Inclusion Story 1: India's First Autistic Model- A Strengths-Based Mindset

1:42PM Mar 30, 2024

Speakers:

Savitha Sundar

Dr. Taub

Pranav

Anupama

Keywords:

child

work

people

superpower

happen

modeling

mumbai

favorite

thought

educators

caregivers

parent

talk

life

share

give

person

challenges

told

love

When I was 16 years old, I was introduced to modeling as an activity

in a theater workshop, I fell in love with it

and wanted to become a model. My mom said that it's very difficult and I have to work very hard. I said I will.

I worked very hard on my fitness, and kept on trying hard and being patient. Finally I succeeded. I want to keep being a model, and never retire from ordinary.

Welcome to inclusive occupations, sharing stories of not just being invited to the party, but dancing. I'm your host Savitha Sundar, I'm a school based occupational therapist. This podcast is a space for OTs and others, who work with children and youth and education to be informed, inspired, and empowered to create an inclusive community for the students they serve.

Welcome to season four of inclusive occupations, a podcast dedicated to learning and growing in our understanding of authentic inclusion. This season is focused on stories of individuals with disabilities and their families. Our guests today are pronounced and Anupama backsheet, a remarkable Mother Son pair. In occupational therapy we use the term ko occupation to characterize occupations where two or more individuals share a high level of physicality, emotionality and intentionality. Lives occupations are often interdependent, giving meaning and purpose to all involved. I believe Pranav and Anupama story reflects that today 23 year old Pranav has a successful career in modeling and is ambitious about pursuing his life's dreams. Of course getting there was not that easy, pronounced Tyler's mother Anupama refused to complain, resent or give up. She invested her energies and focusing on her son's strengths and interests to help engineer a life that enabled him to be and become the person he is today. UNO's wisdom from their lived experience is indeed quite powerful. It calls for us to rethink possibilities and reframe our interventions situating their story in the Indian socio cultural context I'm sure some of our listeners will be intrigued to learn how systems work in other parts of the world. Pranav did not want to talk about his school experiences and I respect that. Let's jump in and listen to pronounce and Anupama Bakshi?

Put an oven on Obama, I am so delighted to have you on my podcast inclusive occupations. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today. For now, you are a success story of an individual with autism who claimed his artistic superpowers to pursue his life's dreams. Today you have Yes. You are a successful model today. India's first artistic model right.

And you also share that your mom is your other superpower. I would love for our listeners to hear about your journey of how you got there. When I was small. I was a naughty little kid. My mom and my sister. Were very patient with me. I remember all the funny and inappropriate things that I did. I was very interested in a lot a lot of things like skating, cycling, playing the piano drawing and photography. I am self taught in photography. When I was 16 years old, I was introduced to modeling as an activity in a theatre workshop. I fell in love with it and and wanted to become a model. My mom said that it's very difficult and I have to work very hard. I said I will.

I worked very hard on my fitness and kept on trying hard and being patient. Finally I succeeded. I want to keep being a model and ever retire from modeling?

So, you know, servitor they are these epiphanic Can I say something in your life, you know, when prana went for this Theater Workshop, he did not want to come back. And he wants to he kept on asking the organization when it's going to happen next, you know, he literally pestered them. And I thought that he loved the therapist and the environment. And then, you know, he kept talking of modeling. And then he, the modeling was introduced as a very, you know, basic level there. So, you know, sometimes when he parents asked me, How did I do that, you know, so, you know, you can't in such a situation, you can't really make this happen, right. So then when we came back, two things happened. One is that we were, you know, in a mall, and maybe I've spoken about it before, what I really want to relive that moment for those who might want to know how these things happen. My daughter and I are on our there, and actually, that time, my daughter was my focus because she you know, as a teen, she was picking up some clothes, and I was, and you know, in those showrooms, it was a mango showroom, he they have these big screens where models keep working, right, yeah, suddenly realize that this is what I learned. And then he said, This is what I want to do. And at that moment, Savitha the same woman was standing there, she giggled.

I have laughed, and my daughter was very upset when we came home. She said, Why did you laugh? I said, I don't know why I laugh because I thought it's very sweet and it's very endearing. But you know, look at what he said, which isn't why can't he say that? And you know, Savitha both Nikita and ranawat exceptional from a very short mother perspective. They're exceptionally tall kids both of them and I assume Nikita is just a tall lanky young you know t that said she said but that's what he wants to do then after that, you know, he would start sending me pictures of holdings and say I want to be that holding this is not something I can put in is it this mother you know all you know, I won't say frumpy but almost you know, focused on a cat mix and not into getting pictures Glendon into all these I did tell him that is very difficult, but then friend told me You only said that if I if I work hard, I can do anything. So the logic was very disarming and that's how it happened and our product offered says that you know yesterday I think they before maybe two days ago there's this thing about you know, Delhi capitals and they came to feature him they picked up this line because kind of said there also that I'm not going to retire now. I know. This is a one sided statement from the other side. The work needs to keep coming but I'm very happy with his dedication, you know, and proud of also says that this is his artistic expression. Right? Right. Yeah. You think modeling is an artistic expression. Yes, ma'am. So yeah, yeah, so Coronavirus is favorite artistic expressions, which is the other artistic expression I think writing writing and which is a favorite invention you wanted to

reduce my favorite invention by the way radio

still on it can never be off I can't hear it but one of Ken radio channel you want to tell her about it.

And my favorite radio channel is nerdy 4.3 Radio One

so it plays contemporary English music it has to be on all the time means all the time even his work time is placed in the back so it's like you know something so on they

don't like to visit cities that don't play 94.3 radio

see? Okay, so I guess we should have started off asking a little bit more about where you live because my audience are nations are international. And please tell us where you're from.

Okay, so you want to be very amused with the wave runner? I'm sure it's got introduced the city where he lives. Where do you where do we live tell her

and we live in boring New Zealand I only want to live at home.

Boring new puppies is that the new avatar that New Delhi has got lately is very very focused on moving to Mumbai and shifting to your next pet project that he wants to relocate to Mumbai. So New Delhi for all practical purposes is boring. I'm glad you're so smart in front of perception New Delhi is now boring.

I have all these fancy the capitals The New Delhi wanting to live there and I guess I have got to have a different perspective though. Okay, okay. Okay. So you know I like to start my interview with a favorite quote from my guests is there one that you have pronounced and I know and

the code that in the code that I like is work hard play hard and believe in your superpower I work very hard and I enjoy my free time I'm confident because I believe in my superpower

caught in his work hard play hard when his sister and he were discussing one day and I think she it's though David Qaeda and Neo feature account I was going to say so this the one which is playing model example.

Okay, work hard play hard. Yes. Well, that is also a song by David Cara and new feature Akon

so Savitha just to let you know loves knowledge about English music is just phenomenal. And I thought that he sister must have told him that the way you lead your life is work hard play hard. I did not know that it says favorite quote comes from his favorite music. I'm still getting to know pronto.

Okay, I have to listen to that I'm gonna check that out.

My not 1000s of so you keep speaking and whatever words you speak, there's a song for that. And I will tell you that song. Amazing thing about him. So his knowledge of song is so but also trying to Can I tell her my favorite quote to read. So Savitha I, you know, ironically, I had heard this quote, you need a village to raise a child right? I quite believe that. And so my favorite quote is an adaptation of this one. And my favorite quote is if you can't find a village to raise your child be that village to raise that child because along the way, that is what I did. And that is what actually became the game changer for me. I mean don't look for that village to raise your child be that village you can have so many aspects to your you can you can look into yourself, you know that reservoir is so deep, keep digging in and you will find the power and you will find the energy because you know Brianna was not 23 Back then things were not very great and there was not an I don't know how I found my thought process to be so different. And you know, I always had that fire in me and you know, I when I looked around I didn't find an army of people saying yeah, we are with you, we understand you and that was fine with me. So I was that one person army and I really believe that you know sometimes we change those you know, quotations quotation or you know adages which are there and add they can actually become a nice scaffolding for us you know, many times in you know, you have your ups and lows and you're not I wouldn't be like No, no, no, I can pull this off. So, so while Bread and Roses favorite quote from which singer you just quoted him hardware who was at hardware, hardware. All right. Hardware is from where hardware is from bread and other lengths or he must wear EDM artists that yeah, yes, he played EDM,

Song Spaceman, you know, still the one with cannabis feature Max Collins.

They got a lot of music interspersed in our conversation.

My next question sort of follows up with what you just said, because we hear the saying all's well that ends well and today for now, this young adult with a successful flourishing modeling career and largely included in society and able to choose the life he wants. Was it this way? Always. Tell us more?

You want to say that? Yes.

Many times people say that. I have a great job. I have a modeling career. I'm a good graphic designer. And I'm an award winning photographer, and also a budding writer. All this happened because of dedication, and lots of hard work. I wake up early, I have a packed day. I do everything in a planned way. I don't rest till I have done everything perfectly. I try to do my best.

So I'm still here watching something here. So you know sometimes avatar Can I talk of obsessions? So from now on Then seems to have be obsessive about things. And he also shares and we talk about it that already, this is an obsession. Suppose we turn the things around, and those obsessions help us a product is obsessed with being perfect. What's wrong with that, that makes him perfect everything Ghana has is obsessed with the flow of the day being perfect. The best example we just had, we discussed that we would not have a video right? So if I interfere there, then I also interfere with other rhythms. Because when I look at the so called obsession thing as a tunnel vision, or you know, whatever you want to call it, I mean, you people say no, then you have an eye for detail and you miss the entire picture. Well, you can bring the entire picture in. So that's up to you, how you intervene as a caregiver or the parent and turn that into a strength. So Prada has done everything, which he wanted, nothing has been imposed on him. The only thing that he was formally introduced to was graphic designing. That's it and he loves it, right. Yeah. He wanted to be a model. He applied for a job in Thomson Reuters. He has a keen you know, you're an eye for news. Now after we wind up. I mean, he's going to catch up on us what's happening, whether it is IoT or whether it is internationally or things like the other day somebody had come to you know, take a little interview at home and they asked him to go do you so probably the question was a little open ended What do you want prenup said I don't want Israel and Hamas to fight so so you know. So yeah, and and children are getting killed so you know all these things he you need to have the discerning eye your child is showing an interest he started clicking pictures when the first smartphone we acquired as a family we found that the pictures are very good. We would just leave in the morning and tell printer where are we going for a court to walk we would just go anywhere where printer fancied he would click pictures and nobody taught him to just click and I would feel so disheartened that he's deleting the best ones and then he did the one which he felt were good you know it and he did end up winning some awards and photography then he because like you know everything is compartmentalized and there's perfection. So today is water series to tell tell Savitha about the different series that you click pictures and maybe

click pictures in all series silhouette Series Cloud series plus series and also plant series

for him it's a series you know, so I might today miss a beautiful silhouette because today I've gone for a flower I should not interfere there right then yeah. And so coming back to how this happens we move stop strength to strength because the initial step was aligned to what I like it wasn't imposed on me. So pranas is wherever the interest happened we all aligned our powers there you know it's like that. So it was modeling all right we are here this this this is required we might fail Pranab tells me you only say even if we fail it's alright we must try so that is sorted. And his try will be like that try that obsessive try a try of a perfectionist see? So know where should we try to intervene with the basic personality of a child you know, or a young adult. So at runoffs case he loves to create vectors anyone is teachers is drawn out It's fine. I'll send you some maybe you can share them you know with you know, you know a few parents each hit and he has done his own portrait hair each strand opposite he'll take hours to perfect that well the end result is so perfect is designed the low CSR logo for Tata Power. So it falls into place, right? So if I tell him Hurry up, do it don't have keep track of time. Obviously the larger picture is that that he'll eventually keep track of time eventually is when it comes to his work as writers. I mean, he gets appreciation from his colleagues because everything is so perfect. He responds to a tagging in nanoseconds. That is all eyes and yours and you tell me why are you calling when you are you're supposed to be working. And I'm supposed to be working and don't watsapp me right And so these things can be looked at at different ways. Oh, no, no, no, we have to look at the larger picture. And or, Yes, I need to look at the eye, you know the detail, I need to have a panoramic view, I have to have the larger view, but everything should be aligned to the basic thing, you know, because I have an idea of how I need to streamline my child, I need to create my child, and I'll set on that path as a very dedicated parent. So somewhere my child is aligning himself or herself to what I want. So if there is a child, or explored talent, le melotel. And I mean, why should you call it talent, unexplored? inclinations, desires, maybe skills, maybe inclinations towards skills, let's work on that his writing, for instance, you can't make anybody write a journal every day, right? So a lot of the many social stories, I would talk to printer that, you know, printer, then back then, you know, I used to write a journal. And then one day, I just told him that journal, yeah, this is how you guys so I mean, I'll send you a picture there, you know, rows and rows of journals, it is this thing. Now, you just need to refer back to that, and 2019, you started journaling present. And then you know, so there's a day to the need entry. And, you know, this is how the day ends. So that's a beautiful Catholicism tip. So to sum up, it works. This has been my experience, of course, maybe different people have different experiences and respect everybody's experiences, what I have seen is follow the natural inclinations. And that works best, we all Savitha we are neurotypical adults, we need our own inclinations to flourish, it's just that we know how to maneuver our ways around. So just because we have somebody with a diagnosis doesn't mean that we need to impose our things there. So I'll never tell him to hurry up with his vector. That's why they're so beautiful. I'll never tell him not, I'll never tell him to be less of a perfectionist, that makes him a very good employee, I'll never tell him not to be so focused, because that made him finally make an entry into the modeling world. Whenever I would go and hand the choreographer of a show, they will tell me, Well, he did it. That's the only thing. I mean, he wouldn't be here if he was not able to do it. So imagine being there at the show, thinking and those algorithms that maybe if I enter from your app to exit from there, maybe that's not all that extra work is doing, right? Because there will be cryptic instructions and things will happen in a jiffy. And, you know, we will need a more detailed input into what's going to happen, right? And cannot predict and assume, and but then things will fall into place. Because we allow these basic skills, which actually exist in our population to have to be respected.

I think I think what you are basically sharing is giving that space for growth is so vital, and and not just for somebody who is neurodiverse. And pretty much all our children need that space. And we're always constantly fearing for the future, it seems like, Oh, if you, if you get too obsessed with this, you're not going to have the time to learn that. And forgetting that being obsessed with one thing is probably a strength that can be nurtured and lead to something really impactful in the future. Right? We're trying to frame our children in the way that we think or I think the possibilities are, are infinite and how one can be successful in life. You've done just that given him the space and the respect to be who can have

wanted to be and probably not fix him.

Exactly, exactly. You did a totally strengths based interest based. You carved an interest spaced path for him by giving him the space to possible you know,

I also end up picking No, no, he has no interest, he has no interest. I mean fine, even even, you know, I'm not going to come up to my parents and look up. So you have to have the discerning eye, you know, because the child is not going to be speaking volumes to you. Our neurotypical children will negotiate with us, they will be their own advocates, they will they will be able to put their foot down this is how I want it done. The neurodiverse probably individually throw a tantrum. So that's the only difference right? So so that doesn't make the nipa diaper person a less advocate that that tantrum with an advocacy for one way, so let's not fix that. Yeah. That's how it worked with us. So those

are these are some really good perspectives for us to have So uh Pranab, I have a question for you Do you think you are different because you have challenges?

Everybody has challenges, and we should know how to deal with them. So nobody is different because of challenges.

I love that. I love that. So that's the commonality, in fact, for all of us, right, we all have challenges. And that does not make us different. That's

something so last year, I told him about ableism. And that, but then he is confused. He said, Fine, if that's that's the perspective, but the common but but then everybody has challenges. So So you know, somehow Savitha This is the narrative he grew up on, because I would very disarmingly share my challenges with him. Like, I would tell him, Look, I'm so goofy, you know, I'm so so I'm gonna buy a new phone product tells me, please don't lose or break this one. Or, I tell him that I'm, you know, Brenda and I are a great combination. So I never find the ways and Rhonda is phenomenal in his memory. So, you know, we are a great competition. So helping him but he's amazing. So, you know, today, like when I when I went out, and I'm like, where is this? And where is that at any give me that look, this, she will never improve? Because I was opposite walking in the opposite direction. And then. So you know, my daughter, also, you know, we've we've kind of had this, I must tell you this, and this is something I really want parents to think about. I mean, I can't impose my thoughts on let's be very disarmingly honest about our own challenges with our children, let's normalize challenges, it's not a big thing to have a challenge. We all have them. I tell both my kids so we have a WhatsApp group, and I'm constantly, you know, trying to tell them that I did this, I was so goofy, I'm so clumsy. So it doesn't make the lifts efficient, more, my children don't stop respecting me. I don't come down from any pedestrian. In fact, they found find it, you know, amazing and hilarious. And you know, and you did that again. And, you know, so the last time I broke what, what I can't tell you though.

At phone again, and it's like, I don't have to break this phone and have a good or bad. Now, you know, my daughter went out, you know, an awful day, I could not fix this fix that. So for us challenge is something that's taught very, you know, you know, God says some formidable thing in our life. Well, every day, we have a different challenge. And everybody faces challenges, right? The main thing is, how do I deal? So anytime planet faces something, we immediately he immediately starts decoding it in front of feels very happy when he finds a solution, right? Yeah. Best thing in Chronos like to find a solution. And that's, you know, that's like it kicked up. I found a solution, right. So today, like in the course of today, like we went to a place we were here, we were there, we were still doing so many things. So we had a little bonfire outside the house, you know, before you joined us and everything was, you know, happening in very compartmentalized time zones. Because you know, like I told you, there's this person, elderly person in the house who has a heart ailment. Now, I didn't know that things had to be done. And then I had to go and see the bonfire is on. And then he had to take our tray out. It's a little thing, don't you say this is a 43 year old young man? Well, why not? It requires the executive functioning of the brain and many manage that. I mean, I never told you Well, this was not a challenge. I'm like, Wow, you did that? Because he did. He preempted a certain things. And he made those five steps which I had calculated to be just one and managed. The Bonfire is on. So this is a simplest possible example I can give for a young adult. But everything for us is finding a solution. Right? When you find solution, yourself, right, right. And when I'm traveling for work, the best thing for me is when I get a whatsapp pro planner, I managed independently. Yeah. And founder. So you should yeah. So that's the thing. So So challenges are normalized in our lives right now.

For know what kind of educators should we have?

What kind of educators should we have? So you don't want to answer that? No. Can I answer that? So what kind of people do you like? People who are What are we not talking about any particular educators, we talk about educators in general Mama is also an educator. Yeah. So am I patient? Yes. What else am I

caring, caring and also loving, also loving?

Also. So educators should be caring, loving. And what else?

Oh supporters

supporters. Oh, wow. So that's the kind of Yeah. And and as a parent of as a thing about people not raising their voices. So that's what you're not. Yeah, yeah, we're not talking about any particular educator. Yeah. Right. Yes. So you know, so the way three of us are my daughter, I don't have an i. So I have somehow so I don't know how that happened. The credit goes to the kids of course, not really raised my voice with both of them. And somehow, you know, we've had a very, I don't know how we've been we are friends or god knows what we are. But that's how you know it just happened. So anytime if you know, I write in a chat, prenup I think this needs to be done she will immediately WhatsApp me. Why are you shouting? Shouting? For me since you never showed this is the sounded very formidable. This sounded very didactic. Come on, sometimes once in a while. We need to get things done. So for educators are like, yeah, that's wonderful.

I think we all want love educators who are loving and supportive and patient with us. We

like that. You want to see a little more of this? Are you fine? I'm fine. As I can tell, that's all he wants. That's good. That's good. I know. Okay. Tell tell Savitha about because Nikita is your biggest cheerleader. So what Nikita, like, that made me want educators like that? Yeah. How does the kid behave with you

could choose your show so caring, loving and also supportive? She's always

a supporter. So that's what, that's why sometimes we don't get people who are always a supporter, but it's fine. Yeah, people we associate with about, you know, we think through your passes, when we don't like somebody's behavior, what do we do? We ignore, ignore. So that's, that's a bad strategy.

So I knew I have a question. So this podcast is all about inclusion. Right? So what does inclusion personally mean to you?

Well, I would not like to take a very, you know, a ballistic view here. I mean, I hope I mean, I don't want to, you know, be my response to be categorized as either animalistic or compassionate, or empathetic, or sensible or sensitive. I have what pronoun told you, you know, read, you know, a while ago, everybody has challenges. So I really want to normalize differences. Right? So when I say that, let's all be a spectrum. Some of us will manage scum, what may even before the teacher has taught a concept in class, I've been teaching for years and years, some of them just get that right. And they're a step ahead. Well, that's also a difference, that's a different side celebrate life, there is somebody on the other end of the spectrum. And I'm not saying you celebrate that you support that don't highlight that, you know, because all of us as caregivers, like I would include myself have gone through a lot of adding extra layers to our skin, which means being thick skinned, and you know, ignoring, like, you know, I, you know, left out the crap, you know, honestly is a very, you know, you know, let's say, very normal statement, I'm making informal statement, but then along the way have to shed a lot of the inhibition and as they say, Cut the crap and be focused on your own child, we just have to sensitize starts emphasizing very early, very, very early. You know, like I was telling you that there is this education policy, that government of India now has got formative years, it's a national curriculum framework. I happen to be doing a lot of trainings on them as part of my work. So the word that has been used for specially abled is the young. Now, there we are, if you mean in Hindi, is a game that some kind of element of some status are given to my special needs child. That doesn't help either. Again, I won't say that shouldn't have used that word because probably that word was used to give some kind of respect or some kind of dignity. You know,

what? I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.

There beyond. Its, you know, like, you know, if you if you if you Google that Divyanka would mean, you know, like somebody's God like or angel leg. Right.

Okay. Got it. Got it. That's the language that the government of India has assigned or something. Yeah.

Yes, yes. But it's in the document. Right. I still celebrate that because again, we've come a long way from I've also read worse terms, you know, at least we are young, but why do I need to be deferential probably I'm very very idealistic in my mindset and thought process. And if there's somebody flapping their arms in the middle of a mall, I don't want people to look back, I want our children to be seen enough in outdoors and every space and every arena in every cohort in every like you're doing that amazing job in your school the resources so that I don't my eyes don't pop out well look at this child. So, energy of the caregivers will be focused on just the intervention and not so much of sensitizing but I cannot go and announce to the whole world that look probably statistics talking or statistics will help probably we should not rush everything under the carpet probably you know we should not you know justify our child's presence in a particular space so inclusion for means well this vn assortment human beings are blessed with one IQ anyway, I'm not an elephant so I'm expected to behave like an elephant or a dolphin I'm expecting a set behavior probably right. So I'm an assortment of a human being. So let all the differences be whether it is physical, whether it is in the cognitive area, you need to include I find these things that when I when I train, you know on I feel so good that you can you have to give admission to the wound and there's so much of your input into how and how I need to teach the VR well there's somebody else who needs to do that, who needs to read that he needs to do that in letter and spirit. So I need to carry that forward. I need when I say I need more of awareness that sounds so typical and we've been talking about that for years now and I was not ready three or four what along the way. I need more visibility now. You know when I see somebody on a wheelchair in a mall or in an outdoor place I should not bat my eyelid or I should know it so many of them elect today I'll give today's example so we pronoun when I walked into a showroom he was picking up some clothes and there's this very you know articulate young man as a sales personally asked for know what he does and I said, you know, I'm a model or something and one thing led to the other. And he told me that he is looking very familiar or something like that. And one thing led to the other and he had seen the feature on he said was he on Delhi Delhi Daredevils page they before so that was just a happy coincidence. But that but that is not the that's not the norm. That's not the norm. You know, he should be able to understand that there will be some person who will answer in mono syllable so my thought just start talking immediately and who will probably process well, you know, what should I say? What should I not say? Not that proud of faces those challenges discernibly. But still, others will write and when others go through a journey of facing them to reach here, I remember I had to teach them 100 Happy Mail used to be for 99 bucks I used to be standing in a long queue with impatient people behind me while I was trying to make promap Take that one rupee back I didn't care for the Happy Meal. I cared for the math right. And then I stopped I would be the first one in the queue 10am orders by workers and phenom now tell me why did you give me such unhealthy food right now? Yeah, it's kind of has told his nutritionist that when I was young my mother fed me all kinds of

back to us sometimes don't

remember what all I gave him to eat right? Yeah, what all did I give you your tell? Savitha when you were a kid

Ambetter new gym gym cleaning biscuit? Aloo bhujia right and also Maggie two minute noodles.

stuff I've done. I thought I'm making my child happy. So anything, so somebody should be able to understand well, I know I'm the busiest person but they could be somebody, if there's a neurotypical person fumbling with money, I'll be out there helping that person, you need that L, or I'll be impatient either way. So let let it be both. I don't want the whole world to stop just because you know, my child is passing, you know, and if somebody is making amends, we should celebrate that, you know, there was some news, I don't want to code, there was a particular airlines in India, because I traveled so much for work, I end up being a frequent flyer. So one airlines had refused, you know, a young adult with autism to vote the plane because they thought that the behavior was bizarre, right. So the way that Airlines has made a mind because I ended up traveling on the same airlines. Okay, I thought I'll boycott that airlines, you know, but then wherever my office ends, me, I'll have to go and whichever airline and I can't choose choose that, they were making the special needs children bought first, now they are talking about stuff which special needs children make and sell. So this is happening, if there is a space, which has made a mistake, or, or has shown some kind of ignorance, I should also be able to forgive that, right. And I should also use that as an opportunity to educate. So to sum up, for me, inclusion means we should have some people who carry the torch, we should actually, you know, have some people who pick the idea of spreading awareness, rarely statistics more, and they can be people who are at the back end, the caregivers, or the people who are working with the young veterans, because if a child has reached an outdoor area, it's not written on his or her face, how much work as of the occupational therapist, or the sensory integration division therapist, or the special educator has gone for the child to be actually standing there, you know, facing all the crowd and hearing all the noise, right? Absolutely. So let's, let's normalize people looking the friend not looking different and behaving different. I don't know how it is out there. But you know, I have seen this, you know, people being judged and all that. And I always preempt, and I will always go and say, this is Toronto, and Toronto has and now, you know, we reached a stage where I don't need to. But I will do that for anybody else.

I think what you share is so deep. And so I think a lot of people can resonate with what you're saying. And I also think that everybody, every society is in different phases in that journey of normalizing. Sometimes you have to bring it out before you normalize it. So just so people get the support. That's

the only way that's the only way isn't it look at the statistics of autism, for instance. That, you know, when I'm saying I better No, I'm not bringing in any imperativeness or any, you know, kind of you know that this must happen. But ideally, it should happen so that actually, you know that all right, this is the person with the it shouldn't happen in a tokenistic way. Yes.

Also, yes, yes. Yes. I love this. So, okay. So in, from what you from what you have defined as inclusion or what it means to you personally? How would you rate the level of inclusion in your society? On a scale of say, one to 10 subjectively, how do you feel your society is inclusive?

It's very situation specific. But a certain day, I would say 10 On a certain day, I would say one it's very situation specific and unfortunately an example um, yeah, if I'm in a let's say, if I live in a certain cohort, and if I decide to take for an app to Coventry celebration, I mean, definitely, if I know that people from a certain I will not involve the economic aspects or certain socio cultural background would be there I just have to say and Rana will be welcomed and runner up would be you know, people will be delighted to meet him. I mean, if I gave you pianos example, on the other hand, if I'm in setup Lexus, let's say nursery kids, nutrition. neurotypical parents will feel might feel I'm not saying wealthy. Not talking of any specific parent, or the child is running around and doing bizarre things. My child is going to learn this behavior from him or her. So that situation is zero or that or any wedding, you know, when everybody's busy, you know, you know whenever I go for our big fat Indian wedding, Savita for me otherwise, it's up is tough time you know, a typical autism mom, I always been thinking how I can make it adaptable for a young adult with autism. That's not bad. If you sit there thinking, probably this loud sound, I'll make less I'll make this. And I'm like poor people, they spend so much of probably energy in this big fat Indian wedding and this, here I am carrying it into pieces in my mind. Example, but we go to a marketplace, and a child had thrown a tantrum. Even the shopkeeper will tell the mother while letting the child cry just buying me chips copac you're done. So pica, I'm just speaking and then I'll translate it for parents who you know, it just entropy is it's happened with me, then you have to pay straight face, give that body language to that person, please stay out none of your business, and then poke from your child because you're ignoring the child, whether it's a tantrum, it only depends on the child, of course, you're trying to do your ABCs of behavior management, the antecedent and the behavior and the consequence than this. If you go to parks, children will move away if you go to because I'm not just talking of my child, I'm talking of in general, because I've seen that I've seen happen with him, right? So every day, I'm not going to get that walk, you know, small circle of people who have very strong relations with me or the family. And because they are they are probably they are going to accept the child anyway. So ah, it also depends on the dynamics of the situation. It also depends on how the caregiver is going to negotiate there. But you know, it's not always easy, it's not always easy because you're, you're always against the tide, let me put it simply, I mean, a lot of energy I'm here when I say are I'm speaking on behalf of the caregivers and they all understand what I'm saying. A lot of energy goes into that though, here's the situation again, I have to turn the things around again, I have to talk about it. So in known spaces in spaces where there is some kind of prior knowledge about the child and then the inclusion is great, otherwise it's not. So it is very situation specific Savita and again, this is connected with how much awareness I can bring in so that you know, I don't get to, you know, 10 on 10 everywhere, but you know, I do reach out to you because it's because we're quantifying it and qualifying it, I do reach a decent seven everywhere, you know, at least I can bring my child home with certain takeaways. And I have come back after educating a few people about this. Because at my workplace, I asked a couple of young people and they are all delightful young people that you had to have a young person with you when you go out and they're like, we work very hard in our offices there's so much of long drive home and we'll get a weekend off and we would like to have fun and we wouldn't know how to integrate a young person you know, when we say a young person I don't take it as an offensive statement I completely understand where they come from. So it is a clear zero on tense situation where I mean where they already have less time to themselves and here I am, you know, making them toy with the idea that you know, you're saddled with another person with whom you will have to strike a conversation probably look after probably you know behave in a certain way because you know, you role modeling for that person so even before the situation happens as we go on tend to look for spaces where I'll find acceptance you and I are not going to find acceptance with 100 people we meet Savitha some people might think we are weird, some people might think we you know, they don't like us so it's fine, we'll move away we'll move in our serious you know, circles of comfort, so I need to find those. And I need to make sure that patch I gives a decent kind of inclusion. I mean, I should not look at perfect inclusion. And I don't want people to go back and lighted as long as they're giving bid to do make it a two way situation we have fun.

Thank you know, so for now, are you studying now

I'm doing a multimedia course. I love making vectors on Photoshop. And I also love making animations.

Nice, nice, nice. This is this on your own that you are studying. Are you doing it online? Yes,

I'm starting multimedia course online.

Wonderful, wonderful. And new, I have a question for you again. So instead of several therapists and educators play a key role in the success of individuals with disabilities, so what insights and suggestions do you have to share with them in hindsight, based on your experience?

I mean, honestly, they know their job. And as caregivers, I don't think we need to give them you know, I feel that I know my bit as a caregiver and an occupational therapist knows is a expertises, older sensory integration person, as a parent, I should not first of all, as a parent, I should not be so overwhelmed that I should, I should, you know, not be able to have that implicit faith I need to have. Well, I confess, I have gone through that stage sometimes because basically app's over, because I want to do my best, right? So I have not shared it with any outside person. So so first of all, there needs to be a transparency, I think. So the therapist or the export has to be able to convey what he or she has in mind, whatever intervention, and what is the expected outcome, and the parent needs to have that support? Only then it is possible. Yeah. I know, like, collaboration is so key, right? Yes, you got the right. Collaboration. And that collaboration is basically all based on transparency, you know, you know, why this tie, you know, this tight pressure, and you know, why this light pressure and you know, why, you know, those LEDs in the room and, you know, like us, you know, then you need to also I need to have it stored about the therapists who are smarter than me now. Now, I've been going to therapist for one month, I don't see any difference. Ask the therapist, When will I see the difference app that faith? So that consistency has to be there, you know, that consistency from our side? And following through following through you know, and so, yes, because here is a domain which I have not studied, here is a domain that export knows, right? While I told you also in an informal formal chat, that I have been more or less doing everything, but that you know, things are things which are very specialized, and this special export knows how it needs to be done and where the intervention comes in. So probably when I have transparency on, I need to wait this much. And then I need to support and one thing I always say, Kavita, if I am, you know, ready to give several interventions to my child, that somewhere I need to knit them together? You know, that when when we study, we say when is when I go out and talk in my trainings, I talk about an integrative approach. What is that integrated approach? So five to six sensory integration time straight? Or is occupational therapy time? Fine? What did I do in that hour in between whatever skills my child picked up, you know, I applied. So that's very important. So sometimes there will be situations where the child is able to do such a such such such thing, very perfectly notice setup or sensory integration setup, but not at all, because I forgot to generalize it. I am a big believer in generalization. I'm a big believer in offering generalizations and variations to each skill. That's my philosophy as an educator that, you know, actually it's, you know, all pervasive and all my trainings and all the, you know, content writing that I do, because if I teach a concept, or this is yellow on a table top activity, showing a mango, which is not even yellow in the first place, most of the times that I have not gone out into the environment and shown six shades of yellow to my child, even the simplest possible example I'm giving you because, you know, I didn't so much with the pre primary content writing. So the therapist does the code work, I need to generalize that I need to generalize it as early as possible in a variety of situations in a variety of settings. And I need to integrate the therapies together. So instead of waiting and watching for some discernible change to happen, I carry the skill thought forward in my own way, I think that really helps with that as my understanding as an educator and also as a mom, you know, imaginal acts of scale. Once you offer a variation to that scale, then it works. Yeah.

This funnel This is for you. What goals do you have for the future? Should I know earlier in one of your interviews at 20, you said that you wanted to be a model for the rest of your life. Does that still hold true? So where do you want to be 10 years

from Mumbai and live in Mumbai, and I'm going to work as a modeling carrier. And I'm going to buy a motorcycle in Mumbai.

Well, particular about moving to Mumbai. That's good. You're very clear. For now where you want to be.

That's for boring.

No boring New Delhi, huh?

Yeah, yes. I will never tell you no, actually kind of sits down on his laptop. And he checks rents, right?

Yes. houses on rent and also flats for rent in Mumbai. He started

with a penthouse came down to an apartment and it has come down to a one room platinum. Why not? Right. So in the bargain trader has understood that you get to live somebody is in some place, because you have to connect with those with his real estate agents.

He th t agency, I'm

sorry. That's the right words. And then he knows the value. The salary credited message is very important for him because he's saving money, but doesn't want to spend money at all. So he said, I don't want to spend money on him because he needs isn't that amazing.

Really understand the value of money when we start making?

You don't know that I don't need clothes as No, no. I think we can buy a t shirt and be like, I'm not paying for it, if you are paying for it. So I think it's fine. Yeah. And he wants to live in. He wants to live in Mumbai, independently, just like

Yes. To live in Mumbai, independently. My sister. My sister lives in Australia, and she had used to live in Sydney, her favorite city because I only liked it Sydney skyline, la peros neutral Bay, Opera House. And Luna Park also

is a part of Sydney.

Sydney, Norris, so you know these are so he she is a very big for other options, a prototype of a role model. So if product teams that like her, she has her own beautiful studio apartments, and you know visualizes all that. And I think it's working towards that wonderful. So I just keep telling him the products since you want to live independently. The scale is essential.

And I'm also going to work with Thomson Reuters. And also still study from Ames media. When I'm going to live in Mumbai. He doesn't want to quit his multimedia learning. No, I don't want to quit. He loves it. Yeah, I love working with Ames media by studying graphic designing forever and ever. So

I have never, you know, been able to tell if you should do this. It's always okay. This is how you should juggle. I mean, I don't even have to take so again Savitha so since he has to figure it out, and he does he has a fitness class early in the morning for one and a half hours. Then a quick shower he has I mean he has a choice not to do that class you know, because he's already walking and he's done. A decent amount of rain graphic designing is pretty good at that. Then he has a class from 10 to one okay and so in the morning is done one and a half hours of fitness a quick shower then 10 to one is his class, then a quick lunch. Then he logs on to an eight hour shift for work getting logged off and then it's half an hour of news on weekends. See like that's why I said work hard play. Yeah, you can see just has fun and chills. That's the life he's chosen for himself. So that's that's fine.

Yeah, yeah.

So he likes being busy and occupied and challenging themselves. So if it works, nothing like it. Okay.

Okay, I know personally, you have a lot happening today and you have your schedule. Thank you for staying late for us. I just have a few fun questions to ask you. What are your favorite songs and favorite musicians?

And my favorite, my favorite singer artists are under near Bella, Tara, retake attorney, and difficulties Oza integers and also to some yaki via their favorite tell her because you Nikhil D'Souza is my favorite Mumbai singer. Because Because Because I'm from Mumbai that's and also Hey Catan he also sang that song please my mind and also Tara also sang wrong number.

I am not familiar with the songs so will you share with me we got

to assume your key also Sun sunlight and also my favorite singers that I listen to a nerdy backcountry radio. We're not Dean Lewis. He's from Sydney, Australia, and he sang stay awake. And we're voting EDM artists and my favorite EDM artists are are made van Buuren Tiesto Hardwell and Martin Garrix

Hey music went night today full blast even tomorrow because he listens to music on weekends. It's like well past midnight. Yeah. Yeah, okay today's sad. Also, right now, when the music and the musicians come to India, all these international Porto

attended virtual supersonic marshmallows and Bernina we DJ Snake, sunburn arena with Wiz Khalifa Sun burner in arena with Dimitri Vegas and like Mike and also sunburn arena with Alan Walker all concerts have attended

nice so you have to share this list with me okay.

It's absorbed Minister exhausted but Rana manages to ignore the crowds and the

sounds yeah managed to ignore the crowds in this town and be focused on the music. That is awesome. So

when your interest is so high on the music, the other things are tolerable.

Or you you can just shut them out,

shut them out. You have a strategy that works. So for now, what is the movie that you love?

binge watch Netflix movies on Sundays.

Any particular movie you like?

And my favorite movie is del chata. Hey, because it is short in three of my favorite cities Mumbai Goa and Sydney and these are my favorite cities

of course okay you

can now go to the My favorite three cities because

it's shorter these three favorites.

Okay, watched you don't Netflix and Amazon Prime videos, so Okay.

I have to see that movie again. It's been a while

and I used to see the marbles and it's all fortunately there aren't man passed away. Yeah, yeah. Tom Cruise is very inspiring. And I like action films and science fiction films.

Too and Okay, okay. Okay.

From our if you could make one wish to a genie, what would that be? And

my wish will be shifting to Mumbai and living in Mumbai.

Well, I wish that for you too. Since you wanted so badly. Who is your favorite teacher for now? And why?

Did sir he teachers? Yeah, games speed. Yes. Yeah, it teaches them graphic designing shutter. Shutter which sir? He has an online multimedia class. No. Animations? Yes.

And what are some places that you love to visit?

Yeah. And I like to visit go and Sydney when I'm going to live in Mumbai.

Okay, okay. You're very clear about that. Okay. Any final takeaways for our listeners? I know.

We all have a superpower. We need to believe in the superpower that we have. A Kobe's also somebody Chainsmokers and alumnium feature Lennon Stella Stella and it was played in retro vision remix during one mega may takeover

is also a song where she's given you the dye history about the song. So you said what is your takeaway? So there's a takeaway, right? So he he told you the takeaway and also told you that taiko is a song.

Oh, is that right? Okay. Okay. Okay. So,

The Chainsmokers and lnM feature Lennon, Stella, and it was played in retro vision remix, because we both

knew about this super power thing, because when Tasha and I sat down with prenup and he entered his team and explained autism to him. That is a narrative we used when We all have our superpowers. I described mine, my daughter described hers and we describe to another superpower. Right? So since Rana has just told you about Dil Chahta Hai because he's now wanting to shift to Mumbai, he's a big fan of Marvel movies. And we haven't missed any. And my

favorite Marvel character character is Thor because he has a hammer. Ah,

so, okay, so whenever we say Marvel movies, we also see that the Marvel heroes, the superheroes who have superpowers, and who run out admires, and, you know, adores also sometimes make mistakes, I also sometimes cry also sometimes say, Well, I failed in this sentence. So that becomes a very nice opportunity for three of us to discuss that. If I am blessed with a superpower, perhaps superpower, I can still make mistakes, I can still fail, I can still be in a situation where I face you know, you know, challenges. So that is something that's really helping us. So for us, this, you know, superpower story has been very amazing. So, you know, because we wanted to talk to parents about autism. And you know, so we all you know, discussed our own superpowers. Mine is that I can multitask so much. My daughter's is that, you know, she she described her own superpower to pronoun, and then try now superpower is this. And see problem is now aware of all the implications of a superpower. Like I said, thanks to all the beautiful Marvel movies that are coming along the way one of them even died, like Brennan just told you, he was totally certain mood a trainer or an Ironman. So, or they sometimes fail or they mess up, you know, and then they talk about it. And then you know, so and they go back and forth in time, you know, if you have seen Marvel movies, and Pranav is a big fan, and he sees all of them. So that has become an excellent backdrop for his strength night to build on this narrative. And we really believe in and I know, it's our narrative, and it might not work generally. But I guess, by normalizing challenges, by projecting them as something not formidable something that is, you know, is bound to happen by taking all the situations and this problem is very zen like, Savitha he never gets angry. He never, you know, he's very polite, his very,

yeah, when the I'm not enraged, never enraged, right.

So all these things happen when you have learned to resolve a lot of things, right. So I feel that the real implications of the superpower is your ability to resolve your ability to accept your ability to try hard, your ability to reinvent yourself, you know, and like, pranas favorite thing, I found a solution to to be able to say that in every situation, right? So that is how we see it. Right? That's so

beautiful, and so helpful to so many, so many of us to hear these things for our lives. Everybody

has, you know, we all have found our own little ways, you know, that worked for us that that worked very well for us, and we wouldn't change things. Anyway, for any of us

so much. And I knew for being with

a delightful, delightful conversation. And of course, what we need. All of us is cheerleaders, like for Pranaam, you already know the family who has been our cheerleader through, you know, of Renault's childhood, and through his teams, you know, now they are, you know, in your vicinity in America, and that made all the difference, you know? Yeah. And we all need to find our own gurus and our own spaces and believe in the God who believes in you. It's as simple as that find your own spaces and cohorts and find your own, you know, groups of people who will start from there. And then you know, then look at the bigger pictures. Absolutely, absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you, Savitha. Thank you for having us. Good night. Good night, good night. Good night

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