Hi friends, I'm Tim vegans from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. And you are listening to think inclusive, our podcast that brings you conversations about inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world.
Arthur Aston is a resident of New Jersey. He was born with a birth defect called Spina Bifida in 1981. This diagnosis has impacted his mobility and requires Arthur to use leg braces and crutches. He also uses a wheelchair at times. Being a lifelong self advocate. In his adult years, Arthur began advocating for others, and developed a passion and mission for changing the way society as a whole sees those who have disabilities. Arthur is a content producer for the New Jersey Coalition for Inclusive Education, where he is the host of the inclusion Think Tank podcast for the last 10 years. He has also worked as executive director of build Jake's place a nonprofit that creates inclusive playgrounds, and manages the Camden County New Jersey miracle League, an inclusive baseball league for children and adults who have disabilities. In this episode, Arthur shares his personal journey of living a spinal bifida and how it led him to become an advocate for Inclusive Education. He discusses the importance of inclusive education and the need for students with and without disabilities to learn together, or there also highlights the work of and JCI EA in providing professional development and consulting services to promote inclusive education in schools. This week's episode is brought to you by MCIE is inclusion stories are a five part podcast series that tells the stories of families, educators and school systems on their journey to full and authentic inclusive education for each and every learner. All five parts of inclusion stories will be available on Friday, December 22 2023. Follow or subscribe on your favorite podcast player. After a short break my interview with Arthur Astin, and for free time this week, we are going to Arkansas to learn about the all in initiative.
Arthur asks, and welcome to the thinking clue podcast.
Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here.
I'm excited, we haven't really had a chance to talk. And it's, you know, you work for an organization, the New Jersey Coalition for inclusive education. And, you know, our work is very similar, although I don't know a ton about what you do. So I'm excited to learn that and I'm excited to learn about you and you know, what you bring to the role as a as a podcaster?
Yes, yes. I'm excited to share a little bit about my story. And, you know, and have this great conversation.
Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's just start off at the, you know, well, wherever you want to start off, I guess, why don't we start with what brought you to the work at NJ ca.
So, um, that begins a long time ago, although I didn't know it at the time. I was born with Spina Bifida. So I had a hole in my back when I was born. It has impacted by mobility. So I walk with leg braces and crutches for short distances. I also use a wheelchair for longer distances. And also, for instance, I was at a golf tournament yesterday, so it's more comfortable for me to sit in my wheelchair versus you know, a regular chair. So I will use my wheelchair for those types of things. And then 2010 I was a full grown adult at that time, but I ended up having a conversation with my then nine year old nephew, where I found out that he was quite hurt and offended that his classmates when I picked him up from school, his classmates were staring at me and kind of laughing and that kind of thing. So then I was like, well, it doesn't bother me, you know, not saying it shouldn't bother you, but just go back and tell them who I am. Tell them. You know what I do who I am and that we do a whole bunch of things we travel and all of that. So I and that moment, I had like an aha moment, as they say, where I wanted to start doing something to help change the way that people see those who have disabilities. So I started speaking in schools and just sharing my story with the students and helping them realize that it's okay to be different. And, you know, to ask questions, and to learn about those who are different than you, whether it's a disability or some other difference that someone may have. And then that work led me into another nonprofit were called Build Jake's place where we build inclusive playgrounds. So I've been working with them for a little over 10 years now. And then, in the summer of 2021, I became an employee with njca II. And it's, it's so interesting how my life just, you know, led to all of these different great experiences where I get to work with others who have disabilities, people who are like myself, and again, just working on my original goal, and my original passion of changing the tone of conversation around disabilities. So be connected with NJ CIE has been, you know, really great experience for me so far, in just the two years that I've been there just about hosting the podcast for them. And, you know, I'm learning a lot myself about inclusive education. And yeah, it's just a really great experience that I've that I've been having so far, looking forward to, what is to come?
So what was your experience like in school? Because you said you were born with spinal bit of spinal bifida. So was your school experience, different difficult, just fine, or I,
I was always in the, the general education setting. I was never in a separate classroom from my peers. And it helped for me, I can say, looking back now, as a 40, almost 42 year old. I can say now that going to a very small elementary school helped out a lot and allowed us to have those conversations with, you know, with my classmates, and I grew up in the 80s. And they had a puppet show, actually, that was called New Kids on the Block. Yes, after that great boyband. Where they brought the puppet show, I remember this, they brought the puppet show to my school to explain disabilities. And so that started a great conversation because it brought it down to you know, our level as elementary school kids. I was in kindergarten or first grade when they they brought this in. And, you know, again, it just opened up that conversation and allowed me to meet some great people and have conversations with them. And again, at almost 42 years old, I'd still have some of those same friends. So growing up in a small setting helped in that aspect. And then growing up in middle school. There was a concern with because I used the crutches, there was a concern going to a public school that had, you know, over 1000 Kids, so my parents did send me to a private school for Seventh, Seventh and eighth grade. But I have an older sister who went to the public school in our neighborhood, and I was like, wait, I want to go there. Yeah. So so that's when I actually got my first wheelchair because they said it would be safer for me and not, you know, not to get bumped around by all the students that not saying they would do it on purpose. But, you know, things happen, there's a tile floor or something could be wet, or paper or pen could be on the floor. And I would easily fall. So ninth grade, I started at the public high school there and you know, again, met new friends and still friends with those people today. So I had a really good education, you know, experience, I would say and, of course, it didn't come without its challenges and just my own challenges. I still can't I still can't figure out if it's because of my because of my disability or I just don't like math. You know, could be one or the other. So, you know, math is just something that was difficult for me and there are there were some some studies done about, you know, being able to do those types of tasks and having this disability like spina bifida and how it could be impacted. You on things like math and cognitive function and things like that. But again, it's just something that I just didn't understand. It was never was never an excuse that I use, like, oh, I can't do it because I have spinal bifida. Although I might have tried, but this wasn't flying with my parents or, or the teachers. You know, so so like, I guess, with every student, you know, having different challenges or different subjects that they don't care for some they like more than others. I you know, but I had a really good experience education wise, and the teachers I remember, you know, I can remember certain teachers that were really helpful and wanted to wanted me to succeed like everybody else, and really worked with me through different challenges that I may have had. Yeah,
yeah. And, you know, and don't, don't underestimate the power of puppetry, I guess, right?
Yes. Yes.
Who knew? Who knew? yet? So it's a there's a, it's kind of a joke around in my family that I'm in my mid 40s. And I grew up with the Muppets, you know, Sesame Street and like, you know, that was my jam. And so, you know, when they came back around, you know, and so, like some of the newer Muppet movies, I'm like, Oh, my kids are gonna love this. They're just gonna love puppets. And they're like, No, Dad. No, no, we do not love puppets. Like, come on, you know. And so I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing. But, you know, when you said puppet show, I'm like, Man, I want I want a puppet show.
Right? It's, it's so interesting how, you know, and speaking of things like the Muppets, and Sesame Street and all of that, like now you see, and you hear that they have different Muppets, different characters now that have certain disabilities. So it's like, wow, that's really cool. I have friends that will text me or email me and show me pictures. Like, oh, my daughter is obsessed with this character that, you know, that's in a wheelchair. And, you know, it says it reminds her view, and I'm like, Oh, wow, that's cool. That's great. Yeah, it's great to see the, the whole evolution of it. And my whole thing is, it's like going to the different places where you see these characters and like, they're kind of scary. Like, let's be real about that. Like, they're a little scary sometimes to be in full, you know, full size and all of that, but
So, why is inclusive education in this specifically, you know, learners with and without disabilities learning together? And, you know, I know, there's a whole, there's a lot more to it than that. But why is that important to you?
I think it's very important because we, it's, I always say like, I have a disability, and it's like, I live in your neighborhood, I shop in your stores, I go to the same malls as you. And, you know, we all have to interact and get along with each other. And I think that starting in a school setting where we're first I guess, that's like, one of the first places we're taught how to, you know, interact with each other, and learn from each other. Because it's, you know, the sharing thing that we are, you know, we're first taught when, you know, you have to share and, but we can all learn from each other, I think, and it's a little a little bit different, but I was having conversation with people yesterday about accessibility. And I said, you know, accessibility is helpful to everybody, everybody can use a ramp, we're not everybody can use a set of stairs because of their disability, necessarily. Everybody can use a ramp, whether you have a disability or not. So in I think inclusivity, as a whole is beneficial and helpful to everybody. And, again, it gives us a chance to learn from each other. And it also in my experience of sharing my story with students, typically I would do presentations and classroom setting, so there's 25, maybe 30 students, they are so they were so open with sharing their own stories of saying like, Oh, I have autism, and, you know, all the other students in the classroom are like, what? Oh, that. I didn't know that. You know, so we're sharing, sharing our experiences with each other and just learning from each other I think is the biggest takeaway that I that I can see from you know, having an inclusive education inclusive settings and in the schools.
Yeah, I think you created a you. I think you make a great point about it. Being vulnerable, and telling your story. And then that allowing other allows other people to also be vulnerable. And, you know, and say and say who they are. Because a lot of times we'll, you know, even with our co workers, we go and we do something. And it is until someone opens up and says something personal, that it starts the ball rolling. Right?
Right. Yeah, it does it really. It kind of like gives you that like Silent permission to like, say, like, okay, it's okay. And then it brings it back to I think the we, you know, we we are more alike than we are different. And it's, I think that helps with having everybody in the same setting and things like that, I think it really helps, you know, bring that point out that we have more, we have more things in common than we do differences.
So in the so in your organization, njca II, once you tell our listeners a little bit about your work, your mission as an organization in the services that you offer.
Yeah, so as I mentioned, I'm fairly new to the organization just under two years, I started in July of 2021, which is so hard to believe that was so long ago.
I know, I know, right?
It's like, wow, that went by really fast. But a little bit about njca II, we were formally incorporated as a nonprofit, back in 1995. So we've been around for quite some time. And the one thing that really are the few things I should say, that drew me to the organization, is that we really believe that, you know, having an inclusive education setting is a fundamental right for every student. And I think that really touched me because again, we people with disabilities, in my experience, I would say are sometimes like forgotten about and certain areas. So to connect with an organization that believes that like all students should be welcomed in the classroom and valued as leaders and learners is, you know, a really, really great thing that that really drew me to the organization. And when it me, inspired me, I should say, to find out more about this, you know, about the organization. And as far as our services, we offer professional development, opportunities for schools and teachers and leaders within the school and also consultant and coaching services. And just in my few years of working with NJC, ie, I love that we have a winter and a summer conference. So that's really great to see so many people that come together from our state. And, you know, I'm sure outside of the state as well. To join in and just to learn together and learn again, learn from each other, I think is a really big thing that, that I'd love about that. You know that we have those conferences when it's coming up in June, that I'm looking forward to attending again, and just being around so many people that find inclusive education to be important and necessary and to make these changes happen. Is this really
cool? Have you seen since the since coming on, in your being like in in the work day to day? Have you seen an increase in educators really, like wanting to find out more about inclusive education?
Yes, even just, you know, I won't say just with hosting the podcast, you know, getting the different feedback. And just in my own personal life, I have a lot of friends who, you know, who have listened to the podcast, and they're their teachers, and they really are so interested in it and just hearing the feedback from, you know, like, Oh, I like that question. And like you really, you really got into that one question with the one guest and just hearing. Hearing that and then listening to like your podcast and other podcasts. I know we've connected through a group that we put together of some other podcast, other podcasters and they're just learning from everybody and I say It is really making a difference. And in the world of podcasting, I think it makes it so easy because people can listen to it wherever. And having it at your, you know, your fingertips and literally on your phone, you can listen to it on your, on your way to work or from work while you're cleaning the house or just you know, hanging out sitting around doing nothing sitting on your porch on a nice spring day. It really does open up that door for more access to learn about inclusive education to have things like podcasts and, you know, YouTube videos and channels and things like that. So I, I've really seen and heard great feedback from, you know, different people that have found my podcast and within JCI II and just, you know, really appreciate it and the work that that is being done in this world of inclusive education.
Yeah, let's make sure to say the name of it. So it's called the think tank, where it's the inclusion Think Tank podcast. Yes, including Think Tank podcast. By njca II, you can listen to wherever you listen to podcasts, I'm assuming, because I basically found it whenever I've tried to find it. So it's there. Yeah,
we're all over the place. We are wherever you listen to your podcasts. We are there.
That's right. That's right. Are there some certain either things that you've learned from hosting the podcasts like just as far as information, or any particular guests that stand out that you're like, oh, man, that was, that was amazing. That was something I really learned a lot about.
I can say the, one of the things that it goes back to what I was just saying, really in an opposite direction, though, of having something at your fingertips and things happening fast. The one thing I learned that includes the inclusive education takes time. Things happen fast. That's just not the case. I think that's the biggest thing. And one of the most frequent things that I hear from my guests, you know, it takes time, you will see, you know, you will see little little steps or what you might perceive as being little steps, but you're moving in the right direction, keep at it don't give up. Just because you don't see the big success right away, you know, within the first couple of months, or the first year that you're working towards having an inclusive school, it takes time. So just stay with it. Don't you know, don't get tired of the work that you're doing, because it is making a difference. And it's I'm not sure when this will when this episode will air but I am working on an episode now where my guests says to find success in the little successes. So, you know, again, just to keep going and I I told her I said that's not just good advice for the inclusive education role. That's like good life advice. Oh, so yeah, just to find the success and the little things and celebrate those things, because it is happening. But that's I think that's one of the most frequent things that my guests say that, that it takes time you have to stick with it and believe in what you're doing that is that it is making a change.
I mean, I'm with you, Arthur. Because you talk about like, getting feedback. And there's so many more podcasts about inclusive education. Like when I started in 2012 that there were a few people putting out you know, some episodes. I remember the inclusive classroom. I don't know if you've ever listened to the inclusive classroom, Nicole Airtex. I know that I think Nicole did some did some speaking for ngca, right?
Yes, she was. And she was a guest on my podcast as well.
Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So Nicole has been, you know, at this a long time. And and there's so many more resources, whether they're books or podcasts episodes, people speaking, even more organizations providing consultation around inclusion and, you know, co teaching and systems change. It's there's just so much more out there than than there was and so, that to me, it seems like well, there must be more demand for that sort of information. So the more we can get the word out there, you know, so if you're listening and you want to start a podcast, you know, do it. If you want to go out there and write a book, go do it. You know? Yes,
yes, there is. You know, it's and I think I've heard conversations about since especially since 2020, the podcasting world has kind of been bombarded with new podcasts and things, but it's like, there's room for all of us. And that's right. And we're all bringing our own different perspectives. And just in the interviews that I've done, for the NJCAA e podcast, I am able to share parts of my story, you know, with the guests, they're telling certain things, and it, you know, reminds me of something that happened in my life, and it's just like, oh, wow, you know, so I'm having like a trip down memory lane, and I get to share little pieces of my world and what it was like, for me, being in a classroom and having a physical disability. And so it's, you know, there's room for all of us to share our stories and to, again, like you said, write that book, start that podcast, don't just do it. It's all helping, and it's all helping to move us forward in the right direction.
So thinking about edge care. So I know that there's a lot of educators that listen to the inclusion think tank, and in this podcast, what are some tips that you've gleaned from either your work at ng CAE or just the guests that you've had, for people who want to move inclusive education forward in their school or district, but you know, maybe you just don't know where to start?
I think it's, again, I think it's just like, we were just what, like we just said, To start, you know, to just do something to, you know, to get that ball rolling, and to, you know, again, just it can be something very small, doesn't have to be a great big, you know, great big project that makes everybody you know, shocked and say like, oh, wow, it can, it just, just the important part, I think, is to start doing something. And realizing that, and believing that you what you will do will, you know cause a change and cause other people to get on board. I think that's a really, really big thing that that scares a lot of people I think, makes people nervous. But, you know, we have to, we all have to start somewhere. So I think that's a really big thing.
I know that when so. I don't know how much you know about my story. But so I started in teaching in segregated self contained classrooms. So, you know, I taught in classrooms for 13 years, and then three years as a support specialist for a district in Georgia. And when I first started teaching, I had an idea of what inclusion was, and that there was a movement outside of just your regular typical school district to make schools and districts more inclusive. So learners, you know, so like a systematic effort for, for learners to be, you know, moved into general education classrooms from segregated spaces. But I never, like I wasn't able to teach in those spaces, because the schools that I worked at, you know, historically had segregated students. So, you know, if I worked at Dell elementary school, and they were self contained, or they worked in California at the time, so they're called special day classes, which they still have, you know, I wanted to be inclusive, you know, but I wasn't like, I can't, I can't change the, I can't change the culture of the school. I, I felt kind of powerless, you know. And so I wonder if, if you ever run across educators who, who maybe are even, like, don't know what to do, because they work in this type of environment, right? Or feel ashamed that they do work in this kind of environment, like, like, let's say you work in a special school, you know, because there's still out there, you know, in some states you know, are member having conversations early in the podcast, you would think inclusive and semi joking to my guests like, should I quit my job? You know, like, and so I'm just wondering if that's something you ever run across and like, in who you speak with and your organization, if that's something you have to deal with, like, as far as like mindsets like that? Yeah,
me, me personally. No, I have not, you know, running into that situation, but it is. You know, I'm sure I'm sure it is something that has happened. For people I know, here in New Jersey, we do have a special services schools. You know, for for those who have disabilities, but it's not something that I have, you know, run into with anyone that I've had interactions with. Yeah, but it, you know, I'm sure it has to be a tough, you know, tough decision to make, like you said, you know, you're kind of joking about it, like, do you leave this job? And, you know, but it's like, no, I want to make I want to make a change, but it's, uh, you know, it's hard. It can be difficult to do, I'm sure,
yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I think what you said before about it just starting, right, even if it's even if it's small, to consistently and constantly be working towards a system, and for me, I know, it was more of like, you know, what's my long term exit strategy? You know, and that's what ended up allowing me to leave in 2020 to join the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. Because, you know, I do, I had done all of this side work through the blog and the podcasts. And that actually allowed me to, you know, move away and go into communication. So that, that's just that that's how I did it. It's certainly not for everyone. Right. So tell me, you said, you're working on some podcast episodes? Do you have? Like, how do you structure your your show? Is it? Uh, do you have certain themes that you go? Are you mostly, like find educators in New Jersey that are doing this work? Or like, it helped me understand the, your process?
Yes. So this is we're getting towards the end of what we're calling the second season. So the first season was, the guest list was heavy on our inclusion facilitators at NJCAA II and the work that they do to share their stories and how they came from a lot of them came from being teachers and getting into this work. And then this second season, we focused on school leadership, those in school leadership positions, and how they can, you know, help bringing the Inclusive Education conversation to their schools and working with, again, I mentioned our spring and summer conferences, or our winter, and summer conferences that we have, at njca, and having some of those previous and future presenters on the podcast to talk about leadership, and then how we can you know, how we can all be a leader in our school to, you know, to help help continue that, bringing inclusive education to our schools, and, you know, once we're wrapping up the season, we'll figure out what our new topics will be for, for the fall, which is when we'll probably start, you know, the the next season of the podcast and what direction that will go in. And it's really, again, I think having, for me, like listening to all of the guests that I have the conversations with, everybody brings something different to the conversation. You know, so it's, it's great to have, you know, a podcast that strictly focused on inclusive education, because I think the topics are, you know, they're like, endless, you can really come up with different topics, or you can ask the same person, the same question and they have a totally different answer because of their experiences that they bring. Which is, it's so interesting to me. I love that part of it. Because it's, you know, again, I can ask the same four people the same question, then they come up with four different answers, and it's just like, yes, they're all great and they're all correct answer. It's like, that's really cool.
Do you like? Do you have like a go to question?
Um, I start off with a lot of times not every episode, but a lot of episodes. Like, what does inclusive education mean to you? What does that look like? And that's, that's a great question to ask because it really, again, it brings their own personal perspective and their own life experiences to that answer. So it's not anything that that's not a book answer that you can learn from reading a book. It's just like, what is it to you? What does it look like to you? It's a personal question. And just having different, the different guests answer it, it's always fun. And I also like to ask, I'm interested in people's stories, that's just a personal thing of me of my own. And how did as you just shared your story and your journey of getting to where you are in your career and, and the work that you're doing now? I love hearing how people how they started. And when did they first learn about inclusive education, and I had a guest on the talked about volunteering at a summer camp for people with disabilities. You know, and it kind of reminded me a little bit of my own story. It's like, I've had a disability my whole life. So it's always been there. But it took my conversation with my nephew to really say like, oh, yeah, people stare at me my whole life. I just, you know, I don't, it doesn't bother me. But but the fact that it bothered my nephew bothered me, was
like, Wait, yeah, that is interesting is you really took that personally. Yeah. So whereas you didn't take it personally, when they were just staring at you without additional person?
Yes, yeah. Because I grew up that way. But my whole life and my parents would say, oh, people will stare it's just, you know, you're different. You look different. You know, it's nothing, there's nothing wrong. And so I'm like, okay, cool. But I here I am, you know, almost 30 years old at the time, and my nephew says it irritated him and he got upset about I'm like, Oh, we have to fix this. Something needs to be done. You know, and it was like, first of all, it's like, pay number one calm down about it. Like it's not a big deal. Go in and tell them who I am. Tell them that I drive tell them that we take trips together. You know, he knows my you know my story. Tell him. Tell him about me. He's like, Yeah, okay. Like, there's nothing to be upset about. It happens. It's I'm okay. And I think he was more upset that I would be upset. Like, No, I'm fine. Like it happens. And I didn't even I didn't even notice it. That was the crazy thing. I'm like, who was staring at me? He was like, the kids at the school. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really interesting. So like I said, I love hearing people's journeys and their stories of how they got to where they are. And the connection they have to disabilities and, or not, and just how they became so passionate about inclusive education, I think is one of my favorite things about favorite questions to ask for the guests on the podcast?
Do you think that there is still like a voices that are missing from the conversation? No, I think about this, you know, when we're deciding who, you know, what kind of guests are on thinking inclusive or just in general, like, as we're approaching a school district on, on developing a shared understanding of inclusive education, like the voices that may potentially be missing? So in your view, who who are the voices that that we're not hearing enough of?
Um, I don't know. I don't know if they're necessarily missing. But I would, I would like to hear more from those who have disabilities to be included in the conversation and I know that can be difficult when you're working with children especially. But I would love to hear you know, the perspective of the students that are involved in you know, and in the schools that are you know, working toward an inclusive setting or or not, and just hear their experiences and what they mean. What they are dealing with, and what might frustrate them about this whole, the whole process of it all, or even, you know, those who may be older that have had to work through, you know, a non inclusive setting in their school experience. And just to hear the real life stories of, of those who had to go through this experience, going back again, to my conversations yesterday, I was talking with one of my friend's parents and her, her dad said to me, you know, my daughter, she's, you know, she's really involved in in the work and trying to make things better for those with disabilities. He said, and I understand what she does. And he said, but hearing your real life experiences of it said that just a whole new to a whole new level. He said, Wow, he said, That's, my daughter's been doing this work for a while, and I got what she was saying, but to hear that it actually happens to a real life person who I'm sitting next to talking to all day. Wow. And I think that's what I think sometimes that's what is needed. To really make people have that, like, Aha moment and say, like, oh, wow, like, this is real. It's not just something that people are making podcasts about, you know, or creating YouTube channels about, this is a real thing that happens to real people that we all know. So I think to, again, like I said, I don't know if I would say the voices are missing, but you know, to continue to include those who have the disabilities, because it's one thing to hear it from teachers or those in school leadership positions, and even parents, but when possible to hear from the actual student who this is impacting directly, I think is something really, really important that we can't, we can't overlook
anything else you want to share with educators, as they, you know, listen to this conversation.
I think I would just say, you know, what I've said before, which is to, to start somewhere. And and if you have started, keep going, that it takes time.
It takes time, patience and dedication, and it will pay off in the end. It's a you know, what, it's a marathon, not a sprint. So, which, which is very frustrating, and especially again, in today's time where everything is, you know, we needed to happen yesterday. That's it, it's not a fast thing. So I think that is to stay encouraged through this whole thing is, you know, most important is what I would share with with others.
Stay tuned for the mystery question right after this break.
Oh, this is, this seems to perfect. So did you have a favorite teacher? Or a teacher who made a big impact on your life? Oh, wow. Right. It's not a human education themed No, look at
it. Oh, wow. Um, yes. So I would say well, she was at a she was a school nurse at my school so
and I bring her up because she's still a very good friend of our family now actually call her my aunt. She was the first person that I met at the elementary school to Aunt Bonnie. And she of course, when any parents sends a child to school for the first time, they are nervous about a lot of things. But at that time, I was starting kindergarten I guess it was I still had I was still going through surgeries and things because of my spinal bifida. I didn't have control of my bowels are my bladder at that time. So my parents were really just like, and did we want to do this? She really helped put all of us at ease and really looked out for me and It just really made made me feel comfortable with my, you know, disability diagnosis. And my whole situation I was, you know, I was wearing depends at the time diapers at the time because I didn't have control. So just to she was very instrumental in again, helping facilitate those conversations, and the and the puppet show situation. Yes, to make everybody to make everybody more comfortable with, you know, with me and being a new student at the school and all of that. And just and ever since then, like, I've been on vacation with her up. In Long Island, she had a house at the Jersey Shore, I would go for the weekend with her like, this was after I was out of the elementary school and you know, we spend like Christmas Eve together and things like that, and just hanging out. So she really just helped was a big part in me, learning more about myself and being comfortable with myself of having a disability and being you know, at that time being the only one in the school that had a visible disability, I'll say, you know, that was a physical disability. So, yeah, I would, I would say her.
Oh, shout out to school nurses and nurses everywhere. Yes, yes. Yes. So my wife is my wife is a nurse and Rn. So I know, I know. Their scissors are amazing. Yeah. So this is hard. But the teacher that first came to mind, when I read the question was, would have to have to be my fifth grade teacher, Mrs. Winchester. I have always had a problem, not a problem. I've always struggled with self esteem. And, you know, it's, it's weird, because, you know, most people think I'm an extrovert, because I have a podcast, I'm definitely not an extrovert. I like my alone time. And, and so being around a lot of people, you know, is something that I, I do like sometimes, but not all the time. And so Mrs. Winchester knew this about me. And she encouraged me to run for my, as a class president. And, and so you know, we had like, 20, I don't know, 2030 kids, it's hard to remember at this point. But I remember giving a speech. And I remember, there was voting, and I distinctly remember putting, you know, we did a cat class vote, and I remember, like, putting my head down on my desk, and everyone would raise their hand and who whatever. And she, like, tallied up the thing. And, and so she announced to me that I had one class president, and I was like, so completely floored that this had happened to me, because it's not like, I'm not like, I wasn't like a popular kid. No, not that I was, like, not not popular, or whatever, it just, I would have never done it. Unless she had. She had encouraged me to do that. And I really think that, that was one of the reasons why I started looking into more leadership things and, you know, in middle and high school, and in even in my career, it was something that really propelled me that someone believed in me, right, someone believed that I could do it. And, and it, I just have that really great memory. And I remember I graduated from I went to a I went to a private school was a K eight. School. And in middle school, as I was about to graduate, you know, she had, she was still there. And, and she was just so supportive of me, you know, as graduating going high school, and saying, oh, you know, I always knew that you had it in you, you know. And so, thank you, Mrs. Winchester for believing in me. And I'll always remember that.
Yes. That was a great question. That was a great question.
Arthur asks him, thank you so much for being on the think inclusive podcast. I really appreciate your time. Yeah.
Thanks for having me. It was great, had a great time great conversation.
That China means it's free time and this week, I'm going to share a short interview I did with Jeff Adams, the Arkansas Director of Special Education MCIE had the pleasure of providing an all day professional learning experience for state tech equals service providers. And let me tell you apart from being very passionate about inclusion, they are equally passionate about Razorbacks football. I'll make sure to drop a link in the show notes with the all in toolkit. And I'll even throw in a link to a video of a hug call. It is really something to behold.
Jeff Adams, I'm the director of special education within the Office of Special Education for Arkansas Department
of Education, how would you describe all in so all
in is our state's approach to ensuring that learners have access to meaningful educational experiences. And for our particular work, that heavily centers around students who have disabilities. So we are heavily focused on making sure that students get access to general education environments, or least restrictive environments. But that initial consideration is always general education, all students are general education all the time. And that's really the essence of all in. But we have initiatives, strategies, professional learning opportunities, that all feed into that one interstate highway, so we have multiple access ramps to the interstate. And so we have smaller initiatives feeding into that larger initiative. But the interstate really is the all in initiative.
And you've developed a an online resource for people in the state is that right?
We have done that we have a toolkit, an all in Toolkit, which has considerations for inclusive practices for various stakeholders within our system. That includes parents as experts within that system, administrators, general and special educators related services. And really, the information is not that different, but it's geared toward those various stakeholders. And that language within the the toolkit is geared toward those specific audiences to make sure that the information is calibrated to making sure that they understand what this is all about.
And the the end goal of all in, like, what are the outcomes that you're looking for?
Ultimately, we want to see the gap, the disparities that exist within our data, ELA, math, all subject areas, we want to see that gap narrower and eventually be eliminated. That sounds like a large task, but we believe it's possible. We want to see individual students, though within their own trajectories have significant growth. So we want to see individual students meet growth expectations, or actually exceed those expectations. And then really, what we want our productive Arkansans who have meaningful post secondary outcomes. But we realize that that occurs when they're in early childhood, we start making those decisions on behalf of students that affect their trajectories. And if we're going to have meaningful post secondary outcomes, our system has to be aligned throughout early childhood, throughout K 12, into those post secondary experiences.
And so, where if you were to describe what what we did today, like what, what was today all about, and where are we? So
today, we, you facilitated professional learning experience for our professional technical assistance arm of the Department of Education, Office of Special Education. So these are experts in the field, and yet getting a group of experts to coalesce around a mission to agree upon, to a large extent what the mission is. That's what we worked on today is really looking at what does inclusion mean, for those of us who are investing in educator experiences and student experiences at the local level? Do we agree on that? Do we have a mutual understanding of what that is? We worked through teaming processes to get to those agreements and to process areas where we may lack agreement. And then we we really work through ideas of what are our structures revealing to us Do our structures that we have in schools does the master schedule does do the decisions we make an IEP team? Decision moments are those reflective of what we then say we agree upon with inclusion and inclusive practices. And so we, we worked with people who are gurus, experts in the field to have them think through our collective understanding as compared to just an individual understanding.
Okay, and then final question for you. Why is this work important to you, Jeff Adams, for multiple
reasons. But I would say because I have a single student in mind, who impacted me early on in my career, who at the time, I would have questioned what the outcome would would be and why which we should focus heavily to intervene. Some had given up on the student she was very medically fragile. One could question if you know, she had capable skills to communicate and to learn. And I think through through this student, I realized how capable she was How, how strong she was, with being able to communicate even though she didn't speak. To express herself through learning opportunities, though the way she expressed herself was different than the majority of students. And to see her go from a place of complete isolation, to a place of full participation and life, though it still looked different for her in, in comparison to many other citizens, she became a productive citizen with a job, productive citizen of society, she was fully involved in life. And so seeing that one student and realizing that we have almost 70,000 students in Arkansas on IPs, to presume competence and to expect that all students can learn at high levels. That's why it matters to me is because I know that it happened for her, that one student, if it can happen for her, it can happen for all. Thanks, Jeff.
For more information about inclusive education or to learn how you can partner with MCIE on school transformation or professional learning opportunities, visit MCIE.org Love thinking cluesive. Here are a few ways to let us know rate us on Spotify or leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Become a patron like these fine people and get extra stuff. thank you to Aaron P. Jarrett T Joyner a, Cathy B, Mark C, Gabi M and Kathleen T. We appreciate your continued support of thinking inclusive, think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me to Vegas, Original Music by miles credit additional music from melody thanks for your time and attention and remember inclusion always works.
I love how you said you're you're not an extrovert because I am the quiet one in my group of friends. And they're just like so you create a podcast and
you Oh I know. I know.
And you have jobs where you like talk to people like wow oh my gosh. True.
