Well, thank you very much for agreeing to come and help her. So do appreciate it. Now, before we begin, I just want to say that in this recording, it's important to remain confidential. When referring to schools and into individuals. Please don't name specific schools or alliances. Please don't name specific individuals by first name or second name, first name, it will be fine. But just to make sure that they're not any children that you do discuss, you do discuss any amount. That's fireball. They've gotten any questions where we start now? Fabulous. So we're here today to try and find out a little bit more about what how it feels and what it's like to be a mentor and instructional coach for trainee teachers. So first of all, how long is your student been with you?
So she started with us in September for her first placement. And then she went to do her middle placement in the school within our trust. And now she's back for her final shape schooling
direct. Yeah, fantastic. How long have you been teaching?
I've been teaching for 15 years.
How long have you been a professional mentor?
This is my second year.
Okay. And tell us about what sort of learning you've done about an instructional coach in any training from uni or from other aspects of the trust.
So I've only really engaged in the learning that we've been provided from where it gets. So the video coaching and things that we received during that really, we haven't had anything within schools specifically towards coaching. So just my own reading within what we've been provided from Warwick and just you
natural, lovely. Okay, so I want to find out a little bit more about your instructional coaching journey. So you said that you've done it for a couple of years. Tell me about how you kind of got into it, what it felt like when you first started doing it. Any tensions, any joys any moments of wonderfulness? Just tell me about your instructional coaching journey?
Okay, so I was asked to do it to take this role by school just said, you know, can you lead with the mentors this year been mentoring? And I said, Yeah, I'll give it a go. But I was nervous. And I thought, I don't know if I'm the right person. She is I don't know if I've got what it takes or what it needs. And I thought it was a very formal thing to be doing. And it sounded very scary, you're going to be a mentor. I've had students in my classroom before, but that's always kind of quite an informal experience, there was a bit kind of worried about it. But I think then I started doing it. And I was talking with my folders and very formal and very, that I found quite quickly that the best way to be it was just to have a conversation with the student and to find out about them, and where they were at, and just to take it from them. And when I started doing that, it was less about paperwork, and less about kind of ticking things off. And it was more about building a relationship with a person who's at a very important part of their career. And I realised that it was a real privilege to be in that position and say, Yeah, I really started to enjoy mentor meetings, and would find that they would last far longer than they probably should. Because I just found I was really interested in in the student and what what they were going through and what it was like to be learning to teach at this point, and how I could help them with that, really.
So tell me a little bit more about that. Tell me about the kind of use it mentioned, it took longer than you thought or would have planned for it to take. So tell me about the importance of having that time.
I think it's really important. And I think it's, it's quite a free if you can make it into a free free vibe sort of thing so that there's not too much pressure on what we're going to cover. And it can evolve. And I think that's the best way to kind of structure it or not a structure is to let it evolve within that time. And I think I would start start by going in with a really clear structure of what I wanted to talk about. And that's important. But not to worry if it doesn't quite go that way. And to take the lead from the student really and what they need to talk about because I think they don't really get a chance to reflect it's such a busy week. And with their class teacher it's very much about what they're teaching and the planning and getting this nuttin whatever done but when they're with you, it's it's kind of a sacred space to just talk and express what they're going through and when you listen to them, then that's when you can work out what's going what's really going on. I think so yeah, sometimes. I think if you can build a relationship where you can just chat and chat and chat with the student you're more likely to be able to listen and hear what you need to hear I think so it makes
perfect it just makes sense. A first year of mentoring you weren't you were hit with like having to do the CRD. Yeah, and that was new for
everybody. Yeah. So this year that came in, didn't it? So I think last year, it was a different, and how did you find that transition? And didn't like it start off with, purely because we didn't know what we were doing. So we were kind of fumbling around with spreadsheets and things. And I was a bit kind of, it just took a while to get used to doing it. And I thought I've done a year, and I've worked out what I'm doing. And now I've got to change it. And I think I'm this frustration there, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, I think there can be because you want to get it right. And you only have a certain amount of time in a week to do it. So you know, you want you want to be productive and efficient. But actually now, I think it's
great. So you have a collaborative review document. Yeah. collaboratively filled in together, you have the icon for the actual coaching observation, though. Yeah. And you have the URL for me experiential learning form. Yeah. To kind of support with an instructional coaching kind of approach. Yeah. Tell me about if you to what extent they might support you as an instructional coach? And are there any tensions within that way thinking, Oh, that's a bit clunky, that doesn't quite work.
I think, for me, in terms of using the observation form. A bit differently. I think that's perhaps where I could develop a little bit more, I'm still used to writing out kind of a script of what I say, which I think is helpful for me to remember and to know, and to think about, you know, what I really liked and pick that up. But I, there's probably better ways of using that. So that would be a thing to work on. I think
I think I think lots of everyone is built with a narrative within Melbourne. Yeah, need. Yeah, absolutely. So that's a starting point. Yeah. And then I suppose that the next layer is that Sabian symbol, what's really important? What really makes a difference to that? What will make a really big difference that student will want to talk about in our conversation? Yes, yeah.
That's the kind of next layer for lots of Yeah, was actually. And I like to focus on thinking of questions, you know, rather than just feeding back to students saying, This is what I saw. I like, you know, when you turn over the form, and you've got to then construct questions together and talk it through, I think that's really good. And it's building on that element of the observation, I guess.
So I've got a flavour of your your journey over the last couple years. That's super helpful. Can you tell me now when you're thinking about that instructional coaching conversation that you have, either when it's when it's posted lesson, yeah, or what we're going to record today, when it's your weekly mental meeting, tell me about what you think makes a good instructional coaching conversation.
Okay. Think you need to have, you do need to have a structure in terms of knowing what you think you've got to kind of pull out of the student. So thinking about well, I know that this is something we're working on, or I know that this is something that they've been worried about or concerned about. So how am I going to not solve it? But how are we going to approach it? How are we going to get to the nitty gritty of that issue. So it's knowing what the the areas of development are going to be got to have that in mind? I think sort of holistically, you need to have a an approach from a wellbeing point of view. So that's got to be really important. And the student needs to know that that you care. So it needs to be a nurturing session. And I think I think you've got to listen to what they're saying. So it can't be all about what you want to talk about. It's got to be
why isn't listening so important? And thinking about that? So the reality of a lesson? Yeah, so something hasn't quite gone? Well, I'm sure you've seen lots of lessons for trainees where something hasn't quite worked. And you don't get the feeling from what they're saying that they picked up on quite a major element that has that that can be tricky. Yeah. So the listening element, tell me about why that listening is important. And then tell me about what your strategy is for tackling something like that. I think
you have to listen to understand what they are seeing, and what they think has happened, compared to perhaps what you have seen, because if you if, if you're just telling them what you want to tell them and what you think they should do, you haven't necessarily understood why they've got that misconception or a little bit like you would with the children, if you don't listen to them, you're not going to understand what they do think is happening. So it's, it's kind of working out what what they're seeing through their eyes. And then with that information, it's thinking okay, well, how can I show them what I see? Or how can I? How can I encourage them to see things perhaps from a different point of view, or can we arrange something like they can go and see see it and see what I mean? I guess
so. If not, I'm wondering, do you think there's kind of a clear cut? This is what you do when the student doesn't see? Or is it more complex than that?
I think it's more complex, because I think it depends on what kind of learner they are, and how they, what in what kind of environment, they will thrive. I think some students really like to be told, this is what I saw. And this is what the children were doing. And this is what you were doing. But some students back, that's not the right approach.
So Jim Knight, in his research about mentoring talks about having a toolkit. Yeah. And whilst I, I am a bit concerned about having the idea of a finite toolkit, get this one out for this, that kind of metaphor, where we slightly what you're describing is having a kind of horizon of tools. Yeah. And selecting a bit like a surgeon, the precise one for that precise issue. In that kind of context, I
guess. Yeah.
How do you know which one to choose?
I don't think you always day, I think sometimes you can do something and then realise very quickly, that was the wrong way to approach it. And that's why having that space is really important. And getting to know them is just the most important thing, because you you will figure out what's not gone well, when they're just literally staring at you or, you know, you look like you've broken them, then, you know, pretty quickly that that was the wrong way to go. But that's an so you just have to build on it. I think every every week when you meet them.
Okay. Okay. So you've talked about your role in instructional coaching conversation? What do you see as, as the trainees role in the conversation? And I'm thinking over over time, so like in say, September, October, November, it does that role of the trainee, do you think kind of morph went from when the starts kind of now. And when we're talking about May, June kind of time, tell me about what you expect of the trainees role in that in an instructional coaching conversation.
I think, again, it depends on their student now experience. So if they come to you in there, they just are on it. And they've been through something similar before, you know, you might find that you can crack on and they'll know what to do. If you've got somebody with a bit less experience, it's about I think it's about setting the kind of expectation for what mentor meetings can be. And perhaps the difference between what you might do with the class teacher, and then what you might do with a mentor. So you might have to, you know, share that a little bit more at the start. So module and module it, I guess, a lot more at the beginning. And getting them used to having a conversational meeting, perhaps more than a than something that they might be expecting.
So what sort of stuff can they bring to that kind of meeting in the early days in your experience? And what sort of stuff do they bring up themselves near the kind of end of the call,
I think, at the start, they'll perhaps, I think they're always going to be sharing their experience of what's of what they're going through. But I would hate by the end, they're bringing many more of their own reflections and their own ideas. And I tried this, and this didn't work, this worked. So it might be more that I'm talking more at the start and suggesting more things. And then by the end, it might be that they're doing more of the talking and reflecting and I'm perhaps just facilitating a bit more
fabulous. When you're part of an instructional coaching conversation, I'm interested in how it feels for you. So like, I'm thinking about a student who might have had a really wobbly week or a wobbly lesson. And you're dealing with that, how does that kind of weather those emotions sit? And kind of how does it feel when you can see, see them kind of flourish and move forward, just talk me through about the kind of range of emotions you go through as a mentor.
I think I think if you've built a nice relationship with them, I think it can be quite, it can be emotional, and because you want them to do well, that's ultimately what you want. And you want them to feel confident and happy. And equally you want them to grow. So I think I think you feel better about it, but I feel better about it. When I can, I can sort of create an environment where it's okay to get things wrong, and it's okay to make mistakes. Because otherwise it feels awful, because you feel like you're just telling them off or, you know, picking out, you know, things that they've done wrong and that just doesn't feel right. So I think that is tricky. It's really tricky. Because you don't want to devastate somebody and you don't want to put them off.
But establishing that reality is
Yeah, yeah. And, and I think, you know, I've learned personally, to try and have a bit more of a growth mindset. So I think If I can help students have that it makes it just makes everybody feel better when you're having those tricky conversations. And if you can kind of guess it's, it's always nicer if you can put it in their hands a little bit and say how, you know, what did it feel like when this happened? Or? I don't know.
Okay, it's tricky, is tricky. We're kind of thinking at uni about using video and the power of video in establishing that reality a little bit. I wonder, have you had an experience of experiences of trainees videoing themselves? Have
you ever been videoed no having?
What sort of emotions? would you feel if you've if you if we kind of introduced that into the mix where we said, right, we're gonna figure this lesson and part of your instructional coaching conversation is to watch a bit of it and talk about it. Tell me how that would feel.
I think it would feel strange to start with, I think it would feel quite, but it's just not Yeah, this is not something I've done before. And I think there is a kind of fear behind being filmed. Yes. But I think, again, anything that you can turn into a supportive tool. If it's managed well and used? Well, I think it can be quite powerful.
But yeah, I think like you say, the way that would be used would be crucial. Yeah. So now just tell me a little bit about the link between university and school, because we're really interested at work in seeing how those two are linked together. And and that we know the government are interested in that. And officers when they go and inspect, you know, institutions of higher education for training, they're interested in that too. We're wondering at uni, what is the link between the research stuff that they do at university and the reading and the assignments? And all the theory that they get kind of there? And then what they get school? In your experience? Do you think they marry words together or not? And why might that be?
And I think from talking to students in terms of the research they've done at uni, I think the most powerful ones are where, you know, they've researched something that's going to directly impact their practice. Yeah.
Do you think a university do enough to help schools and see and understand the most recent research?
Possibly, I mean, I yeah, I not, I haven't kind of been aware of anything for you know, specifically. I mean, there's certain things that have come through. I think timing time is an issue when you're teaching in school, and, you know, you kind of got a million things to do. And, you know, whether you're passionate about learning or not yourself for your own benefit, it's difficult to carve that in Yeah. So I think, you know, whether there could be some think, between uni and mentors, time carved out or something where, I don't know,
do you have any research in your CPD that you have at school?
We do. Yeah. So we while we have to take that on ourselves? So we decided on a project as part of our performance management that we then researched throughout the year.
Some some staff meeting time to do that, or
a date we have, we have had a bit. Yeah, but I think that could be developed as well. Obviously. Time for anything.
It really is. Okay. I'm just thinking of that. If there's anything else, have you found anything really challenging about the instructional coaching model stuff that you thought, you know what that that doesn't work, or I'm not really sure what that adds or offers, or I don't know how to go about this.
I think I think it's just making sure that you've kind of got the student at the heart of it, which I know is the idea. And obviously, change, adapting the way that you do things for different students can be challenging, because the way that you might do something for one student might not work for another. But I think it's quite open. And I like that I think the change in the tools that we've got now are more open. So now, I think I've I think I've enjoyed using them. I think I think now I've got my head around how to do it. Yeah, I think that's okay.
Okay. And then just take a moment to just reflect on all the things we've kind of the avenues we've explored. Is that anything about instructional coaching that you sort of thinking, Oh, we haven't talked about that. And I really wanted to say about that, because that's, that's something I've been interested or thinking about or wanting to say, is there anything else that we haven't captured that we've captured or thought about?
I think I think I the only thing I would sort of think about is the fact that how the how the role of a mentor is, is kind of maybe perceived or presented. I don't know if that needs to shift a little bit in people's mind. Sorry about that. I just think I think when you hear the word mentor, it can be a bit hierarchical. And I don't know where the students can sometimes come in feeling maybe frightened or worried or intimidated by a mentor. And I feel like that's probably the most destructive thing that could happen.
Do you see a difference between the language of mentor and instructional coach?
Yeah, possibly only because it's like, mentors have been around forever. I haven't there. Yeah. And I had a mentor and, you know, it's just an whether it's lost its integral meaning, I don't know. Where, whereas if it was you, coach, then maybe you would feel less intimidated by a mentor meeting? I don't know. Okay, and if students knew that the relationship was at the heart of that kind of idea that you're going to build a relationship with someone who's going to support you and who's going to whatever happens. It's not, you know, it doesn't matter if things go brilliantly every week or not. Your mentor is there not to check up on you. I think that would be nice.
