Embracing the Complexity of Inclusive Education with Aaron Lanou

4:28PM Oct 24, 2024

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Keywords:

World Series prediction

inclusive education

Papi Burke

children's books

Dodgers sweep

Yankees offense

high scoring games

absent dad

learning questions

inclusive practices

teacher training

student support

inclusive mindset

classroom challenges

inclusive settings

Tim, Hey friends. My name is Tim Villegas from the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education, and you are listening to or watching, think inclusive, our podcast that features conversations with people doing the work of inclusion in the real world. Now, if you're watching on YouTube, you will notice that I am wearing my Los Angeles Dodgers Jersey, and I have a friend with me, my friend and neighbor. His name is Kelvin Jimenez, and as you can see, his jersey, his favorite team is the Yankees. That's

right. That's right.

Um, it is World Series week. The World Series starts on Friday versus the Los Angeles staunch Dodgers and the New York Yankees. And I thought it would be fun to have Kelvin come over and give us his World Series prediction. So Kelvin,

what do you think? Yeah, we

got, yeah, yeah, 4567,

games. What do we got? I

think this world series is going to be epic. There's a lot of things going on. There's a big narrative, but if you had to ask me, I would say Yankees and six.

Okay, okay. I

like that. I like that. Um, I personally think, well, I'm gonna pick the Dodgers. Obviously, I think it's going to be Dodgers and seven. And I think it's going to be really close actually. I think there's going to be a lot of runs scored, man, like previous World Series, it's all about the pitching matchups. I think both the Yankees and the Dodgers offenses are just ridiculous. So I think we may end up having some high scoring games, and it's always fun when that happens, we

actually agree on something. Okay,

okay, Kelvin

may disagree on who's actually gonna win the World Series, but the other, the other reason I wanted Kelvin to come by and say hi was about something that you're involved with, and tell us about your hat. Oh, my hat. So

my hat is a concept, concept that I created called papi Burke, and it's Spanish. The English translation is Daddy y papi Bucha basically came about because I wanted to encourage kids on asking questions. One of the best ways that kids learn is by asking questions. So I wanted to make sure that kids feel comfortable asking as many questions as possible so they can get as much knowledge as possible. But where's the root cause of that come from? The root cause of that come from? Because when I was growing up, I have what most people would consider an absent dad, and what that means is dad was there, but he really wasn't. And so I never had a male figure to ask questions to. So it's a lot of things that I grew up wanting to know or needing an answer to that I didn't have it to. So I wanted to make sure that I passed that forward and encourage kids to ask questions and or kids that were growing up like me to let them know. Hey, it's okay to ask questions and get it from a different source, as long as you get the hairsher until you're

looking for Awesome, awesome. And so with poppy 4k you have some children's books, right?

Yes, I'm on my third children's book sources series. One of them, for example, is learning about culture. The other one is learning about general things, and then it's broken into different terms. That way the questions are more related to those terms. So you may get mixed questions in all the books, but essentially, they try to follow what the term is for that

book, okay? And people can find those, like on Amazon,

um, you can find it on Poppy porque.com

and you can find the first book on Barnes and Noble. The way that works is, the more demand there is, the more they're willing to pick it

up. Gotcha,

okay? All right, we

will. You go ahead and just give me all those links, and we'll put those in the chat absolutely for everyone who's interested in checking out Poppy poor K. All right, so this week's episode is with our guest, Aaron lanew. He's from New York, and he is an inclusive education consultant, and actually, he gave his World Series prediction.

My World Series prediction, I think the Dodgers are gonna sweep the Yankees. I don't think the Yankees stand a chance. I mean, maybe I might be just a little bit biased in this situation, but I'm calling it for the Dodgers.

Well, I think Aaron and I agree on one thing.

Oh, what a New Yorker. New Yorker being the Dodgers tracker. Oh,

I almost forgot to tell you about our incredible sponsor for this season. IX. Excel IXL is a teaching and learning online platform designed for kindergarten through 12th grade. School districts all across the country use it to track and measure progress of their students. It's customizable, and it provides a lot of different resources for learner variability. If that sounds interesting to you, learn more at I excel.com/inclusive, again, that's ixl.com/inclusive Okay. When we come back, my conversation with Aaron lanew, see you on the other side.

Erin lane, welcome to the think inclusive podcast.

Thanks so much. Tim, really happy to be here with

you. Aaron. Okay, so we're at video where this is video, and so for those of you watching on YouTube, you can see Aaron's background, and it looks like you'd have something as a dance floor.

Oh,

back there.

Yeah, the whole phrase says, Don't you know it's your dance floor. It's it's a line from a feminist punk band that I love, and my husband made this little garland banner for me when I moved into this office.

Oh my gosh, that's amazing. What band is that?

The Tigra, a secret. No, I don't know. I've heard from earlier podcasts that you are an indie rock fan.

I am an indie rock fan. Yeah, yeah, I am. So I thought I might, I thought I might have done that, but we'll have to share, we'll have to share track later. Yeah, very good. Awesome. Aaron, you're a former, you're a former classroom teacher, if what I remember, yes, and usually as classroom teachers, especially those who work with kids receiving special education services, inclusion is important to them, and I'm wondering, why is it important to you?

Yeah, I've been in the education world for about 20 years now, a little more than and I think I've just come to see inclusive education as just, like, simply right, like, it's just the right way to do things, just like correct way. It's the just way, the fair way to do things. And you know, the way I see it now is, like, it's almost absurd, the way we actually do things typically, right? Like, we have these systems set up that evaluate kids in a very particular way, and someone who doesn't know the child all that well makes some determination about that child's ability, and from that, comes up with a setting that that child is supposed to learn best in. And oftentimes, the child doesn't have any say in that. All too often, the families don't have much say in that. And there's also not that much evidence that that setting is actually going to benefit that child, you know, learning, wise, social, emotionally in the long run, that system just seems kind of bizarre and wrong to me when you kind of think about it this way and and though this might feel pie in the sky, I feel like what should happen is it's like as simple as like, young person, hello, you live in this neighborhood, and this is your school. It's where all your friends go and all your neighborhoods go. So welcome to the school you go here, like everyone else does, no matter what. And our whole job is to, like, know you and figure you out, and figure out what you need to learn best, and you're gonna get a great education here, along with all of your people in your community. That's sort of just like logical, you know. And I think just for many, many reasons, the history of how we've done education, special education, the sort of, you know, political aspects of it, ways that people in various different communities and identity groups have been excluded, historically and continually. We know that's not actually what happens, but it like, at its core, it just feels like, Well, isn't that? Isn't that how it should just go? And I only it seems so simple that I also recognize it's a lot harder than that. I also recognize that my take on it is based on, you know, my experience, people I've been exposed to and worked with, and people whose work I've read and, you know, disabled advocates who I've learned so much from, and I know that not everyone's on that path and had the same exposure to the same people and same ideas, and there are really just entrenched systems that we're working sort of against. Although I don't like to frame things in sort of battle metaphors, it is kind of true oftentimes. So. So it's like, it's simple, and yet I get that it's not simple. It should be this way, and I see why it's not. And I think the work that you do and we do is just about finding the ways to get closer to that, like, simple reality. Yeah,

I like what you said about, like, you know, the ways to get there. Because I think that sometimes we can get into the mindset that like our way is the only way and the right way, and certainly I think that there are better ways right and I'll just give you a quick example, like slow, methodical, purposeful, intentional planning of of like transitioning from segregated classrooms to inclusive classrooms, I think is better than snapping our fingers and saying, okay, everyone's in general, at the whole school or district, and we're just going to figure it out. Okay, like, I think one's better than the other, yeah, but if you're, but if you are, if you've made the commitment to be, like, we're going to make it work, then, you know, kudos to you, right? Yeah, yeah,

no, that's, that's a really, that's a good I appreciate in our earlier conversations too. You've always dug into the sort of, like, realities and nuance and challenges of this. And though we like to snap our fingers, sometimes, I talk about waving a magic wand and just like, having the systems set up and the people where they should be to just like, make this a reality for people. We know that the reality is, teachers need training. Schools need resources. You know, people need to be brought up to speed. We need to sort of like, have a shared understanding of this work and what it's about and a shared commitment. And that doesn't happen overnight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I have, like, I have yet to really talk with an educator who, once like, once like, you explain, hey, what we're talking about, and I'm just, I'm looping everyone in as far as inclusion advocates, right? One, like, when we're talking about, like, inclusive education. We're not talking about just putting kids with and without disabilities in the same classroom 100% of the time no matter what. And that's what we mean with inclusion. Like that is not what I mean. Yeah. You know, if there isn't any discussion about support or what happens if a child is having a difficult time in a general education environment, what do we do then, right? Yeah, so there's, like, all of these questions. It doesn't mean that we don't plan for 100% but there's there's going to be because of the nature that everyone is different, right? And you're going to meet people in different ways, a fully inclusive system plans for 100% but it doesn't always mean that you're going to get there. But it's not the kids fault. It's, it's the adults, right?

We haven't figured it out yet, yeah, yeah, and we're sorry, children, young people, yes, we should have, we should have it really is. And I think I yeah, I, I feel like, I, let's see I'm 45 I feel like I've gotten to a point in my life where everything is about holding conflicting ideas simultaneously in my head at the same time. And I heard people talk about that as like a sign of maturity. I hope it is, but the it is, it's challenging, it's next to impossible, but we have to hold in our minds at the same time, this must happen inclusion, inclusive settings, truly inclusive settings, need to happen for all kids all the time, like, right away, they deserve it, and people are ready for it. Like it won't work in the way that you describe. It won't we can't snap our fingers. It's not going to happen overnight, and that's for a whole host of reasons that we in order to make that work, we need to truly understand, to work with and work through to get closer to that reality. And I think it's it is sometimes really hard to reconcile those two different things that I feel very equally very strongly about, like, you know, very well meaning, smart, hard working teachers who aren't super inclusively minded and and, you know, don't, maybe teach in an inclusive setting, or do and don't do it that well, like, are working really hard and are in a profession that's not respected, and are suffering burnout and having to deal with a. Uh, the fallout from uh, COVID, both for their students and themselves and their families. Like, that's very hard. That's very hard, and I have incredible, um, compassion and patience and understanding for people who, like, don't just agree with everything I say, but, but, but, like, want to do the right thing. Wanted to write by kids, and, like I said, haven't been exposed to things I've been exposed to. Got the training. I've been lucky enough to, you know, to receive, been able to collaborate with the amazing people. I've been able to collaborate that's gotten me, personally, to this spot where this is what I think is important. And I think years ago, in a program I worked in, we had a theme of our year. And the theme was, start from where they're at. And we had a little one pager that we distributed to all these, you know, hundreds and hundreds of teachers start from where they at, they're at. It's not about, you know, we're getting all these kids to this place. It's like, okay, we want to support children with organization and executive functioning skills. What are they currently able to do? Let's start there and get them to the next step. You know, we want to support autistic students social development. Where are they? Now? Let's really understand it and in a very respectful way. Let's see what it takes to get to the next step. And I think the same mindset and same sort of approach has to be true of people who are in a position to be able to support teachers in this work start from where they're at. Everyone's at a different place. Let's move the needle as much as we can in a like, authentic, helpful, practical way, because we don't just get to have 144, minute conversations with teachers leave and then everything is magical and and unicorns and rainbows and inclusively beautiful leave their classroom. So it takes time and patience and compassion and understanding and dedication and all those things. Oh,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Why would we, why would we, like, encourage teachers to,

you know,

have relationships with students and and, like, understand where the students are coming from, right? And that kind of, like, start where start where they are. Why would we encourage teachers to do that for their students, but as leaders and coaches, not do the same thing for teachers, right? Yeah, yeah.

It's, it's, it's hard when you hold yourself to the expectation that you walk the walk of what you're asking of others, it's, yeah, it's hard, it's hard to live that. But I think, you know, people who are really committed to this work, I think hold themselves to that standard. Absolutely,

I'm wondering, as you're thinking about, you know, how inclusion actually impacts learners? If you have any stories or thoughts that come to mind, yeah,

yeah. I, um, I A lot of times, when I talk about inclusive practice, I have this little sort of keynote animated video thing I've developed that I don't think translates as well just purely audio, but I'll do my best to sort of describe it that sort of frames the way I think about it. And that's, you know, sort of simply as think about learning as climbing a mountain. All people have to do it. It's hard work to climb a mountain. It's got to be learning is just hard. It's supposed to be hard, but the way we've designed school, kids don't just have to climb the mountain of learning. They have to climb the mountain of learning that we've like, thrown all these boulders on top of and the boulders are things like, hey, in order to learn, let's say math, you also have to sit still for 45 minutes at a time. That's not like required of learning. That's like in the way we've designed school. In order to learn math, you've got to listen to and attend to and retain a lot of verbal information that I'm giving that's not required for learning. That's just how we do school, right? And there's a lot of those things we just the way we've set up the system of schooling requires things that aren't expected of actual learning, but are expected, you expected the kids to do well in school the way we made it right. And so each of those things, but sit still, listen to me, attend, produce, written work, are all these, like boulders or barriers we throw in kids pass on their climb up this right learning mountain and and the thing is, it's different. Kids come to the base of that mountain, as I say it, with different tools in their packs, just naturally, because humans are different from one another. And some kids come to the base of the mountain with like pickaxes and shovels and stuff that are really good for getting over that boulder. This is still boulder. No problem. I got it now I can learn the math in school the way you want me to, and other kids come to that mountain with other tools that are great tools, like screwdrivers, which is a great, very handy tool. I installed am dimmer switch in my in my apartment the other day I thought it was gonna elect. Keep myself and burn out the building, and I didn't. Screwdriver is a great tool kids might have, like a snorkel. Snorkel is a great tool. It just doesn't help you when you're climbing a mountain trying to get over a boulder, right? And so we don't value those strengths that kids bring to school. We value only certain subset of strengths that kids bring to school. And so getting to inclusive practice, like, the way I think about it is basically like weaving a net of support that's over the mountain. So when these boulders come, like, crashing down on top of the mountain, it catches at least most of the stuff that's going to get in kids way and impede their journey. So like, if sitting still is an expectation. Like, yeah, we have lots of desks and chairs, and they're not well designed, but we can make movement breaks just normal practice in our classroom. We can incorporate body movement to the extent that kids are able to into lessons like meaningfully, right? And if we expect kids to listen a lot 10 remember information. We can also write directions on the board. We can have visual supports. We can create broken down checklists for kids. So like, there are things we can do practices we can do that, like minimize the impact of these unnecessary barriers that we've just created in the way we've designed school. And so the way I like to talk about that is that, like, those things are going to be perfect, like, the thing that a snorkel kid needs to be successful, like, without the written directions, without the movement break, not going to do well in math with those things. They got it. But there's going to be some other kids you weren't even thinking about, weren't even planning for supporting, who also really like to have those written directions and like to have those movement breaks and these supports can benefit everybody, but they're not going to hurt anybody, and they're not a huge lift. They're not asking teachers to do a whole lot of extra work oftentimes, right? And so framing inclusive practice that way, I've, I've, I've seen a lot of examples of you know, when you're a special ed teacher in a co taught classroom and you're navigating having an individualized support for a kid, they're in fifth grade, they're 1011, years old, they're very aware of who's sitting next to them and what people are getting, and you respectfully give one or two kids a graphic organizer that someone else doesn't have a way to reduce the stigma, not seem like it's a weird thing or bad thing or wrong thing, is to make it available to anyone. And I've even had kids look at it. Not why is that kid getting that paper, but like, Oh, that looks helpful. Can I have that too? I think the answer is yes. You can. You could absolutely have that too. I wasn't even thinking that a view specifically when I designed this thing. But, yeah, absolutely. Do you think this is going to help you organize your essay? Do it? Have at it? And so I think, just like certain practices that we think of as being tailored for individual students, have the potential to benefit lots of students and also contribute to like, a a tone, a ethos, in a classroom where, like, we all get different things, need different things, get what we need in this space, and that's like the norm and isn't questioned. And I think that is a really powerful right. There's the practical impact, like the kids essays better after having that graphic organized. There's also this sort of, like, emotional self image, community impact, where people are like, yeah, yeah. In this place, it's okay to ask questions, it's okay to ask for help. I'm gonna ask for what I need work on self advocacy skills with all kinds of kids. Is it has huge, huge benefits.

Yeah, the I like, how you like the specially designed instruction for like, one or two students, right? It's not SDI for everyone else, it's just a support, yeah, right, yeah. And they can use it or not use it, but for the kids who it's designed for it's, it's SDI, and that's their special education. And you can do that like, there's no, there's no special education police that are like, I'm sorry, you know, but that's the thing is, like people, I think people really feel like, oh, no, no, no. That was designed for them. You cannot use that, yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. I

love that. There's no special ed police. Like, it's, it's, it's, you know? I think that, yeah, there are ways that we think about learning that we like. Sometimes, for kids who have IEPs, we get so hyper focused on, unfortunately, deficits, right, challenges they have. But let's frame it positively, and we're doing it in a strength based way. We think of, like supports that are going to benefit them. We think about how to design it best, so it's going to be a good match for their you know, the way they learn. And that's great, and that's really important for that kid, and all that work is super important for that kid, and also is more efficient and. An effective when we think, like, oh, wait, all that fun I just put into how I'm gonna support this kid in this way really has the potential to be useful to lots of other kids in this space, and so it you know, when a kid needs something specific, we figure it out and we give it to them. We provide it to them. I'm not saying everything should be universal. Everyone gets everything. Some kids need something very specific, and that's okay. A kid requires a an AAC device to communicate like that child should have that have access to it. People should know about it. All those things. That's okay. That's good. But there are a lot of things that we do that we think we're doing, especially for one kid, unfortunately, all too often, in separate settings, that if we're in one setting and we figure out a way to provide those things to all kids, a lot of other people are gonna, are gonna benefit. I think, yeah,

that's a good example the AAC. I think that's a really example of something that's that that is unique to an individual, and not everyone needs an AAC device. Yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah.

So we talked a little bit about barriers for learners, but I'd like to talk about barriers that for teachers. You know, as both of us have been former classroom teachers, both of us, you know, in similar situations. You know, similar ish with working in a system, working within a system, trying to change a system within what? What are some barriers that inclusively minded teachers face that, like in schools that still segregate learners?

Yeah, well, I think, like you said earlier, there's this. There's often misconception of inclusion as a place, right? We're doing our job by by the fact that a kid with an IP is in this particular class, and we know that's not inclusion. Inclusion involves the structures that get the kid into that space, in part, but they're also practices, and they're also like mindsets Right? Like philosophy, approach, and so I sometimes talk about the M and M's of inclusive education, which is just a catchy way to try to remember those things, which is like method, mindset, and then the s at the end is for those structures. So you need the method, you need the practices. You need to know what tools to use. But if all you have is like a great graphic organizer, and you don't know who to work, who to use it with, like you're a little stuck, right? Graphic organize for everyone, even if you don't need it and it's the wrong one, right? So you need the mindset, you need the approach, you need the understanding, you need the like understanding of why and when. You need that commitment to strengths based work. So we don't fall into sort of, you know, deficitized thinking and models of supporting kids. And you need those structures, the systems you need to make sure the kids are actually in the building, and that the building is accessible, and that there's professional development support for teachers. So you need all three right mindset, method and structures. And I think the barriers show up in each one of those things, unfortunately for the teachers you're describing right like there are mindset barriers. If you find yourself in a school where you're really committed to inclusion and it's not the norm, it can be exhausting, it can be isolating. You might have to deal with either condescending or sometimes like combative things that your colleagues say or hint about your work, and that's not great. You might fall into this thing where it's like, Oh, your kids, my kids, kind of thing where it's like, there's not this shared responsibility and commitment that's really hard to grapple with. And you might just be like, working in a in a place, in a culture where, like, it's very medical. My medical model mindset of, like, you know, kids have certain kids have problems, and I think it's your job over there to fix them right, and I don't have to worry about it. And that's really hard. And that's just the mindset stuff. Then there's the practice stuff, of like, you might not have the resources, you might not have the the access to training and support that you need to know what to do to support your students, and then unfortunately, the structures piece too. You might just not have the students in your room that you that you know you should have it should be there with you. You might not have a co teacher or CO teacher all the time because the funding or the scheduling, you know, hasn't allowed for it. You might be constantly having to advocate for your kids to be able to go on field trips or, like, be at the assembly, even though assemblies often are terrible, and I would love for many kids to not, you know, have an alternative if they're not even thought of, not even included, right? They're just, like, structural, systemic things that explain kids all the time, so I think they show up in all those spots, all the things we want to have work in kids favor, sometimes, unfortunately, do the opposite.

This reminds me of a story. So this. Was when I was teaching in a segregated classroom, K through five for students with significant intellectual disabilities. And I had a student she used a wheelchair, she had a feeding tube that that fed her and and so there was a multiple things going on, some some health some health issues and stuff like that. She came to me when she was in kindergarten. We included her in kindergarten during like, circle time. And the teacher was great, and no so we had developed a great relationship and the and so we this was, I think, like, the first few weeks of school, and we're, like, figuring out specials, you know, like going to the gym or going, you know, to to art or PE, I mean, art or music. And this young lady, we were taking her into the gym for for PE, and I had a relationship with the PE teacher. So, you know, we were doing our best to have an integrated PE time he and the like, the second we had, we had brought her into the gym, she lost it like she was, she was already non speaking. So the only way we knew that, you know whether she was happy or sad or anything was just kind of the noises that she made, and this was a definitely unhappy noise, okay, yes, exactly. And so I had, I think I had, you know, trained or drilled into my staff that it's like, you know, inclusion, you know, like, we're gonna make we're gonna make this work. And they looked at me giving them. They're like, what do we do? You know? Because, like, like, in their hearts, they wanted her to participate in PE right? But she's like, obviously upset and does not want to be there, and I don't know why, right? So I'm like, well, like we're not going to torture her so, you know, like we need one, like we need to leave, like we need to take her out and figure out what's figure out what's going on, right? Well, we learned that this particular student did not feel comfortable in like, these big, open and like echoey spaces, like she didn't feel safe, she didn't want, she didn't want to be there. So we had to, we had to plan something different for that student.

He, um,

did we stop trying? Though? No,

we didn't.

We did the answer to the question before you said it,

yes. Well, I think, I think that there's, you know, I think we could have said, like, Nope, that's it. It's over, right? We tried this is going to be too much. Yeah, exactly. And there certainly was, if I'm remembering correctly, like, discussions about, we probably shouldn't do that again. But I guess my my whole perspective, and again, I didn't always, things didn't always go the way that I wanted them to, but my perspective is like, we couldn't figure it out for this particular student, you know, but we're gonna figure out something else, you know, and maybe we're only going to go for a few minutes at a time, and hopefully help her feel safe in those few minutes. So and she was young and stuff, so I think things got better as we moved along. She ended up going to another school, I believe, actually, after the second after her the next year. So I didn't, I don't really know the end of the story there, but, but, yeah, I just share that because, because, again, I think, I think this is a recurring theme in our conversation. It's like, we're not in the business of torturing kids, right? This is because, just because, like, we want, quote, unquote, inclusive placement in classes like, yeah, yeah, no, no, we, we're gonna figure it out. We're gonna figure it out. We're committed to that. But, you know, yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, no, no, I am a good friend mentor of mine, Dorothy Siegel, who was a big advocate for Inclusive Education for decades here in New York City, she has been doing this work for decades, long, long time, and she sometimes talks about like what she used to see she's less of in New York City public schools now, a lot less, but the way it was. In the past, she said people who were doing inclusion were doing the drop in prey model, which is sort of what you were describing before. Yeah, they're in the room. We I think we're doing it and right? And the prey part is like, let's just hope it works out without the problem solving like you were just describing, and the commitment to, ooh, we tried it. This didn't seem to be, you know, jiving. Certainly not the kids fault. It's on us to figure this out. And I think, I think your story is a really good one, too, because the other sort of nuance of inclusion is that it's not part of the reason it's not just about place and it's just about getting kids in the room is because inclusion is not about like we're doing this thing here. You're going to come and do it the way we're all doing it, and that will be success. We have to rethink all those things and assumptions and entrenched ideas about how we do school for the benefit of not just students with IEPs, but really lots of other kids who are not able to learn their best, sometimes excluded, sometimes get in trouble for not sort of right, conforming or assimilating to this, like, very rigid way we've, we've designed schooling to work and so, like, it's a very stark image, and I hope you know, it was a happy ending in the end, for her to be able to participate, meaningful and meaningful in a way that works for hope. So, yeah,

yeah, let's hope. Let's

really hope that you know where she went. She had a she had a team like yours to do that work. But I think it would, it's not, it's not about, I think the image of a student entering, especially a gym, a PE like, like a gymnasium, which we just know instantly. We all have these, like sense memories of the noise, the light, the Echo, the balls flying in the air, like that, all that stuff like a child be expected just to get figured out is just That's not that's such a good non example of what inclusion is. Exactly

yes, yes. Another. So this also brings up I just want to give a shout out to the team at Ruby Bridges Elementary School in Woodinville, Washington. Kathy Davis is a friend and a colleague, and something that she says that I love is like we thought of you when we designed or built this place, yes, and it was it. And so everything that I know about rubbish was fortunate enough to visit and and observe what the what the school looks like. But when you have a mindset of everyone belongs in this school, right? And we are going to design spaces in this school that don't exclude you, but that support you and that you belong in every single space that everyone else belongs in. When you have that mindset, it's so much easier to be a problem solver, right? Because everyone's on the same page, everyone's like, everyone's in everyone belongs. There's some problems here that we're going to figure out. In fact, in in her office, I did an interview with her, and so we walk into the office, and on her, like bookshelves in the back, she has a sign that says, Everything is figure out able. And I love that, right? Everything is figure out able. Like, imagine, just imagine if everyone at a school had that mindset, yeah, yeah.

That would change things a lot. Because I think a lot of what we people face when they confront this resistance to inclusive practice and mindset is the we can't. We can't for all the reasons without space, we know the money, you know the resources in the training, like, there's a lot of we can't do it, and to just have that very growth mindset, sort of philosophy, like we're gonna figure this out, we can and we will figure this out, is that's the game changer to just like, enter into a very difficult thing to figure out and get right, so to speak, to get right as right as you can that that's got to help a lot. Yeah, um, yeah. Quick like side plug for inclusion stories, because I think you Ruby Bridges was out, was featured on that, and that was,

oh yeah,

thank you for bringing that up. Yeah, yeah. Is really, really amazing to hear about what they're doing, and also the process they went through too, not just like, Look at this place, it's so great. Here's your tour. Like, the thinking that went into that, and then they don't, sort of shut the code, and it's a lot of work, you know, Master so doing and all the rest, like you were just talking about, it's not a snap your fingers thing. But that was a really powerful story to hear. I think. Yeah, thank

you for bringing that up. I did not pay Aaron to say that, so I appreciate that. Yes, listen to inclusion stories on your favorite podcast player. It's a five part series, and I believe the one that you're talking about is part four, but I can't part three or four. I think it's four because three is see home high school, I believe, let's talk about advice, because I know probably there's some educators out there that are listening and being like, yes, Aaron Tim, I'm I am with you. I believe in inclusive practices. But you know what, I'm I'm just not in the right spot. You know? I'm not in a school that believes in it. I don't have leadership that believes in it. And you know what, I don't want to quit my job because I love working with kids like that is real. Okay? There's, like, 1000s and 1000s of teachers that are in that position. So do you have any advice for them,

I would say, Keep listening to think inclusive. And I don't mean to just keep plugging stuff, but I really mean again, there's not a sponsor, but we appreciate it, but I do, I really do, think it's powerful. And part of the reason I mentioned that is I think it's really important to find your people, and they might be people out in the world that you don't know, but they're on Instagram or have a podcast or wrote a book or are on YouTube. There are a lot of people in this world of inclusive education, real advocates that are sharing stories that are really powerful, that are offering you know, practical advice and guidance and support and strategies that can be really helpful, that I think are kind of make or break for someone who's like, really looking like, eager for and looking for this work and wants to do it well and isn't in a place. I've been very like I mentioned. I've been very lucky to be surrounded in my many of my professional settings by CO teachers and colleagues and mentors who push for this and advocate for this. And it's just how lucky am I to have been able to experience that? And I just recognize that's not everyone's you know, reality also, I think finding your people is about finding people at your school, even if they're not like your grade level, your department. Like, there's probably someone else who thinks pretty similar to you in your building, and you might not run into them in the hall every day. But like, if you can try to make an effort to, like, I don't know, take the subway home together, or parking lot in New York City, whatever, right? Like, like, have chats, whatever, find each other, connect with each other. I think that's very sustaining. Yeah, one of the one of the best compliments I've ever gotten for any of my work ever came a couple weeks ago, and I gave a presentation at the University of Sydney, Successful Learning Conference, and it was on circle kids and inclusive practice and executive functioning, supports and stuff. And a teacher wrote to me afterwards and said exactly what you've been saying. I advocate for this work. I care about this work so much. I love this work, and I'm in a building where it is not the norm, and I don't get any support, and people don't think this way. And I had been seriously considering leading the profession, and I think your talk just got me through another year and like, Ooh, wow. Like being a piece of being partially responsible for someone who was really committed to this work, feeling like they got a little bit more in the tank to stick with it. Is what a gift that is like. That was really powerful to hear. So I think people just need to know that there are people doing this work that care about this work out there, and it's possible to connect with people. And I also think it's about in terms of like practice, I think it's about recognizing, thinking about your sphere of influence, like the biggest thing is like, do right by your kids, and likely they're doing that already, these folks, and beyond that, I think you could Be an advocate for your kids, advocate for your families. See, push and nudge a little bit where you feel comfortable doing so and to the extent you've got anything left in the tank after teaching all day long. But I think like finding ways to right say, like, you know what this year, or all I got right now is like, I'm gonna do really dang good job in my classroom, doing what I know is good practice. Other times that's like, you feel like you have a little bit more reserves to like, you know what? I'm gonna speak up more in those staff meetings. I'm gonna set up a meeting with the principal or something in the district, like, if you have the capacity. Do that that's fabulous and important and really meaningful to do. And like you alluded to earlier, it doesn't always mean the thing you want to have happen will happen, but it's it can be really powerful, and sometimes that is what happens. And the last thing is, I, I, I like this. Um, there's a story a friend, former colleague of mine shared. She she was teaching in a, you know, separate setting, in a school that wasn't super inclusively minded, and she's teaching second grade, and found out that the second grade team, the whole grade, was going on a field trip, and no one thought to invite her second grade class on that field trip. And so she was in the office and saw a copy of the field trip, field trip permission slip on the copier. It was like, well, I'll run 12 more of these. Why not? And ran the copies, sent them home. Showed up, hey, yeah, hey, we're here. And the teachers were surprised, but she was again, like all my slips, we're ready to go. We're so excited to go to the zoo or whatever it was. And so I think if you have to get scrappy sometimes just to make it work for you and your kids. Sometimes that's what it takes.

Aaron, where can people find more about you and the services that you offer.

Yeah, I I do a lot of inclusive education, coaching and presenting and consulting in New York City and around the country and world, and I one thing I'm I'm running this year that folks might be interested in, as I'm doing a workshop series on inclusive practice called Designing, teaching differently. And it's going to be seven different workshops between October and May, one a month on things like executive functioning and universal design for learning and social stories, visual supports and some other things that are all in that realm of of you know, inclusive practice, essentials, essentially. And so folks to find more information about that at my website, which is just Aaron lanew.com, might need to Google it or whatever. It's not the most logical name, but, you know, we'll either see it in the show notes or the title of this, or whatever. I'm also on Instagram at Aaron lanew, same problem with spelling. LinkedIn, find me there. But yeah, most of the places where there are people doing things and putting things out there, I'm there, except for tick tock,

having other tick tocker.

Have you gotten on that one yet? Nope, yeah, I

resisted. I resisted to we are we are on actually, I don't think I've ever said this on an episode. So we are on tick tock y'all, if you, if you want to buy this, we're at Maryland coalition because, like, MCIE and, like, there's other ones that, just like, everything else, was taken for something. So that's, that's where we are. But I don't advertise that. That's not something I you know. Let people know. But now you know, if you want to get on there, you can follow both Aaron and and us, and we'll make sure to put your link in the show notes, and then you know your name and the spelling of your name, and most likely in the title. So, great, great. So thank you for letting us know where to find you. Okay, so, Aaron, are you ready for the mystery? Rushed,

nervous, but ready?

Well, I'm all right. My stack is putting a lot smaller when it when I first started, it was like that big, and now it's all right, here we go the purchase. Who is someone you'd like to trade places with for a day? I can get that on the camera. Gonna get in the camera. Who's someone you'd like to trade places for, trade places with for a day? Who wants to go first? You want one second to think about?

I think I have mine. If I'm if you need another minute, because I don't. I don't have it. You don't have it. Okay? Sometimes I know that's not the question you asked, but sometimes I've been asked, if you weren't in education, what would you do? Sure, I think you might feel similarly, I'd answer, like, without hesitation, drummer in a rock band. I don't think I'm not, I don't think I'm good enough to be and I could not, like, stand the life on the road or whatever, and I don't think cool enough. There's a lot of things that would not work about it, but that's just like, sort of dream land for me. So Janet Weiss is one of my favorite drummers. She's from quasi and later, Kenny and he, oh, yeah, yeah. I think she's great. And I could actually, like, do what she can do, like, with her drums for a day. Think that would feel amazing. Oh,

wow, wow. That's great. That is great. I. Man, this is a tough one, because I don't have anyone like, anyone specific, like, I'm not going to name drop, but so I will say at I've been an NPR listener for like, you know, since early college, probably not high school, but early college. And I was, I, like, always fantasized about being like, on the Morning Edition or something like that, like being like the host or whatever. I know that's a tough job, but it would be really cool. Yeah, just do that for a day, I'd probably be, like, so exhausted, but

it's just one day. It's just one day. It's one day you get to sleep this one day,

it's so different from what, like it is adjacent, you know, to what I do now, but it's the at least I have time to, like, you know, come up with questions and think about it, you know, just and take my time and stuff and, you know, and I know the NPR, the folks at NPR have have a team of people so, but I would always, I, like, I probably, if I got to go to, like, one of the national NPR studios somewhere, I'd probably be geeky out, Like, I love Gray, too much, really, too much excitement over that. Probably,

yeah, well, Terry Gross has a big following, you know, she, she's like, you know, called here. You're not alone in, in that, in that ceiling. That's cool, though. I mean, you, I, you know, been hyping you up a lot, but it's, I think that you're a great interviewer. And I think that sounds like a really good match for, oh, thank

you. Thank you. Yes, yes, yeah. I we, we support our local NPR station, W, A, B, so I live in Atlanta. The N CIE is in Maryland. I owe you know the NPR stations up there. Unfortunately, I probably should, but, yeah, we, we, we like to rep W, A, B, E, around here. So no, it's lover and pure stations and local affiliates. So cool. Thank you. I actually want to, like, what's the bonus? Bonus, a bonus mystery question, because we have a little bit of time and I want to talk about music. So you said you were a big fan of the indie rock. So I'm wondering, like, if you pull out your Spotify or wherever you listen to music playlists, like, where are things you listening to right now?

Ma'am, I just told you, I think I'm not cool enough to be able to, like, rep this, but I'll do my best. I am most of the time I listen to music. Is when I'm jump roping, which I do all the time. It's on my exercise and interesting and all this stuff. Yeah. So I have a jump rope playlist that is, like, like, they're all the perfect BPM to, like, get me jab, keep me going. And it's, I've got some great it's like, a mix of, like, it's mostly old stuff. I'm not that in touch with things these days, but I've got a lot of pixies and Blondie and talking heads. And there's some great things by Taco cat from Seattle. There's this band dinosaur skin from Taiwan, and the clash, like, the whole, the whole whole self titled album is, like, I think, 175 BPM, like every single song. So you just listen to that whole more work for like, 27 minutes straight. So, yeah, that that's, that's, that's currently what gets rotation is the jump pro playlist. That is fantastic.

That is great. I love the clash. I met Joe Strummer in person. So this was like, this is back now rock and roll days back in LA when that because I worked in Los Angeles County, it's big County, but we would go into, go into LA, just to see shows. And it was this club called the El Rey, which is like an old theater. And there's a we were seeing a band called blonde redhead, which is like, you know, indie rock legends, and me and my buddy, I was in the band with time while we walked past the bar, and there's Joe Strummer hanging out at the bar. And so my buddy Chad, he's like, you know, eff Joe Strummer is at the bar, like, we need to go and have a drink with just Trevor. And so I'm like, Okay, sure. Like, you know, like, he was like, I didn't have courage do that, but he did, so I just followed with him. And he's like, introduced himself, and, you know, he's just talking with some people or whatever. And so we wanted to buy him shots. And he's like, No, I. Don't, I don't do that anymore. Like you give me Corona, except so you bought, you know, we bought him, or he bought him a Corona, and we, uh, we toasted, and we had Drake with just our amazing when we left. Yeah,

it's good to have friends like your friend, who I share your like in context, like that, lack of courage to be able to be able to just, like, go up, it's just

a purpose. It's like, No, I'm not. No, I'm not gonna bother just drummer. Like, no, no. He's like, No, I am. What about just drummer

I once saw the weather, no, the traffic reporter from New York, one our local, like cable, like news station, um, Jamie Stelter at a, like, a book event. And I was like, I want to tell her that we watch her every day, and we sometimes, like in celebration of her, not mocking her say exactly the way she does to Pat Keon and like a little tiny local sort of celebrity, whatever, sure not, I could not muster up the courage to go up and just say anything to her. And I just sort of like shyly, like, retreated and got super red and walked with buyer. So,

oh no, you

got a friend who? Okay, okay,

well, um, okay. Well, here's to us, having people with us to encourage us to do those sorts of things. It's

all about independence, isn't it? Tim interdependence, that I like it.

I like it. Yes. Full circle there. Yeah. Aaron Monique, thank you so much for being with the inclusive podcast. This was a lot of fun.

I had a lot of fun as well. Thank you for having me and thanks for putting this out there to the world. Tim,

welcome back. It's time for the part of the episode that I like to call, three for me and two for you, where I give three reflections about the conversation that we just had with Erin Leno and two calls to action. So number one, what's my number one? First, I'd like to point out that the conversation that Aaron and I had about inclusive education and kind of the state of how schools are right now, a lot of educators wanting inclusive education, inclusive practices, and a lot of families as well, but not knowing how to get there. I just want to point out that this is a conversation that's happening all over the United States, in Canada and all educational systems, and so I really appreciated Aaron's just honesty about how hard it is to move things forward, and I'm reminded that not everyone is ready for this change. As someone who works in communications and tries to deliver this message every day, whether it's talking to somebody in person or over zoom or in our socials. There's a lot of people with a lot of different reasons why inclusive education won't work, and so I just want to reflect that the kind of conversation that Aaron and I have. I hope that it will help you have some language as you were talking with other people about the struggles of moving inclusive education forward in your neck of the woods. Okay. Number two, I also want to bring up the idea that inclusive education means 100% of students with disabilities have to be included in general education classrooms, 100% of the time, no matter what and what I mean by that is kind of what Aaron said, This drop and pray method, where it's like, you know, we're just going to hope that it works, hope that when we combine students with and without disabilities, that somehow magically it will all work. Well, of course, that won't work, and no serious inclusion advocate is advocating for that anyone who is authentically and passionately advocating for Inclusive Education means with support. Even then, when you are fully supporting educators and students, there may be students that we have not figured out how to include authentically and have them experience belonging, and so we're going to have to figure that out. But it doesn't mean that we stop trying, and it doesn't mean that we don't aim for 100% all the time well we get there. Yeah, we might not, but it's important that the mindset is that we are moving towards that goal. Okay, number three, this idea that we can't move forward with Inclusive Education or inclusive practices unless it's perfect or unless it's the absolute right way. I want authentic change for our school systems. I also want teachers to feel supported and equipped to teach learners with disabilities, especially learners with extensive support needs. That doesn't happen overnight. And so when I hear about school systems that are saying yes to inclusion and have goals that are going to be very difficult to reach in the short term, I worry that we aren't setting up those systems for success, and I understand that there is a sense of urgency, but I would rather us have a sense of urgency about doing things in an authentic and meaningful way on The path toward inclusive education. And that is why organizations like MCIE and others exist to be a partner with you to move things forward. So that leads me into my first call to action, if you are a school leader and you are just thinking to yourself, I want to move inclusive practices forward. I want to start dismantling some of these segregated disability specific programs we have. I want to provide an excellent education for all learners in my school or district, then please reach out and have a conversation with us. It doesn't cost anything to have a conversation, and even if it's just us pointing to you to some resources or even to another organization that may be closer to you in geography or more aligned with what you're doing, then we would still love to have a conversation with you. So call to action number one is email us at mcie@mcie.org you can also email me tvagas@mcie.org or use the contact form on our website at MCIE dot O, R, G, all right. Call to Action number two is to make sure you check out Aaron Leno's website, aaronlanew.com to find out what kinds of services he can provide as an inclusive education consultant. Okay, that's it for this episode of Think inclusive. It's time for the credits. Think inclusive is written, edited, designed, mixed and mastered by me Tim Villegas, and is a production of the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education, Original Music by miles credit, additional music from melody. Thank you to our incredible sponsor for this season, IXL. Learn more at ixl.com/inclusive Did you love this episode? Please tell us by either emailing me at tvagas@mcie.org, or find us on the socials and send us a message, either on Instagram or Facebook or or even on X so you can always do that too. Thank you so much for your time and attention and remember inclusion always works, go Dodgers, you

from MCIE, you.