Quiet Rebels® Podcast #119: Offering Less, Doing More with Hunter Niland Welling

10:11AM Jul 12, 2022

Speakers:

Mai-kee Tsang

Hunter Niland Welling

Keywords:

people

offers

clients

positioning

deliverable

strategic

voxer

business

strategy

created

charging

luxury

question

conversation

service providers

person

coaching

copywriters

shift

cruise ship

Okay Hello, one of our client rebels. So today's episode is one I've been really looking forward to. Because if you've ever felt that need to start your offers with more and more things in order to kind of feel okay with what you're charging at this episode that you want to listen to. So I've had this conversation in the DMS with none other than Hunter Niland. Welling, who is our wonderful guest today. And she's here to speak with us about how we can position less as more. So Hunter, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast and talking with us today.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

Awesome. All right. So before we get into all of the goods, like how do we kind of honor the fact that we have that compelling need to stuff and to kind of like really work through that to position less as more before we get into all of that goodness, I'd love to know how you actually started these conversations, because I know you lead a workshop on it as well. So how does it all come about in your own business and life?

Yeah, so this has been a thread that I feel like I've been kind of playing with throughout the life of my business. And for him for context. My background is in luxury marketing. Before I ever owned my own business, I worked for luxury consulting firm, luxury apparel companies doing marketing and business operations. And so playing in that space is often like the luxury space is often about editing, and doing less and curating. And doing such in a way that creates more value. So it's something I've thought about for a long time. But then when you fast forward to my business, and to my clients. It started coming up a lot because I was in coaching session after coaching session with clients who had wonderful offers that people weren't jumping on, like they should be. And when we really looked at it, it was the fact that they stuck to their offers so much that they actually wound up being too much for their prospective clients to consume to say an easy yes to it was confusing. And after just going through that conversation over and over and over again. I was like, Okay, we really we need to break this down and really, you know, take apart what's happening when we do this.

Oh, gosh, I can imagine how that must have been for you to kind of like oh, yeah, this is definitely Robin and I love what you said there about your clients like it's must be heartbreaking for you as a coach, right? To see that they have so much value to give that people just weren't seeing it in the way that they were delivering the offer on a plate to people. So I want to like just like take a moment to rewind back. You said luxury marketing. So I'd love to know the difference in your experience and your in your eyes what it means to be a luxury business or having a luxury offer versus the the non luxury version.

Yeah, so I love talking about this because obviously you and I know each other from the online business world but but my business background before I started my business while I did work for an online consultant, like most of the work I was doing was for offline business and and then in the early days of my business I did marketing for in person service providers and offline businesses. And so that's a lot of my my grounding and background. And that's important to note because what is considered like a luxury business or luxury price point is not tied to $1 amount, and it's not tied to a particular offer because that vary so wildly between industry When you're in the online business space, and high ticket can mean programs starting at $10,000. But you do something, you go talk to a professional home organizer, and ultra high ticket is I charge $100 An hour or, you know, $150 an hour is, is like a luxury price point. So it's not about the dollar, what it is, is luxury is when you are positioning yourself as the the go to auction, like the option in an industry. Like if you think of what the gold standard is, in whatever line of work you do, whatever product you create, you're setting yourself up as when people think of the idea of what's the best version of this, they think me if they could invest in any, any choice from my industry, they'd pick me, what's the most all inclusive, beautiful experience, like most branded experience, easy experience for your customers, whatever the price point is, or format that takes so when I talk about luxury, that can be a turn off for people who maybe only think of it in terms of like, Louis the time for some Yeah,

that was me. I was like, Ah, I mean, if I walk into a loop over time, I feel like wildly out of place. And so how would I even go about positioning myself as luxury if I feel genuinely uncomfortable to speak like that. So thank you for clarifying that. It's more of an experience than what you see wherever the price work, whether it's the price point or the type of branding, because when I think of luxury, I naturally just think of like, I don't know someone who just had like perfectly quaffed hair, you know, the super manicured nails wearing designer clothes. And so, thank you for kind of like just like, shattering that image like No, no, no, not necessarily. Yes, it could be. But that's not the premise of it.

Yeah, and you can be the luxury, you know, you can have a very luxurious brand that attracts a type of premium client who wants a really seamless high end experience, and be like the Barefoot hippie vibe. But and be like very punk rock and in your face, you know, like, it doesn't have to limit you to a personality or a style. But it does require that you think about your clients experience in a certain way that most people don't do. Because we're not just slapping the highest price tag on our industry and saying, Okay, now I'm now I'm a high end offer, because I'm the most expensive, you know, I'm the most luxurious, expensive, isn't luxurious, you know, they're not, they're not synonymous, they can go together, because luxurious can be worth an investment. But just because you're expensive doesn't automatically mean that you've created a beautiful experience for clients that you've eliminated friction that you've anticipated needs. So really being the go to like luxury option requires taking that extra step.

Okay, so I'm already starting to see this all come together. So something I remember actually sparked off one of our DM conversations was when you shared these stories on your Instagram about removing Voxer, which is typically one of the things that folks add to a VIP tear version of a program. For example, with the VIP tier, you get this amount of one on one access to me so so tell us more about that. Why? Why did you decide to take it out? And how did that actually position your offer in a way that was a lot more appealing to someone who signed up with you specifically for the reason that you remove that?

Right? Yeah, so this was in the context of my private coaching. So I have private coaching clients, and like you said, for years, the go to like, selling point, bonus feature, whatever has been this unlimited Voxer access messaged me whenever and I'll get back to you during my office hours. And, and so people use that. And like most things, I feel like it worked great until it didn't. I really loved that for a long time. And then I just hit an inflection point in my business where I didn't love showing up in that way anymore. I was feeling a lot of friction around it. I was always feeling behind anything that's worth mentioning, because I've talked to a lot of service providers lately who prove vide box or access who says always feel behind on the stack of messages, you know, waiting for them. And so that's where I found myself and I was like, This doesn't feel good. I don't want to be in a position where I'm constantly feeling behind indoor being behind and giving clients a subpar experience that doesn't match my definition of having this luxurious brand, which is important. So I need to pull it out. And I need to pull it out. And at the same time, I had been noticing that my best fit clients who got the best results during our time together, were the ones who kind of like popped in and shared updates, but weren't relying on me Voxer access to run things by me. And so I just kind of popped in and I was like, I need to make this change for me. And I can see that there could be a way that could benefit my clients for me to pull it out. So what I wound up doing is deciding no more Voxer accessible you get, you can draw messages for me to listen to just like right before a session of if it's like I killed an offer, or I lost 30 spots or there's some like update where you don't want to have to spend 15 minutes of your session just giving me a fresh view, you can do that. And I'll do it but I'm not checking in I'm not doing coaching in Voxer, I'm not, you know, responding to you, in general. Um, so I pulled it out. And as soon as I pulled it out, somebody enrolled in my coaching, based on like the new language, the new messaging, and they were like, This is so perfect, because I've been looking for a coach who would encourage me to trust myself. And by pulling out the box, or that's what I was doing, I was encouraging them to after our session after we've come up with the plan to just go take action. And they don't need me, you don't need to run everything by me, you don't need me to be your authority figure saying yes or no to your ideas. Like, I work with really competent, brilliant people who are totally capable of making those decisions themselves. So it's been a beautiful experience of now that I've been doing this for a number of months, watching how swiftly they're making progress. Because they get the idea and they take action instead of running it by me.

I can feel that just taking that out, created a shift. It's like yes, I'm sharing things with you. But I'm not asking for your permission, as my courage to make sure that this is okay for me to do is a very empowering thing. And you're really reducing the chances there to create a codependent relationship which can often occur in these relationships, whether it's with a coach or a mentor, because it for so long, it's felt like such a hierarchical sort of thing is like, Oh, they're, they're the I'm looking up to them because of what they got. But now what I'm hearing is that by doing this, you're fostering an environment where it's a co creative experience where you get to witness them. Yeah, yeah,

exactly, which is what my coaching has always been about. So um, the other thing that I want to tease out, since we're talking about positioning less is more maybe it would be helpful to talk about what positioning is because positioning a lot of airtime in the marketing and copywriting worlds especially. But I think that my lens of thinking about positioning is a little different than I've heard people typically define it. Because we're all always positioning, like if you're showing up in business, you're always putting yourself out there in a certain way. You're putting your offers out there in a certain way you're connecting dots for people, whether you're doing it intentionally or unintentionally. So I'd invite people to just decide that they're going to do it. Right, because you're doing it whether you want to be or not. And when I think about positioning, what I actually think about is framing what you're offering and what you're doing, so that your clients can, or your potential clients can clearly see how it's in their best interest. There's always an angle, there's always a way we're talking about things. There's, there's 182 ways that I could pick to describe my work to you today. And it doesn't mean that any of them are false, or you know, like not accurate, but some of them are more helpful. If I just go into it all about how I feel about my work and my perspective, then probably you might miss the opportunity to like, really fully grasp how it might relate to what you do or how it might fit into your world. So when I talk about positioning, I think it's important to know that that's what I'm talking about is framing things in a particular way, and particularly want to be framing that in a way where a client sees how it's in their best in So let me come back to the Voxer. The decision I specifically made when I pulled it out, was to position it as a tool for building self trust, for strengthening your own intuition and building your capacity to take action. And so I didn't just say, Hey, guys, I'm tired of doing boxer. I'm not a part of it. But I also then had to think through how does this benefit my people. And it benefits them in these ways. It genuinely does. It is a fuller part of the story that I had to teeth out. And I just want to highlight that because we're going to be talking about positioning less is more. And so in doing that, we have to get comfortable with framing our choices in business in a way that makes sense to the people purchasing from us.

Mm hmm. I love that. And as soon as you said that, oh, I think a bit differently. I'm like, Oh, Hello, we are the choir rebels. I mean, we, we do everything differently. Pretty much. So I absolutely love that. And the difference there that you didn't just say that, Oh, I like I don't like doing Voxer. So I'm just going to take out no, there was a much deeper reason that is mutual benefit to both you and the client that you're serving as well, which I love. So thank you for sharing your version of what it means to to position yourself in a certain way. So let's get into the meat and potatoes of today. And for anyone who is a vegetarian or vegan. The main dish I mean, normally when I see a vegetarian option for like a main meal is often stuffed portobello mushrooms for some reason, like I know that's like a huge fiction. You know what I mean? Okay, let's get into the main meat.

So I'm extra hard because daughter just became a vegetarian. And then number of portobello mushrooms.

I mean, I love I love stuffed portobello mushrooms. Anyhow, so positioning less as more. So the reason why I would, that I really felt compelled to bring you onto the podcast was for many reasons. And this one is because I know that when I had a VIP day offer and which I'm actually working on at the time of this recording now, thanks to you to bring a different version about. Anyway, I digress. I remember when a lot of my copywriter friends because I used to be a copywriter. So naturally I have a lot of connections in the copywriting world now. When they asked me how I managed to position my VIP day at five and a half grand for it was when I did a podcast getting VIP day for about five hours, that that was a big shebang. And we had a process etc, etc. And they said to me, how are you positioning it to this investment when that actually a very small, not small deliverable. But like there is a valuable deliverable. But that's not the key thing that they come to you for. And I asked, Well, what do you think you can do? And then they kept trying to come up with ideas like hat like deliverables, like list that like a mile long? And I'm like, that's a little bit overwhelming. And then they're like, but I don't know what else I can bring? I don't know what value I have like outside of these deliverables. And because copywriters you know, most of their value is perceived by their clients through the different polls they do and not the strategy per se. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this. For someone who's a service provider who's so used to delivering something literally on a platter, that's like an actual deliverable for their client, how can they be okay with not having that and still having the work they do to lead up to that point to be just as valuable, if not more?

Why agree? And we'll express the question. Okay. So first, I'm gonna take a moment and say, let's establish that. The first thing is, is you have to decide, do you have strategic strength? Are you doing strategy work with clients? Do you want to do strategy work? So let's just go ahead and do the baseline of not everybody does. And everybody joining us in this conversation is at this growth point where they're doing the deliverables. They're throwing in tons of free strategy, or maybe kind of build but as part of the deliverable process, and they really want to be able to sell the strategy by itself. And the reason I'm calling that distinction is answering the question how the first thing you have to decide is that the strategy is valuable. And not just that, I think you probably know from talking with copywriters most copywriters in particular know that like so All that strategy is essential, because you can have all the words, and all the nice marketing plans, and all the ads and all of the assets. And if your strategy is wonky, nothing works. So most of them already see the value. The second thing that service providers then have to realize, and this might sound simple, but I find that most people actually have to go through a process to get here, which is realizing not everybody has the strategic capacity to think in the way that you do. Not everybody does. And we have to call attention to that because meeting with somebody and designing strategy and creating a deliverable list, just strategic plan would not be valuable if every single person on staff at a company was capable of just sitting down and coming up with those ideas over lunch break, right, like they do all other. What service providers often miss is that because of the breadth of their experience, creating the deliverables, working with different teams, seeing behind the scenes, doing whatever they do, testing things out, gathering data from lots of clients, not just one, they have an immense strategic capacity that actually other people do not have, and cannot replicate. And especially if you're more like monos person, like stepping into that and owning it can be really hard. But that's the first step. That's what you have to start with.

Oh, gosh, I'm like grinning the entire time that you're speaking about this? Because I have I have been this person who's completely thought to myself, anyone can do this, you know. And then I did a podcast guesting workshop for a summit recently. And when I reverse engineered the process, and why so many people, they pitch too soon before they actually set their business up in a way that's ready to receive the visibility when they are showing up on someone's podcast and how it's going to lead to eventual people on your list and therefore, into your eventual offer. There were so many people were like, oh, gosh, I never thought about that. And so I thought to myself, Hmm, maybe I do have something that it's second nature for me to think about. But not, it's probably not the first instinct for many others. So we're making a huge assumption that our skills that we almost, I want to say dismiss, but we don't acknowledge the full extent of its value for it's just kind of sorta talking about no big deal. Yeah.

And, like I can, I can nerd out on these

topics, I can

teach, you know, like seven master classes audit, and I'm trying to rein it in so that we hit all of the high points we want. But where you said dismissed. What we bring to the table, I would say what really happens there is we don't even see what we bring to the table. And without going too deep into this part of that is because we are trained to think that effort is tied to value, that time, invested resources invested sweat, equity and rest, it creates value. And then what ends up happening is we take all of the things that are very second nature to us that we've put in the 10,000 20,000 hours becoming advanced experts at like with you on the podcast, like reverse engineering process that I could never come up with. I don't even know where to start thinking about that, because I don't have the data and the experience and the time spent reflecting. we dismiss it because it's so easy. There's so little friction, it's just the stuff that's hanging out in our brain anyway. So like, it's very difficult to value it. And if that's the space you find yourself in or anybody listening, what I want to invite you to think about is it makes sense that you think that way because we live in a capitalist society that traditionally like loves to pay labor by the hour or effort things like this where it is tied. But if effort was really what created or what showed experience, expertise, skill, then we shouldn't be paying our interns five times as much and the CEOs nothing because The interns are going to spend 10 times as long, they're going to work 10 times as hard, it's going to be 10 times as difficult. That's actually not an indication of experience, that's actually not an indication of expertise. If anything, the ease that you find in what you do the ease in the strategic work you do is an indication that you are at expert level. If you weren't at expert level, it wouldn't be easy.

Oh, I feel like that's a quotable right there for this episode is like, like ease is an indication of your expertise. So good. Love that. And there was some there was a visual that actually popped up as you were speaking earlier about when we use the example of copywriters, how they have such a huge breadth of knowledge, but because of the strategics side of their brains, it's kind of like embedded into their work. So it's almost not acknowledged, I thought of a train track. Strategy is like a train track, it needs to lead to where you want to go. So you can have the most beautifully like fleshed out train with the tutu part and like, you know, fine dining on board, you can have all of that. But if you have a shitty track, then it's it's not going anywhere. And then to mark this episode, because I just

actually, yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's exactly it. And, and so it's like, we just don't even have the perspective on our own strategic, the fact that we built all of that track, you know, everybody still told the track and everybody has all the track, but actually, on your clients, teams, like, you know, somebody is spending all their time figuring out how to build the train engine, and somebody is figuring out all the time how to navigate and somebody else is working on shipping and logistics. And none of those people have thought about the track, because they're physically being experts in their own way. And so getting that perspective that where there is ease, where you can see the way clearly, that is because you are an expert. So we have to start there to be able to step into this role. When you can fully embody that, that's when you're able to soothe a lot of the things that come up with over stuffing offers, I find that over stuffing offers often happens, because it feels very risky, and very unsettling, or can to fully own your strategic expertise, and interact with your clients as an equal and a strategic partner. Versus like an employee for hire. You're doing deliverable work, then your client is coming to you saying, I have the vision, I have the strategy, I need somebody to fill a role in like a very pre prescribed way, right. And when you do this more strategic role, it's actually stepping onto their level, and saying, I'm going to collaborate with you to create the way to create the vision. And that's a different embodied way of like entering into your client relationships.

Oh, that sounds so appealing that way, you know, it feels less hierarchical that way as well. It's so a while back, I just had to make this distinction for myself. I no longer I used to say to myself, I say out loud to other people. Oh, yeah, I look up to so and so. Right, as if they're higher than me. And don't get me wrong. I know, I have plenty to learn for people. But that was a huge shift that happened when I said no, I look to them. I know that they are further ahead than me. But we're on the same level. They're just further along the track.

Shift I'm going to be exploring that in my brain.

So many good quotables from

somebody lived this episode, please.

So when when we acknowledged that we are like the track matters, right? So to us that the things that we once undervalued underestimated that we actually bring to the table. What happens when we start communicating that into our office when we like, take the stuffing out and we just like kind of like, give give what it is? What if we get pushback from people who are so used to having deliverables, right? They're like, wait, but you used to do this and that for me. I mean, is this stuff valuable now because you know, I don't know what I'm getting. Like, how would you invite us to kind of like start navigating around those types of conversations. And especially if we have a repeat client, for example, who's who's been coming to us, for goodness knows how many times and we make a shift, it can feel uncomfortable for them like, Oh, I'm not getting what I used to, but you're charging at this price still, or an even higher price. What would you say to that, like how we navigate that handling client pushback,

I'm gonna go like spicy and controversial. And please do. So there's two things one, I'm going to share just kind of like an overall outlook on this and then to our positioning, our framing of it is going to come in. So like, let's, let's start actually, with the positioning of framing. One is you have to be willing to communicate your offer, and how it is in the best interest of the client. So with new clients, this is often easier, I like that you brought up the old clients, I should share this, I when I started my business, I was like, I grew up in poverty, I have had lots of low wage jobs. I started out I just wanted to get a start. And I had no context I had no friends like in real life, in the in the online business world. So I just had like no context for rates, and I grossly under charged. I have clients who initially hired me for like $30 an hour, you know, content, creation, copywriting, things like that, who went on to become like $3,000 a month strategy clients. And so I have evolved, you know them with me. And not all of them. I'm not all of them make that transition. But there have been plenty who do. And I owe that to what's always in is telling them what's in it for them. If you just come to a client, you say I no longer do have the deliverables, pay me twice as much for status. Don't care, me too, turns out gone. If you say, hey, you know how the last two times we created all these projects, and then you implemented them, and it didn't get the conversion rate that you wanted. And the outcomes wasn't the same, I've actually created this strategy offer to spot those problems ahead of time I created this strategy offers that we can make the ROI on all of the other work, we do together much more of a short thing, or so that you can prevent. So you can prevent hiccups on this point, this point from this point, you know, in or whatever that is, when I started switching to like fractional cmo work, instead of just, you know, like these little smaller projects and lower level, just content writing and things like that, it was a lot about, you're wasting a lot of money coordinating like five different contractors. And they're not all working according to the same strategy. And they're not all working according to the same brand vision. And things are getting piecemealed and it's making you exhausted, and it's lowering your ROI, hire me as your CMO at this new higher level, to be the strategy person so that we can maximize that we have to frame it in their best interest or they are just not going to listen. But the other part of that though, was for people who maybe are not past clients, or who are new to this, what's in it, I don't put my energy into convincing people that I'm worth it. I lay out the value. I put time and attention into investing to make sure I'm communicating that value in a way that speaks to my best clients, and in a way that they can understand. And if at the end of the day, somebody still does not find that valuable. I don't want them to hire me. Because they probably won't find it valuable even at the end. Or if they do it's going to be a slog of a process, you know, and so your energy would be much better served, shifting your focus away from how do I convince the people who want the deliverables that they need strategy to how can I get in the room with the people ready to buy strategy?

Yes, this is such a different energy about it anyway, it's like instead of chasing, you're kind of like standing firm. And like if they choose to turn around and come towards you because of what you're offering. Great, but you're not going to leave your stand and chase after them. Like say, if you had a lemonade stand, for example. It's like no, I am not in lemonade cart. Okay, I am not gonna wheel this around and follow you making sure you get the string. No, no, no, I'm gonna stay here. There are no wheels on the stand. You come to me if you want.

And that doesn't mean that we don't engage in conversation because somebody comes up to somebody stand and they have questions about it. Or they don't understand it. You know, they don't, they don't get it. We're explaining we're reworking. We're changing up our language and our messaging. We're answering their questions. It doesn't mean don't engage in dialogue with the person who goes oh, I'm used to getting this as a deliverable. Have the conversation. But if somebody says I don't see value in strategy, great, we don't try to sell ski boots to people who came into the shop asking where the flip flops are. So like, it's okay. Like they can just not be interested. And it's okay.

Yes. So I can imagine that for those who are listening to this right now, they may be in a position where they're not able to be as selective. So it's kind of like, well, that's nice for you to say, because you probably have a plethora of people who are lining up to work with you. But what about me when I'm like, not just floating above, like, keeping the head above water like that there's more than the head above the water. But having this shift could be a huge difference. And suddenly, because I have witnessed people firsthand, that when they shift their offers to like taking out the deliverables, and really owning their strategy, but suddenly the clients, they didn't stop coming, but it slowed down. Right. So I'm curious to hear your thoughts as well about the investment in itself, especially say, for example. Yeah, again, we're used to offering deliverables, but now we're just like owning the strategic part. How do we make sure that the investments that we are putting out there aren't too expensive that we're doing quote unquote, less now?

Huh? Okay. So, I love I love the ask this question. So how do we make sure it's not too expensive? This isn't my favorite things to talk about? Because I'm going to, I'm going to take us on a little bit of a journey, that's maybe no. Surprise. Okay, so I'm expensive is interesting, because how do we change our offers without making them too expensive. The number one thing that happens when people over stuff, their new premium, simplified offers, in this case, for the context of this conversation, we've been assuming that that's shifting from a deliverable based model, to say a strategic a consulting based model, right? overstuffing your offers is the number one way that you make them too expensive. Because every client has three limiting resources, every client has a limited amount of time, unlimited amount of energy, and a limited amount of money. Now, what the limits are on those things are gonna vary from person to person. But those are the parameters, everybody is making their investment decisions. And so when you switch and you want to start doing less deliverable work for more money, you're need to be speaking to clients who are ready to drop a lot of cash on your offers. And what those people almost always want to do is invest more cash to save time and energy. Right, if they wanted to spend the time and energy, they'd go invest in a course to learn how to do it themselves, or manage the process and you know, buy the template and implement it themselves or with their teams, or whatever it is, they don't want to do that. They want you to do it for them. So you have to save time and energy. So if you're getting the feedback that your offers are too expensive, the first thing I'd look at is, in what ways are your offers time and energy expensive? You may have to show up for a lot of calls, is the intake form taking them an hour and a half? And it's complicated or hard for them to pick up and leave off? You know, and come back? Do they have to get their team to a lot of meetings? Did you throw into courses as your bonus stack to prove that it's worth $5,000? And now they're thinking for them to really get their money's worth, they have to set aside time to take two courses. All of these things are an expenditure. Are you not communicating the fact that you have a clear process and a clear framework and that you're going to do the energetic heavy lifting, of knowing what needs to happen and when because if they think they're gonna have to figure that stuff out, they're calculating that into the investment, whether they know it or not. So, oftentimes, I find at least you know, like, in a lot of my coaching, I'm working with people who make these shifts. The pattern that I noticed is that that pushback is often directly tied to you have over stuff your offers overcomplicated it and they're not willing to spend the combination of time energy and money that you've put together.

Ah, this is so good at making so much sense. So what I'm hearing is if we are to chart if we are going to be charging our offers at a certain price point there needs to be a combination of high price but low energy and time expenditure for them. So So what I see all the time is, when it comes to I remember I had a friend who joined a mastermind, and she said the price point was high. And the commitment was incredibly high. Three calls a week, every week, I thought, oh my gosh, and she, she's a trailblazer type, creating platforms and all of the things and I can see why that didn't. That wasn't worth it for her. But if it was, that it was, if it was a different combination, where someone had less money, but more time than Yeah, that could be incredibly appealing. So um, what I'm hearing is that depending on the kind of price that we are charging, whether it's monetary price and adjusted price, or time price, I think was the last one, that it needs to be the right combination.

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And, yeah, I was just talking to somebody about a similar thing about a mastermind. And she was like, it's like I was taking on another full time job. And so yeah, so look there first, that's, that's where you have to do the cleanup first, and that, for that energetic piece, what when you're doing strategic work for somebody, a lot of what you're doing is mental, like putting in the mental energy taking, or like, taking away the mental energetic investment that somebody would have to put in, to know what you know, and to make the decisions you can make, and, you know, to foresee the problems that you can foresee. And so important there is to really have a clear sense that you can meet this, to have a framework, a methodology, something that you can tell them, Look, I know all of this is a big open question to you. And here's the way I'm going to answer all those questions without you having to go figure out what to ask, without you having to do a lot of homework, without you having to, like do all of this mental heavy lifting, to make sure you get your money's worth, that's what they really want to know, am I gonna get my money's worth. And if it's something they know nothing about. And they don't even like really know what they don't know. They need to be really confident that you can see those gaps for them, and fill it in for them. Make them money worth.

That, yep, I'm just thinking to myself, like the thing that I would invest a lot in is a tech person who because tech is the number one thing in my business, that saps the most capacity from me, both time and energetic, which two of those things are incredibly valuable to me. So anyone like I will pay top dollar for tech, if it means like, Oh, my God, you you just need to let me know. Like, they will ask me the question. And I just need to answer I don't need to figure out what kind of question to ask them because they already like, they already know what, what they want me to say to them, basically. Or they know what questions to ask me. And oh, gosh, that's just like, Ah, beautiful. Incredibly beautiful.

Remind me of this after I get off the call, because I have a couple of recommendations for you. Yeah, I absolutely we all have that thing. And, you know, even outside the online business world, it's like, um, I had a professional home organizing business for a little bit after college, I just like I needed a, I needed a fun thing to do for a while. And that's how I wound up working with a lot of professional organizers in my marketing business. But the interesting thing is like the difference between a professional organizer who gets paid $30 An hour and one who gets paid $100 plus an hour is a $30 an hour organizer shows up in your house, can I ask what you want done? Oh, you said and $100 homeowners walks into your house and says this is what needs to happen for you to have the house you want. And here's I'm going to do it this way. And you can feel that lift and then you can kind of apply that to whatever your industry is. People are not going to pay you top dollar for you to walk into their business say and say, Okay, what do you want done? That's not a top dollar role. It's a valuable role. It's a necessary role. We all need implementers and you know, people to get the projects finished. But that high level investment comes from you being able to walk in look around and say this is what needs doing. Oh, yeah.

I noticed a huge difference when I worked with someone who was my VA at first and then shifted to the OPM role. Oh gosh, so much so so much and I'm like yes, I will keep you at this level operating because I can can't go back. I can't get back now.

It's so so powerful. And, and so this comes back to the me like with the not convincing people. Because when you're working in strategic roles, particularly in like the b2b world where you're working with other, you know, businesses, you're, you're servicing other businesses, often what people are looking for, you know, the CEOs, the founders who are hiring in these places, they're tired of being the only ideas person at the top. They're tired of being the only strategic brain navigating and you know, doing all the risk analysis and doing all the cost benefit analysis. And they really just like, what they're looking for somebody who can step aside and take off some of that, having to have all the ideas.

Yes, I can relate.

we all we all need that pressure alleviated sometimes, right? Yes,

100%. And because I was in a position where when, when I wasn't the CEO, it was before I started my business, and I worked for someone. And at first I was the doer, I was the one who was in the trenches, doing all other things. And then my role evolved over time. And suddenly, I was the CEO as a right hand person, the one bouncing around ideas for him to say yes or no to or to want to explore. But he, yes, he was naturally the Ideator. So he was like, his, his ideas were like popcorn, like a popcorn machine. Like it was just like Papa, papa, papa box. And I used to just catch the ideas, but I started creating my own popcorn. And adding it to the mix, you know? Yeah. So as we start rounding off this conversation, I, there was a question that came up when I asked you, you know about the investment, is it? Is it too expensive? Now now that we're doing less? What about doing enough that actually warrants the price tag that we're putting on? And by price tag, I mean, monetary and majestic and time now? Because? Not from you, but the three different types of expenses? So, um, how would you? Yeah, just kind of like, recommend us to start navigating that part about how much is, is enough? And I know that's a huge, like, broad questions. So whatever floats your boat like comes to you.

And just when I'm, when I'm not saying so you're saying like how to make sure you're charging enough for it, or how to make sure you're doing

both. So let's take that as a two part question. charging enough, then doing enough so charging fast,

how to make sure you're charging enough. You do not want to make the mistake of under charging your premium offers, because your strategic offers, because this is not doing this is not implementation, what you need to think about the fact is, I love that we're just like I speak always in analogies. And so I always like to remember the analogy. So when you're doing strategic level work, and if we imagine, say, like you're on a, on a cruise ship, you're doing the work that actually like changes the direction in which the ship is navigating. It is changing the entire course. And it's going to have ripple effects on everything on the amount of fuel consumed and amount on the amount of profitability on how much fun the guests have, which dictates how much they talk to their friends about it, which dictates how many repeat customers you get that it ended up this one turn of the steering wheel is going to cascade and impact lots and lots and lots of smaller decisions, right? Because of that, it inherently, of course, has a higher price tack. Because the cost of not making a good decision up here at this high level is much more immense, right. And the opportunity for getting games from making the right shift up at that high level is immense. Now, the work that's happening elsewhere on the cruise ship, you know, the singer singing on the stage, the floors that are being resealed somewhere, you know, like all of this, like work that's happening is important and essential for the ship to keep running the day to day. But if the Handyman in the back doesn't reseal a particular section of floor, it is not going to have like cruise ship wide implications for the revenue and navigation for the next six months. Therefore, like we're compensating accordingly, right, compensated accordingly. So if you talk a price tag on that's too low. What you're telling that CEO who's sitting alone in the room, tired of being the only ideas person? Oh, this is just another implementer, who's going to ask me what to do. Because they're charging at the same rate that everybody else that I'm hiring to implement things to create deliverables is charging at, you need to charge in a way that tells them, I understand the potential ROI of this for you and the potential cost of not taking action. Does that make sense? And I know that's not a problem, or no, but so charging enough, you're not you need to factor in your time, need to factor in the fact that you might do research, you know, beforehand, or afterwards, you know, bait, not just the call with the client, all of those things. But just those things aren't going to come up with a price. Make sense? The price needs to tell the person in charge, I understand the implications of doing this. Wow, and what it can mean for you, so that they can take you seriously.

Yep, and I think the whole cruise ship analogy, because I learned best through analogies and metaphors. So I'm like, yeah, got a straightaway.

So in terms of doing enough, it's very related, you have to do enough to actually move the cruise ship in a meaningful way. You don't have to go buy them a new cruise ship, you don't have to rebuild the cruise ship from top to bottom. But if you told them that they need to move 10 degrees, you know, turn the room and turn the wheel 10 degrees in order to capture some meaningful change and meaningful results, then you need to give them everything they the strategic plan to fully be able to move 10 degrees or more. That's how you know you've done enough. So just like your pricing has to reflect that you understand the implications of your work, what it makes possible, what it prevents, the amount you do needs to be enough that they can get those games and not so much that you're trying to single handedly like go out and be the one person who steered the ship refinished all the floors repainted that created a new marketing campaign. And we're not trying to be the one woman show or men or whatever show running all of Carnival Cruise Line, not needed not wanted. But you actually have to like go up and spin the wheel. People don't want a higher high level strategy for then you to get there and be like, I think maybe that here's 12 potential ways. But if you wanted to, you could spin the wheel if you did a bunch of stuff before. And it was really wishy washy, vague thing where now the CEO has to go decide between 12 different ways to spin the wheel. That's helpful. That's not worth a high ticket investment. So like, what do they actually need to get the meaningful result? That's what you need to deliver them?

Oh, my gosh, I'm sure that everyone who's listening right now is there kind of reevaluating their offers, whether it was their price points, what's involved in the author, and all of the things and myself included, by the way. So we talked about a lot today about positioning less as more handling pushback, and we have plenty of beautiful analogies of a train track the lemonade stand. So for anyone who's listening right now, Hunter who's probably a little bit overwhelmed or unsure where to start, what would be your captain's orders, let's just say, to steer their own ship. This is just just to get started.

Yeah. So just to get started. I'm going to go to interest in sense of if you don't have a strategic offer already, and you're about to launch one, or you've already put one out there, and it needs kind of a tuna, right? Oh, since you don't have the strategic offer yet and you're going like, what's my next step? Start, like avoid having to go back and course correct from an overstuffed offer or misaligned offer or something your people don't want. And just look at your expertise. What do you wind up having to say to all of your clients, what do you wind? What problems? Do you wind up having to troubleshoot midway through all the projects? What are the trip ups that you see preventing people from getting the most ROI possible out of your deliverable based work? Look at that and just start writing down the notes so that you can come up with a really streamlined strategic offer. That's simply based on, you know, correcting roadmapping strategizing, what really needs to be strategizing. And what could be an easy sell to your existing audience and client base. So just kind of start brainstorming there. For the people who already have some strategic offers, and you're like, Ah, so many good ideas, I need to change everything No. What you really need to do is look at your offer, and go through every feature that's included, you know, every bonus, you give them every call, you give them every touch point and take question for all those pieces, just make a list on paper, in a Google Doc, whatever, and go through it and highlight the ones that they absolutely have to have to get the transformation to steer the ship that tend to create and see which ones you didn't have to highlight. And start there just so you can recognize everything that you didn't highlight is a time and energy expense that you've asked the client to invest. That isn't essential to them getting the ROI on their money. And not I'll give you a good jumping off point for where you can start tweaking and doing less. Positioning is more because you're going to pull these things out. And you're going to tell them why why is your VIP day, two hours, instead of six hours I've talked to there's a big market right now for people who say I'm burnt out on Zoom, I can't do this full day

VIP that that was me. That's why I took out the offer. And now I'm bringing back a 90 minute or up to two hour offer, which Oh, yeah, that's very doable. So yeah, for you to thank for that. So

that and it's not just service providers, though, who are burnt out on it, right? It's also clients. So as you pull out those extra calls the chop off the extra four hours. And you can actually say, when you work with me, I'm like the competition, I don't need you on Zoom for six hours. I only need you on Zoom for two hours to get to get as good or better result. So that's that positioning less as more. Yeah. So that's where I would recommend people start to start getting their bearings on what needs what needs to shift.

Oh, this is so much goodness, I'm so glad that we have a transcript as well as of course this wonderful interview. So, Hunter, thank you so much for all of your wisdom that you've bestowed upon us today. And for anyone who's thinking, oh, gosh, I need more of hunter in my life. How have I only just learned about her right now. And not sooner? Where can we go to connect with you for the first time or to continue connecting with you?

Yes. Oh, man. Well, thank you so much for having me for this conversation. It's really it's one of my favorite things to talk about. So I hang out on Instagram at the agent, she is the name of my business. And you will put that in.

No, no worries.

me on Instagram, come say hi, I hang out in my stories. I spend time in my DMs if you say hi and that you find me on this podcast, we'll really have a real conversation. And then if people will come to the agent she.com/rebels. How I said I could teach seven master classes. I could I have. I have a mini course that listeners can get for free called the ease equation. And it really spends time walking you through the time, energy and money resources and how to pull pair those down play with those so that you can make your business easy both for you to deliver on and easy for people to invest in. So I'll have a link for that for people to be able to grab that course for free.

Oh, awesome. So I made sure to put all the links in the show notes. So if you're listening, thinking, Oh, where'd I get all of this goodness? Again, I got you right in the show notes. So before I let you go to go about the rest of your day. I got two final questions for you. Are you ready?

I am so ready.

So as you know, this podcast is called the quiet rebels. So whenever I have a guest I'm always so curious to ask them. So what makes you a quiet rebel? Would you

love it? So I was like, I've been playing with that since you asked me Are you mentioned that question to me a while back and I was like that? I mean, the answer is is that everything I do I feel like is a bit rebellious and swimming down a different river but everybody else's, right. And I'm an introvert most of introverts and I'm not interested in causing a big scene in my rebellion. I'm just swimming down the other fork of the river and if people want to follow it, that's great. And so yeah, that's what it is. I think.

I love that because that's exactly how I describe it not not so much true and That water analogy but I literally think okay, for for those who you know are fine with the status quo call you do you right? Or for anyone who wants to explore this uncharted territory with me like, I may be having like, I'm maybe lighting the web, I've no clue what's out there, come along if you want to follow along if you want to, hey, we don't know what we're gonna find. So I love that when you said it was that you're the introverts of introverts. It's not about creating that big splash. So we're gonna go with that rich river analogy, right? It's like, no, okay, this is the main river. But I see that little tributary right here. And I just want to meander along that and just to see what else I can. And I love that. So thank you for sharing what makes you acquirable. And finally, I love asking this question for my guests as well. So thank you for letting me know you're okay with me to ask you this as well. Which is what is one weird fact or a fun story about you that no one else knows on the internet.

And I have been on the internet actively since the internet was the Wild West there's a lot of my life out there on the internet but think long and hard about what something nobody knows about me on the internet. I think one of the few things I can think of that nobody on the internet knows is that when I was a child I had pet goats and in fact you my biology homework one day and I did not tell my teacher that because I can't wait to go stay at my home where I took a zero loss.

Oh gosh. Yeah, cuz normally it's like, oh, the dog ate my whole time. No, I go I actually did.

All that I went no, we're just gonna let that story just stay.

Can I ask you like just a very quick side question. What was it like having pet goats? Because I've never met anyone who had pet goats before. What was it like?

Here are the best. Oh my gosh, I highly recommend for when they're cute. It's instant serotonin. And we would walk on a little leash if I wanted to take them on a little jaunt somewhere and so friendly. And and just comical. Yeah.

I love that. Well, thank you for so much for sharing that little fun back then. And to inspire anyone who needed a sign to say like, oh, yeah, I want to pet go and now I know that hunters have some awesome, I'm gonna go for it now then. Awesome. For All in all, it's been an absolute pleasure for you to be honest podcast today. And so thank you for again, bestowing your wisdom upon us. And for those of you who want to connect with Hunter again, I've got her all of the links, especially that ease equation mascot, I will I'm going to check it out for myself as well. So yeah, put that all in the show notes for you. And so, so appreciate you as a fellow human being fellow business owner and a friend as well. Thank you.

Thank you so much is my pleasure and I really appreciate your sharing your space they've created here it's a wonderful one.