Hello, and welcome to Stepping Into Truth, the podcast where we take on the issues of race, gender and social justice. I'm your host Omkari Williams, and I'm very happy that you're here with me today. Hosting this podcast means that I have the privilege of speaking with people who are out in the world, making a difference with their day jobs, their programs, their art, their activism, and I truly love doing this work. If you would like to support me, you can do so for as little as $3 a month by becoming a member of my Patreon community. You can go to patreon.com/OmkariWilliams and sign up. There's also a link on my website omkariwilliams.com.
My guest today works to bring support and fairness to people encountering the legal system, alongside his wife, Jessica, Drew Willey founded Restoring Justice. Drew left a career as an accountant to attend law school at the University of Houston Law Center. An internship with the Texas Innocence Network showed him firsthand how the legal system dehumanizes poor people, people of color, and those with mental health conditions. Drew became a criminal defense attorney primarily working on representation of the indigent.
And this work eventually led Drew to found Restoring Justice to not only provide high quality, holistic counsel to those who need it most, but also to find ways to expose, disrupt, and fix the systemic racism and discrimination in our criminal justice system. Drew's work as a public defender and as the founder of Restoring Justice has been featured in publications like the New York Times, Texas Monthly, Texas Tribune, and the Houston Chronicle. And it is my great pleasure to welcome Drew to the podcast. Hi, Drew, how are you?
I'm doing alright. How are you doing?
I am doing well. I've been looking forward to this conversation. So, it's such an important topic right now. I mean, there's so much going on. But before we get into sort of all of the stuff that's going on in the world that relates to the work that you do, I want to start here. Over the past few months, I've spoken with a number of people who are working to make significant changes in the criminal justice system. And one of the things that I have been particularly interested in is the variety of stories of how people get involved in this work. So I'd love to start by having you talk about how your experience, specifically at the Texas Innocence Network, propelled you into criminal justice work.
Yeah, I mean, that's a question I get and I always smirk, because it literally changed my life. I mean, my entry into criminal justice reform was not gradual. It was all through this one story and through a calling and my own faith walk. And so, you know, I had gone to law school to be I was a tax accountant. And I was so I was trying to be a tax lawyer and took a clinic over the first summer. While you know, mornings, I was doing my old tax accounting job to make some money and then afternoons and evenings I was doing what was more out of curiosity than anything else, but the death penalty clinic.
I can't say that when I started law school, I was opposed to the death penalty. And so you know, wanted to work and I guess the adventurous seven enneagram in the likelihood of going to figure it out and go to death row, and had no idea what was in store for me. And what was in store was a case of a man named Marvin Lee Wilson, who after investigating his case, and who he was, as a person, realized that he was set to be wrongfully executed. I believed him to be innocent of his crimes.
But even more important than that, you know, constitutionally, he was mentally ill, and so had he not been executed when he did. Two years later, the Supreme Court changed this ruling and said, Texas cannot execute men like him. And thirdly, probably most importantly, he was just a redeemed soul. I mean, he was in death row saving men and told me in tears, "You know, my whole life. These lawyers have been trying to prove that I'm crazy, and I've been trying to prove that I'm sane." The moment for me that broke me was talking to his son who said, you know, because of Marvin, my kids will never know a life of crime. So he was just a beautiful, beautiful soul that a lot of reasons was being wrongfully executed and all of our claims got denied after a lot of work of figuring all that out.
There was a mentally ill claim to the Supreme Court, there was an innocence claim to the Texas highest court. We asked them to test DNA evidence against corrupt police, Caucasian hair, because you know the state's theory, there are no Caucasians present and yet there was Caucasian hair in the hand of the victim. And then there was a clemency petition that tried to tell that whole story to the governor. But the lawyers overseeing the case cut a lot of my storytelling from his life, because they were worried that it cut against the Supreme Court claims.
So his life story never got told. And all those claims got denied in the same afternoon that his execution date was set, and the state was was gonna murder him. And so luckily for me, I was grounded enough to go to Bible study instead of a bar to drown my sorrows. I had fasted that day in his honor. And so sundown I was coming off a fast at a Bible study, and someone read proverbs 31: 8 and 9, I don't even remember the testimony of the person reading it. But that verse, speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, defend the rights of the poor and needy was the sledgehammer over the head calling for my life. And from that moment on, I was committed to indigent defense. And so the story of Marvin Lee Wilson and the tragedy of Texas murdering him, has led to my commitment to criminal justice reform.
I love that you reference the power of story, because I deeply believe that story is where we connect with each other and where we find our shared humanity, and where we understand experiences that, on the surface have nothing to do with us. And I think that one of the tragedies in our criminal justice system is how little space it makes for story, and how it's a recitation of just the facts. And I use air quotes on that, because they're not even necessarily the facts. But what seems like the facts, because that's easier. And it also makes it easier for us to not look at the accused person as a person. It makes it so much easier for us to just look at them as something other than us who did this bad thing and now we need to exact retribution. So what you said is just incredibly powerful. And thank you, thank you for those words.
Something that I found very interesting as I was doing my research for this is that even within the network of those who are working in defense of accused individuals, there are significant problems. And some of those problems led you to founding Restoring Justice. And would you talk about what some of those issues are? And what your vision for changing that dynamic with Restoring Justice is?
Yeah, your questions are allowing me to correctly walk through my stories. I appreciate it. Because when I came out of law school, you know, doing indigent defense was really hard. I mean, every single person said, "You must go to the prosecutor's office to get trial experience". And I was like, well, trial experience of locking people up isn't the kind of experience that I want. And so I found a very small network of people who didn't believe that to be true. And so once I came out and started my own practice, and was trying to, you know, sustain myself in this work, people knew, my network knew, that I was proactively pursuing indigent defense any way I possibly could.
And because of that, I started getting calls. And what I thought was a few extra calls, started taking a few pro bono cases, when I thought was a few people falling through the cracks of their representation just not being adequate, is what really caused me, it got to be too many calls for a side pro bono project. And so I felt called to start a nonprofit. So my wife and I founded Restoring Justice on MLK Day, purposefully in 2016. And what I learned, because once you start a nonprofit, you start fundraising and you have to, you know, figure out the numbers for marketing and all that. And so what I learned was, you know, this net that I thought people were falling through, the calls that I was getting was just a few falling through the net was pretty much a string. There was no system to provide adequate counsel whatsoever. And 75% of people who get appointed an attorney, get appointed one who take on too many cases to ever be able to provide adequate representation.
And so what we believe at Restoring Justice is those with no voice, right, is going to be too easily chewed up and dehumanized by the system that ignores you know, any aspect of their story. And so we have to tell their story and advocate for them on an individual basis in order to save them. And so we try to reach those with no adequate voice, with the least adequate voice, and boost them up and give them the absolute best representation. And to your final question about what our vision to change, right is, it's really simple. It's low hanging fruit, like, limit the amount of cases going to all of these court appointed attorneys so that they're not overloaded.
The attorneys exist, all you have to do is impose caseload limits of disallowing the top guy from taking 500-600 cases, spread them out amongst the attorneys that do exist. And hey, at least the representation is not non existent, at least people aren't sitting in jail without being visited for a full year. You know, if you impose caseload limits, it's a really simple answer to a problem that seems to be overcomplicated. And everyone's pointing the finger at someone else to do it. So our vision is to hopefully impose case the limits as a starting point to just raise the bar from complete absence of representation to at least some semblance of constitutionally adequate representation.
It's interesting that you say that, because I spoke with someone recently who was himself involved in the prison system. And he spoke of how he met with his court appointed attorney for three minutes. That was it three minutes, and it was three minutes where it was a matter of, here's what you should do, do this, or, you know, there's no hope. And that was pretty much it. And I have to say, I knew things were bad, but I was horrified. I was just horrified.
And that is the case for 75% of indigent defendants in Harris County, which amounts to 50,000 people every year. In Harris County alone,
Harris County, for those who don't know, is in the Houston area. And so it's quite a large County. And something about that is apparently 70% of those who are incarcerated in Harris County, are in jail. So they're pre-trial, legally innocent individuals, and yet they're in jail. And what is the average length of time that these people spend in jail before their cases even go to trial with that kind of overload?
Yeah, I saw the numbers re-reported because they're changing all the time. Last week, actually, and I saw 87% of the Harris County Jail inmates are pre trial, meaning they've not been convicted of anything. And the average stay is, I believe, 140 days.
So more than a third of the year. And how do people even I mean, let's just assume for the sake of argument, that someone is innocent of the charges, and they're in jail pre-trial for 140 days, what does that do to their lives? I mean, your employer is not going to keep you on the payroll for 140 days, if you're not showing up to work. Your family, what are I mean, what are some of the downstream consequences that you are trying to cope with here?
Well, yeah, you you lose a job, you lose your car, right, get stranded somewhere, you're gonna lose your car, you're gonna lose your housing, rents not gonna get paid. You know, and those are the real kind of tangible things. I mean, you know, if you're taking classes, you lose a semester of classes, so you're going to lose degrees, you're going to lose dollars there, you're going to lose mental health care, if you're supposed to be getting it on the outside. You're going to lose any other kind of assistance. If there's even if you're like going to a church and involved in a prayer group, or, you know, some kind of assistance program, you're gonna lose the ability to be a part of any of that.
And all of that is just kind of like surface level stuff, right? I mean, then there's another deeper level that you started to touch on. And one of the services we provide, we do take over our cases for our clients as we offer them all, free of charge, trauma informed counseling. And so you start talking about the trauma and the broken relationships, whether it's father, son, you know. Husband, wife, husband, husband, whatever kind of relationships you have in life, after spending 140 days in jail, in a cage, are going to be strained and they're just going to take a significant heavy load.
I'm out all the time and I have a hard enough time managing my relationships with my wife and my son. To have 140 day break in that results in that much added strain and work to get back on track, to just get back to even par. Right? And again, that's just like level two, we haven't even gotten to level three and level four. And so, yeah, it's just a never ending cycle of oppression. And you know, whether that's oppression of putting someone in a cage, oppression of getting out of a poverty cycle, oppression of your emotional baggage, and trauma, which then gets down to an ability to be spiritually free, right, all of those other things have to come before you can experience spiritual freedom, at least in my beliefs. And so it's just a complete lack of any kind of freedom in society that ultimately harms everybody. Right?
Yeah, that's the thing that I've spent a lot of time thinking about lately is that you're not just doing damage to the person who is technically in the system, there's so much damage that's done to their social network, and that some of that damage winds up in adding more people to the system, because you're creating an environment where it is exceptionally difficult to navigate the world and stay within the law. I mean, if you can't put food on your table, because you don't have money, and you still have to eat, then maybe you will steal food if you're trying to feed your children, you know, and then you're in the system, and the cycle just keeps repeating. And I think that that is not only part of the trauma, but part of the tragedy for everybody.
We've had a case where a man set for six months without seeing a court appointed attorney. And they were offering him six years in prison because he was stealing baby milk for his child,
I don't even really know what to say to that. And I'm going to just go out on a limb here and say that this was not a white man.
No.
Yeah.
African American.
Yeah. It's just...
In a place, in a town, east of Houston that is refusing to change the name of their high school away from Robert E. Lee High School. So you know, Baytown, Texas, imagine?
Yeah, I'm so shocked. Yeah. Okay, so something that ties into that, that I, I've been thinking about it. So let's say that person gets out of jail, let's say that their case is dismissed or they are found innocent or whatever process does not wind up putting them in prison. It's not like things end there. Anytime you are involved in the criminal justice system, there is a long term impact on someone's life. And I would love for you to talk about some of that, but also how Restoring Justice is addressing that because I know it's something you're acutely aware of.
It is, I mean, once we started doing the work, and again, you know, we started doing the work by proximity, getting close to those who need it most. And so once we started doing that, we realized, well, their needs are going to go so far beyond this legal case. And frankly, the needs not being met is an impairment to advancing the legal case to a resolution that's fair to everybody. And so we early on, and it took a long time, I've applied for a lot of grants. But knowing the need of social services was a long time coming. And we were finally, I guess, 2019, we're able to hire a full time social worker. So alongside our holistic zealous, full storytelling, equipped attorneys, Restoring Justice provides our clients with social services.
And we do that through a licensed social worker, as well as a client advocate who really, you know, walk side by side and get really involved in resource connection, which I'll say, even having those personnel on staff, the lack of resources available in the Houston area, you know, some of this other kind of broader societal injustice that's going on. There's really a lot of deserts and resources. I mean, they're coming to me all the time, like we're trying our best and there's just nothing to to provide, like, what can we do? Can we give them cash? We're not a mutual aid organization unless we can start one, or partner with one, but it's a very difficult thing to do. And so I wanted to highlight, yes, we are leaning into it, and thank you for asking about that. But at the same time, that doesn't mean it's just easy and that's just a solution that's just working, because it's a struggle every day.
So if you would talk more about what kinds of things you would like to be able to provide to your clients in that realm of re-entry, and moving on from what is undoubtedly a really traumatic experience. So what is it that you would love for your social work team to be able to do for the people you work with?
Yeah, I mean, the list is so long, but primarily, you know, first and foremost, you can't get out from jump without housing, right. And so adequate housing, I mean, most of the clients that we take over have experienced housing instability, at some level, they've experienced some level of mental health issues. And so those two things, I mean, we even like go in and judges, progressive judges, newly elected will tell us, whoa, release this person, if you can get them into a home. And yes, there's a lot of homeless shelter marketing, that goes on about Houston. However, when you really get down to it, if you want something that's not a cot in the middle of a gymnasium, where the only place to go to the bathroom is, you know, next to that cot, then there's really limited options.
And so, you've got other solutions, like Austin, you know, building the small, tiny home complex for homeless, there are other things that local jurisdiction city, county can do now that they're just not doing and other organizations aren't doing them, you know. And then second with that is mental health. I mean, the state of Texas has chronically decreased funding for mental health over the last few decades. And we're really seeing the impacts of that as soon as someone comes out. You know, medications being stable is a big problem in and out of jail. And so having someone to properly guide mental health issues, there's just almost nothing and so it just, I mean, counseling is one thing, but it turns into us just trying to be a listening ear, and just kind of hoping and hanging on for the best that, you know, doesn't always work out.
How do you all cope with this? Because this sounds so hard. It sounds like this has got to take an enormous toll on you and all of your staff, because it sounds like as hard as you try you fail far more often than certainly you would like to.
Yeah, that's right. And we have systems and structures of self care, right. I mean, counseling is on company time for our employees. We offer, if they stay with us three years, a sabbatical. We offer mental health, I sent an email this morning, we're just in a season of loss. Last week, one of our first clients of the year, he died of a drug overdose. And a lot of it was from trauma because his his spouse died of drug overdose a couple of months earlier. And as much as I stressed self care, it's just a constant work on me.
And I'll say this, I mean, I'm off the frontlines. My staff attorneys and social services team are the frontlines and so my job now is to support them. And so I had to remind them, I mean, in the face of that kind of loss, in the face of yes, every story is not going to be one that we create a fundraising video for that is the story of freedom. The struggle is real, what goes on the streets, what poverty, the impacts of poverty, when you're proximate to it, it is a daily grind. And then you have things right, like Daunte, Wright comes up this week. And it's just, frankly, you know, your question is, as an organization, I can feel everyone break when something like that gets added on to it. This is why, the Daunte Wrights, of the world and why we're doing our work. And look at you know, the comments and the responses to that we just know were going to be extremely judgmental, close minded. And so, you know, I just tell him book an hour, go reflect, it's a spirituality kind of thing. So I don't again, as you can tell, I'm rambling. I don't have a good answer to your question, but we're just trying any way, desperately that we can, to hang on. So we can keep doing this work,
I don't think you're rambling. I think it's literally the trying any way you can, which means you're reaching out in multiple directions to try and see what will actually make a difference because there is so little support for what you're trying to do. I mean, the Daunte Wright thing, I find that for myself, I have had to keep some distance from it. Because between the Derek Chauvin trial for killing George Floyd and then this, I just feel like I'm on that edge, where what is on the other side is just such a deep well of frustration and grief and rage that I don't want to go there right now because I can't be effective in that space. But it's there. And at some point, I will have to deal with it because you can't just avoid. But it's really difficult and to do this as your staff does five days a week, and then I'm sure it's not like they stop thinking about it at the weekends. So, it's very hard. And I think it's enormously important that part of what gets considered in this whole thing is not just the trauma on the people who are in the system, but the trauma on those who are trying to create a system that is a just equitable system. So I think that's just enormously important. And I'm so appreciative of the work that you all are doing, because it's got to be brutally hard, especially right now.
Thanks, yeah, we are trying our best.
One of the things and you sort of you mentioned this, that this client died because their spouse had died a few months previous. And so I know that one of the things you and your team pay attention to is that it's not just the defendant that needs attention. It's also the family. And as I referenced a little bit before, as you know, statistics show that someone with a parent who's been incarcerated is far more likely to themselves wind up in the carceral system. So when you and your team work with family members, what are you trying to accomplish for them? Besides the work that your team is trying to accomplish for the individual who's actually been charged with a crime?
Yeah, I'll be honest, we're kind of new and trying to feel that out. And so our social services team is trying to come up with new ways. I mean, our chief defender came to be about a potential idea with some people she's connected with that, you know, for family counseling, group counseling, psychiatric support, on a family basis. Another kind of side related projects that's going on, there's a group called Texas Advocates for Justice. And they are starting right now a program called participatory defense. And so it's not just the family, it's the broader community all coming together to support the indigent defendant. And I think that support that, open door for avenue for aid, right, if the family can be involved in really helping the individual, then I think there's given take, I think there's support back to the family as well. So that programs, you know, goals and targets is not specifically to provide secondary trauma support to family members. But, you know, I think, as we feel it out, we're just trying to grasp at whatever programs are in place and try to create new ones, to provide as much support as we can, because yeah, there really isn't. I mean, there's other groups, too, that I'm not mentioning that I forget, but there's just not a lot of resources of support for the family members either right now.
And it's Texas. So you have these two, well, you have Austin, which is super liberal. And then you have the rest of Texas. It's, I sort of think of it, I think of Austin as this little blue dot in a sea of red. So Austin's doing things like tiny houses, but then in Houston, you're really fighting against an incredibly corrupt system, and the judicial system in Harris County, I know that you sort of touched on this a bit, but I would really love for you to talk about the ways that people's Sixth Amendment rights are being violated and what you think needs to happen to change that. And if you could start with what Sixth Amendment rights are so people are all on the same page. That'd be great.
Yeah, for sure. The Sixth Amendment when I'm referring to it, I'm specifically talking about the right to counsel. And so the Supreme Court case in 1963, Gideon v. Wainwright said that the right to counsel is not limited to people who have enough money to pay for that counsel. And so you've got to provide it and so there's a lot of follow up cases describing what that adequate, well, effective counsel is. And one thing I'd like to go back to some earlier comments from you, was there going to be some responses about the storytelling and some of the initiatives that we're trying to do of, well, you know, they've committed this crime or they've been accused of this crime and so they should do their time, right. That kind of mentality forgets The Sixth Amendment constitutional right.
We're talking about why spending three minutes with a defendant is so egregious, is because there's a constitutional right for these defendants stories to be told. And there's a lot of stories that have to be told there's a story of the accusation, what actually happened, there has to be an independent investigation into that story. Then there's the story of who the person is. That's called mitigation evidence that's constitutionally required for defense attorneys to gather mitigation evidence, who are they what led them to this scenario that caused this accusation? There's some of it tend to suggest that we shouldn't punish them as harshly as the statute dictates the high end of punishment. You know, that's mitigation evidence. And so there's that story, too.
And then there's the story within the justice system, which is more about what is an ongoing story through the resolution, right, because when crime happens, it's a harm. And when there's a break, how do you resolve that? Well, you know, we believe it's about wholeness and victims voices have to be heard, right? This is kind of the problem in a lot of marginalized communities where they're over policed and under policed at the same time, right? Like there's a problem where victims voices are not being heard. And so the story of the justice system that has to be dealt with means there's like active work by the defense attorney, on coordinating with the judges, the the court staff, the prosecution team, in order to make sure that the resolution that does happen is one that can be seen as just as possible, right?
A three minute meeting with a defendant disallows all of those stories to be told. And all of those stories are have been found to be required by the Sixth Amendment to the US Constitution. And so that's what we're talking about. And so I think that also answers maybe correct me if I'm wrong, the second part of the question of like, what do we have to do to uphold that Sixth Amendment basis? We have to have people who have the time to dive into and tell and walk through those stories for every single person who's being accused of a crime because a criminal conviction is supposed to be by legal standards, it's supposed to be the hardest thing for this system to do. I mean, beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest legal standard by far. And yet, we have more people being convicted of crimes by far, than you know, you'll ever have in civil suits, family cases, everything else.
Wow, that's really interesting to just have it put in that context. And that's going to give me a lot to think about over the next few days, for sure. Our time is starting to get short. And I'd love for you to tell us about the Delphi program, because I know that that's something that you are restoring justice are very invested in. So tell us about that?
Yeah, I think it came from some early frustrations in this reform movement of looking around, you know, there's all kinds of town hall meetings, there's all kinds of political initiatives. And you know, we wanted a spot where the average person could stand up and say, I want to do something today, for someone's freedom. It's not a request to send money somewhere else. It's not vote differently. It's not come speak, at this town hall, or this city council meeting or Commissioner's court meeting, it's, I want to be a part of someone's journey out of this system, their journey to freedom tomorrow. I want to have that real tangible feeling. And there was no opportunity for that. And so we want to provide that if you want to be a part of that.
Come volunteer through our Adelphoi program, that's Greek for brothers and sisters. Come be a brother, sister, to someone who's suffering in the system. And we've got, you know, a really great volunteer coordinator who will guide you through that process. Again, as you've heard, we've got the attorneys, we've got the counselors, we've got the social services. So you as someone's brother or sister, we're not asking you to be any of those things. We're literally asking you to sit across the table from someone who's experiencing something difficult that might be different than what you're experiencing. And together, you guys link up as equal brothers and sisters, and have this journey to wholeness and justice and love for each other because we think both of them, you know, can move on that journey together, as all life should happen.
That sounds so lovely. And that actually brings me to a beautiful quote that you have on your website from Mother Teresa and it says this, "It's a drop of water in the sea. But after this drop, the sea will never be the same" and I cannot tell you how much I love that because one of the things that I really work hard on explaining to people and convincing them of is that their contribution in whatever way they make it does matter. And that it's not just about doing the big thing. It's about all of the little actions that accumulate over time to create the change that we are seeking. And you chose this quote, for a reason. And I imagined that there are days when you feel an enormous sense of hopelessness. So tell us a little bit about that quote for you.
Yeah, we talk a lot about that. And we also talk it in the sense of the starfish story, right? There's a million starfish on the beach, and can you throw them back and get any that is going to make an impact? Well, I can do it for this one starfish and throwing it back in, you know, so we have these water droplet and starfish kind of ideas of paid staff on your bulletin board, you're going to have amazing stories. I mean, when we get a dismissal or a bail, a bail amount lowered, and they get released, and they're going back to lives, I mean, we have these really beautiful moments where these heavy impacts, long lasting impacts, that you hear about. Two years later, the client calls, you got me out, it was, you know, this two days of representation. I'm doing better, I'm back, I'm plugged in, I've got a job. And it's just a beautiful moment. And so we keep those on our bulletin board. So whenever we do have the hopeless days, you know, we can look back and look up on our bulletin board and be reminded of those droplets. Those starfish have those magical moments just so that we don't forget why we're doing it.
I think that's a really excellent idea for all of us on this path. Because it's very easy to forget, it's very easy to get discouraged. So before we finish today, I would love for you to leave our listeners with three simple things that they can do to make a difference in this area.
Yeah, and you're gonna have to forgive me, you know, as a white male CEO, my job, my job is to fundraise. So call to action one is going to be the most kind of eye rolling one, please donate. Our support, our work is hard. And we do need financial support to continue to do it for more starfish, more water droplets. The second call to action is a much simpler one. If you want to learn more about injustice or the justice system, we finally have a really great curated resource library on our website. So our website is restoringjustice.org the resource libraries, they're the donation library. So just pick one book, we've even got a way to request to send one for free. So if you can't afford these books, we're going to send you one for free. So just read a book to learn more. I mean, that's, that's going to lead to a lot of change. The third call to action, you know, will be to volunteer either as an Adelphoi or a new ambassador program. So lots of ways for you to kind of take that first step and all of it is appreciated by us. So
I am so glad that we got to have this conversation. I think the work that you all are doing is amazing. And I hope for the day when it is not needed. But until that day, thank you so much. And this is been a really moving, meaningful conversation for me.
Well, thank you for the work you're doing.
Thank you. We are living in a time when there is so much work to do in our criminal justice system, then it can just feel overwhelming. From police reform to reforming how our system of representation works to reforming how we sentence people. It's just so much. So all we can do is pick one thing and do that one thing and keep working at that one thing and just keep persisting. As Mother Teresa said, "It's a drop of water in the sea. But after this drop, the sea will never be the same". Thank you so much for listening. And remember, change starts with story. So keep sharing yours.
