you very much. I'd like to start by making an assertion that as a business owner, we don't always know what the other person what our clients value as much as we think we do, and that we often conflate what we perceive as value and project it onto our clients, and then we communicate through our own value set or what we think is valuable about our service, and in doing so, we end up answering questions that Were never asked, and we come across unintentionally as salesy, and we think we're listening and we're not, we are coming across as tone deaf. And I would even assert that the longer that you've been in business, the more vulnerable that we come. Um, to projecting our own values onto clients like I'll give an example from from myself. Here is, I always prize sales and marketing as being the most, you know, some of the most valuable education that you can get, and the most sort of important thing in a business, or certainly one, you know, the kind of it's the driver of getting a good business working. And forget that that's not what other people are finding would be value. Would be valuable from working with us, right? Our our clients are architects, practices. They're dealing, you know, dealing with overwhelm, dealing with low profits, or dealing with transition, or something, something like that. And there's a whole world of pains and problems that come with that that might not be necessarily people are not realizing that it's to do with sales and marketing, what to do with sales and so to come from a perspective of shouting about how great sales is without visiting the problems or the pains that somebody is dealing with today, now, where the fire is, there's a bit of a mismatch. There can be a bit of a mismatch. So Ryan Well said, so as architects, we do this as well. And there's the common dictum that we hear all over the world of we've got to learn how to communicate our value better. And yes, that is true, but we also need to understand first, or a big part of communicating our value better is understanding, number one, what is valuable to the person who was going to pay us money. Okay, that's the first thing, and and that there are different stakeholders in architecture, which makes it a wonderful, rich, lovely topic. Okay, you've got the end user, the end user, the end user and the person who's paying the money are not always the same person. There are civic users of a building who just experience the architecture as a result of proximity or through walking in the city or being near it. And architects are often very good at kind of establishing or giving a voice to those third party users, if you like. And that can be very empowering, and it's kind of part of the magic of architecture with that kind of stuff. And then we can, we can project what we think are is really valuable about our service, like sustainability, or it's going to stop loads of problems happening on site. Okay, great, that's all correct. It's just not a problem that somebody who's looking for an architect or is designing something is typically dealing with right now. It's not what's keeping them up at night. And the same thing is true for money. So we can often worry about our clients having the same concerns about money that we do, and then we project our money concerns or where we think is value, ie, that's cheaper than that. You know, we can do it for cheaper. We project that onto a client because we're we're imagining that they are price sensitive too, okay? And believe it or not, there are some clients who are not price sensitive, or they actually want quality and they want to pay more. And I'll tell a little story about this, wanting to pay more today. So my wife and I, we've been designing our our apartment here in New York, and we've done we've had some amazing designers work on it. We've had an amazing lighting designer, Francesca, and site studio, they've been doing some really beautiful stuff, and we're getting all the lighting wired up at the moment, and I've done a little bit of the wiring myself, and now my expertise is running out, and so we've been looking to hire an electrician, and we've gone through. This is the third electrician. I don't know if I'm that bad of a client, but it seems to be quite difficult to get somebody to come in. And it's a small job for a lot of electricians, and we, you know, it's fiddly, etc, etc, but we've, we've worked very closely with with Francesca and her team, and we, we'd selected, you know, certain lighting fixtures that are not cheap, but they satisfy our architectural sensibilities, And it was really important that we had those lighting fixtures because of the quality of the light and the distribution, and we thought they were beautiful and all that sort of stuff. And that was the very much the focus of what what we wanted. We had an electrician come in, and he was looking for all of the fixtures, and he made an. Assumption that I was looking to, that I might have been looking to save money. And then proceeded to give me a sales pitch about how we could replace the lights, and with this, with a with, with a kind of just led strips that you get off a roll, and we could stick them inside of aluminum casing, and we could kind of make the lighting structure ourself. And I know that we could do that. And, and he was very proud of, like, you could save, you know, we could save $1,000 you could send these back, and then we could put more lights in here, here, here. And it was a whole sales pitch that was based on, you know, what he was viewing as, valuable. And was coming from the perspective of, like, we can save you, we can save you some serious money here. And it was like, they won't be the cheapest ones, but, but he didn't ask any questions about where, the what, what the decision making process had been about the lights that were that we'd already purchased. And I thought it was really interesting, because afterwards, I just politely said, No, we're not interested. We're quite happy with the selections that we've made, and we spent some time doing it. But it was interesting how the assumption was that I was looking to save money, or we were looking to do it cheaper. And I'm sure that loads of his clients were and yes, there have definitely been parts of this job that we've wanted to do cheaper, and to have gone have done very long winded things, to to save money on certain things and add materials delivered from other places and all sorts of all sorts of stuff. But it was, it was interesting, and it got me thinking about how often we do that in architecture practices, where we're just assuming that the client wants something cheap, or we set up our conversations with the client, which then allows the conversation to be price focused, because we're not really asking any questions. We're not finding pain, we're not establishing what their values are for the project. We don't know what the emotional drivers are for the project. We're nervous about bringing up a conversation of money. We're frightened or nervous or unskilled, perhaps in being able to talk about what a budget is. We get defensive and angry if a prospect comes into our architectural studio, and one of the first questions they ask is, how much it's going to cost. How many times have I heard architects say, you know, one of the disqualifiers of a client is if they come to us and they say, How much is it going to cost, I know that they're not the right client for me, and you're like, hold on a minute, like a billionaire would ask how much it's going to cost. It's a perfectly reasonable question. Your sales process just sucks, and you've allowed that question to come up, and you don't know how to deal with it. Okay? And so now you're getting all flustered, and it's pissing you off, and now it goes into this automatic they don't understand the value of architectural services, and we get all stressed out by it and etc, etc. So that was one story that I thought was, you know, a kind of subtle, subtle thing and interesting how somebody was trying to sell me something that had asked me any questions about what, what I wanted, what I needed. It was annoying. The experience was annoying. And also missed, missed some really good stuff, because he asked me some questions about the lights. Then there could have been, he could have got some more money out of me, for sure, if he'd asked the right questions, if he'd kind of was, if he's if he told me that there are different transformers that we should be using that would get a better performance out of these lights, because we put, we've made an investment into them, or he'd taken that, that tact, and there was some genuineness in what he was suggesting, I would have been very open to spending more money or investing into the that kind of caliber of kit, because it was really important for us. Yeah, yeah.