technology alone can't solve the challenges nonprofits face. And that's why neon one provides software that empowers you to manage constituents all while giving you the resources and support you need to connect to what matters most your people and their passions. Learn more about how neon one is helping nonprofits create stronger connections by visiting neon one.com/we are for good. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Go back here without him.
I'll tell you what's happening. We're going back to Fort Wayne, Indiana for the third time on this podcast, nonprofit and innovative genius in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I am so delighted to have Sam Baker on the podcast today. She is an incredible digital strategist and founder of Sam Baker consulting. But you know, I gotta back it up and talk about how we met Sam. So we were introduced by our dear friend, Jeannie Barsoum, who's the founder of gifting brands, Sam and I both sit on her advisory board. And I'm sitting in this board meeting and I'm listening to this human talk about marketing, and about AV testing and about optimization and SEO. And I'm like, Who is this human? And how do we grab her and pull her into nonprofit and Sam's historically worked for for profit. And we're going to take those principles that have been working for little known brands that you and I all know and love, like Abercrombie and Fitch, Under Armour and Intercontinental Hotel Group, because she's worked with these clients to help increase their revenue was something called Conversion Rate Optimization. Some of you guys might know it as CRO and a B testing. And we need to apologize to our community that we've had 300 and something episodes and this is the first time we're talking about a B testing. I do not think this is a norm habit in nonprofit that it is something that we want to normalize because we don't know how our messages are hitting people. We don't know which one is the right one is this graphic is this message? What if we switched him up, we're going to teach you how to do that we're going to take the fear out of a b testing and we brought the Pro. So I just want to say that Sam has been in this business for 10 years. And she makes these little changes, looking at website data that makes more money without increasing digital ad spend or building a new website. So she is truly one of those people that is an extension of the marketing team. And she works with clients to help boost their profit and growth. She's an awesome human cannot wait for you to meet her. Sam. Welcome to We Are For Good podcast. So delighted you're here. What
an intro. I love it. And I remember when Jeanne said, Hey, Sam, you need to know Becky, because the nonprofit world needs to know about AP testing. And I completely agree. I think there are so many principles that we can pull in from the for profit world and that translate very nicely to the nonprofit world.
Preach it on. And I'll even just say for anyone who's coming in with that sort of fear in your chest, oh my gosh, I'm not a marketer. I'm not sure if I know how to do this. This is a conversation I'd say for the every man and every woman. These are simple little pivots and shifts that we can make. And they're going to make a huge difference. And we want you to know about this before giving Tuesday and year end. So before we dive into the topic, we want to dive into the human so we want to get to know you, Sam, like tell us a little bit about growing up in Fort Wayne and talk about what led you to this career that you have not right now today.
Yeah, thank you. As you mentioned, I'm from Fort Wayne, Indiana actually just recently moved back. I have a nine month old so
what's your baby's name?
Eleanor we call her Ellie.
Oh congratulations new mom.
Thank you. Thank you. We couldn't give up the support from our parents with child care moved back here just within the last couple of weeks. So it's still very new. I started out started my career at VR Bradley and eventually moved into a digital analytics role. Something I never thought that I would be doing. Math was never my thing growing up. But really, really got into identifying patterns and data and kind of geeked out on that. Eventually moved on to Abercrombie and Fitch that's where I started doing conversion or rate optimisation and AV testing. And from there, I just wanted to learn everything that I could about ABX testing. And I really found myself loving the psychological and sociological part of this analytics role that I had. So not only seeing, you know, whether a test won or lost, but also digging into the why behind it, what are my users thinking? What are they feeling what's driving them to make a decision on the website. And so that's why I've been in this in this industry for 10 years, because I just can't get enough of it. And everything changes so much. And I am continuing to just learn about website users every single day.
Oh, my gosh, I love this
story, human approach. And
I think I'm just like, you know, we're advocating for the nonprofit here, we're always going to push the envelope a little bit, too. We don't want Abercrombie to be the only one doing this. So they can sell more like shirts and Cologne? Or does they have a right? Just like me is giving me I love that we can take their playbook and apply it to something so like, deeply meaningful. And so let's start from scratch, though. I mean, AV testing get talked to us, like we're a kindergarten learning our ABCs. Like, what is this mean? And in practical terms, break it down?
Yeah, of course. Do you guys mind if I pick on your website a little bit?
Oh, my gosh, do it. For free?
This is really.
Okay, well, so I went to your website earlier today and kind of just took a little peek. And it won. I love it. It looks great. Shout out to your developer
way to go John. Developers, Josh, no. Thank you.
So one thing I love and notice right away is you have this great listen to the podcast call to action right away. And it's in this this different color from, you know, some of the other stuff on the site. It's this pinkish red color, love it. So I'm clicking on that. And I get to this other page with this beautiful image and lots of great information here as well. But on this page, my first kind of question is like, what is what should I be doing? What's the most important thing here, and I do have to scroll a little bit. And my guess here is that episode shownotes is probably where I'm going to find my place to listen to the podcast, which I assume is your, what we would call primary call to action, that's what you want us to do. But it gets a little hidden. It's not in that that pinkish, reddish color anymore. It's kind of it's what we call below the fold. So you have to scroll a little bit to get to it. If, if the main goal on this page is to get me to listen to a podcast episode, I would recommend elevating that call to action and making it that nice reddish pink just like you did on the homepage. And the way I would test to see if that worked. Would it be
for cheering? Yes,
I would, I'd split your all of your website traffic in half. So the first half would get what we call the control. And that's the experience, just how it is today. And then we would have our test group, which would see that elevated call to action in the new color, we would run that test for say, two to four weeks, and see if we can get more people to listen to podcast episodes when we change that. And if the answer is yes, we put that into production permanently. We say Hey, this is our new experience. We know it works better. If the answer is no, then we try something else.
Just got exposed in the most amazing way ever listeners, you'll see this on our website when this goes live. But I think this is the power of what you're saying about AV testing. I mean, this AV testing, it's like what action can we take for users to convince them to do something else based on that action. And I think that was just such a perfect illustration. And I think something that's staying with me that we discussed, the first time we met is you know, that people think to get these kind of results. You have to overhaul the entire site. And you don't this is really about making like a couple changes that just meet maybe enough so much more affordable. Thank you for diagnosing us. Yeah,
that's a great and I mean, that's something that you can do without a whole lot of, you know, resources or money. I know I don't want to jump ahead too much. But there are free tools that you can use to get started with this as well. So yeah, like you said, we we kind of tend to feel like we need to do the overhaul first and that's because we constantly see what everybody else is doing, and we're constantly comparing our websites with those websites. But the reality is they are not necessarily testing. So they don't know if those things works. Those sites work better than the original.
I mean, I think what I love that you expose this, like live on air today, is that so great, I think if you sat us down in a room, even as a team and say, What is the goal of somebody coming to this site? Like, I think we would all probably have five different answers to that, because it kind of depends on the day of the week, it's like, I want you to join the community, I want you to come to Pro I want you to listen to the podcast. And so I got to think the conversation could start with like, is this button is this call to action even aligned with what our goal is for this season? For this month, whatever? Today? Right? Exactly. This is something that's dynamic. I mean, we can change it throughout the course of the year as it syncs to different promotions, or whatever you're focusing on. Right,
right, exactly. I think that's a great place to start. You do want to make sure that everyone in your organization is aligned on what it is you're trying to do. Is it donations, is it engagement? Is it you know, maybe listening to a podcast isn't really isn't bringing in the community necessarily, that that join our community button is more important, that maybe needs to be elevated ahead of the listen to the podcast button, then. But yeah, you do have to start with that alignment.
Okay, so talk about AV testing, talk about the theory and the philosophy behind it. And I don't want you to have to go too deep. But why should nonprofits be exploring this? Why is this something they need to be diving into?
It's, it's exactly what we said about that, that drive to constantly be making changes. And we are in a world where everything changes so quickly, especially when it comes to technology, especially when it comes to your website. However, there is kind of a magic mix of of your website, that is going to work perfectly for you. And that's going to be very different from what somebody else's website is. So there's going to be the right story, there's going to be the right call to action, there's going to be the right navigation that encourages your users to do what you want them to do the best. And that's going to be different for every organization. And really, the only way to understand for sure what works best for you is to apply those analytical and statistical principles, to to your planning to really understand how to move people how to get them to do what you're wanting them to do.
So just kind of go in practical for a second, when you describe this scenario, that you're going to build out an option. How do you keep it in that production? before it goes production? How do you have these two simultaneous pages live? Just technically speaking, how does someone actually implement that strategy?
Yeah, so the first thing you need is a testing tool. And that's kind of where I think the Abercrombie is in the world, they have the budget, they have the resources to put a tool in place and really utilize it, what I think a lot of people don't realize is that there are free tools that you can use to get the same results that Abercrombie is using with their with their expensive tools. So Google Optimize is a free tool, it's within the Google stack. And you can implement that on any website. And you can run a test just as you would with kind of a more expensive tool. So that's really the first thing you need. And then some sort of developer who can help you implement that tool. And it's, it's a pretty basic function for a developer to go in and get that that snippet of code on the site to be able to start running your tests.
Awesome. I mean,
we love free tools. We love free access, especially for a nonprofit who might be a little hesitant to even try this out. But I think you're making the case really, really well because we've never seen a B testing not translate into significant more or ROI. And I say significant that can be objective in any way you want to define it. But a B testing is going to help you again, optimize what you're doing. And so I think one of the questions is kind of bouncing around in my head, is what opportunities are there, like for nonprofits to leverage the strategy, talk about some of the benefits and maybe even some of the common misconceptions?
Yeah, let's talk about something you all talk about often on the show and that storytelling and how soaring storytelling can really move your potential donors to, you know, to actually make that donation One way that I could see somebody really using AV testing in the nonprofit world would be to have your two or three stories and begin testing them. So maybe the homepage features. One story that is about somebody has, who has, you know, really received a benefit from the nonprofit organization. And then maybe on the other hand, you're trying, you're going to feature somebody who did donate and kind of their, the, how that moved them, and really got them involved with the organization and kind of test out those two things and see, you know, which one drives more donations on the site. And then I think where this becomes really powerful then is once you have a winner, that can translate outside of your website, and maybe you start using that story on print marketing, maybe you're verbally sharing that story with potential donors to get them to kind of pull the trigger and make the donation. Maybe you're sharing it on paid advertising, it can really stretch far past the website once you have those learnings.
Taking a quick pause from today's episode to thank our sponsor, who also happens to be one of our favorite companies Virtuous, you know, we believe everyone matters. And we've witnessed the greatest philanthropic movements happen when you both see and activate donors at every level. And Virtuous is the platform to help you do just that. It's so much more than a nonprofit CRM. Virtuous helps charities reimagine generosity through responsive fundraising, volunteer management, and online giving. And we love it because this approach builds trust and loyalty through personalized engagement. Sounds like Virtuous might be a fit for your organization, learn more today@virtuous.org, or follow the link in our show notes.
Okay, I mean, as people who've been in the nonprofit space for 20 plus years here, like we do this, when we're talking about a big capital campaign, like that's what your silent phase is for, it's like you're refining your messages, figuring out the case, kind of landing on things. So I love that this is kind of giving you the script to be able to dynamically do that all the time with incoming stories and incoming campaigns and all of that. So really prioritizing this in the strategy for your digital marketing team. Or if it's just, you know, one of the tools that your marketing team is trying to implement, I think is smart, because it seems like in the end, it's going to trickle down into all of your marketing collateral for print and everything else as well.
Yeah, you basically have access to a free sample of users. If you were running a survey, you would have to pay to get people to answer questions about some sort of campaign that you're running. When you're a B testing, you already have those users that you can kind of test your ideas out on.
So fascinating. It is so good. And I think you know, something you mentioned early on, is that you really value and are curious about the psychology of giving. And I have to say we are too and it's something that we really dive into. And it's something that I don't think the sector has put enough emphasis on. Because the neurosciences of why someone gives or why a maybe a major gift officer has to get the courage up to go ask for a major gift. The reason that we're trying to move somebody to action, understanding that is really going to help us be more successful. So talk about that connection between the psychology of giving an A B testing.
Yeah, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I have another example. Think about the idea of social proof. And how we can use something like social proof, which is showing somebody that other people are doing something good to kind of motivate them to make that same decision. And say you have a donate page, and you really are trying to get people to click that donate button. And instead of just saying here, donate $25 to our campaign, maybe it's five people in your city have donated in the past week, to let them know this is one legit. People are doing this people believe in this and you should too and I think FOMO can be used for good especially when you're doing something will come and convincing somebody to donate to a good cause or, or even if we're looking at like volunteering and maybe it's not even like revenue driven at that point. And you're really trying to get somebody to sign up to to donate their own time like telling them how many people in their area are also doing that letting them know they're not going to be the only one showing up for that event can be Maybe a powerful way to use this strategy.
Yeah, I feel like it's kind of like it's embracing one of the tools of understanding, we're now digitally building community. And we're building these movements, that it's just like the subtle thing. I mean, you've all we've all been on sites where it like, pops up that so and so just purchased this or so and so just added this to cart and you're like, I feel like I'm part of this, you know, in some small way. And I don't think it's necessarily just peer pressure. It's just like you everybody wants to be part of success and what's happening, you know, and so I can see that that could really play into it.
And I feel like I need to define FOMO because I am somebody who was like, 38 years old before I ever heard that phrase. And it's the fear of missing out. So for all you Gen Xers out there, that was a definition for you, for me to you, because I didn't know at one point.
So I mean, maybe walk us through some examples, because I think, you know, seeing is believing sometimes like what is it tangibly look like? What is one of your favorite examples of when you switch something and something really magical happened, or you learn something from that?
Yeah, I think one of my favorite, one of my favorite examples is kind of when you think something is going to turn go one way, and it doesn't. So it's almost like the blue is taking tests that really, really get me excited sometimes. And, and I've run a couple tests recently where we tried to give the user too much information upfront. So they basically have everything they need. On the homepage, you give them every piece of information. But then they're not. They feel like they know everything, and they don't feel like they have to keep moving. So say, instead of giving them your entire story on the homepage, you make them go to page number two, where there's a Donate button. So you're getting them, you're kind of inching them down the funnel. Recently, I've run a couple of tests where we did try to give them you know, information upfront, it didn't work. And we're seeing, we're talking like 10s of 1000s of dollars lost on something that seems so intuitive, and sometimes seems so intuitive just to just give everything right away. But if you do that, sometimes you're missing out on giving the user the chance to take that next action. And like I said, those are my favorites. Because, you know, you think you you think it's gonna go one way, maybe it doesn't. So the test itself was, we assumed that if we rolled over an image on, on what's called the category page or in ecommerce, and give them an alternate image, so you've seen it on websites where you roll over an image, and you can kind of see like the back of, of the shirts, when you do that rollover. What we found was that instead of people then going to the product detail page, where there's all that additional information that's great and helped you decide whether or not you want to make a purchase. They weren't doing that anymore, because they saw the front of the shirt, they saw the back of the shirt. That's all they felt like they needed. And so ultimately, they didn't go the far they didn't go all the way down the funnel to make the final purchase.
I love that example. And I will just say, you know, in my public relations days, like 100 years ago, every single time I would survey or do a focus group, and I thought I knew my audience, I thought I knew their habits, their behaviors, their insights, it would always humble me. And so if you're somebody that ever is going to pour into data, which I hope every single one of us are, this is a tool that we need in our toolbox. And I know that we I mentioned this kind of at the beginning, but we're about to get into the most frenetic chaotic season of giving for nonprofits, which is year end. And it really kicks off with a lot of organizations on Giving Tuesday. And we're so excited because we're starting to see people in our community who have never embraced digital marketing marketing before. Try some stuff, whether that's ads, whether that could be a be testing. And so I think it would be really helpful. You know, for those that are jiving with this conversation and want to get activated, walk us through some of the tools and resources we need to jumpstart one of those impactful ABX testing programs that might be able to link to one of these campaigns at year end,
right. And I do want to say it's not too late to impact Giving Tuesday either like you can run some tests now. That'll get your your site, make your site basically a donation machine. And that can be done in a couple a couple of tests even. And really what you need is like I said that testing tool, there are free tools, sign up for one of those. You need a you'll likely need a designer and that can potentially just be one to two hours of work from a designer to make sure that whatever optimization you want to launch really looks like it fits with your site. The third thing is a developer who either has done something like this before, or is kind of one of those savvy developers who can who like has that drive to learn something new all the time. It's really not a tough thing for developers to learn. But it is sometimes new. So you want to make sure that they're willing and excited to learn about AV testing.
I mean, so give us like, even the next step, like how do you activate the developer? Because I know there's probably people listening? Oh, my gosh,
where do I find a developer? Yeah, where do I go? And PS, there's a ton of designers, nonprofit designers in the we're for good community and all over the place. So if you need somebody, there's already people here, come into our community, We Are For Good community.com. Throw that question out. We'll tag a couple of people. But yeah, talk to us about the developer. Because I don't know if somebody needs to go to Upwork for something like yet, or where would you find somebody?
Yeah, I think if you're, you're going straight to Upwork, I think that's a great place to start just making sure that you are talking about needing someone with experience with Google Optimize, specifically. And so let's say and depending on what your website platform is, that's another thing they'll want to know. So Google Optimize, but experience with Shopify or experience with WordPress, whatever your site is sitting on, it's going to be really important that they one no have put the Google optimized code on a site before. And they have some basic experience, launching a B tests. And I think if you're starting quickly, with a developer that you've found on Upwork, the key is to be as strategic as possible, make sure they really understand not just what you want that test to look like, but what your goal is at the end, like we want more people to click this donate button. At the end of this test, we're splitting 5050, so that we can understand how we're impacting that specific action.
That makes so much sense. And I gotta get like, specifically tactical here, and I'd love to get your counsel. I mean, when you think about a nonprofit budget for something like this, like where, how could somebody budget for this? What would be a good range for your designer and your developer to even just start a test of something like this?
Yeah, I think that when I'm looking at designers and developers, the question I'm asking is, how much do I want a developer to be running this project on their own versus me giving them very specific detailed information, if you want somebody who is going to run the project on their own, you're probably going to be looking at 2530 $40 an hour, at least at a minimum, there are definitely places on Upwork, where you can have somebody who's just executing. And if you give them very specific information, you can find them for between 10 and $20 an hour, it really just depends kind of on what you're looking for. I highly recommend doing some interviews before you pick somebody, like ask them questions like, when was the last time you help somebody run an ad test? an AB test in the past? How did it go? How what how involved were you? What parts of it were you managing, and don't feel like you have to go with the first person who reaches out to you, because there's just so much talent out there that I believe that everyone can find the right person they need, it just might take a few interviews.
Okay, that's super helpful. And I think I see a through line of this conversation, because I'm going back to that red button on our site that needs to be analyzed as like, a goal. You know, like, as you engage somebody, you it's really important that you're clearly aligned on that, because, you know, we champion the growth mindset around here, which means anything is possible. Like if we put that target up there, if we have the goal that's really clear, like we can get to that we can surround ourselves with people, obviously, in some cases, it can be really affordable, potentially even to implement some of these things. But you got to surround yourself with those type of people in the mindset that this can get better, like my web conversion rate can get better, which I think is really encouraging. So this has been so helpful.
Good. I think, you know, something that you lifted at the very beginning was just how much you value and appreciate storytelling and through this process, and we love to ask all of our guests about a moment of philanthropy that has really stuck and stayed with them in their lifetime. Do you have one that you would be willing to share with us today?
Yes, yeah. When I was in my early 20s, I was a part of the Fort Wayne Junior League, and we had the women's independence project. And I think what I loved about being part of that, well, let me give a background on what that was. We were teaching women The how to interview how to write their resumes how to really elevate themselves into the corporate world. And sometimes these women had had no experience, or a nobody to really teach them how to how to get land their first job. What I really loved about it was that it was so hands on, and I really got to see how I was impacting someone by teaching them things that kind of came naturally to me, and that I was really excited about. And then when I think when they, when they would ask me questions, and let me let me elaborate and like really kind of treated me as an expert. That's when I realized that the nonprofit world really needs people who can take what they already love to do, and translate it to doing good. And they Becky, you and I talked about that on one of our calls in the past is just like, their people are doing good in the world all over the place. They may not have translated it yet. But I think like that really falls into what we're talking about today I'm working with for profit companies on AV testing. But there's such an opportunity to pull this into the nonprofit world. And it's really giving me a chance to take something I love and talk to you all about it and hopefully help somebody else get started
preach. I mean, it speaks to this whole idea that we don't want just to grow donors in our process, but we're looking for believers, because you as a believer, I think of like gifting brands, it's like you're gonna open up your talent and your connections to fuel that mission, which is worth more than probably any gift you could make. Just off its own. So I think what a cool story, and that's something all of us could reflect on of like how we could plug in. So okay, as we wind down, Sam, we're going to have IQ not pick an A and a B, you have to pick one good thing to land on. This is gonna be a mindset writing for a dad joke and holding jokes, we cut them all out because only the good jokes stayed in the episode, we cut all the bad ones out. So we want to ask you, what's your one good thing, this could be a secret to your success, a life hack a mantra.
My one good thing is always be curious. As long as you continue to be curious and ask questions, there will always be something for you to test. And that means there will always be wins ahead of you,
Sam just threw in the growth mindset. Good thing right there. Always be learning. Always be curious. I love that. Okay, so I know there's going to be a lot of people listening to this that are gonna say, How can I get Sam to come in and look at my website and tell me how I need to optimize. So tell us how people can connect with you where you like to hang out on socials,
I love to hang out on LinkedIn. So please, please find me on LinkedIn. Connect with me. And send me a message to let let me know that you heard the podcast, I'm happy to chat and help you learn about calls to action, and make your website better. And see how see how I can translate some of this great knowledge to the nonprofit world.
Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. If I've learned anything from visiting with you a couple times, it's that there is such an ROI on testing. You know, you're gonna make money if you invest in it. And the more traffic that a website gets, the more you can do with it. And so if you're someone that's just saying, I'm not sure if my website is primed for testing, Sam can come in and do a user experience audit, you can get a baseline of where the audience is telling you and what's testing so go check it out. Go check out Sam and Thank you my friend for giving us the explain it like I'm five ABX testing download course because this was good.
Thank you so much for having me. This has been so fun. And I wish there were more dad jokes.
People want more dad jokes. They've spoken.
This is hugely honor. Thank you so much, Sam. Good to see Sam
take care of that debut. Take care.
Thank you so much.
Hey, friends. Thanks so much for being here. Did you know we create a landing page for each podcast episode with helpful links, freebies and even shareable graphics. Be sure to check it out at the link in this episode's description. You probably hear it in our voices but we love connecting you with the most innovative people to help you achieve more for your mission than ever before. We'd love for you to join our good community it's free and you can think of it is the after party to each podcast episode. You can sign up today at we are for good.com backslash Hello. One more thing If you loved what you heard today, would you mind leaving us a podcast rating and review? It means the world to us and your support helps more people find our community. Thanks friends. I'm our producer Julie confer and our theme song is Sunray by Remy Borsboom.
