're authorized to do. So part of the problem becomes, is, you know, long term goal is to kind of figure out, what is the Department of Homeland Security doing, and are they just kind of band aid approaching these reinstatements to try and basically say, see, nothing to see here. Courts go away. Now we're going to go and do this in mass and unlawfully again. So I think that the end goal here is is to make sure that they're not engaging in unlawful, unauthorized conduct to where these students are going to be harmed, not only now, not only in the past, but also going forward. A
big argument that's been made in these cases across the country is that these students are not receiving due process. And on May 4, President Donald Trump said that he's not sure if non citizens deserve due process. How does due process, or the lack of it, apply to the students in this specific lawsuit?
Well, I mean, the issue is, is, is that they were not notified, right? Their schools were noted, and they're being told there, there are these generic language right? That says there's been some criminal activity. We don't know what that is, because what we're seeing is is it could be a traffic infraction, it could be anything. And what we know is, is that in looking at some of the transcripts from where people have testified in terms of what led to this, there's no clear answer, you know, when you think about that, the concept of due process is baked into American jurisprudence, going all the way back to the the, you Know, 1200s right? We're from the inception of the country, and here you have somebody who is acting in a completely opaque manner with no transparency impacting people's schooling and their liberty and their and their rights even to go to school without any kind of proper notice, without any kind of proper hearing, that's very, very concerning. And I know that the President, over the weekend also said that he wasn't sure if he could could say that the Constitution applies to all people. I mean, that's really we are so far off the normal pale here that you would be setting aside all notions of what this country was built on. And I think that is such a dangerous track, because where does it end? You start with the students, and then, you know, you go to US citizens, you, you it's just has such incredible reverberations in terms of what you're saying when you say due process cannot be guaranteed in the
United States. So you mentioned that people have been flagged for things like traffic violations. What else have these students been flagged for? Have there been any major infractions? We
don't know that's the whole thing, right? We're sitting here trying to guess. Well, maybe it was this, maybe it was that, but we don't know. And that is the problem is, is that no one in any hearing in like I said, there's now been 60 plus hearings across the country, no one has come forward and said, This is why this person was specifically, you know, targeted. In fact, when you look at the transcripts, they basically say there were approximately 1.3 million cases that were reviewed by 20 officials. I mean, just the numbers are mind boggling. There's no way that that kind of numbers, and those kinds of review could be done with any kind of diligence. You know, when they say that, well, we flagged about 63 6700 cases, and we sent them to the consular official to say, Can you do any kind of individual review? And less than 24 hours later, the response that came back was terminate them all what individualized assessment was made. So, I mean, the answer to your question is, we can? We don't know. We don't know what any of this is, right?
So in your lawsuit, you mentioned some personal experiences of the students whose service status has been terminated. You have jobs, lost, internships, lost work, lost health insurance, lost and also massive mental health repercussions of things like this. So can you talk more on the personal experiences of the students highlighted in this lawsuit?
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I think that the timing of this right? You are coming into final exam season. Graduations are happening. They've already started when these students should have been focused on getting ready for final exams. I can't even imagine right the stress that they were under that you're trying to get ready for exams. And on the top of this, you now are being told by some schools, you can't go to classes, or you can't continue to have your 20 hour job on campus, or your OPT or your you know your work authorization with which you're doing your practical training has been terminated. Just the level of stress. It's it's cruel. It really is cruel. And I think that you know, you want to say, Well, clearly this couldn't have been deliberate, but I can't say that it wasn't just when you look at how arbitrary and capricious the decision making was, you almost have to say, Gosh, cruelty was part of the plan here, because some people left me the five that I have as plaintiffs have not left. But there are people who basically said, we're leaving, because then the notifications that they got from their school was, you have to leave. Your visa is expired. Yeah, right, your visa has been revoked, and you have to leave. And so some people did, and now they don't have a way to come back, and the investments that they made in their education and in their selves, mean it's lost. I think it's, I think it's outrageous, if
an international student receives a notification saying that their status has been terminated, What should their immediate next steps be?
Well, I mean, I think they're they're doing the right things, right? I mean, I think talking to council, getting getting information from their schools, getting their their records pulled to see what's going on, exercising their legal rights. I think those are all things that they should be doing. What they shouldn't be doing is, is something that, you know, a lot of times with the legal profession, and in particular when you're dealing with immigration, what tends to happen is, is people tend to say, well, I can go on, you know, a Facebook group and get my case assessed. And, you know, it's a, it's these, these large student communities that exist on Facebook and whatnot. And they kind of try and help each other, which I get, because resources are sometimes limited. But you know, you don't go on to a student or even a a Facebook group to say, hey, I need surgery. Where should I count? And sometimes I feel that the legal profession tends to be that marred with that kind of thing is, is that they, they tend to say, well, you know, my case looks like your case. And I always say to people, Look, I don't know that that's the safest way to do it. You know, getting some some professional advice sometimes is the best way, especially when you're dealing with immigration, because, you know, things that go off the wire or go off the rails in a particular point later on, they may not be able to be fixed. And so I think you know for the most part, I commend the students for, you know, opening up those channels and looking for the information. But I also caution them to say, Look, your case isn't necessarily like your friends Casey. Even though it looks the same, and that would be the number one thing I would tell them to do, is to be cautious in doing those kinds of things. Or, you know, I saw that there were some students who had paid companies that were offering up ginned up versions of pleadings for large amounts of money, and then they were telling them to go file on their own. But, you know, these are things that are complicated. The courts need to be educated on some of this stuff. Because, you know, if they don't handle these cases on a regular basis, they need to be educated. And these students were being left to go into court by themselves to try and explain this to the to the to the courts for hearings. And I just think, God, you know, some of that stuff you can't fix later on. So, so I would caution them against that.
You mentioned that universities are helping students who are facing these problems. How are universities doing that? What help are they offering these students? I
think they were diligent in I think they were diligent in giving out the right information that says, Look, we will help you connect with with competent legal counsel. We will help you make sure that you are being notified quickly, because they again, you know, it was the schools that were notified. It wasn't the students that were notified. In some instances, there were schools that said, we're going to let you continue to go to school because we're not going to participate in this. They did that at some peril to themselves, and so you have to commend those that stood up and said, we're not just going to side with fear. We're going to side with our students and we're going to stand up for our students.
Have there been any Kansas universities who have allowed their students to continue to attend classes with their status terminated. I
believe there was one school, and I'm not going to name the school that did advise students not that they could not go to
school, that they couldn't go to class at all. Yeah,
they were prevented from going to class. I think they later changed course on that, but I think their initial reaction was, the student come back with classes. Got you?
Are you working directly with any universities, or are you just a resource that is given to students? Um,
so I'm not working directly with universities, but I did reach out to a number of them to say, you know, look these the litigation was coming, and they have been actively seeking out that information. So while I did not go to them and say, hey, you know, if you have anybody, I did say to them, I am going to file litigation. And then they advise their students that if they needed assistance, that's what was going to happen. So
what are some other ways that universities can help their students? Are they helping their students enough? Do they need to help them more? I think
they can help them with mental health counseling, social service counseling, right? I mean, sometimes, I mean, if you think about it, it is, it is critical that not only do they have the legal backing, but they also have the stamina mentally, that if they know that, look, you know, there are resources available that they're not going to get thrown out of their dorms, or they're not going to, you know, whatever that looks like for for them, whether it's, you know, a town hall meeting with students to say, look, we know this is a really scary time, but we're here with you. I think that can really go a long way
for this story. I reached out to every major university in Kansas and asked what they're doing to help international students facing termination. I didn't hear back from the majority of the universities, but Pittsburgh State University and Fort Hays State University said they're aware of the cases and are working to connect students with resources. Rica, why do you think that the universities didn't respond or responded with a fairly vague answer? You know the
I will say that the number one tool that this administration has used is fear and intimidation. We know that across the country, whether it's law firms, whether it's lawmakers, whether it's federal judges, whether it's state judges, we know that fear and intimidation is part of their tactics, so I can't really say that. I i fault the universities for being scared. I mean, some universities, Harvard University, right, has been targeted to say, we're going to come after you and cut off funding. So, I mean, these are real fears that a variety of areas are feeling and so that they don't want to go on record as saying, doing it, excuse me, saying or doing anything that even could be remotely interpreted as being against the administration. I mean, I think that's that's the goal. That is what it is.
So you mentioned fear and intimidation are tactics that this administration is using. And you've been an immigration attorney for a long time. Through the first Trump presidency, through Biden's administration, and now again, through another Trump presidency. Has there been an increase in student visa cases under the new administration? Well, this is
unheard of. I mean, this level of see this terminations. I think that's kind of what, what shocked the conscience of courts and communities and schools is to say, you know, these are not people who are out doing crazy things. These are students trying to go to school, right? And I do think that there is, it started with the demonstrations and the free speech issues that were going on in some of the universities. That's where it started, and then, of course, you know, snowballed into what you saw across the country. So, yeah, I mean, I think this is kind of unprecedented. School universities. University campuses have historically been places where dissent is encouraged, because they are schools where you can you can look at new ideas and explore new ideas and have conversations and dissent in a meaningful way that you are trying to and you have an administration that is hell bent on basically quashing dissent. I think that, again, is at the core of the First Amendment. Like these are constitutional protections, whether it's due process or the First Amendment or the right to assemble peacefully, all of these things are it's pretty remarkable and extraordinary what's happening and not in a good way. So you
mentioned opposition to dissent and how that has snowballed into what we see today. One of the most followed student cases has been Mahmoud Khalil's case, the Columbia University student who was a prominent figure in the university's pro Palestine student encampments last spring. Did any of the students in this lawsuit, or any of the students who have come to you for legal help participate in those encampments? No,
none of my plaintiffs have have the First Amendment issue here. I know that there are a number of them across the country that did, but none of them, well, not that I know of, because they haven't made the allegation. And certainly, certainly based on what we believe that you know they are using, or the reasons that they're using in my in my case, we don't believe that's one of the issues. But again, there's no transparency. So can they shift later and say it was possibly, but we just don't know, right? And I will say, you know the First Amendment issue, it's also not just limited to students, because if you're following the case of the gentleman who in Vermont was taken into custody at his USCIS interview, he was also accused of being well. He also is a student who is a green card holder, also accused of exercising his first amendment rights right.
Mohsin madawi was detained for his pro Palestinian activism, where he worked closely with mud Khalil. He was detained on April 14 and released on May 1
so I think that's not truly a SEVIS case. But again, you're seeing this spill over into other aspects, where the quashing of First Amendment speech is going on with students, whether it's, you know, through just taking them into custody and terminating their SEVIS registrations, or you know where in his case, he had appeared for his interview before USCIS. Do
you think these SEVIS termination cases, especially for students like mu Kil, are hindering international students confidence to speak out against the administration or to protest? I think
it's hindering them wanting to be here or come here. And in some ways, I think that is also the plan, because if you can economically impact the universities, then the universities will bend to your will. So I think that, you know, if you think about this, during COVID, the universities had so much trouble, you know, because people weren't able to come. Students weren't coming because of the COVID restrictions. And what we saw was the university suffered incredibly economically. But if you take this and you juxtapose it next to what they what they're doing with the law firms, right is, again, it's an attempt to economically stifle them so that they will bend to the will of the administration, which I think is incredibly dangerous.
Are you seeing any universities who are economically harmed by this bending to the will of the administration? I
mean, I think, I think that litigation has kind of helped stay that off a little bit. But, I mean, if you think about it, if it'll be interesting to see if they see a drop in international student registrations coming into maybe not the summer, but certainly the fall, right? And so I think that if you see that where your people are leaving and they don't want to come back, or they're looking to other countries to go to school, I could see. Where that then plays out very much in the same way that you saw with the with the big law litigation, where you have the heads of these universities trying to strike a deal with the with the administration to say, back off, so that we can get back on our feet. I feel like that might happen
while your lawsuit is a case that international students should keep an eye on. What are some other developing cases that could change the course?
So I think there's a number of class actions that have now been filed. As I said. They're the one in Georgia has a class action. I believe there's one in Washington, DC that is also being transferred into a transitioned into a class action. What that does is, is that class action allows for basically a nationwide action, and because, you know, there's multiple law firms that are working on that class action action, it allows for a bigger, bigger stone to be thrown in the river, so to speak. So those are worth watching, because they can impact some of these individual cases and really kind of take the strain off of the individual cases, because the nationwide class actions will take over at that point and seek a remedy that is
across the board. I know you said that it's unclear exactly why their records are being terminated. But is there anything international students can do to avoid this?
I mean, at this point, we don't know why they're terminating them. We don't know what they're doing. We do know that the policy seems to be shifting, you know, and the ground is shifting. So I feel like in some ways, the greatest thing that they can do is stay informed, not overreact. Don't take any kind of, you know, over exaggerated knee jerk reaction. So for example, the individuals that basically packed all their things and left, in some ways, I think they are harder to bring back. They are harder to kind of make sure that their rights are preserved because they're out of the country, those challenges are there. So I think knowledge is power, and making informed decisions that are calm are the best things that students can do right now, because it allows them to make sure that they are using their rights and using their voice in a way that best protects them, and they may still lead right, they may still make those decisions, but at least they're informed decisions and not made out of emergency.
Rica, thank you for taking the time to talk with me
today. Thank you for having me. I think this is so important that folks like you are getting the message out and the word out, not only on this issue, but on other issues as