The architects should elevate themselves knowing the skills of gluing everyone together.
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I'm your host, Ryan Willard. And today, it's an absolute privilege to converse with Paul South House, who is a fellow architect, the pioneering force behind Paul South house architects, he was one of the Business of Architecture smart practice clients. So I know him very, very well, we had the privilege of working with Paul for about a period of 12 months where they really kind of made an enormous effort to change things in their in their businesses, they were already a very high performing business, and they really took it to the next level. They're based in the historic and beautiful city of Oxford, where, where this interview was filmed. So I had a little day off and trundled down to Oxford. And Paul gave me a tour around the beautiful University grounds and all the medieval Gothic delights that exists there. And his firm has really carved a niche in Oxford conceptualizing and executing housing developments and modern residences across the southeast of England. And they really their work embodies a blend of innovation and tradition. But what's also very interesting is that Paul being the pioneering force that he is, they have also implemented and opened up two other separate businesses, not most commonly associated with architectural practice. So one is Lin Raistlin re spirit and the which is essentially a hospitality label. So he's the brains and co owner of the hospitality the label Lin race, which is situated also in the heart of Oxford, Jericho. And this brand is really fostering a rich culture of indulgence through its two distinguished venues. So the first one is Lin race spirit, which is for connoisseurs and creators alike, where there's a splendid array of spirits and cocktails, which is where we actually filmed the interview and I indulged in a very nice non alcoholic spirit. And the other venue is Pina, which is a more classical indulgence where one can savor nuances of fine wines, artisan cheeses, and charcuterie. So both places absolutely beautiful, stunning, stunning interiors, I highly recommend to go down and have a look. And in this conversation, Paul and I discuss the kind of lessons learned from opening up this hospitality brand, how the hospitality brand has started to influence poor South house architects how they've started to use it as a place to embed themselves into the community, how they can be facilitators and thought leaders have architectural conversation. In Jericho. It kind of anchors them into a commercial community as well of shop owners and business owners. They've got this very prominent front facing openness to, to Jericho now to Oxford City, which makes it very, very interesting. And of course, the lessons learned from working in hospitality, I think are very, very interesting. And one of the first things Paul starts to discuss is, you know, as an architect, when we're running an architect's practice, we make the mistake of trying to do everything ourselves. One of the beauties of running a business where perhaps you're, you're you know less about it, is that very quickly, you know, that you need to bring in experts, you know, you need to bring in other people who can operate various sides of these businesses. So, again, I've met and spoken with many architects or many design, housing design firms, for example, who aren't helmed by an architect and they tend to be very successful, because the entrepreneur at the top is very good at making sure that he puts people in place. And this is one of the one of the main kinds of conversations that Paul and I explore. Anyway, it was brilliant. Paul and his practice, very inspiring. Do too count that work and sit back, relax and enjoy a rock and roll architecture practice with Paul, South house. Paul, Welcome to the Business of Architecture. How are you?
I'm very well, Ryan, thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure.
Well, it's an absolute honor to be here in probably, I think one of the coolest venues, I've had the pleasure to do a podcast in my illustrious podcasting career. We're actually in a bar which you own and have designed and in there's another one, mine and Chicoutimi place up the road or actually underneath the Paul, South house architect's office, which is above here of which you are the the premiere of you've also been a client Business of Architecture.
That's right. You're trying to use my life. Vantage.
Fantastic. Glad for the better. Glad to hear. So absolute pleasure to have you on the on the show. And I guess the first question really is because a lot to talk about him and your you know, the what you've been doing at PSA has been, you know, amazing, you've got quite an incredible portfolio of work a lot of stuff here in Oxford housing, mixed use cultural buildings, civic buildings. And, of course, your other kind of entrepreneurial ventures here with Lynn race. And I think that's a really kind of interesting topic, as well, of like how, how an architect becomes a bar, and wine, you
know, for sure. And there's so many interesting takeaways from or owning and running a bar. Well, why
don't why don't we start there? Why don't we let you know that the the, it was September last year that you opened up this the spirits place? What was the thinking behind that? Well,
after COVID, it was a case of There are loads of shops in town centers, which are now empty, unfortunately. So there's an opportunity and I always had this vision of the architect elevating themselves and being in the, in the thick of it, but having been front facing rather than, you know, trying to avoid paying rates and all those sorts of things are trying to find the cheapest space on the fringe, which is, which is cool, because cool things happen on the fringe. But my instinct was post COVID that being in towns and cities was the future. And that's where we needed to grow and get better. So it's just chucking myself in the thick of it. That was the idea. The building came with a shopfront, right knowing what we know about design that you're an inner being a sort of high street location. He wants to be an active shopfront. I've seen a lot of offices in those locations, they've come quite blank. You don't know if you can go in you want to go in? There's some interesting models, but even as an architect, you don't go in? Yeah. So I opened an off license originally selling bottle cocktails because I was another product from COVID. They didn't exist before. You could buy premade cocktails throughout COVID I really learned that, you know, one of my other skills is making cocktails and then connecting with all the craft of spirits. It's just fascinating. So we opened off license in April 22. And quickly, everyone who came in was like, Wow, that's amazing. What a sneezing space. What are you? They didn't know what we were? They were saying? Well, it's clearly a bar. But no, we're not a bar. We're off license. And what are you selling? Well, that's a bit weird. Bottled cocktails was that I was kind of a bit ahead of it. No, I liked it. And but no one else knew what I was on about. So as commercially it was not successful. My son helped me he said 20 year old he helped me run it and man it and all those sorts of things in his sort of gap year. But so that kind of made sense. Because I could give it give him some some cash and we could leave his living room in that's all fine. But then it was a case. Well, this isn't really working financially. Why is that? So I did a I started opening on Friday and Saturday night on my own serving cocktails. And you know, you finish a long week on a Friday, and then you change or not change and become a bartender. Okay, so how I get maybe 10 customers a night but it's starting to generate something and then one night this this Colombian guy came in with some friends, some Mexican friends, they sat down, they were having a lovely time. And you turned out he was attending one of the colleges. He was a bit of an influence. And he made a call. And all of a sudden 30 People arrived. I was on my own. It was like 30 people It turned into a massive party of breaking all the laws that to do with licensing and closing and everything. And it was at that night I just thought okay, this is really not a good idea. Yeah, I'm closing and then I'm going to do it properly. So then they took around three or four months to re design them and use of things and we opened in September. So what
was it a as a response to COVID, like just being cooped up on feeling like you, you wanted to be part of revitalizing the the high street or what what were some of the things. So there's
something deep within me, that's who always had this idea of people need to get together, they need a space to do that sailing race spirit is about an informal space where you can meet people and chat, and connect and create. Whereas, you know, a lot of bars are very much focused on, you know, you're going for a date, or it's very commercial, and they're just trying to get the money out of you and make sales. So with the architectural practice paying the rent, it didn't really matter what it did, it could just be about what I wanted, and which was just to connect people. And it does, it does that the space is, is amazing. Acoustically, you can be sat next to someone, and you know, they're there, but it's also very dark, so you can't see them. You know, they're a blur in the background. And also you can't hear them. And it's really a beautiful intimate space where you, you can see the whole room and what the bartender is doing with the theater of the making the drinks, is all part of it. So and everyone, everyone loves it. So. So that's the bar has been incredibly successful. So
it was it was it was a kind of idea where you wanted it to be a standalone business and a different a separate business venture to PSA. Or did you see it as being a way to drive work to PSA or an opportunity to be able to showcase some design skills and enter into the hospitality sector? Perhaps?
Well, when I think back, it was purely there's a space to be used that needs to be active, right is the right business for that what's missing? Okay, I've got to drive to London to buy a bottle of Mezcal. That's a real pain. If let's focus on a bar, then I there's no other bar in Oxford that caters. So I need so why not create the one I? Yeah, that's simple as that. That's how it started? For sure. And then it's kind of molded over time of well, how actually, can that be a marketing tool? For the architectural practice? And how do they these work together? But more I think the biggest impact has just been on the how the practice functions and comparing the processes because of whilst you're making a cocktail and doing some drawings are very different. The processes are probably very similar in terms of getting the work doing the work well.
Well, this is interesting, as I was asking you earlier about what you know, what are some of the lessons that you've learned from running an architecture practice that have been appropriate for running the two the two bars, and vice versa? What do
you love the big, the biggest one which is really, really very simple is as a customer, you go into a bar, you know, you're going to a bar, and it's probably got some good review, therefore, you've got some indication of what you're going into, you've made a decision, you then look at a menu, and you can see the price. And then you order that item on the menu, it gets made for you. Individually, in a similar to creating a piece of architecture, it's a it's a bespoke design for someone and then gets delivered to you on a tray and then you drink it and have a married time. And then that gets taken away and washed up and all those sorts of things. But you know, ask for the bill, you pay your bill. And then the money comes out of your account as the customer, the next day it goes into into the company's account. And through that whole process is complete clarity of what someone's getting what they're paying for it, they paid it, there's an immediacy to it, it's arrived immediately. You think about architectures, the moment you draw a line in forgetting how you got to be drawing that line. It's probably eight weeks as a minimum before you get any money from that. Yeah, so that that's the biggest thing is that expectation. But also if you're in a bar, and someone says, Oh, can I have another drink? You say yes, that's 12 pounds, please. If someone in architecture says, Oh, can I have another drawing? You say, Oh, yeah, I'd love to do another drawing. You don't say oh, that's going to be 1000 pounds? Well, generally don't so. And there's a lot of lessons learned in that regard. And aqueous architects could just before you do the drawing, because we're so eager to please and love doing what we do. And this is what comes from having some professional bartenders, is that why not making that if you're paying for it? Yep. Simple. It's the same deal. Yeah.
Now there's I think that's what's very interesting about kind of any kind of retail experience or hospitality experience one, you know, you've created an environment which is very attractive for people to come into. There's a culture and the way that you interact acting with people, which is going to be part and parcel of the experience of the drink. And then the drink has got some hard metrics to it in terms of what you've got to charge at certain amount to cover your overheads, you've got to make some profit on the drink you've got to pay for it's
very, very precise. How will the drinks broken down that GPS? That's another term I learned gross profit, right? You got to know your GPS. So that's, that's what everyone talks about when and this is interesting.
When people working in a restaurant or culinary trades, they tend to be you know, they're putting on live events, they get very focused, and D in that very early level, anyone running that kind of business knows their numbers in terms of what they got to shift how much it's going to cost, how much they're gonna be paying for team members. Whereas in architecture, we tend to, we can get away with not doing any of that we know that that's not great from you know, when we've been talking about business architecture for long enough. What was what was some of the things that that actually became real real lessons in the business that you started to change, or
while responding to the time at the moment is, I think the idea of putting together an architectural fee proposal for a full service based on a percentage or a large fat number doesn't work people don't they want to know, an itemized list of what that is. So our record it, you know, obviously, everyone's recording their time, and it's actually then it's not just time it's being recorded. It's what the activity is. So I'd say you need everything we do now is we are recording every project activity as well as time. So then when someone does want something extra, we can note it and mark it and it does get paid for. For sure. Also, tightening up the menu, you know that the original scope of service, being extraordinarily precise about what is included and what is excluded. And as soon as there's a client arrive changed after X in after tender, then, okay, well, we're no down on our hours and activity what we were doing. Okay, well, you want motorised roof lights? Well, we already specified the roof lights, yeah. Your motorized ones, we could go through all the drawings and change that add it to the spec. Okay, it's taken four hours. It's noted down and they pay for it. So exactly like the Wii U seems really obvious. But there's so much that we in the ideas and architect beforehand, somebody Oh, this has a motorized reflex. Okay, no promo change the drawings, you don't realize how much time you just spent doing that. But now it's all kind of recorded and it's paid for. Yeah. And that is a direct result of what I've learned from running bars.
That's, that's, that's, that's so interesting. The other thing as well is that you're both the bars here, they're very specific. So there's a very clear theme as you go into each one. And even the fact that there's two separate spaces, one for spirits, and one for wine and charcuterie, which is, which is again, that in itself is not, you know, there's plenty of bars that don't do that, and would be more what we'd call like a generous bar. Yeah, like would be much more difficult to market
even though it was so pubs now serve cocktails. And they you aren't have coffee as well. So you go to a pub and have a cocktail. But when you go to a pub, you want a beer, it's about serving quickly getting through people, bartenders stuck there making cocktail which takes time, right? That it then it undermines what a pub is so absolutely is being ultra clear and specific about what we serve. And there's no real blending either. Although if you're in the wine bar, and you're, you do come to this, the spirit and cocktail bar and you really want to an old fashioned with a particular whiskey, we will make it and deliver across the road. No problem.
Right, right. Okay, so people didn't get there. Yeah, they can get there. No,
I do. You know, I've had people sit at the bar, because I do enjoy being on the shifts and, and talking to people. You know, if someone's a cup of tea, I'll make them a cup of tea so that they'll go to the office and make it. So
in terms of like, getting the bar set up? What were the who were the key personnel that you had to put into place. And we know that in an architecture practice, what's quite interesting is people wanting to start an architecture business and then do everything themselves. And here you've got situation where have you tried to do that, then? And you know, you're already running another business. Look,
look what happened. I was running a Friday and Saturday night as the owner and the bartender and it was a total disaster lost control completely. Yeah. And there was an immediate closing it was you know, so now as soon as I had
to start giving my free drinks, because easier to I've got I don't really know
what happened. It just was a huge party. Yeah. So now having a solid team who deliver the product is essential. I'm not part of that in any way. And that's another fascinating takeaways. As an architect, you almost expected to do the production. But in the buyer world, I'm not actively told not to do it because they just make a mess and cause confusion. So, why on earth architects try and run their own practices? I don't know, they should either have someone who manages them. Yeah. And they're that they're just a worker, or they just are the owner and get everyone else to do well,
I mean, this is why there's no shortage of entrepreneurs who have entered into the architectural space with no architectural skill sets whatsoever that have come with a business mindset. And then have created very profitable businesses. And they've hired you know, they hire lots of architects who do the work for them, as the architect will often easy to get trapped in, you know, there's, there's a comfort, obviously, because you're an architect, that's what I know how to do. And then if I put the energy into doing that, then surely that means it will be better. Yeah, that doesn't always
mean so. So what you learn a lot, I learned, I am an architect. So that is why I adore doing I don't wake up thinking about what I'm going to be billing, I'm just really happy to do what I'm doing. So there's a realization of that's what I am, I'm not a business. I am the business owner of the practice. But I'm not necessarily the best person to do the marketing or the admin, I, and I've come this taken a while to get to that realization, probably several, several years or decades even. But to now I have, I'm now solidly in production, because that's what I enjoy. I love doing the drawings, there's a percentage, probably 25% is getting the work, right. And then there's this marketing manager dealing with all of that side. And then there's still a lot of work to do and improving those things. But then the admin is delegating all of that activity away, because it doesn't earn any money, either. The admin side, it's critical, you're complying with everything you need to comply with.
Yeah. So how is your How was PSA structured? How many people you got working in team? And you know, in that 25% of your time winning work? What are the sort of activities that you do to bring into this
link? So how many hours you work, doesn't it? This is really tricky. So most people work 40 hours a week, I probably work a few more than that. And then work the bars on top of that. So it's a it's a changing. It's a changing model, I guess. But at the moment, we're seven, I'm have to make a recent decision to reduce that slightly due to changes in our workload and uncertainty around planning. And you know, the we're just not getting the project through the pipeline, everything is stuck in planning for eons is very, very tricky at the moment. I think the key key term for me is someone who is organized and is more a practice manager, but also an architect. They are the glue that sticks everything together, I just make mess and someone else is there to sort of tidy it up in central pull it into a nice order. So if you get into specifics, site design statements, you know, I used to think I could write a wonderful design statement. But now I know there's someone else who can do that better than me. It will look better, it'd be tidier or reads better, it will take longer. Yeah. And so it should do. But I can provide all the bits components to go in it. But yeah, so when
When did when did PSA start? How long? Have you guys been? So 2016 2016? Okay. And and when you first started out? What was the kind of impetus behind it? Did you have work previously lined up? Or was it as a reaction to something else? What was the what was the sort of starting blocks,
I tried to go into business with a good friend. And we the idea is we'd have a London practice and Oxford practice, right? And that we take over the world make the world a better place in that way. But I think we were naive and didn't have the correct agreements in place, then for money got in the way. We just agreed to not do that anymore. Because foremost, we're friends business second. So I just set up out of that started in the garage, and some hammers get people to come and work in a garage and even drive from London and work in a garage, which was great. And, and then we built a studio and that has built from there build studio in my garden. Right? That was great. Again, I suppose even building the studio is similar to the bars. I'm trying to carve my own space where there's no client or planning system. You know, you've circumnavigating all the rules of being independent. Exactly.
And what were the first kind of projects that you brought into the business and on what kind of strategy or structure have you pursued in in kind of growing? So
in the early days, it's always existing clients. Always the network with that I have all works come from my own network, right? I've now discovered you need a big network if you've got lots of staff and that's, that's a challenge in itself, making sure you're getting out there. But it's very much. It is repeat, work repeat clients. And it's doing, not necessarily what we want to be doing. But it's getting what we're given in a sense. And it's only recently, I've understood my own value in and actually they'll say no to someone, no, no, we're not doing that job, or we aren't, we will do it. But it's double what you want to pay. Therefore, there's another benefit. And the owner, we've lost for the first time we have lost work because of we're not prepared to do that. We want to be doing something else, we want to carve out what we're doing. Yeah. Standing
standing your ground in terms of, you know, it's not going to be a fit if they're not willing to pay you what you want to be paid. And if it's not a fit in terms of values, and
no, we could we could lower the fees. And we could make it work and try and be more efficient. But the reality is, will we be proud of that work that we've done? It's not going to be to the quality through rushing it. So know that it's not a fit Simple, isn't it?
Yeah. What for you? What are the sorts of things that make a project not a fit,
I guess, it's what are so focused on homes and housing, I love the I just I really struggled with the fact that the way everything's set up at the moment, while value of a home is linked to the whole economy, and everyone's borrowing money from homes to make it all work. And there's a lot of people who can't afford to buy a home or there's so so ridiculously expensive now. And then they're working really hard and earning money, and they just can't use it to their best advantage. So I'd love to be able to solve that. But first of all, if I if I get if I'm an expert in gaining planning consent and building homes for developers, then I can then shift that to then apply to building an Arkansas affordable home. It's just it's low cost housing or some form of entry level housing. Does that answer your question? Yeah,
yeah. And well, so those, those are the kinds of projects that you're doing now. But in terms of like, when you say no, to a client, what is okay, what do they need? What are the red flags for you? What
Okay, so is the outcome? Are we gonna be proud of it? Are we ready? Are we do want to put that does it fit within what we're now doing? Does it even fit with the linear race aesthetic, when and PSA is going to mold to take on the LIN race, or we could look through the linear race lens. So what you see here, in this space is more of the style at which we will approach things in the future. So are we gonna be proud of it? Okay, well, if we're gonna be proud of it, are we gonna get paid handsomely for it for our time and expertise. So, if we're not, so the red flag is if the fees too low, you're not valued you're doing. And if the client wants too much input, really, in terms of them, molding or changing the outcome. Because if they're, if they're investing in you, they want whatever you want
this this is interesting is like how you structure this kind of relationship with with clients, right? And there's one kind of approach where you become totally subservient to the client, or you're doing everything that they want you to do. And then now, for many architects, that's just not a fulfilling thing to be doing. And also, it's not actually that profitable, because now you're just at all, and the client doesn't value anything, because they aren't, because they literally will come and they will say, well, here's what we want, you need you just do the drawings, for sure. And then it's kind of like, well, you know, why are you even hiring, why even hiring an architect. And then there's the balance, you know, the the skill, if you like, of being able to be more directive with the client to lead them down the journey of perhaps they might give them they might be able to invest more money, more money, more money into the project more money into what your services, how do you, how do you balance that? And what what kind of skills do you employ?
I think there's been a big shift actually, in you that you talked about money, because if people are investing money in their property, so whilst I say it's terrible, there's always money and economies linked to values. The other side is that people see it as a vehicle, and we're increasingly getting some of the smaller projects of it than the larger ones is like, well, if I spend this much, I'm gonna live in it for 10 years. I enjoy it. I'm investing and paying that off and then I've got the capital increase in that in the future. So it's also justifying people investing in Holmes. Yeah. But then yeah, then it's just I guess it's all fueling the same thing. I told you, whilst you were talking, just maybe thinking about the role of the architect, and how an architect's able to navigate between a bricklayer Who wants some information is probably swearing a lot about the architect's drawings, probably not following them and just swearing at them anyway. And then you're dealing with the high end client who wants to be quite, they're very, they can pick and make a decision. They know what they want, in a sense. And then everyone in between all the consultants that planet and how, yeah, that's a skill that an architect doesn't necessarily feel they have, there's something that's linked to the bars is that all of a sudden, those transferable skills to go out into the community, I guess, because I'm now now I'm a business owner with a front face. People come to me or I go to them and involved in helping the area with its signage, for example. And then we can really get put together a presentation, all those things. So there's just under the sun about understanding value, which has come out through owning and running the bars as not just being the practice that some people engage with. Yeah. So
in that's again, that's, that's interesting, like the the role of the architect, being someone who needs to be able to negotiate and navigate a large group of people. And usually, the architectural training is very kind of, you know, you spend seven years at university you're doing a project, which has no interaction with any other human beings are toxic for your tutor, really, you know, you speculate about what how people might behave, and you spend, spend a lot of time speculating how things are going to help, things might happen. And then as soon as you come into the real world of doing architecture, you are being pulled in all of these different directions. And it can be, you know, for a lot of people, it's just kind of either you collapse, and you're just kind of ego, just do what you do need to do, or find a way to be able to choreograph it all and do it and do it well. And I can imagine, you know, being here in the in the bar, that there's again, there's that more of that there's more immediacy,
what it is, instead of people know is, you know, someone's waiting an extra minute they you know, that way to explain it, and therefore, it's the same that choreography that that performance is all performance. Yeah, it's days later Have
you have you used the bars to, you know, invite planners in, for example, or, or clients or developers and had like roundtable talks, or, you know, even invite other types of clients where they come in, they have some wine drinks, and then you can have a kind of informal strategic conversation about something. Well,
first thing is like so both of us have non alcoholic varieties, and we sell an awful lot of non alcoholic drinks. So it's not just about alcohol and binge drinking, as we're enjoying right here is these non alcoholic drinks. So they doesn't alcohol fueling everything.
It's not necessarily
your favorite coffee, you know, which is the wine bar its expression in vino, Veritas so. So in wine, there is truth. And there's a lovely idea that if you're drunk, and you make a decision, review that decision when you're sober, equally, if you make a decision when you're sober. And then review that decision. So now we have we have a number of type meetings, is in terms of the marketing, if you've got a practice, you settled your income for a coffee, invite someone or a new client to income for a coffee, where do you meet is quite novel, or unique or special or not say novel, because novel ways out is special to be able to invite someone for a drink in your venue. It's an immediate conversation starter. Yeah. As well as that we're able to we also make our own cocktails and bottle cocktails so we can make a cocktail in a bag and deliver it. So for example, I can go I go and just arrive at someone's it's like a salesman, isn't it? You arrive at someone's office that you want to be working with or potential client and so I'm just delivering this cocktail telling you about what we're doing. And then I'll come in and have a cup of tea or have a kitchen you're sat there for two hours. Yeah, creating that relationship. So it's, it's a great I don't know how you else you do it. Otherwise you just turn up say I'm an architect from down the road and fancy having a chat. It's just not gonna go anywhere. So it's a it's a great I
guess the other thing here and when I'm when I've interviewed other practices, who have done similar sorts of things with like restaurants that attach to their practices, you're now really present and part of the community in a very different way. Is it just an architect's crap? Just because you could, as an architect, practice, stay, you know, upstairs with a title plaque on the window, no one knows you're there. And you know, you're you're impacting the city and the area of living, but no one really knows about you. Whereas here now you're part of a very different community, your front facing, people are walking past your, you're actually part of the fabric,
I know for sure, that's a really, really important, that's the whole, the architects should elevate themselves, knowing the skills of gluing everyone together, yeah, be accountable and get out there and, and be part of everything that's happening, for sure. And that every business along the streets is like that, you know, they're very front facing and everyone knows that. So then that that builds a your own little business community that and and then you have an influence on what's happening in the area, which is also fascinating. But then I went further as well, and then created social events on as well, separate to both businesses, again, trying to bring the creative community together, because there's not a focus on that. And then then then that's connecting people. So she had this obsession with connecting people, basically.
So tell me a little bit about the where we are now because we're in Jericho, this very beautiful part of of Oxford, and I know that's a very important part for for you and actually being and you've done a lot of work here, just across the road is one of your one of your projects, which has got how many units? Did you say that? 17 1717 units? So quite significant bits of of work? What does What does Jericho mean to you as a as a business? And is it somewhere? Is it an area where you focus a lot of energy into like winning work and becoming the architect of the town or?
No, I think Turkey is just a lovely place to be it's built to human scale, which is a term I borrowed from Philip Pullman. It's not that old Jericho, it's a sort of a city centre suburb of Oxford Oxford is, is controlled by the colleges, there's no private space, and it's all very beautiful. And either stone buildings, which you can't get into, or it's shops, which you don't want to go to. So just a stone's throw away from that is Jericho as independent businesses. I think it's, it's arrived with the Oxford University Press in the canal, which brought coal to print books. And then from that the grid pattern of little terraced houses, which is Jericho is that, you know, they were the workers that worked for the press, then the pressed of him becomes digital voice or thing that sold and you've got an amazing bunch of people basically, who are really quite active, very creative. And then love engaging with the independent businesses here. So in terms of focusing work here, so I'm really lucky to work with one of the largest landlords of the city. And that's relationship I've had for two decades. They are much of the housing stock is in Jericho, because they had no own foundry here. But it's the same time you got to be careful with what you do, or we'd rather work outside of Jericho, you know, have an influence on what happens here and help others. So for example, that the wine bar was an accident. It wasn't there was no intent this when I woke up on the first January 2023. So open a wine bar. I was went over, it was the Joker called the Joker grill. I went across and had dinner because no one ever went there. So I thought I'd just go there. So I went had dinner night and the food was great. But it just there's something wrong with the atmosphere that lighting but I suppose it just wasn't. It wasn't Jerrica it wasn't good enough. Yeah. So I had a meeting with the owner in in spirit. And I was very impeccable in my approach. And I was not, you know, made sure I was being not putting him down and saying short, nasty or saying look, this could be better, you know, we could we can help us. Okay, well, let me talk and talk and talk. He said, Well, he said, well, one. Unfortunately, it's not a really a financial success. I'm closing next week. I said, Okay, well, you could have told me told me that when we started and then I was then with my bar manager it turned into Okay, well, it's an opportunity what what does, what could this be? What could this face be? What could we do? Yeah. And then all of a sudden, we're then in business with him and turned it round and in weeks really created an amazing wine bar,
which so that's really interesting, cuz it's, again, it's the same kind of premise for here where you've identified this is But the space needs to be for the area. And that's a really architectural proposition. It's also a very entrepreneurial one, where you're finding something, it's got a problem. And here's a solution for it, here's how it can, how it can be turned into something that can make some money, and also be an asset to the area and not
require planning consent and get stuck in the system for a year. Yeah. And
so this idea of kind of identifying spaces and then proposing a usage for them. And when you've done it, you've actually put you put your own money into it and said, I'm going to make it work. Have you done that as a strategy with other investors or developers?
That's an interesting idea that I've thought about it more in a charitable way. Right? For example, there's a whole lot of buildings near the station, the train station, which are not used and not gonna be used for next three years, because one of the colleges bought more than they're redeveloping it, they don't want to do. So I've been forming or trying to form a link with the university saying, what how can we can we use these spaces for three years, you get some, in a sense, custodians of the space. So they're looked after. But why can't there be some artists studios, because there's crying for space. And everyone month, as I said, we meet as a group of creatives, and it's to various different arts, visual arts and, and that everyone is they just want the same space. There's no space in the city, that sort of studio space, which is why we have an artist in residence in the basement because he didn't have a studio really wanted it. And it's changed his life having us space to work from and it's actually improved his health as well. So but I thought your idea there of approaching developers of here's this, what can we do? I guess that is happening. Because in a sense, with the completion, St. Paul's house was a building opposite 17 Flats. We were able to then one thing we did river to their registered social landlord locks place. Because we have a wine bar who's particularly want to come for a drink, we show you building tour of this finished building. That's immediately. You're then talking. Yeah. And then we're still on the rooftop. And so we own. We own that little bit down there, don't we? So well, can we make that better? Is there a feasibility study to go on? So yeah, right. From that we've decided to create work on feasibility. So it's for things that no one's even thought of? Right? You are right. Yeah. So essentially,
this is actually starting to kind of create your own opportunities, for sure. or facilitate them. Yeah. Very cool. Very interesting, please.
Yeah. But it's so linked, you've got to be embedded in the place to do that. Yeah. Well, yeah.
The other thing I was saying is, you know, you've found planning really difficult over the last, I mean, this is something, you know, over COVID, what we were hearing what's happening in planning, you know, the delays that were going on, and as
far as fine during COVID Is the post COVID. Right? I'm not sure if much if the planning authorities and their consultants are going back in their offices, or they still work from home, but I just can't. Is this like you asked for someone's comment on something? And they invariably comment, you provide the additional information? You send it back to them, and then they have more comments. Yeah. And then you, you provide that information, you've got nine consultants, you're trying to coordinate this information with a huge cast? Is it? Is it? Is
it a failure of kind of being under resourced in the pain departments? Or is it this particular area in Oxford, where everything's kind of I had this image that everything's medieval and historic, and you're always next door to, I
think, is a lack of connection, personal connection between people. As soon as you get in a room, you can swap these things out and get him getting a meeting in a room with the planners now is very difficult. It's going to be on Zoom, and so you're on Zoom. It's very difficult to negotiate anything. Yeah. Yeah, so the building opposite again, though, the planners, we're going to refuse that. Like I said, No, let's get in a room and meet and fortunately, in the period, somewhere between all the COVID things, we were able to meet in a room and people were still think still of the mind. We need to meet in person. And I was able to sit with the conservation officer and sketch stuff out with them. And we agreed a way forward. I came out of that meeting with a really clear direction, worked on it, sent it back and said, Oh, that's great. Yeah, put that in. We will approve it. But now it's like put it in, bet it back put it in better assist on never ending game.
Yeah. And it's always always kind of formalized as well and as to go through. It's another 21 days. Do you ever do you ever think Well, we'll see. The parts of the planning department privatized?
Would that be a good idea already employing many private practice on a to offload an outsource? I turn over this is funny, isn't it? If you think was planning as a whole, everything that was done before the planning system, I'm sure I don't know what the mechanisms were for the Victorians, etc. But they didn't build in the floodplain. They responded, they built incredibly incredible buildings with detail and, okay, they didn't understand the thermal performance or didn't need to at the time, but you know, I, I probably just get rid of the system. I get rid of politicians. You know, if businesses could run the city, I'm sure I'm sure mechanisms to do it, it would be doing it more effectively. Yeah. Brilliant. So yeah, we could privatize everything. So what's your plan
for the rest of this year and what you're looking forward to in 2024?
So what's left this year? I've got to try not to start a new business. That's, I've already got ideas.
So what are some of the ideas that okay, one of
one, so the artisan residence downstairs that's becoming a basement parlor. So the bar has been extended downstairs, make sure we're using the building to its fullest with such demand. On a Friday and Saturday, we just need that extra capacity in the back. So that that will happen that will get reused. It will be very exciting. I think some of those hard deadlines as soon as there's a deadline, I can then work towards something when there's nothing concrete to work towards, like get a bit lost. Yeah. So 24 Good question. The thing is something what are events? Something? I don't know? Yeah. Involve connecting people, I'm sure.
I love it. I mean, I love I love what you've done here. And I love the kind of the ethos of it. And it very much reflects your, your personality and your ability to be able to communicate and, and connect and build community.
Thank you. I'd love making as well. That's why if I could do something more, I'd make stuff make more stuff. So yeah, build the bars. Yeah, I'd love working with the builders or the electrician and making it happen. In practice, we should do that more. As architects, we should just go to site and make stuff.
Brilliant. I think it's a good place for us to conclude. Thank you. Right. Thank you very much, Paul. And that's a wrap. And one more thing. If you haven't already, please do head on over to iTunes or Spotify. And leave us a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. And we'd love to get your feedback. And we'd love to hear what it is that you'd like to see more of and what you love about the show already. Have
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