Episode 29: The Godfather Part II (1974) & Heat (1995) - Movie Connections
3:31PM Mar 13, 2023
robert de niro
Whoa, just curious. Welcome to Just curious media. This is let's talk movies. And I'm Jason Connell on the show today I'm joined by Brian Beasley.
How you doing, Jason?
Good, Brian, it's good to have you back my friend.
It's been a while back. And it's been a little while but I am super excited to talk about our movie connections today are two. Oh, I
cannot wait. We are going to make a connection between the Godfather Part Two, which came out in 1974 and heat, which came out in 1995 movie connections. And before we get into it, and even the connection that be we have not had an episode of Let's Talk movies, meaning me, but just curious media has that an episode? Since late August, I believe. And you were Thank you very much. And you were on that episode. Because it was this is like three parts three movie connection episodes. But when I got home after I saw you in LA, we recorded then we moved. We purchased a house in New England and Rhode Island. And then the moving ensued which is just like, wow, you haven't moved in a while I have I've moved cross country and then moved again. This is a permanent move. I am tired of moving.
I don't blame you, man. Moving is not fun. But congratulations on the new house my friend.
Thank you very much. And so and then when I almost got back in studio I got involved with the mystic Film Festival is one of the directors ran that which is amazing. It Back taps back into my film festival routes. We'll talk about that more. But both with my fans, our fans and you. But all that happened. And if that's not enough, just curious media has launched a new podcast, the doggone podcast came out in November, more episodes to come. So we've had our hands full. I'm not making excuses. But here we are. With this episode. Long overdue and we've got more in the can so look for more offerings coming from let's talk movies. But today,
what are we talking about today?
We're gonna break down these two iconic movies directed by legendary directors you want to say,
Francis Ford Coppola and Michael Mann don't get any better. Huge.
And the connection between the two movies I just said The Godfather Part Two and heat. And the fact that Al Pacino and Robert De Niro play leading roles in each film, and that's what we're going to delve into.
That's the big, buddy. Yeah, everybody makes a big connection. Big surprise, guys.
If you're a cinephile, you know all about this, but hey, this is we want to have fun with it. And break it down like we have on previous movie connection episodes. But in this one, the Godfather Part Two comes out in 1974. And I know you went to film school in New York, and I'm a been a cinephile my whole life. This movie is truly iconic. You can watch today. I think you watched it yesterday.
You know, I watch it all the time. It holds up as good as it gets. Now, I know there's always a debate, oh, you know what sequel is better than the original? And everyone might raise their hand and say Godfather Part Two. And I would just say pump the brakes. We don't need to say better than how about equal to you because I can't diminish the first one. I would say there's not a better one two punch out there in existence than the Godfather, the Godfather Part Two. I know people want to get all like, oh, T twos better than Terminator. Well, first of all, not true. But this one, I don't think it's better. It's not trying to be the same. And I think that's what wins on the story, the way it breaks into two different stories, which we'll get into because it deals with our characters. And let's just dive into that. I mean, so those who don't know, this is the saga of the Corleone family that brought to life by Francis Ford Coppola written by Mario Puzo. And it's an amazing tale. I mean, the third one, I can enjoy it more now. They also read it as it's back out. It has its moments, but these two incredible we also did a documentary produced with Albert Ruddy, who produced the Godfather, it was great to hear tales from him about it. So I felt like I'm pretty well versed. But we're just kind of popping in here and talking about our characters because Brian Al Pacino and Robert De Niro were both in this movie, but what did they not do together?
They did not start there's there's no scene with the two of them together. No, no, the whole I mean, the idea of course, cope was idea and Puzo's idea was to show the rise of the family and then also at the same time to show the demise of the family and you've got a father and son, basically at the same age, kind of doing what they can for their families. Robert De Niro plays the Vidocq Corleone character who of course was played by Marlon Brando in the first movie. And we see him as a kid coming over to Ellis Island and then eventually dinero Alex over the part.
And it's back in the 1910s. Yeah,
I think yeah, I think in time, I think it's 1917. Exactly. And then we jump forward and we see Michael Corleone play by Al Pacino in 1958. And kind of like, where he's taking the family. You know, there's this, there's this early on, there's just amazing fade that goes from young Vito Corleone sitting in quarantine basically, because he has smallpox at LSI. And, and it fades to his grandson, I guess, getting confirmation I think. And in 1958, and not only have we spanned all these decades, but they've also spanned the length of the country. We've gone from New York City all the way to Nevada. We're in we're in Lake Tahoe, and it just shows like how through these three generations, how big the family has grown, and it was kind of an amazing, I didn't really put that together until I was rewatching. Yes, I was like, Wow, what an amazing it's just a little fade. And and you know, and that's those are two storylines is Al Pacino is as of the 1958 1989 Michael Corleone and basically his descent into into sending his family into hell basically, because he's the devil in The Godfather, too. And then his Robert De Niro playing the the Vito Corleone character and kind of like how the family rose to the position that they had.
I should cue the music here. And well, let's do it. Boom. All day yesterday, all day. So that is Michael. And the poster is just Michael Corleone because in the first movie, it ends with him taking it over the family, the kissing in the ring, the least resistant son, the one who didn't want the throne he didn't want thrust upon. He was the one who was most capable. And it's true with Friday and of course the other brother got killed. And in Tom Hagen's, not a son. He's Irish. Speaking of Ellis Island thing, my grandfather went through that whole thing leaving Ireland, Ellis Island. So every time I watch it, I'm just thinking back to those days. It's such a beautiful movie, The sequel and the original. But to see that, that back and forth. In fact, you want more of each storyline? It's so well told. It's like and they go back. And if Bruno Kirby and Jung didn't, it's like, oh my gosh, this is so great. But then to see like you said, how Michaels growing the business there in Vegas, he's going to Hollywood, they go to Cuba. I think at least Rosberg is like who is its rival actor and start the whole I was there acting coach was malecha. Exactly coach, he he's had schools in New York. He's incredible in the movie and his choices. So I watch it now and just get something new every time like you did yesterday. Like Eric, you can go back and go, Oh, I didn't even realize that. Or, of course Diane Keaton's fantastic, but it is the demise as much as you don't want it to be. He's running the family down and at the risk of alienating his whole family.
Right? He does.
Which he does successfully. Yeah, absolutely.
What I find fascinating, and, you know, the the main movie connection, obviously, he's these two actors that were had been on top of my game. They're the total life their total. Yeah, exactly. And crossword was their teacher. So to have him in this movie is also kind of a coup. That and I'm sure you know, but she was talked in the length that it was, you know, kind of like a lifetime dream to be able to act on film with with Strasburg. And like you were saying, like, Coppola was so good at giving you just enough in each timeline, because when you do leave, you're like, oh, I want to see it. You do? Exactly. Um, and you know, that's, you know, leave the audience wanting more like that's that's one of the brilliant
asks why we revisit it totally. And I could add up the Oscar nominations in this movie and the original need their own episode, so we'll save some of that it's highlight nominated. Coppola was against himself for Best Picture, because he also did the conversation. Yeah, in between. So as like, it's just unbelievable. He was at the height of his power. And this movie, besides the cast we're talking about is loaded and we will save that but we want to really just focus on the two characters because here are these two icons still relatively young in their career. I mean, go back in time, the first one Pacino was nearly fired. The studio wanted nothing to do with them. And they showed them the gun scene where he shot him out. You know, he got the gun hidden in the toilet and comes out and blows them away. Like I it shows the studio the dailies died, the kid can stay in the picture. And the rest is history. But these two don't have a scene. Yes, it's father son. You see a super young Michael but it's not Pacino. So it was always so that's weird. That's 74 The craziness is Scorsese or someone else didn't just put them in a movie. It took Michael Mann to 1995 to do it now. I don't know how many Miss chances and lost opportunities that they balked at scripts the set and the other if there was almost some close calls that I don't know. But
Jason, I can tell you there were quite a mess.
I figured there had to be. Apparently,
Pope of Greenwich Village was supposed to attach to it was them and neither of them end up in neither one of them. Eric Roberts and
Yes. Oh my god. Why am I blanking on his Mickey Rourke? Mickey Rourke? Thank you. Fantastic job. Oh, they did? They did. Then they're supposed to be a 1900. Together. The Chino couldn't do it. dinero goes in it. And then on the flip side, Glengarry Glen Ross, apparently Pacino really wanted and yeah, he really wanted to Nero to play the Levine character. And it didn't it didn't work out and that eventually went to the absolutely amazing Jack Lemmon.
Jack Lemmon kills it and that reveals lots of deals. However, that's also in the 90s. I'm just
saying it. That's right. This would have been like a year and a half before preceded it just a little Yeah. And here's the here's the best one Scarface apparently, now you're talking to Scorsese had Scarface and wanted to Nero and it and then eventually it went over to Pacino and because De Niro and Scorsese couldn't do it. And De Niro was the one that told Pacino was like, Hey, you should check out this guy. dipalma I think you'd be perfect to make this movie. And so it just kind of shows it just got to show that they wouldn't have been in together. Right? No, they wouldn't they I guess you're right. I guess you're right. They wouldn't have been either or. That would have been
interesting to hear. Just take as cocaina say hello. I'd love to hear to take
everything. Guess I guess. I guess the point of that is just kind of showing like these guys we're all constantly getting offered the same. Oh, absolutely. There's there's so many sliding doors and different stuff that either one could have been in, but they were also influencing each other's career like they're sure. But you know, it says that, you know, Raging Bull is by far De Niro's favorite role. And De Niro is me. He's obsessed with Michael Corleone like he just is like, there's no better role.
And I could have seen Pacino and Goodfellas, I know he was great. And Donnie Brasco, which has that feel that mob feel and it's good movie really good movie, but I would slip in Pacino and Goodfellas, how's that not happened? 1990. You know, but whatever. I'm not seeing love seeing that disappointed. I just find it shocking. However, it was this movie, which we're going to talk about now. What was he? Because it's in the right hands. Michael Mann who's brilliant. Yeah. And it couldn't have been better. It could have been a dud. And we're all going Wow. Now it was this moment, this scene which there's it's like the scene, but they're in this movie. And we can pivot now. And when we pivot let me bring on
top slide please. There you slide.
So now let's get into heat which we have said came out in 1995 microman written and directive course. You know well, Coppola, you know the name Michael Mann had done Miami Vice had done man hunter, and has done Hey, he's nominated for four Oscars in his own right. We'll ask the Mohicans. What was the insider was a huge hit insider group. So and I think he was a producer on the aviator, but he's involved in so many things. And but I don't know if he's made a better film than heat.
It's fantastic. And Zopa is for sure.
It's it's open. And honestly, he
knows it. Like I mean, he has as we'll talk about it at the end of this episode, like he's revisited this universe and other mediums.
Yes. And the cast when you go back and watch it again, which I watched it yesterday, just I was just gonna watch the scene. And of course I got well let me just start at the top. I'm just enjoying the movie, right? But you see others actors, a lot of young actors talent that went on to have great careers besides our two heroes. It's like oh my god. And can I just say Jon Voight amazing in this role,
so good. So good, is gross, greasy hair.
He just embodies the role Val Kilmer is great. And I know you've actually we're also greasy, I met Val Kilmer. So there's a tie with six degrees away. We're one degree away. There we go. I love it. So and I've actually talked to Wes Studi, who's an Oklahoman and I ran into him at the gospel dead center Film Festival. We were chatting it up we have a mutual friend he's and last mohicans is the main bad guy and Michael Mann mu So I love that he tends to cast the same, but he cast Al Pacino as
Al Pacino plays Vincent Hanna, the our lieutenants to the ground. Dog. Yeah, Lieutenant. That's right. Who is obsessed with his job quite honest. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. And then Robert arrow is played he plays
Robert. So Robert De Niro plays our main bad guy, Neil McCauley, who is a thief basically, and is also obsessed with it, you have two men who are really, really good at what they do. And they're also extraordinarily obsessed with what they do to the point of knowledge, Carnage all around, doesn't matter. Knowledge doesn't matter. Knowledge, yes, they're very knowledgeable, but it doesn't matter who gets hurt or who gets in their way know, the job that they're there to do is the most important thing in their lives.
And they're both the smartest guys in the room. And that's what I think this movie really excels at, before we get into their scene. They're both leading teams of people. dinero is leading his criminals. And he's the smartest guys got the chops. He's super bright. And he just happened to go that way in life, and Pacino is the same and he's got all of his cops in line all of his detectives, and they, you know, they're trying to solve something, he comes out and says, No, this is how it happened. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So it is known that these forces are going to intersect at some point in time, and it's just thrilling. I can just watch them interact with their teams. And it's so satisfying. Like, oh my God, look at these guys. So let me just give the synopsis just because it also paints a picture. It is a group of high end, professional thieves start to feel the heat from the LAPD when they unknowingly have a clue at their latest heist. Now, you know, I love also older movies, because it's like, oh, man, that was la then because I moved there in Oh, four. But were you already there when this movie was filmed? No,
this one came out while I was still in film school, but I came into 96. But I was there like a year later. So you're pretty close on the tail. Yeah,
you were that time where, you know, downtown was a whole other thing. A lot of this movies downtown downtown LA until like, the last scene was different man. So it's, it's amazing to see that landscape. Yeah, that shootout scene. I've been around there. I've been to many of these locations. But the movies held in high regard. But again, a lot of the heat on this movie was the fact that you had these two guys on opposite sides. Then one night, they're buddies, right? That have been one thing. They're buddies in a movie, okay, they would have been in a movie together. But it's that they're on opposite ends. And it's so far into the movie. But we're in the movie a good ways until they collide. And we can kind of if you want to jump into that, I think you had some parallels you wanted to cut?
Yeah, well, no. I think it's brilliant. First of all, Michael Mann was really good at understanding exactly what this scene was going to mean, right? Like he understood, he understood that this was a big deal that not only did you know, he's got both of these guys's movie, but that he's going to have this scene that the move the first hour and a half or whatever builds up to the scene. This isn't the food doesn't end with this scene. This movie that seems pretty much right in the middle. And there's cat and mouse throughout the whole first act and the beginning of the second act until we get to the scene. And they're kind of they're almost impressed with each other like there's, you know, especially the especially, you know, Vincent Hanna chinos character because basically what leads to this scene is they Vincent Hannah has, you know, Robert De Niro's character and his crew under surveillance, and they're waiting for them to make this big score. And they meet in this like, they meet down at the docks, I think it's like, probably done in Long Beach somewhere. And then they disperse, and then the chinos Hanna's the cops come in, and they're like, looking around. They're like, why did they meet here? And then it kind of dawns on Hannah, that they're under surveillance that look like Robert De Niro, Errol. Yeah, that's right. Robert De Niro and his crew are now taking photos of them. And as amazing saying it really is and it's also amazing realization right? And at that moment, you it sets the seed of like, for HANA to be like, Alright, I gotta meet this guy like this. This is working. Yeah, he's working on a different level.
It's like breakable. You know, you have one guy who's you can never get killed on it and Mr. Glass. They are. They are on opposite sides. And you're right I will wrong. And that scene when they go there, didn't hear I was doing like, oh, that's over there. You got the freeway over there. Doing a fake setup. Like this score is going to be in this like, crazy industrial place with all these freeways around and then all of Pacino's team, no one's figured it out that they've been hacked. Add, but he does. He's like, is this guy good is this guy he knows what
He's just skating it goes to show the detail oriented that both of these guys are up to, because in the first before that, but chinos the cops are doing all this due diligence on McCauley his crew, and now it's been flipped. You know, it's so it starts with the scene where, you know the scene right before the dinerstein Hannah's in a helicopter basically. And I was really paying attention to the dialogue again, it's actually what studi who he's talking to on the radio, and he radios down to the cars and he's like, You guys got him? Like, basically, do you have eyes on McCauley? And what students characters? Uh, yeah, we've we've got, what is it? We've got two units in front and three units in back. So there's five cars following him around 24 hours a day. Yeah, I'm not trying to bust they're just track go. They're just watching. Ever. I was like, I was like, that's kind of obsessive. Right. But that's exactly who Robert chinos character is. He's completely obsessive. Right? And so he lands the helicopter at Vermont, the exit. I know it well. Well, he's like Mee Mee Mee Mee at the exit ramp on Vermont, gets in the car chases them down, pulls them over. They both pull their guns.
You know, well, not on each other. But they have they do
they do. They pulled but they pull them out. They both Yeah, you know, they're down at their sides, but they're ready for anything. And he just wants to do is like, hey, yeah, can I buy you a cup of coffee? And I love that, that dinero immediately answers like, it's, there's not like this long pause of like, what's he up to? He knows, like, McCauley knows exactly what's going on. He's like, This guy wants to wants to kind of look me up and down really close. I was like, I'm gonna look this guy up and down. Like, and so I thought it was great. Because they don't mess up. You know? Because I remember when watching the movie theaters, like oh, this is the shootout. This is like, we're gonna be another hour like, like, Nope, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna pump the brakes. Yeah,
so to be clear, this was their first scene, but it's not the scene. It's the setup to the scene. So he's just come up. And the first things just to be specific, are super accurate. The first thing they ever say to each other, it's how you doing? How you do it, it's like, oh, all this anticipation. And then it doesn't say anything. He's looking around. Like, is there another gap tracking me over here who's behind it?
That's really important. Very don't actually they do look at each other. But they also because even even even matino is kind of like, you know, they're on the freeway like he's looking around. It's like, no, they're not even they're barely glancing at each other. It's not until we, as you said, we get into the next scene and where are we tell it tells what?
Well, Hey, guy, well, but he then he says, What do you say I buy you a cup of coffee. And it's then that Neil McCauley. dinero says, Yeah, sure, let's go. So then we head off. So follow me is what Vincent says, Follow me in the car. And I love it. He's alone because he could have gotten a squad car and he got more cops in the way but it was beautiful man's choice to put, you know, man to man, Moto moto. We don't need other people that just get in the way. It goes. He's got a big team. So it's just them. He follows him and they drive to which is amazing Kate man Fellini's which I had been to I say had not because I moved because they shut down. After 27 years. They close June 2014. I was there that week, but I went there many rooms over the years. I was in there one night, like what's the celebration this week, and I heard they lost the lease. But it was a major establishment at nine one. Wilshire Boulevard, Beverly Hills, California. 90210. Just like the show, and it was it wasn't it was just like good and fun American cuisine, but the drinks were great. The atmosphere was just It was amazing. The staff was great. And I gotta say, very matter. If you went there after the movie came out, I moved there and Oh, four. I was going there like, Oh 607 2010 Big pictures of heat on the wall black. Which is awesome. Like, oh my god. It's the coolest. I'm sure you had some experiences there yourself.
And yeah, I mean, it's, it was a Hollywood staple. I mean, it was, I mean, screenwriters and directors and producers would meet there for lunch every day. So yeah, a classic classic restaurant and honestly, there's no it's you know, here's what so you know, man again so brilliant. There's an establishing shot. There's no it little you know, it's it's one dirty single cut to another dirty single over the shoulder of each character. Apparently he you know, he said that he shot a third camera that there is a shot of the two of them. And he said he could Never cut to it.
Because what do you mean this right here? They means this.
That there it is. That's it never cut. So you never see that shot on the
film. Yes, those who are listening and not seen I have had posters up for each movie. And now I have what why don't you explain what they're looking at?
Yeah, basically, you're just looking at the you're looking at the two shot and we've got Pacino to the frame left in the narrow frame, right. And you can see the kitchen back behind them. And but the point is, is that you can see both of their faces. It was
it was a good choice, because it was a good choice. You get them and you know, they're in the same room. This isn't one of those things where it's like, hey, he was in a good way. No, that's not how
do you nothing. Did you ever hear this? Like there were I mean, this movie came out kind of when the internet was on the rise, but this was actually a pre internet rumor that, that they weren't in the scene together. Did you ever hear that?
I heard that rumor, but never bought it. And then I've heard Michael Mann recently. Come Yeah,
he literally says it's complete nonsense. They have too much respect for one another. That's not gonna happen. You can see the other one. Yeah, no, it's over the shoulder. You can see them. You can see it. You're in the shop. Yeah. And the other thing that I didn't know until recently, was he just ran those three cameras. Yeah. And what you see is a soul as a whole take. It's one take. That's amazing. Take a love and apparently, yeah, take
11. Yep. In fact, just go back one second. Before we come back. Let's look at the man himself. There's Michael Mann, with them with our actors working it out talking about shot 11 coming up. Take 11 I'll go back because this is great. So here we are. And so we've met on the freeway, two smartest guys in the room, and they have this conversation. And it's really, I mean, in all intents and purposes, right? They're just filling each other out, can they glean anything from one another that they could use in the future because they're on a path to meet again, at that's this, this, this, this movie and their lives? And so I although I wrote a lot of the dialogue down, we're not going to do it verbatim, but we will focus on the certain things that bigger things. But you know, it's like, they start with a Vincent's kind of saying, you know, hey, he's kind of recap in his press, his being to near rapsi meals. And so we're learning, you know, like, wow, you were there for a while there. And you kind of feel him out. And I love his response. And I didn't know what a pathologist was, I had to look that I had to
look it up to the study of criminal law and punishment I like he's basically because he keeps naming all these prisons. And he's like, What do you study in prisons? That's their banter, though. It's which is great. It is. And in honestly, what it is, is it's Pacino, like, I know everything about you. And you know, De Niro's, like capital. Yeah, I already know this. Like, of course, you've done your homework, like, of course, you know, what do you why are we really here? You know, I'm saying, and it's fantastic. Because then, of course, you know, he asked him the real question, he's like, are you you know, are you looking to go back? Like, are you one of these guys that wants to go back to prison, because there
are those people and he says, There are crews, racialized, they're institutionalized. Like, I'm just gonna some cruise he's run into this or trying to go back, but then dinero scoffs at that,
you know, that that eventually leads like, he's not going back. I'll never go back. And, and I want you to give us a line that leads to his code, right? He has a criminal code, which he lives by,
yes. Well, before we get there, which I will, but I love that he's like, I do what I do best. I take scores, you do what you do best trying to stop guys like me. That's them. That's everything that's asking about, but I want to do that first, because we're going chronologically, and that sums these guys up. I'm the best at what I do. You're the best at what you do. Who's gonna win this? Right. Right. And before we go further, I got to ask you, Brian, who are you rooting for? In this in this movie? That's a great question.
Great question. I mean, I guess you're rooting for, you know, for Vincent Hanna a little bit, just because we've seen we,
I you're on the other side, because like we've seen his life
we've seen it's like it was life is garbage. And we will talk about that. But McCauley is you know, he, I mean, they killed four cops, you know, right off the bat. Now I know that. That wasn't the plane grow? No, it was not the plan. But but you know, there are three kinds, you know, and this goes into going back to the godfather to another connection. All four of these characters are dangerous men. They are dangerous men now even though Vincent Hannah and he betrayed his character.
He's the good side of the law. Yes,
he has. He has killed people. And these are decisions that they make. put other people's lives at risk. I mean, when we get to the bank robbery scene, not all of his crew, not all those cops make it out. Whether they're alive No, I'm saying like, those are decisions that he made. I'm not saying that he's responsible for the desperate like, death follows all four of these characters around. Yeah. And carnage of all types, whether it be just personal lives or whatever follows all of these characters.
Early on Michael Corleone, they're monsters. Now Vito loves his family and Miko does, too to a point. But they're mobsters. And that's part of the job.
And that's part of it. And then the other thing that all four of these characters have is a code, some kind of US Code that they live by, right. Yep. So go ahead. Let's get let's get back. Oh,
that's great. So real quick. Now they just kind of throw a little jabs and they're just trying to you know, they've never really sat down and
talks. Right, and barbecues and ballgames. Yeah. It's like, Hey, what
are you gonna have a regular life? Yeah. barbecues and ballgames. And he's like, yeah. Is that your life? And Neil's asking Vincent and Vincent goes on to really share what we just said, his life's a disaster. He's understood marriage, which is going down fast. He already knows it's over. He knows it's over. But he cares for a stepdaughter who's hung up on her dad who's just abandoned her. And he's dealing with that. And he is married to his job is what he is, he's married to his job. And then Neil drops this, his code on us. And he says, a guy once told me, Don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat, if you feel the heat coming around the corner. That's it, that became a movie. sound guy probably told him that in prison. He said, You know what, that's a way to do it. Maybe he'd had it because he's really bright. I'm sure there was a heist that were foiled with the wrong team. He thought that, you know, that's it, I'm building this thing. I know, I'm gonna do it this way. And he got all buttoned up. And now he's the guy that we know is Neil McCauley, and he's lived by that. And so those who haven't seen this movie, I highly recommend watching it many, many times. But in the movie, Brian, he does meet a lady which tests this code to some degree, but now we don't know how many ladies he's met in the past. But we know he's been a single guy. He's got a real simple life. And it's all about the score.
Yeah. And going back to what you were saying about, you know, who are you rooting for in the scene? Like, yeah, they both tell you what they're willing to give up to win. And it's the character that goes against their code that loses right like, a collie. Fine, finds a woman, right? And at the end, he chooses her. And then he at the very end, he chooses justice, he chooses to go get revenge on Ling grow. And that's the reason why he gets I mean, basically gotten killed. Yep. And he breaks his own code. And once he does that he's done while Pacino, literally, the Pacino character is in the hospital with his wife and his and his stepdaughter's choosing from a suicide. And he gets up in the leaves like, yeah,
he's saver, Natalie Portman, by the way he did. He did. He does say ever, but
he's gone. He's got it. Yeah, that's it. He's he leaves it all up. Yeah, yeah. He leaves. He gives it all up. And he's like, he's like, I have to catch this guy.
And oh, we're using lots of games here. I know. We're saying Darrell Pacino. I'm saying bill and Vincent and McAllen and Hannah, but they're all the same. There's only two people just
saying, yeah, when Hannah leaves that hospital, it just shows because it all comes from this scene, right? We're, we're told that these two will do whatever it takes. And the one character that does do whatever it takes when he when Hannah leaves when the Pacino character leaves that hospital, and it's like, good luck.
Because we okay, that's okay.
I mean, maybe like, you know, I'm saying, but we understand that he's gonna win like that. At that moment. De Niro's character, McCauley is doomed, right? Because they're two freight trains hating each other, and only one can say on the tracks.
So my answer to that question I asked you about who are you rooting for? As much as I respect Hannah? Vincent Hannah, played by Pacino, I have always rooted for De Niro as Neil McCauley. I, I don't know why he's finally found love. He knows what's important. I think he could prosper and have a good life. In fact, my goal is they don't intersect again. You know, let's do this as our great scene, and we miss each other. And we both go on and maybe Pacino gets the fourth marriage, right? Or maybe maybe they make it work because the daughter's suicide attempt brings them closer. You know that to me. I want that happy ending. But I've always side a little bit more with Neil, which every time I watch, I'm like, Oh man, if only this but it's one a one b But that's my choice. Totally. Totally. So then this conversation continues because they're still filling each other out. And you know that it's like Vincent's kind of shocked by what he's hearing like Wait 30 seconds, you're gone just like that. And nail it goes on to like say if you're chasing me how Do you expect to keep a marriage? Case in point? He doesn't do a good job of it. So Benson realizes that like, Yeah, I can't keep a marriage. But how do you do this? How do you have this 30 seconds of flat, you know, ideology, are you a monk? And then we learn or he shares. We know this, that he has a woman. And he tells him he's what Brian, which is a good
salesman, a salesman, always traveling pretty vague.
Right, what salesman? And in a lot of ways he is a salesman, con man. Yeah. But his sales totally. And then Vincent says, which is great. If you spot me coming around the corner, are you just gonna walk out on this woman and not say goodbye testing? His, you know, they're feeling each other out? Like, how serious is he with this code?
I'm gonna call it comes back with the gray line. That's the discipline, right? That's the discipline. And that's
it. Yeah. You believe like, Wow, man. He is getting close to her. But she's a goner, if tested. So we think played by Amy Brennaman Ed. And she's fantastic. She's really good in the movie as well, everybody. So yeah, I love that you said and they both kind of art neither don't know how to do anything else. That's all they want to do. It's all they can do want to do. And they're not getting out of their collective business. You do this, I do this. I love it. It's like these are the best around and cue Karate Kid song. But it's fantastic. It's like, wow, they're really playing chess with one another. And then it gets into something I know you talked about before we came on the dreams. And I also call this the nightmares. But please shed light on these dreams.
And I mean, this I think this is the biggest this is the this is who they really are. Right? This is what drives both of them. Vincent Hanna talks about how you know basically all the dead bodies that he finds are they're all kind of looking at him with these black eyes. And he calls them balloon people because they you know, he hasn't found them for weeks and they're bloated and and it's it's a very visual description of what is and basically he's facing these victims. And what's important about this is that he's talking about this is what drives me right like why is my personal life in shambles? It's because when I find these victims, I have to get them justice right. Now the hypocrisy in that the problem with that is that he lays waste to the rest of the people in his life. For these dead for these dead people, these victims, you know, there's a scene in the movie later when Wingrove turns out to kind of be like a serial killer. Where Yeah, that's a kind of an odd it's kind of an odd subplot. He kills us, like he's the Grim Reaper. Yeah, yeah, the Grim Reaper. That's right. And for some reason, Vinson Hanna shows up to the right onto the crime scene, and the mother of the prostitute is there and he like, hugs her and like he's delivers. Why? Yeah, exactly. And like, you know what he never does in the movie. He never does that with his stepdaughter. He never does that with his wife. You know, I'm saying like, so he has, he does have the ability for these emotions, but it's for strangers. Compassion, absolutely. The compassion. Exactly. And I love her meals. Like, what do they say? Yeah, it's like, they don't say anything? No, he's like, No, you just go no talk, you know, talk. I was like, no, they don't. Because they don't have to, you know, I'm saying like, their presence is talk enough. And then of course, you know, goes on with with his about drowning. And, and Vincent, just like, Do you know what that means? Because he's like, yeah, it means I'm running out of time.
I don't have having
enough time. Yep. And there's something too, you know, because these men are both very detail oriented. Earlier on in the movie. Neil gets a bad feeling about a score. And he's right. And they walk away. They just walk away from this score. And he's right, because yes, his defenses people are watching them. But yeah, it's all about timing, right? It's all about timing. And he knew the time wasn't right. So there's a lot of like, even at his scores, figuring out the right time and where things need to be, and everything needs to be in its proper place. And that's why he won't let people in, right? Because he feels that any of those people around him besides his crew, they're the water, right? They're the ones that are going to make him drown, and he doesn't have enough time. So I found it. I found it. Very interesting at it. I love that. You know, Vincent, the scene starts on Pacino. It starts on the dirty single Pacino. And he's the one that drives the conversation. Like he's the one that has marriages. He's the one that shares his dream first, and Neil is always like, Okay, you gave me there's a chess match, right? You gave what Neil's very
quiet like Vito Corleone. Niro's character is more reserved and Pacino can be who he can be. That's right. In both movies, and he definitely shines that he's got to lead the conversation, although there is no conversation. There's an aspect.
You're totally right new McCauley and We're calling on the younger version of themselves, their listeners, they're listening. They're men of action, right? But like, I mean, so much so a Vito Corleone that when his mother takes him to the local Don, who wants to have him killed, she literally says he never speaks anything. He never asked him when. But he's not dim witted. He's actually extraordinarily smart. He's knows to keep his mouth shut. Yeah, to listen and to look and to watch. And that's exactly how he rises, even in his own little friend group, like you will ever see him. The other guys are kind of movers and shakers, and he's just kind of like, but he's observing everything. And he knows how to take advantage of different things because he's smarter than everybody else. So Neil's the same way. He knows he's just gonna sit there and say, Okay, you gave me a little bit. I'll give you a little bit. Exactly.
I'll match you there. And I'll stop it right there. You'll share your dream, I'll share mine. And he'll go tit for tat because there's that mutual respect. And they've never met this guy before. They've never met this type of person never sat down and faced their equal, I would say, that's gone in for them. Both sides. Totally. It's just It's extraordinary is what it is. And again, it capable hands not even capable, extraordinary hands. And Michael Mann's Yes, not many directors could have pulled there are some, but not many could have pulled this off. And got a word and
yeah, and he was brilliant to you know, take 11 Like he was brilliant. Yes. To keep going. We're not We're not cutting. This is theater, right? Like this is these guys are gonna play they're in their characters and whatever, whatever they do, they they're gonna go with it, right? And then of course, this leads to the ultimatum of the scene. Right? Well, so
this is a bigger dialogue. We actually wrote it down. Since you have favorite Vincent and Eyford. Neil. Why don't you read Benson's next line? And I'll read kneeled
down. Yeah, we've we've learned as much as we're going to learn from each other. So Vincent, basically, you know, use those a gauntlet. If I'm there, and I got to put you away. I won't like it. But I'll tell you, if it's between you and some poor bastard whose wife's going to turn into a widow Brother, you are going down? Yeah,
I took some out, but to streamline it, but that's it. He's laid it down. If this happens, I'm not going to hold back and kneel response. You know, it's like, yeah, it's good. We're sitting down. And then he gets into it. There's a flip side of that coin. What if you do got me boxed in and I gotta put you down? Because no matter what, you will not get in my way. I will not hesitate. Not for a second. Not for a second. Not get a hold back. I like you, Brian. But listen, man, if you try to put me back in. I'm coming out gun. I love it.
And that's what it is. It's two freight trains on the same track heading right towards each other.
So then Vincent and Neil have a little parting of the ways in a sweet way. I would say keep going here. You'd be
maybe okay, maybe that's the way it'll be who or who knows.
And Neil says, are maybe we'll never see each other again. And they leave it at that and we don't even see them and we do we start up to win but you know, and we don't see them leaving great editing. We didn't waste any time and as much as I'd like to see a caveman ladies establishing shot. We don't need it. Let's just get right in. And let's not even see them leaving paying the check getting clumsy. I just want to see these guys here. And now so we go out and in the movie continues to do until the end scene when as you said earlier, De Niro is heading out of town meals. Goddess girl. He's got his plan voice. Motion. He's He's scot free. He's out. He's out of there. After the big shoot out downtown LA which we got to say that needs its own episode that shoot out in downtown LA. I mean, I don't know ever seen anything like that on film. I highly recommend just watching the movie just for that it's out of just the sound. The sound? Yeah, just put the sound on. So they're heading off. voice tells dinero Neil where Wayne grow is he's under Jamison at the marquee I think. And last second does a freeway. And then you know, is it in turn? Do we turn to his death? Do his demise? Yeah, there's time. And then he goes in to take care of business. Like you said, justice. This isn't his way. His way is let's not push it. I'm out of here. But Wayne grow cause a lot of problems along the way. And he likes to settle scores. I know that right? And so there's a morality that enters into our brain, right? Absolutely. You let us down and more ways than one and I'm coming after you. So he gets his guy pulls the fire alarm. These are great sequences. dinero is in play. Pacino gets the heads up heads over. He knows he just hears there's commotion and he's been spotted. Wang grow is dead has been killed. But essentially, Brian, Neil's coda is put to the test. He Here he comes running out what set the stage here? Panama? Yeah.
So they're basically yeah, he kind of Yeah, he comes running out of the hotel. He's about to get into the car with me. And then he looks he like looks to his right. And there's Pacino, like coming down the there's like fire trucks as he pulled that fire alarm. So like, the whole hotel is the hotel is exiting at all everyone the hotels exiting, there's all these fire trucks and you see Pacino just hustling towards him. And he looks at him and he just like, a and then he just like takes a few steps backwards. And she's like, we're looking for the fuck you go back. She gets out of the car.
Yeah, she's out of the car. Like,
like, like, by her but he doesn't know her and doesn't care about her. But that's it. That was that was his test. He Cali it could have went at him and shooting and cause more problems. But I was like, I'm out. I gotta go. And yeah, he ran off. And you know, it's kind of off of a runway at LAX.
Yeah, they're at the end of the Yeah, they ended up right get onto the runway, the end of the runway at LAX. And there's like some, like electrical buildings out there. In the in the beautiful light, the landing lights that come on when the when the plane comes in. And McCauley kind of sees how the mechanism works. And he's like, okay, when these lights come back on for the next flight, I'll be able to see where he is. And so he kind of hides behind one of these corners. And he knows, you know, he knows where Hannah is. Hannah doesn't know where McCauley is. And, you know, he talks in that in our big scene. Macaulay talks about like he won't waste a second he won't has a second. But that's exactly what he does. When he comes out from behind that building and the lights turn on his shadow is what gives them away like Vincent Hanna sees his shadow. The shadow knows exactly where he is. But he there is a hesitation like there's no reason for him to come around the corner like that. He could have just picked them off from the he could have just picked around and shot him. But he gives him that split second to give Vincent Hannah the time to turn and shoot and he doesn't even when he starts shooting I don't think even knows it's him. You know? I'm saying no, because he shoots once and then recognizes him and then he puts him down and then he fully puts them down.
Arrow said it earlier you get me boxed in. Well, he came out ready to gun to it dead or alive. You're now
totally totally. But it is interesting because I do feel like the McAllen character. There is a split beat that he he had the jump on the hammock. He did have the jump. Take it. He didn't take it. There. I guess day Brian
Kemp they both be wounded. And then they still just let each other now it is very true that he sees the shadow. He could have shot. He knew it was him. You're right, right. But Hannah didn't waste one iota bomba bone pushing down. Yeah, but that's not it for suspect with these two. There's a respect. And he goes over to a wounded kneel. And of course dinero Neil says, told you I've never gone back. And then what does Benson say? Yeah. And by the way, dinero is like bullet holes everywhere he's holding on and they hold hands. They hold hands for as long as an arrow is alive. And we hear an incredible song, one of my favorites back in the day by Moby God moving over the face of waters. I love this song. I met Moby once before which is pretty cool. But I saw him perform and and talk to him. But it was amazing. That was one thing that Michael Mann always got right from Miami Vice great cinematic shots yet with great music,
music and fashion. Yeah. And that's so much faster than this. But he was always good at that stuff in the cars. Yeah.
And so there's this respect, they hold hands. He passes. You're still seeing airplanes fly right over. And that's it. We're in black.
Out. That's it. And you know, I know we've talked about the correlation between the collie and the young Vito Corleone in both movies play by Janeiro, but there are some connections between Michael Corleone and, and Vincent Hanna Yeah, absolutely. The most obvious is that at the end of heat, his wives he is uh, he is there with dinero. But like, he's alone, like, that's it. He's told he's abandoned everything. He's completely alone. And Godfather two ends with an older Michael Corleone sitting in a chair completely isolated, completely alone. There's also of course, you know, but chinos performance and he has gotten it's kind of legendary with kind of the beginning of this almost you could say overacting the, the
Scent of a Woman.
Yes, the sense of a woman
type of a Chino it comes out in this movie. Sometimes
it's like, oh, did it comes it comes out now. Yeah. And here's the shocker. There's two moments in Godfather two that he does this. There's a moment when he confronts Frank Penton le in his childhood home. He's like, and he's talking about the assassination deputies like in my house, in my house. That's what when that is it is but you know, we people, but he's so subtle, but she knows so subtle as Michael Corleone that I feel like those get kind of overlooked because then again, at the end, when Kay tells him that she got an abortion that all of this must stop that this evil, she wasn't gonna bring another one of his sons into this world. And he's like, Yeah, you will not take my child. Sir. I mean, that's when you really see how evil Michael Corleone is. And there is, you know, because Vincent Hannah is not Michael Corleone like if it's a Hannah has a moral compass. Michael Corleone, while he says he does things for his family is just pure evil. But there is some of the acting, you could see there's little c s, from early Pacino that come into later Pacino and, you know, is yelling, screaming. Now, here's something that I just recently learned. Did you know that in heat, Vincent Hannah's character is supposed to be he's supposed to be a cokehead? Did you know this?
No, but I don't see find it too shocking, because I can see that element. Yeah. And he's going all the time. He's not wrestling.
But every time he Yeah, I feel it. Yes. And I feel like he did. I feel like him. At least not showing a little bit of that does a disservice to Pacino.
I think you could have. You could have
shoes he just gives you are like no wonder mind. You just fucking did a line of coke before he went into
the way he kicks his television out on the soul. Yeah. Because, yes, his wife was somebody trying to watch TV. I just figured he doesn't get a lot of sleep. He's probably drinking. He probably is hitting some stuff. I figured that's true. So I'm not shocked yet. But I wouldn't have mine to see.
I'm not sure I know. I would have liked. It would have been going.
Ah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But
I've watched the movie again, knowing that knowledge and I feel it just makes so many things make a little more sense.
Totally. And earlier, when you were saying Corleone or Corleone, either one. At the end, I did this dish that was Vito and the first one he passed. I thought you were going there for a second one. He just falls over and dies and the kids playing. But you were talking about Michael Corleone. Yeah, alone, for sure. Now, in this movie, Hannah's still has his team. That's his family are his detectives. So he has that. Right. And honestly, since we didn't get into it, you know, De Niro's character, Chris is injured and he's lost his other team. He's down to one guy and voids kind of like a helper, but not on the inside more like confident. And Cloud, another businessman, so he doesn't have a big team. He's shifting up giving up the team for the girl. And yeah, it'll never get old. But I always want a different outcome. I'm not gonna lie. Which leads me to this, this next thing, this little nugget that came on my radar last summer, and I was going to read it. I was thinking about doing an episode about it, but there is heat to a novel by Michael Mann's right? CO written and they're making a movie he there's some sort of movie in the works, but this book goes, it's like a prequel sequel. We get to know the characters better. And then we know heat. And then you'll get to know who's alive after the fact. I am fascinated, but I have not read the book yet. Brian, I don't know how you feel about it.
I haven't either. I love that the book came out. I haven't read it. I guess it's getting pretty good reviews. But I just love that it made Michael Mann like, do all this press for the book. Exactly. Yeah, he's talked about heat incessantly. And it's been great to like get you know, a little inside baseball with him.
Yeah, came out August 9 2022. I've heard him interviewed a few times you put one of his interviews on my radar. Yeah, it's like it's a it's 1995. It's he it's time to talk about it. All these reboots and things. And I'm not saying reboot it or make a sequel that's cheesy. You can do it the right way. It's either him or the right director. But some of these characters are alive. I mean, Val Kilmer is alive at the end of the movie. I mean, Pacino, of course, he's alive and he's still acting in real life. So I am fascinated to see what they could do you have void, unfortunately. I mean, I don't think De Niro made it. It didn't look very good with all the chest wounds. They can't bring him back. But, but just that is that's the connection that will stop it there because we could hypothesize about the future. But really, the joy of this was these two iconic movies, two legendary directors and two legendary actors kind of playing in the sandbox for us to break down and enjoy. And in fact, I'm very close and drawn to Los Angeles and a lot of movies over the years have not shown that LA but they cheat la I love that Michael Mann does it collateral He shot in Los Angeles, also a very up film. And he does that and he really gets into the, I mean, he's showing trains in LA when no one would even knew we had a subway system. I think that's right. That's true. But you know, it's like they he does that and some of the locations Brian, I've actually visited I mean, Bob's Big Boy in Burbank is where Donald Breeden they get their driver played by Dennis has ever handled the court. I went there many times and it's like, oh my god, I had no idea it was the one the same from he is so many locations, Caveman Lanius, which we've already discussed. And so I love that he did a great job of a lot of the homes even if it wasn't even that great of a home. The views. You see high views in a freeway flow. It has an element a character to it. Michael Mann is so good at that he really captures la beautifully. And so it makes it a carrot and I commend them and I just really enjoyed this ride and the fact that we got these two amazing actors together. Now I didn't put this in my notes, but they've since made other movies together. They have Yes, and I don't know if you're a fan of those. We don't have to get into it. But that did.
I mean Scorsese got them for the Irishman. Which i i read off yeah, I've I've re watched it. It's not It's it could use an editor but it's it definitely didn't last long. It is long. It hasn't moves. And
then there was That's the best. That's the best of them. Yeah, that's the best of them. Yeah, they
they have a lot of fun in there. I mean, I wish they'd made the movie 20 years earlier, but and then I think there's another one called Righteous Kill, which is I just killed it. And it goes through exactly what you were saying earlier about how great it is that the they're on opposite sides and they're playing with each other which really ups the stakes when they actually had the scene because unrighteous kill. I don't even know I think they're both cops on you. But they're just partners and they're just yeah, it can be any hacker it can be anybody and they're just there's no oddly enough they don't I mean, I've seen a little bit of it they don't even have any good chemistry like it's just like
I was like, Thank God they made heat
Yeah, totally right just kill was a paycheck it was a paycheck is what it was. Yeah,
the Irishman I really like I mean, Pacino plays Hoffa and the Irishman but it's really well told but again, it's years later it's like hey, cool. It's neat to see them in this at this stage but he was you know, it has all their games their game revisited and I can't sell it short Godfather Part Two, one of the greatest movies in the history of movies. So we were in good company today my friend I have to say is there anything else
I can wait to do as podcasts
only made Joy four months
well worth it.
So without further ado, please enjoy
the Godfather Part Two and heat.
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