579: Design vs. Dollars: Striking the Perfect Balance with Brian Wakelin of Public Architecture: Otter Voice Meeting Notes

579: Design vs. Dollars: Striking the Perfect Balance with Brian Wakelin of Public Architecture

Enoch Sears55min

Unknown Speaker

00:00

What are you doing that's different?

Rion Willard

00:01

Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host, Ryan Willard, and today we are joined by Brian wakeling, a seasoned architect who has been shaping professions since 1989 co founder of public in 2008 Brian has a firm known for its collaborative spirit and exceptional problem solving. Under his leadership, public has garnered numerous prestigious accolades, including recognition from the Society of colleges and university planning, the Canadian Society of Landscape Architects and the Architectural Institute of British Columbia, where they've won an incredible six times in 2012 they were named the aibcs emerging firm of the year, followed by the Canada Council for the Arts pre de Rome in 2015 and the Robert ledigham award in 2017 Brian is a trusted advisor, renowned for his ability to bring together diverse voices and achieve consensus on complex projects, particularly in Education, First Nation and institutional contexts. He's also a prolific writer and speaker with work featured in design quarterly spacing and more. Beyond his practice, Brian has given back to the architectural community through advisory roles and teaching at UBC school of architecture and landscape architecture. In this episode, we will be discussing the importance of the role of design director and how design can be facilitated through other people. We look at working with multi headed corporate clients and how Brian is able to get consensus on complex projects, and we talk about winning work and marketing and how to move into sectors which you haven't worked in before. So loads of gold here. Sit back, relax and enjoy. Brian wakelet, this episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architecture's flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smartpractice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners. We hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it about the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month. Interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support@businessofarchitecture.com Brian, welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?

Unknown Speaker

02:44

Good morning. I'm

Rion Willard

02:45

great. Really great to have you on the show. You're an architect. You're a co founder of public which is a multidisciplinary design practice, and you're working at this very interesting kind of crossover between architecture and Communication and Media. You've worked in architecture for over 25 years. You've got degree from from British British Columbia. I know that you like to consider yourself a deep generalist, somebody who moves from knowledge silo to knowledge silo and and, you know, it's a very, it's a very unique proposition as well, that some of the work that you guys do at public so perhaps we'll start there. And, you know, how would you explain or describe the kind of work that you do at public architecture?

Speaker 1

03:37

Sure. So, yeah, it's a multidisciplinary firm, and the firm is engaged in matters of public significance, I suppose, at this time, in this part of the world, as in many parts of the world, there are lots of issues that are affecting our society at large, whether that be housing affordability, whether that be dealing with the colonial past, whether that be dealing with a whole myriad of social issues and issues accelerated by climate change as well. And we find ourselves in the middle of that in all kinds of different project types. And so in our I suppose something, we always filter the work we do. Will, whatever this particular endeavor is, will we have the most How can we have the most impact for the most people? Is really the goal. And so that takes us into all kinds of places, doing all kinds of different things.

Rion Willard

04:40

So a lot of housing education, kind of traditional building typologies, and there's a lot of civic work that's that's there. What's the sort of DNA that links all of these different types of projects? How would you best describe that?

Speaker 1

04:57

Yeah, some days I wonder how that. Threads together myself. It at public. We do a lot of things for actually, a very small group of clients. We generally are highly serviced in for different groups of people that build a law that's one of the things that I suppose, we set out at the beginning, to try to find organizations that could affect big change, whether they be governments or quasi governments, like universities or things like that. And that allows us to suppose, in one way, offer full service. But what that means also is we are able to do lots of different things within that organization, so that that thread is sometimes an interesting amount of influence and opportunity in ways that, you know, when I graduated from architecture school and I thought, This is what I'm going to do, and it'll be, I don't know, things that will Make all of the design mags in the meet at that time. And in some ways, the kind of influence or the ways we permeate through organizations I find every day surprising and encouraging. To be honest, I didn't realize, you know, at the time in my education, one of my great mentors said, as an architect, you know, you can't do very much. You don't actually control the capital. You're not in control of the entire operation. You certainly have influence, you have voice, you have a lens, but ultimately, it's somebody else's, uh, check, right? So how are you going to and he would challenge me to find a way for for influence. And, you know, I would say 25 years later that actually I'm surprised by the kinds of modes of influence we have despite, you know, we're obviously having to balance clients needs, and ultimately it's they're the ones paying the bills, and, you know, guiding the lens, if you will, in some respect, but it has been an encouraging kind of path. So there's just a, I suppose, a little bit of a hand or a constant influence from us to our clients of that might be interesting, and we helped you puzzle through that particular problem, or what it is, so it's not a great, I'll answer, or not a great. Well,

Rion Willard

07:28

you, you mentioned something very interesting there, actually this kind of that there were, there are lots of these different modes of influence that the architect can have on on the client, or in the kind of production of of the built environment? Could you talk a little bit more about some of the more non traditional modes of influence that you see that architects or architecture has, and that your practice kind of engages itself in? Yeah.

Speaker 1

08:00

So one characteristic of our clients is there tend to be large organizations that move slowly and have lots of internal processes, some might say internal politics, but I don't think that's a fair statement. I think there's just due process required, and as an architect or an outsider to that organization, you have the ability to observe without filter. In some ways, you're a consultant. You're there just you've been brought in for ultimately, action. Ultimately, to give a third party lens and to stir the pot might be one way to look at it, or just just help see things and say things that somebody within an organization may not feel empowered to do. And as an outsider, you bring in that lens of look. This is what we're seeing in the industry. This is what multiple clients do age similar kinds of things are themselves seeing. So you bring that kind of lens of expertise from across multiple jurisdictions, or whatever it is, so that that can help kick the ball down the field in organizations that might otherwise go lowly.

Rion Willard

09:10

That, I think that's quite interesting as well. Certainly, when you're working with a more complex, multi headed perhaps a corporate client or an institutional client, there's often these organizations become quite large in themselves and their own internal communication processes are what you might expect. And then the architect comes in, and the architect is positioned in this quite unique position to be able to help a large entity like that self reflect or even take an audit of the different parts of it. Or, you know, you're talking about university, there are different departments that are not won't have traditionally spoken with themselves or with each other for a long period of time. You might have decision making processes inside of the organizations that are antique. And the architect comes in, and the first thing you actually got to figure out is, how can we, how can we help these guys, one communicate each other and to actually make meaningful decisions?

Speaker 1

10:10

Yeah, yeah. I suppose a lot of things I find in the beginning of a conversation of, if there's something that's stuck, I may this is what your peers are doing. That's a very valuable statement, and it's a statement that is not easily done by somebody internally. They may not be aware, or they may not be have that kind of level of power within an organization to say that they may feel that they cannot voice that kind of opinion. And you know, as soon as you say that it may stick or it may not, and for that particular organization, they're like, Wow, that's what the other guys are doing. That's fine. That's not us. Where this time great. That's fine, at least is, you know, a duty to inform and hope that you know, ultimately, the best of what all the various peers are doing rises to the top and help make some significant change when it's needed.

Rion Willard

10:59

How did you found the company, and did you move straight when you kind of first started the organization? Did you immediately go into working on these larger scale types of projects, or did you have more of a kind of small practice startup scenario, doing private residential and then one thing led to another, and you've you found your way into these, into these traditionally very difficult sectors to get into.

Speaker 1

11:28

Yeah, great question. So I never imagined myself at the beginning of my career that I would have a firm. It just it didn't. Wouldn't say it was daunting or intimidating. It just literally didn't occur to me as a thing that I would do. My family, my my father and my brothers have all been in public sector work. My father was a planner and an architect, and was in civic planning, and my my brothers are professionals, foresters and engineers, and they work in municipal government to do their thing. And I suppose, in some ways, that's always a bit of a filter, you know, what's, what's, what did you grow up with? Then after, you know, going through, after my education, I spent a decade working for a big corporate firm, a multinational firm, and so I was exposed to lots of different project types. It was a really great kind of mentorship and upbringing, if you will. And there was definitely two kinds of projects that I would characterize that I was involved with. There was a lot of market sector work, private sector housing, Vancouver, western North America, there's lots of speculative building that takes place, as in other cities. And that was a certain kind of work, and was part of my world. And then there was a whole other world where it was specifically higher education work. I was lucky to to manage that effort for that firm, for initially, for all of Canada, and then it all kind of took me into various places and so on. And so there was a point for for me when I figured out that I don't think I want direction from anybody else anymore. I felt I was at a point in my career that, you know, I'm suddenly, oh, I am gonna watch. And it just occurred to me, like overnight, there was a whole series of things that kind of happened for me, and so I came out of that system with a certain lens and a certain level of comfort with decent scale projects, ones that were complicated in terms of user groups and so on. And then I did what like how I remember on your podcast, or I've heard this before, Bjarke angles started out as kind of a little bit of a person without the level of experience that he was able to talk himself into. And I think he hired himself into. And I think he hired the level of experience he needed once he needed that. In some ways, I was the inverse. I had a level of experience that was no match for an upstart firm. It's very difficult one person operation to say, I want to do a giant Research Laboratory at a university, right? But I found a part who was actually a small practitioner, and had, you know, the the insurance figured out, the certificate of practice, figured out the bookkeeping, figured out all that kind of stuff. And that was, for us, a really good match. And then we brought others into the fold. And I suppose it came out of the lineage of that large firm experience I had had where I had seen people of various expertise and disciplines, and the value of that, having that internally, to be able to tap on somebody's shoulder and say, can you just do something that I don't have any expertise in? And. And, you know, grabbing that individual for a short period of time for something intensely and so that that was the genesis, but also stepping back to that experience at that time, you know, whenever it was 15 years ago in this part of the world, private sector, multi family housing work, which was kind of the the vehicle for a lot of practices here, was unfulfilling for me for a whole variety of reasons. And I specifically, and my partners, we set out to do something other than that. That was an area, also the market that was very well served here. There were lots of people that really knew how to do that and how to find not only a skill set in it, but a passion for it. And we found something that was opposite. We had an interest in other areas, and a skill set that was worked best in other areas. And so that was

Rion Willard

16:00

So was it a case? Then was it with Robert that you co founded, uh, John, John was with John as a John. So John, John was the the practitioner that had the smaller aspects all up and running, and then you guys combined forces, and then Robert and Shane was it

Speaker 1

16:19

was Rob Shane, and the time it was Susan and and then there's Teresa. And so there's a whole variety of people that kind of came into the group, and some of branched out into different directions, and so on. So it's a loose gel. I'll describe it that way, of things that kind of come into the jail for when they go on and spawn and do other things and all that stuff. But

Rion Willard

16:44

great, great. And so when you first started, how were you bringing in projects? What were the, what was the first kind of way that you were able to market yourselves and actually get get up and running.

Speaker 1

17:00

Yeah, we started with nothing. I didn't take any work with me from my previous firm or anything like that. We started old dining room table on John's, John's house. And what did we have to do? Really nothing. And but, you know, luck, serendipity. There was a couple of things that happens. It's, it's a reasonable starting story. And I, woah, boy, I was lucky. So I was leaving my pre I love starter stories from from my peers, because they are all fascinating. So for us, there was, I went to a conference on higher education architecture. And I sat down outside of these conference sessions, and I was planning out what I was going to do for the next couple of days. And somebody sat down next to me as she was going through her program, and we just got chatting of, Oh, this looks interesting. What are you going to go and see? And so on. And then we introduced ourselves, and she said, I am Karen Hearn. I'm the head of facilities for this university. And I like, Oh my God, I've been trying to meet you for years. And she said, Who are you? And I said, Well, I'm, I'm, this is me, and here's my business card. But in a month's time, I'm not going to be there anymore, and I'm actually going to take my family on holiday for a couple of months and just decompress, and then I'm going to watch something new. And she said, that's interesting. I want you to come and talk to me when you're back. And so this was a person that in my former firm, we couldn't seem to get position in with. And ultimately, there was a personality issue with, you know, within my firm that and that just was never a fit. And a couple months later, I was sitting in their office, and another person within that organization walked through the door, who I knew from another municipal government. I said, you're working here. And he said, yeah, great to see you. And so, you know, there was an immediate couple of connections. And then a third thing, which was like the, not the nail in the coffin, what is the opposite of that? It was the whatever the the thing that both the table on her desk was a white paper that I had been part of in my previous firm that for an academic journal. And she said, Oh, this is very interesting. You just were an author on this. And I said, Oh, my God, like the stars have just aligned here. Yeah, yeah. And she said, What are you interested in? And and I said, Well, I gave the elevator pitch of of what my firm was at that point, which was a very short pitch, I can assure you, just wanted to do anything right. And she said, What do you want to do? And I said, I want to do, you know. And she saw my CV, she saw my my background, and you know, there was some significant projects there. And I said, I want to do your smallest project, and I want to do it really well. And she said, that is. Something I've got. And two weeks later, we started on a project at the university, and I continue to work for that university today. Wow. And, and, yeah, it was, in some ways, blind luck. In some ways it was maybe careful positioning from the the large firm that I was with, you know, that was the My name was known, and the white paper landed on her desk and all that kind of stuff, but serendipity, luck and good fortune. So

Rion Willard

20:27

And how big is the firm now

Speaker 1

20:30

we're in the 30 person March, and it's, yeah, it's been a pretty even and steady growth over the years. You generally you generally pick up a couple people each year. And so it's, you know, it's a comfy size.

Rion Willard

20:47

And so there's, there's 30 people, four partners. How is the team kind of structured internally? Yeah, sure. How would you, how would you describe the hierarchical hierarchy, if there is one. And how do decisions and visions get manifest throughout the throughout the practice,

Speaker 1

21:10

I suppose, like every upstart, we were very flat for a long time. And in the last five years or so, we realized that depth is required for us to continue to do what we're doing. And so, you know, there's, it's actually three partners, three owners, there's an associate principal, and then there is a tier of a couple of senior associates and and new associates underneath us, and then, and then the rest of the mix. And so it's and I suspect after that, the structure, I think, is fairly conventional. We do as many things as we can in a conventional manner as possible, so that we can focus on the unconventional things. We try to keep as many things as possible predictable, and so the leadership is really the three with some advisors around us for design director, marketing director, administrative support and all the business keeping and all that kind of stuff. So it really the leadership and the decision making is primarily the three with advisors. But you know, everybody that comes into the the leadership group, they're in there. They're part of that group because they have a diversity of experience and and a useful opinion, because, oh, my God, you cannot see it all yourself. You cannot do it all as a, as a I admire and deeply anxiety ridden by sole practitioners or groups that have figured out, at least on the surface, to pretend that there is a single leader. I don't know how that works at all, and I find that I could never sleep at night with all the myriad of decisions that you have to go through. So it is going to say a small bureaucracy, but there is, it's a small level of management. I mean, it is one of the reasons that the groups we work with may identify with us that there is kind of peers. We're kind of like them.

Rion Willard

23:26

How do you nowadays like in terms of the partners roles? How would you describe what the partners roles are, comparatively to senior associates, to, you know, maybe more junior members of the of the team. How would, yeah, how would you describe what the what the kind of core components or domains are as a partner? Do you still get to design? Do you still have the involvement in projects or,

Speaker 1

23:55

yeah, not a lot of golf being played here, where we are, the partners are still actively on the well, to varying degrees, on the tools, if you will. And very much I'll back up there is a characteristic to the way that our firm does, for example, business development, marketing and so on, is we are the the kinds of people we work for, and the kinds of opportunities we pursue allow us to actually spend a lot of time practicing our craft. It's different than my peers and and my former firm. I recall, and I see others spending a lot of time actually figuring out how to get more work to do and things like that. We have, I think we're quite lucky in that my partners and I, we spend, it's two thirds to three quarters of our day dealing directly with projects, directly with issues, either drawing them in some. Cases, going through all the Marietta decisions and so on. So we're, I suppose we have crafted a position so that we can continue to practice the craft that we enjoy. Now on the flip side, on the flip side, listen. I'm a student of your podcast, and I know that there will be a whole series of people saying, oh, man, you got to get out of that. You got to be actually doing more hunting and gathering and all that kind of stuff. So I do think that public is at an inflection point, and there is a mode where we're going to need to grow into enabling work as opposed to doing work. I think some one of your guests said that, effect. And as a student, every morning I get up, and I think, you know, on that podcast, they would have said, you know, you have no business drawing window, although I really enjoy it, but you cannot do that and pretend that you're going to feed, you know, an organization of 30 plus people. And the only reason we're 30 people at the moment is we're out of space. We can't. We can't physically grow anymore. There, there is, there is. We have more opportunities than we have capacity for so we might. I know we are at an inflection point, and as soon as our lease is up, we'll, we'll, we'll step into something else, and, and, and we'll continue to grow, having said that, that all depends on the outcome of certain elections in this part of the world, and we'll see which way the decision makers in this part of the world continue to lean towards right,

Rion Willard

26:28

exactly. So it's quite interesting that you say that as well. Like you know, there would be a lot of people when you get to a firm size of 30, like, your role as a leader starts to shift a little bit, and it's not that can be a bit what's the word either disruptive or it's not what you were expecting as an architect. And now you're trying to facilitate design. You know, you're trying to facilitate great design through other people. And as you were saying, You're not, you're not necessarily on the on the tools. What have been some of the major shifts that you've seen growing from like two of you and then maybe to 10 persons to now to 30, each of those have got their own kind of unique set of problems. What? How have the problems evolved or shifted throughout the business, or, like, you know, what kind of problems were you dealing with that you're not dealing with now? And,

Speaker 1

27:28

oh, yeah, kind of evolution? Well, classic stuff, right? And so it's two individuals on a dining room table doing everything, and then it's three partners on two dining room tables doing everything, and then, and then all those kinds of issues associated with flat organizations, right? We felt all of that. And really it was again at that, that moment as five odd years ago, where we decided, oh my god, I could just not get up every morning and continue to run flat out on every fire that is just so unproductive. And our clients were like, you know, this invoice is three months old that you just have, you know, it's already super sailing, and you just get this together, please, right? So, yeah, at a point you cannot just pretend you're gonna do all of that anymore. And so with the promotion of really key people within to give us the that ability to hire two administrators to deal with keeping all of the lights on and all of that stuff, and one key decision was a design director. So that's a person who is unencumbered with any client contact whatsoever, although he will at his discretion when he wants to have a sense of you know, who's who's driving certain decisions, he will step into certain conversations and see them and so just that, as a single person on design quality and control, who touches every project, so that you know no longer to the firm owners, have to say, you know this group over here, you should go and talk to them, that that person now is a conduit across all projects, and so That and that has freed up he's just way better at all those things that I am, for example, and my my partner would say the same thing. So that helps free up bandwidth for partners, and it improves quality, and it it just means that you don't have to be there every day looking over the shoulder of whatever. So that was a great move for us. And I think we'll continue to build that kind of depth and thickness in a similar capacity. We have a marketing director and all those kinds of things. So people that are just focused on those things

Rion Willard

29:55

going into that role that's really interesting the design so the design director. Role, what they're, they're somebody who's got, like they're not working directly on the project, but rather, they're managing the quality of the project. So are they setting, like, a kind of precedent of what the architectural language is, or or setting what the design manifesto is? So they're, I assume that they're an architect themselves, a lot of a lot of experience, that's great.

Speaker 1

30:22

And Shane is super bright guy, and has as a touch with people as well, which is very important, right? He is. He's a master tactician, like, like any good chess player. He has, you know, one, one attack move, and he has two to three counters that that if the you know, if a project zigs, when you think it's going to zag, he's like, Oh, no problem. We're going to go this direction. I know where to go. So it's, it really reduces the stress. It reduces, like, from running a business, it makes you not every decision is you're not throwing all the dice on every move. He's just somebody who is unencumbered with all of the firehose of stuff that it takes to run a business and run a project. He is, deliberately, we've removed him from that, and he's just got clear thinking going on. And then he's partners and associates, and the team members still are, you know, they're driving the project, but she is. He's entrusted with all major decisions. And you know, when he is generally put a position forward, nine out of 10 of those are going to go that direction. It doesn't mean he rules with impunity or anything like that. It's it, it, it's, it's, it's a measured kind of position. And he's keenly politically astute. He has great social intelligence. So he can, you know, he can read any room. He's a very quick study. So it's that, for us, has been really enabling.

Rion Willard

31:56

I mean, so, so he's not actually involved then in any of the production work, but more like a kind of design advisor, where he might sit down, and he probably has the capacity then to be able to put his hand or direction on, like a large number of different projects in a given day, for example. And yeah, I'm assuming he can probably draw and sketch very well, and has a whole repertoire of amazing communication tools. Yeah,

Speaker 1

32:27

yeah. He's a Swiss Army knife of an architect. He's got a tool for everything. He's good.

Rion Willard

32:33

Is that the kind of role that you could see yourself having another director like that? Yeah? Because, because that right, that's a really very thoughtful way of managing and and maintaining design, like quality and consistency, and also stops a practice at a certain scale starting to splinter into lots of different factions, if you like,

Speaker 1

32:58

yeah, you've got it exactly. It's an important role for keeping culture, but it's also, there's a bandwidth issue there as well, right? That we have to be careful. It's you can't keep tapping him for every and I do. I tap on him for all sorts of decisions, because he's a trusted advisor, right? And just by by scale and by discipline, I think is going to be logical that we'll add others that do that and compliment, you know, and they may be, you know, an interior director or others, right? It just literally at this moment, at that inflection point thing, we're just simply out of desks to be able to grow into the other positions.

Rion Willard

33:40

And this the design director role. Was it something that he grew into from being an architect, or did he come from outside and then kind of land as this over oversight figure?

Speaker 1

33:57

He came from outside another organization in town, a very strong firm, and he started as a project architect, and it was and it was quickly, he was a trusted advisor in several arenas. But we were literally, we were interviewing somebody, and I had a thought for a design director role. We were interviewing another outside candidate, and he was sitting through the interview, and ultimately that interview wasn't successful. And he said, that sounds like a really good job. Do you think I could do that? And I laughed, and I said, Well, I gotta even see that like I was so blind to it, and it's just like anything, a good advisor can help point out the obvious, right? And and that was that worked for him for so many different reasons, for who he was, personally as well and all that. So it was kind of like the starting story. It's another thing of serendipity, and sometimes you just don't see the obvious, or it takes a moment of the lightning strikes to shake you out of, oh yeah, this is super obvious. Why don't we just do that? Yeah? Yeah, I

Rion Willard

35:00

think that's a great way of, you know, managing design in a in a practice where you've got one of the partners, or, like, a high level design director who's able to come in and problem solve and be strategic and tactical and direct, and then aren't encumbered with the sort of the grind work of loads and loads of production bar are a very key resource for the rest of the design team. And imagine as well, it's also quite an aspirational position where there's lots of other designers, architects in the firm, who would love to be also doing that. So it kind of creates a nice pull of sort of experience where people want to be moving in their careers? Absolutely, yeah,

Speaker 1

35:43

no, it's and he is such a resource, and people see him as that, there's a great respect. And again, it comes back to that social intelligence he has. He just has a great way of delivering what ultimately might be a scathing analysis of some work that's in front of them, but, but he does it with, you know, just acumen and and real sensitivity. So, so the the teams are always come out of these sessions, and the team will have a touch point with him two to three times per week. So it's continuous. There. They're micro adjustments. Sometimes there's a macro or big turns in direction, but generally they're always course directions, as opposed to radical slipping the table kind of

Rion Willard

36:27

thing in terms of maintaining your finances and profitability on a project. There's quite a shift that practice goes through, from working with five people, up to 30 people, and now you've got numerous projects. And you know, financial project manager, management comes much more of a sophisticated beast. Or can do what has been your kind of evolution around actually, you know, keeping projects on budget and managing the fees and actually setting fees and making sure that there's enough profit allocated to

Speaker 1

37:06

Yeah, I know, and this is where I think about being a student of the show we're seeking to continually improve. That is what I would put forward. And probably for a long time we operated with a simple bookkeeper and all of that. And probably too long, right? That stretched out from the days where that makes sense as a as a startup, and now it's a two person organization. There's an accountant and the wings and all of that good stuff. And so we have people that are looking specifically at forecasting all the resource needs, looking at every week. Every Monday morning we touch on resourcing. Every Monday morning we talk well as it all, first of all, I'll back up as an office every Monday morning we meet, we talk about the week's activities, deadlines and all that kind of stuff. But we also talk about resourcing. Which projects have a push that week? Are there insufficient resources on one and is there a surplus on another? Then we take that information into an internal meeting of just the principals and Associates, and we, we, we try to take any action that we heard out of that conversation and and allocate resources, right? That's our major expense as a group. And that administrative team sits in that resourcing meeting and says, you know, they're tracking all of that, and ultimately, you know, we have software now that'll tell us if there's a disconnect that, oh, those resources don't match what you've got in the bank, so to speak, for that project. So you need to figure out something else. And and our design director sits in on that conversation, so that he is attuned to, oh, this project. You know, there's, we're, we're coming to the end of a phase. We need to be finding solutions that quickly come to a conclusion, as opposed to opening, you know, at times projects open and and it's a wide open, let's, let's look at the where the rubber meets the sky kind of thing, or it's, or we need to really dial in and get through this particular milestone. So it's, it's, it's that, and that's always a challenge of capacity, right? That that information flow and capacity to have everybody knowing all things at all times is we're at a point where that's not necessarily viable in a firm of this size, that that that is a that's one of the things as a small firm that you have to let go as you grow, that not everybody will know everything all the time. A colleague of mine calls it the doomsday scenario. He's he's got a practice. It's a similar size, and he he can't sleep at night unless he knows how to do everything if something happened tomorrow, or another pandemic, or whatever, he feels that he needs to be able to go in in the morning and to, in his mind, to an entirely empty studio, turn on the lights, get the plotter running, get the drawings going, get the coffee maker going. And he feels that he needs that. And but then there is the the flip side. Of I was frustrated by the coffee maker this morning. I barely got the tech going to get onto the thing. So I'm at that moment where I'm having to let go more and more of these things, which at times, is obviously frustrating, yeah, well,

Rion Willard

40:13

and it's also, I mean, on, you know, from a logical point of view, it delegation and letting go of these tasks seems, of course, it just makes a lot of sense. And you're here, you know us on the on the podcast here, and other business commentators will be talking about the importance of delegation. But actually, it's like, emotionally, it's not always straightforward, because particularly when there's so many aspects of the job that you love, or, you know, architects, I typically find them, one of the the disadvantages architects have is number one, being generalists, and number two being, you know, very intelligent and very talented at lots of different things, and are able to normally pick things up and get a pretty good competency at a multitude of different skills. And actually, sometimes in business that that can be, certainly from a production standpoint, that can be problematic, because now you want to do all these different things, and you've got an intellectual interest and all these different components, and now you're being involved in all this kind of stuff, and then to let go of something is is difficult, you know, I'll often speak to practices and they're pursuing a particular type of work for no other reason than, Oh, you know, I mean, even at their own detriment. So it might be projects that are kind of costing the business money to actually participate in, but the one of the partners is fond of doing them, or they have a, you know, an intellectual interest in doing them. That's like, okay, but is it working for the business to be able to do to do that? What sorts of things have you you and the team and the other other principals kind of been learning to let go of, or have struggled to let go of, or or something just like, if you know what, we're not supposed to let go of this thing at all.

Speaker 1

42:07

Well, we were home, and it's one of the things that comes with working for the earlier statement or characteristic of our firm. We have a very short client list who we do a lot of things for, and one of the downsides of that. It's a blessing and a curse, right? So they'll call you for everything, which is great because they're calling, but on the downside, you can be doing really menial projects that have miserable multipliers, and ultimately, your staff is like, why are we doing this? And you keep saying, Well, we're serving a really important client, and that there's nothing wrong with that, but at a certain point, there might not be anything good with that. And still, for us to be able to say no to these really valued clients that we worked very hard to get to a point of total service for them, that has been something we've had to learn in the last few years, in particular, like we've had some that are just such a pull on the resources of the organization at a point you have no business servicing a small job. When you're at a certain scale, you really should be leaving that for the next batch of young firms and small firms to grow through. There's a just a natural sweet spot for every organization, on projects, and for us, it was the it took a while to see that that we just cannot service these things efficiently. Do them well, do them with joy, and ultimately, maybe actually to our detriment, to be servicing these things, not particularly well right

Rion Willard

43:43

on your website, there's a number of very interesting kind of research papers and studies and the economics of timber mass building or or, I think it was timber, timber structures, or some something in that kind of domain. Is research a active component of your of your business, and how do you ensure that you've got the resource to be able to do that? Or how do you allocate resource for people to be able to do research projects that perhaps don't have a direct revenue stream associated with them? For sure,

Speaker 1

44:22

and yes, it is an active part of the practice. It's something that I saw in my the practice that I was mentored in. It was a part of that firm's portfolio. But we totally candid with you. It's something that I think I'm one of those architects, and my partner might be as well, that has a certain attention to Deficit Disorder, right, that if a project is not being built, it may become less interesting. And so for for us, really the key for. Our research is our team is really important, and we've been blessed. We have some amazing team members within our organization that really have the temperament and the kind of cadence for research work it, yeah, some of the characteristics of people at public like we have a really thriving dungeons and Dragon cohort that works on d&d games in the evening like that didn't exist five years ago. Nobody was like that kind of bookishness or space for activities of the mind, I'll put it, and we have a group of people within the organization that enjoy data, that enjoy problem solving in a deep way, and also have seen that these kind of projects can actually push the bigger Project, the big architecture forward in a way that is really compelling. And so, yes, we do have a group, and I'm part of it. My part is part of it as well, that that are looking out for opportunities to help push various efforts forward analog. So it is an active part of of the practice. But it's not like a research department. It is not that I've seen that in other organizations where that, at times, can become a financial burden within the organization. So we're careful to ensure that it's it does not get in the way of more conventional modes of practice. It is a supplement to conventional modes of practice. So that it's we're not. There's no pressure to go out and find research and make it, make the projects happen. We find the projects generally come to us and or we may find them through, through the kind of RFP system and so on. And say, You know what this particular thing aligns well with what we're doing on this other project, and we find the fit and we go for it. Ultimately, you research is best, I think, done if you've already got that expertise through work that you're doing, or it's a natural a natural step to something that would improve what you're doing,

Rion Willard

47:28

I guess, as well, with some of the studies that when you get to do, they become marketing collateral, in a sense, and they're things that you're able to kind of establish thought leadership around and drive other conversations and start other conversations with prospective clients. And yeah,

Speaker 1

47:47

yeah, it definitely does that. It's part of conversations start, whether it's by clients or maybe as a recruitment tool as well, by what are you doing that's different? What's within your organization that is a differentiator or a particular piece of expertise that you have, and obviously, published research is an easy tool to do that, and so that has been useful for us. Definitely on the recruitment side, team members, prospective team members, come to us, and they're aware of that research. And, you know, it's a bit of a litmus test if they've got the the appetite for that. And you know, with you can quickly through a few questions, discern whether they've actually digested the work or not. And then for on the the other part of the cost equation, the marketing side, it can be a an interest or an avenue for conversations with others that you might not otherwise know. So you know, did you did you know the following, or, you know, we've just been part of X, Y and Z, and that can obviously open a door.

Rion Willard

49:04

It's interesting that you mentioned a little bit about how it can become a recruitment tool, or it can play a role in kind of attracting the right team members, or it plays a role in kind of just being a qualifier for the kind of person who you might be taking on into the business, going from, you know, a couple of you, to a practice of 31. Of the biggest obstacles that many practices will face is exactly that hiring part and actually finding good talent. And then, once you found good talent, how do you stop them from leaving? What have been some of your strategies or insights, or, you know, what advice could you give to some of the the audience listening here of how to find talented people and how to make them stick around?

Speaker 1

49:51

Yeah, of course. I suppose for us, hiring people that are good at what you're not, I think is also. One I strive for. So that's the research department. You know they are, I didn't say it's a department, but the people that I've got within the organization that are interested in that kind of work, there's a space for them because they are able to carve out a piece of territory that's theirs, and the helping to retain them is to ensure that there is a both a reasonable opportunity for more research opportunities, any outreach from that, or any publicity or presentations or things like that. Those individuals involved in the studies are the ones that are doing that. So it's they're like many projects, right? They have a short design or a short kind of production phase, presentation phase, and then an after phase. And what's interesting about them is they can be quite visible. They can be generate quite a lot of interest from media and so on. And so it's a tremendously rewarding thing for somebody in the kind of early part of their career to have that under their belt. So it is a compelling thing, and it's been recently, we've just had a study we did on an exit strategy, single stair exiting in British Columbia, which was as of August 2024 was adopted by the British Columbia building code, and is part of code now. It is something that we heard of that is actually manifest now in code and full circle, on Tuesday, I took my first phone call from somebody who heard my team on the radio and said, You guys know all about this. I've got a building that I've got a project that I want to do this on. Can you get me a proposal like on Wednesday. So it really has come full circle on that one, which is super amazing. And that started with a tiny little study from British Columbia Housing Corporation. And it was, it really was a small, little modest effort at the beginning. And there are many people around these kind of projects. So there is all kinds of important other authors and experts and all that kind of stuff. But we were, we were part of that solution. So it's, it's tremendously rewarding for for somebody who runs an organization that's part of that, tremendously rewarding for my team members, and it's going to have real positive change in the industry, so that's a good thing.

Rion Willard

52:23

Yeah, very cool. I think that's really a good place for us to conclude the conversation here. I feel like I could sit and speak with you for another for another couple of hours. But thank you so much for sharing your insights here and some of your experience and the way that you've built public architecture with your other principals and the team. It's been really fantastic to hear your story. So thanks.

Speaker 1

52:53

Yeah, I'm a student of the show. I enjoy your work a lot, so keep it up and good talking to you, and we'll get a chance to talk again.

Rion Willard

53:00

Appreciate it. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

53:01

Take it easy,

Rion Willard

53:02

and that's a wrap. Hey,

Speaker 2

53:04

Enoch Sears here, and I have a request, since you are a listener here, for the Business of Architecture podcast, Ryan and I, we love putting this podcast together. We love sharing information as much as we can glean from all the other industries that we're a part of, to bring it back to empower you as an architect and a designer. One thing that helps us in our mission is the growth of this podcast, simply because it helps other architects stand for more their value spreads the business information that we're sharing to empower architects together so architects, designers, engineers, can really step into their greatness, whatever that looks like for each individual. And so here my my simple ask is for you to join us and be part of our community by doing the following, heading over to iTunes and leaving a review of the podcast. And as an expression of our sincere thanks, we would like to give you a free CEU course that can get you one professional development unit, but more importantly, will give you a very solid and firm foundation on your journey to becoming a profitable and thriving architect. So here's the process for that. After you leave us a review, send an email to support@businessofarchitecture.com we're let us know the username that you use to leave the review, and we will send you that free training. On the training, you'll discover what 99% of architecture firm owners wished they would have known 20 years ago, and the other 1% well, they just didn't even know that. They didn't know head over to iTunes and leave us a review. Now

Rion Willard

54:47

this episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architecture's flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment and financial profit. If you want access for our free train. On how to do this, please visit smartpractice method.com or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how he might be able to help you, please follow the link in the information. Hello, listeners. We hope you're enjoying our show. We love bringing you these insightful conversations, but we couldn't do it without the support of our amazing sponsors. If you're a business owner or know someone who would be an excellent fit for our audience, we'd love to hear from you. Partnering with us means your brand will reach over 40,000 engaged listeners each month. Interested in becoming a sponsor, please send us an email at support@businessofarchitecture.com the views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation, promise, guarantee, pledge, warranty, contract, bond or commitment, except to help you be unstoppable. I.

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